Masala Democracy

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Re: Umair`s posts

Since we are exchanging Russian sayings, heres another one for you. Minister of War Stolypin (sp?) described Russia under Czar Nicholas II during WWI thus: ``The true tragedy of Russia is that it is an autocracy without an autocrat.`` Nicholas II was probably the most decent man to have ruled Russia in the past several hundred years. He was also the most irresolute and feckless. So, the true tragedy of Pakistan is that it is an autocracy without an autocrat.

BTW, to all you professional patriots and Arab-wannabees out there who keep bleating on about baa-baa black sheeps running away from Pakistan, check out this story:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/south_asia/newsid_1028000/1028026.stm


Turns out that 2/3 of Pakistanis surveyed want to leave Pakistan to look for work elsewhere and half of these do not want to come back! I had no idea that Pakistan had so many baa-baa black sheeps! I feel quite in the majority.

Democracy in India is a hollow shell

Mr. Arthur Sebastian Bonner notes author and journalist fees that the idea of euologising

India as the biggest democracy in the world was a myth. He has edited a book, Democracy in India: A Hollow Shell,

along with Kancha Ilaiah and Suranjit Kumar Saha (American University Press ; 1994). This book exposes

Indian democracy. It has contributions from Asgar Ali Engineer on secularism and Kancha Ilaiah on the

Dalit movement in Hyderabad. There are also articles on RSS` activities in Madhya Pradesh, the growth

of the BJP, the growth of the Dalit movement over the years and a comparison of racism in the U.S.

and casteism in India. There is also an article on the anti-liquor movement by the women of

Andhra Pradesh.

He feels that democracy is a hollow shell in India because caste masks it. He says ``Most people, academics

in particular, deny what I believe is the reality. It is caste that determines everything in India. And that

is a real bane. Democracy is used as a mask by the leaders to cover up many things. They talk about democracy

all the time. Democracy in India cannot copy the European system. There has to emerge a democratic structure

that is sui-generis - that which suits India.``

The voter turnout info in Indian elections is available from the Election commission website :

e.g.

http://www.eci.gov.in/infoeci/key_stat/keystat_fs.htm

The average turnout after 3 phases of voting was

58%.

-arun gupta

The figure of $800 million as the cost to Pakistan of the Kargil fight is from the following URL; the first paragraph is quoted.

http://www.dawn.com/daily/19990925/op.htm#2

Kargil: question of responsibility

By Babar Sattar

BECAUSE of the secrecy and deliberately induced confusion that shrouded the Kargil operation, it is not easy to play down who was actually responsible for the mayhem. The government should not have exhibited the slightest whiff of complacency after a misadventure that claimed the lives of nearly 400 professional Pakistani soldiers, cost the national exchequer over $800 million, projected Pakistan as a transgressor using subversive military strategies to settle a bilateral dispute with India.

re: zabed

``I know one mariam ispahani who was proud of ispahani`s so called love and contribution towards Bangladesh. I don`t think these Ispahanis are bangladeshi at all thugh and here u have shown your true color by supporting Pakistan and worst still its army!!!!!!!!``

zabed - hahaha!!! I don`t think you have a clue about what I am proud of. People who know me, know I shout out ``SOUTH ASIAN tolerance`` and ``Religious Tolerance`` all the time!!! Let`s just say I am a Patriotic South Asian. I cannot speak for others who share my last name... we are all entitled to our different opinions. As you might be experiencing insecurity problems, check out my web site for a broader perspective... www.ispahani.org

=mariam ispahani=

utterly forgettable article. does chowk publish any garbage that anyone throws at it? maybe some screening is necessary.

PU Li #15

Things are not bed of roseses on the wrong side of the border indeed



ELECTION 99

Violence against Christians on the rise: archbishop

Josy Joseph in New Delhi

Violence against Christians and their institutions have increased

immediately after the recent Lok Sabha election, Archbishop Alan de

Lastic said in New Delhi while demanding that Year 2000 be declared the

Year of Christ.

``We deeply regret that the vicious campaign has been aggravated in

recent months. There has also been a rash of violent incidents in

Gujarat, Rajasthan and Punjab, among other areas, immediately after the

elections. We are sorry that instead of condemning these actions, some

senior leaders of the Sangh Parivar have chosen to aggravate the

situation,`` he asserted in a written statement.

He also demanded that ``prompt action should be taken against those

responsible for the hate campaign and the violence against the community

in the last two years``.

Claiming there was ``some sort of discrimination`` in the last BJP

government`s refusal of the Christian community`s demand, de Lastic

said, ``The community also expects the government to act on its demand to

declare 2000 AD as the Year of Christ, who was born on the very soil of

Asia.``

He also took on right-wing groups, saying their demands for an apology

from Pope John Paul II during his November 5-7 visit to India are

unjustified.

``They have chosen the occasion of the visit of the Holy Father, Pope

John Paul II, a revered international personality, to launch a

mischievous and systematic propaganda constructed on half-truths, lies

and disinformation. These attempts vitiate the atmosphere on the eve of

a historic visit, and threaten to tarnish the good name of the country

known for its hospitality,`` he said.

The Archbishop called upon Prime Minister Atal Bihari Vajpayee to ``take

necessary action to prevent anything that would mar the environment of

amity in the country``.

He also called on the new government not to ``affect changes in education

and social policies which could be seen by minorities, the working class

and underprivileged groups as an erosion of their rights``. There is a

special responsibility on the prime minister, the archbishop said, ``as

head of government, and on the constituents of the National Democratic

Alliance, to reassure minorities and other groups on issues of law and

order, justice and development.``

He said there are several long-pending demands of the Christian

community for changing some laws. ``The most important among them are the

restoration of full rights to Dalit Christians, and urgent legislation

on laws relating to Christian marriages, divorce, adoption and

inheritance. The community has suffered much in the delay on these

issues,`` he said.

On the papal visit, he said the head of the Roman Catholic Church is

expected to have an hour-long meeting with leaders of various religions

during his visit to New Delhi.

Meanwhile, the All-India Catholic Union, the main body of lay Catholics,

said it was deeply concerned about the ``statements by senior ministerial

colleagues of the prime minister`s Bharatiya Janata Party that the BJP

has not disowned its Hindutva agenda``.

``Such encouragements, we fear, are directly responsible for encouraging

the spate of anti-Christian violence that has been reported from

Gujarat, Rajasthan and Punjab, among other states, in the wake of the

NDA returning to power after the general elections.``

John Dayal, national secretary of the AICU, said the Gujarat state

government has ``once again been silent``INSENSITIVE,INTOLERANT &UNAFFECTED!!!!!

Asmaan (reply#7) wrote:

``Also, one more thing about numerical information. macgupta has mentioned different figures than the one I have listed. Maybe he is correct, but I have heard 40% electorate vote from government workers in India. Perhaps effective analysis of numbers is not yet possible; Nawaz Sharif had withheld much of the information regarding the operation?``

Neil, I have one question: How can Nawaz Sharif withold information on Indian elections?!

Results were available at the Election Commission website(very detailed) throughout the counting period. And I mean the Election Commission of India! You needn`t have talked to ``government workers`` in India just to find out this.

Ashish

Mr Neil Aggarwal,

When you write something please atleast check once before posting your stuff on the net.

These are some of the ``lies`` your post contained.

1) 40% participation in the elections.

Sorry to break your happiness but the atcual % is way above 55%.

2)1 billion/day kargil operation

Do you really think any sane person would accept your figures? You must be really dreaming.

3)Pakistan will default with less than 100 Billion in Foreign Exchange.

Am I smoking ganja are what? Pakistani foreign Exchange is around 1.2 billion dollars. Do you plan to say since $1.2 billion is less than $100 billion your figures are correct.

And this is one reading. If you read carefully your post would contain as many lies as the number of lines in your post.

Take Care

The errors in the article are apalling, the numbers are wrong, even your detail of political alignment is wrong. Communist are not part of the ruling alliance, they are yet another block.

Come up with something more provocative, and relevant to the chowk, like war hysteria has helped the `land slide` of vajpaye, now the distruction of mosques will start etc.

re: Zensufi

I know one mariam ispahani who was proud of ispahani`s so called love and contribution towards Bangladesh. I don`t think these Ispahanis are bangladeshi at all thugh and here u have shown your true color by supporting Pakistan and worst still its army!!!!!!!!

Neil - Uncalled for remarks about Sonia Gandhi whatever she is or isn`t as a politician. I don`t see why you have such a problem with a foreign-born person?! How many years does it take a non-desi to live and love a desi country and finally be accepted by the desis??? Heck, your name doesn`t exactly sound 100% desi either! My statistics professor taught me to question all statistics... ``Who did the study, who sponsored the study, where did they get the sample, etc?`` Thus, I question your data.

As for the point of your article... yes, viva democracy in India and in Pakistan! But who is going to command the masses when the ones feeding it democracy are the ones full of corruption and unkept promises? I do not support martial law, but I support the Pakistan army... they are the only ones who bring some organization to a repeatedly disorganized nation with a fragile infrastructure!

=mariam ispahani=

58% of the eligible voters voted in the current elections, according to preliminary estimates of the Elections Commission. This is vastly greater than the 34% of the US electorate that voted in the 1980 election giving Ronald Reagan the ``landslide`` victory. That same Ronald Reagan of course called the Nicaraguan Sandinistas who had received 90% of the total votes cast (with 98% of the electorate voting) unrepresentative of the Nicaraguan people. I am sure you concur in Reagan`s opinion.

Assam, Kashmir, and all the states of the Northeast account for 28 of the 545 seats in the Parliament, 5%. Even if all of these seats are suspect because of election violence, that is still statistically insignificant.

Neil, you have been fed a steady diet of bullshit, not hamburgers. Now, go vote for that cokehead George W.

Also, one more thing about numerical information. macgupta has mentioned different figures than the one I have listed. Maybe he is correct, but I have heard 40% electorate vote from government workers in India. Perhaps effective analysis of numbers is not yet possible; Nawaz Sharif had withheld much of the information regarding the operation?

Again, I hope that this does not detract from the content of the article, which is that we need to replace our too-feudal political psychology behind us and embrace democracy, especially so that it alleviates social ills.

-Neil

My readers,

Ibn sahib rightly pointed out that my article contained a misprint. The correct figure that Pakistan spent was around $1 million/day, according to the Times of India. Please excuse the oversight (not embarassing at all -I would hate to spread misinformation) and I will try to get the date cross-referenced as soon as possible. Regardless, this does not change the content of the article.

I do refute that English is an Indian language. Elite Indians may have acculturated themselves to English, but it remains an imperialist language. It depends on your viewpoint, like it or not. Colonialism, whether it is poltically Mughal or European, or economically American, is exploitation, and therefore wrong. I believe Sonia Gandhi lost because her ``European-ness`` estranged her. I don`t know much about Janet Jagan in Guyana, but in India, the majority of the voters could not identify with Sonia Gandhi because she has remained distant until this election.