Compilation of Opinions on the Military Takeover in Pakistan

every person have some qualities any person can specialize in one field not more than one field a person who is leading army can not lead nation ok he is leading nation than he can`t run economy army and economy are two different things the person who is sitting in two boats can go far but not as good as in one. all of that mr.general don`t become good for nothing for nothing

I have some important questions on an issue that don`t seem to have been addressed in this forum. I will be interested in getting some answers from interested people.

The Kargil operation is considered to be a blunder by any impartial observer. The roots of the current coup in Pakistan can be traced back, at least partly to Kargil.

So my questions are?

Who masterminded the foolish military adventure called Kargil?

Who was the person who got Pakistan out of the mess called Kargil?

Did this general undertake the Kargil adventure with the full knowledge of the political establishment? Transcripts of leaked telephone conversations cast some doubts that this really was the case. If he did not take the political establishment into full confidence, shouldn`t he have been fired (and put in prison) long back?

Wasn`t this the general who was opposed to the Lahore peace process and was not part of the entourage to receive the Indian PM (to show his displeasure)?

Was this general the same one who later sabotaged the Lahore peace process by engineering Kargil?

It takes vision and courage to make peace and stupidity to make war. What makes you think the present military leader has vision and courage and is not stupid ?

If it was this general who was responsible for Kargil, why do you feel his ruling the country will do much good?

Was the deposed prime minister ever stopped from taking the correct steps by the military?

Can one cite examples (from history) of military rule that has been good for a country? What is Pakistan`s past experience in this regard?

IF this general acted to save Pakistan, why did he have to wait till he got fired from his job?

I would like to end my questions with an analysis of my own. Whoever engineered Kargil was a dimwit. If it is this same dimwit who is now ruling a country, it is going to be a disaster in the long run. Short term, things will look rosy, but just wait and see. A military dictatorship runs without vital checks and balances that ONLY a democratic setup can provide. The correct path is to make peace and reduce expenditure on the Army. A general ruling the country will only increase military spending by not making peace. Time alone will tell if my analysis is correct. Your answers to my questions will be sincerely appreciated.

Regds.,

BR

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This is response to AmmarurRahman Khan.

Why are you so much against westernized intellectuals. They have a very valid point.

Throughout the history of Pakistan, Islamist have supported dictatorship in the name of Islam. Gang rape and killing of Bengali`s were justified not by westerners, but by Islamist like Jamat Islami and their writer Altaf Hussain Qureshi.

You are so much against corruption. But when 22 families accumulated the wealth in Ayub`s regime by same means and Bhutto took over their industries for the same reason you are propagating, Islamist did not Pardon Bhutto for that sin.

I have no objection to topple NS, because he was playing with democracy. And off course he was not the star of eye of westerners but Islamist.

So I am in favor of toppling of Nawaz Sharif Government, not because our GREAT ARMY is going to save Pakistan. I don`t expect that feat to happen by our Generals, who are pretty much beureucratic and have no clue about the people`s aspiration. I am only in favor of Pervez Musharraf toppling of undemocratic Government and Government should go back to people in a new constitutional framework where the star of the eye of Generals cannot play again in the name of democracy. It is only that ARMY HAS BEEN BITTEN BY THE SAME SNAKE WHICH IT HAS NURTURED.

Tell me why was the first Government of Benazir toppled. Tell me why was IJI under Nawaz Sharif recived massive support from army.

To put it lightly, Army has raped Pakistan. Only positive role is that it killed the snake it nurtured for so long because it was going to bite itself.

This is in response to article by Neelish.

On the one hand, you are right that our army did not play a very positive role in Pakistan history.

But on the other you are forgetting that our neighbour India is a very treacherous and cunning country. History of Pakistan is a testimony to this. It has never accepted Pakistan. If you are of the opinion that Pakistan should not in the first place be created, that is a different matter. Just cede to India.

But if you are of the opinion that creation of Pakistan had a solid background, then we have to defend it. That means either we have to rule it ourselves or let it be ruled by others.

India, captured two states which joined Pakistan. Hyderabad and Junajadh on the pretext that majority of population is Hindu. But when it came to Kashmir, they invoked secularism for it to remain part of India in gross disregard to democratic principles.

Now India thinks, China is his rival and all of India`s military strategy is according to that, but it has fought one war with China and rest with Pakistan.

So defence spending, Nuclear capability are just to counter threat mainly from India.

The question is military should rule or be subjugated to Civilian authority.

I don`t think any leader can be so foolish as to leave the defence of country behind, ultimately leading to economic subjugation.

All the neighbours of India like Bhutan, Nepal, Sikkim etc are testimony to this.

There is one area of economic difficulty of pakistan in which india can provide significant help, it is one of those areas that can be called mutually beneficial. The independant power producers, IPP, led by HUBCO , have been provided sovereign guarentees by pak govt, in the case of hubco, they have invoked this guarentee and are demanding 400 million dollars.

The essential problem is that with the declining economic growth, electricty demand is less tha anticipated, and there are no buyers. India could buy this electricity, last negotiations in this area was called off whem WAPDA was run by the military, with the alleged argument that indians will use the electricity to produce bombs.

In any case, 500MW of hubco power is negligible compared to the 50,000MW capacity in india, but still a fourway agreement with hubco, world bank, pakistan and india would help to resolve.

400 million dollars is a significant amount, when looked at in the context of the much talked about IMF tranche of 250 million to `save` pakistan from bankruptsy.

Al-Muhajiroun:

You stated, ``Let the Muslims through the general assembly of the U`lama (Juristic Islamic scholars) elect a brave Caliph``

These Ulema you refer to cannot even get along with each other, how the hell do you expect them to run the country. An Islamic nation does not require a group of Ulema to run it. It requires a collective effort from all the individuals of the country (Muslim and non-Muslim). Ulema should only exist in a consulting capacity. The only time they should be given any control over national policy, is if they get voted in. In Pakistan, despite the influence of the militant factions of the religious parties, the so called, ``Ulema`` have never been, and hopefully will never get voted into power. And I thank Allah for that. It is unfortunate that due to the lack of, ``Ijtehad`` being practiced in current day Islam, the term, ``Juristic Islamic Scholar`` has become an, oxymoron. These Ulema need to educate themselves first before they aspire for leadership positions.

Chowk staff:

Interesting articles and thanks for compiling different articles in one archive.

I would like to make a request/ suggestion. Somehow you should have a mechanism of checking the integrity of the articles you receive. The final article called, ``Khalifah for Pakistan`` does not sound very authentic. It sounds planted and I don`t want to point fingers to any group too obviously...but it really does not sound like it`s coming from a Muslim. Whoever took the painstaking time to write it and project a certain image, has done injustice to her/ himself for it is very obviously fake. It`s unfortunate that you decided to give it weight...I understand that the author has left contact information but it sounds like too much of an effort to sound authentic.

Anyway, just an observation.

This is not quite the correct place for this question, but here goes -- an Indian newspaper

(www.tribuneindia.com)

reports that the new Pakistani government is investigating ``the leak of the tape of a conversation between the then army chief, Gen Pervez Musharraf, and Chief of General Staff Lt Gen Aziz during the Kargil crisis to the Indian Government.``

If true, this would mean that the tape was not a fake. However, I am not able to find confirmation of the probe in Pakistani newspapers.

-arun gupta

http://www.economist.com/editorial/freeforall/current/index_as6676.html

FIGHT THE OCCUPATIONAL ARMY OF DISMISSED GENERAL MUSHARRAF.

I am a firm believer of democracy. Power for the people and for the people. A dismissed army general had opted to revolt and over throw a democtratically elected government. An offense punishable by death penalty under the constitution of Pakistan. I believe it is time that Pakistanis react and protest against the ills of dictatorship. Pakistani`s will have to fight their war of independence against the army of traitor Musharraf; an army thtat cannot defend the country but is always ready to conquer its own country. The morale of the army is reflected in the announcement of the traitor announcing withdrawal of troops from the indian borders. Is that for the country, no it is to win Indian support. If democartically elected government does that, then it would have been labled as treason. The corrupt and illegimate ruler is in place with supreme authorities but their fate is written on the wall. We Pakistanis will have to fight for our independence from the occupational army of dismissed general Musharraf; the traitor. This time the traitor should not be burnt but hanged to death under the constitution of Pakistan alongwith seven others. PAKISTAN PAINDABAD.

I have just one thing to say. Whether or not the coup was the only way out of the situtsaion in which Pakistan unfortunately found itself is not my province [and I suspect many of those professing an opinion on the subject are not very qualified to judge either] but what has distressed me is the speed with which everyone has turned on Nawaz Sharif. However autocratic and inefficient the man, the principles of democracy should come first. That Gen. Musharraf felt it was necessary to pay lip service (at least) to democracy on his broadcast but no Opposition leader could find it in himself to say that `yes, Nawaz was bad, but a democratic way out was preferable` is a sad reflection on Pakistani politicians, politics and maturity as a democracy. And regardless of what all of you are fooling yourself into believing, it is a fact that a military coup is not nor has ever been a good start to a demcratic experiment.

New Delhi

It is true that Mr Sharif`s rule was a disaster for Pakistan. But what is the guarantee that the cure will be any better than the disease? There is a saying that ``power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely``. If Sharif`s majority in parliament could make him so corrupt, Gen. Musharraf`s power is that much more absolute. One can only hope that this old adage is proved wrong in this case.

I agree that the army`s takeover was the only short term solution available at this time. But in the long run, isn`t the army part of the problem itself? If the economy of pakistan is deteriorating, it is because there is a fundamental flaw in assuming that one can divert as much of one`s resources to the army as Pakistan has done, and still educate its people, house them, feed them and keep them healthy. These are however ultimately the factors which make economies grow and become strong.

Indeed, maybe someone can clarify how exactly the army is expected to achieve the grand goals that it has identified for itself? None of the ground realities have changed. Corruption by itself is hardly enough to explain the situation that Pakistan finds itself in today, and that is the only condition which might have improved. The only long term solution for both India and Pakistan lies in peace in the sub-continent so that we can use our resources more productively then fighting each other in remote Kargil. But how is a force whose relevance comes through propogating the fear of war, expected to try and make peace with the ``enemy``?

After a long period of distress, any change will, but naturally, generate optimism. That is exactly what is happening right now in Pakistan. Whether or not this optimism will survive the honeymoon period that the army is receiving right now, is the crucial question.

-narain

..its not a question of How Rich Nawaz Sharif and Co was before or after he Became Prime Minister...Its simply a matter of priorities...I read some where that ..A TRADER..is the worst Man to become a Ruler...and he Seems to prove that thing..there are Many Many instances where he simply Put his and His clan`s interest before the interest of Pakistan..remember His CM of Punjabs Day when he blatanly voilated all norms of decency and fair play..Marriot Hotels episode and Changa Manga should be fresh in your mind..

..and all the SRO`s stuff its amazing what you can do when you are in REAL power..its common knowledge he and his cronies issused SRO`s for just ONE HOUR to get the bussiness advantages for their companies/bussiness....and suddenly we find a person who has an astronmical growth rate of more than 4000% I cannot confirm the exact growth rate..but it must be in the vincity of the above figure.. 2 or 3 Companies suddenly transformed into 30+ in a span of just 4 to 5 years...amazing.

and yet the argument was he has invested in Pakistan and not overseas and that good..

..conviently forgeting his source...which in more than one way pointed toward the Co-Ops Money of pensioners..Widows..and small time savers...their arguments ..I think it was Shabaz Sharif who said `` They deserved to be looted... they were after Interest and thats UnIslamic...``

what a logic..

..Then resently how can one forget...the dollar freeze after May28 ...Some one caught Mujim-ur-rehman brother of Saif-ur-rehman Red Handed ..in taking the dollars out of the Bank on that very fateful night...

..Now..State Bank clearly advised three..steps to be taken in extreme...

...yes freeze the dollar..

..But...Freeze the currency trade with it...

..and covert all the dollars at Rs 46/dollar in local currency..

...Invester and other will get a benefit of Rs 4 to 6 minummum as all the dollar purchased was at about Rs41 or Rs42..

...But they just picked the First one..that is Froze the dollar..and Made Hay when the sun shone.. and when they made a KIll...offered the currecy conversion at Rs46/dollar...by that time the dollar rate shot upto Rs 65..and every one felt really really cheated..

...Then who can forget the latest...Yes the suggar trade...with India..

....85% of the TRADE volume was conducted by the 4-5 Sugger Mills belonging to the First Family and their Friends..who sold sugger at RS 13/kg..to India...(their own people could not get it at RS20/kg at home ??)....and now for the kill.. they claimed a rebate of RS 4500/ton from the Govt of Pakistan for selling the sugger at a lower rate..and got that rebate too...

...Now this is serious..and I could be seriosly wrong...But DID the INDIANS stoped their sugger Payments?...and they Trade Kargill for It...???

...thats is the question..one should really seek answer for ...to determine their real loyality to Pakistan...I simply do not trust them...they are the Worst Form of Hypocrates...who..damaged the very Integrity of a Nation..in the community of Nation...Think...Not even China and Iran..were at their side during the whole delema..??

..It seems they has simply lost the credibility of Pakistan...for their...petty bussiness interests..????