Lahore is Bombay

Bina:

I would be the last to say that history doesn`t matter... of course history matters... but, how does it color our future is what I am talking about. As for the pain that is still lingering after partition... (side note: have you seen ``Earth``?)... the pain is quite real in my family... I`m not sure if that makes me want to continue the tradition of forcing people apart for the sake of identity. I am who I am, and I don`t really feel the need to have a country associated with me to make me feel like I have an identity. Of course, my background and the manner in which I was raised (and perhaps) exposed has much to do with that. I have very strong feelings of nationalism to a country I have only lived in for a few years... i am still very much a product of it...and do hold it very close to me. Yet, I cannot endorse more partition. My grandmother spoke of Banaras while sitting in Karachi, the same way I speak of Karachi sitting in Philadelphia. (if that makes sense). Forcing identity markers is not my idea of a `healthy` independance. I admire the work done by ``our forefathers and mothers`` in creating a state for Muslims - independance is a very very valuable thing. And much of why I do feel nationalistic has to do with the historic event - partition - and the efforts made by those people to have a separate nation. I`m not entirely sure I agree with the manner in which things were handled... but, I am still young, and naive in the ways of the world... perhaps in a few years I will come to realize the brilliance (or sense of having no choice) in how it was handled. Nations are not made up only of cultures... true enough. There are the finer nuances (as you point out) that create distinctions... but, my question then is... where precisely can we find that node at which the juncture between identity, politics, and nationalism lie...?

i would argue that such nodes, junctures, and points can be found within specific interactions where either of those concepts are challenged, questioned or reinstated. Within those processes, there are finer links that can be highlighted, in terms of the manner in which further chain reactions are forumlated...and they are very culture specific...and world view specific...hence back to my inital point of frame of reference being on utmost importance.

It does not bother me to see someone in Bombay and think he or she have more similarities... nor vice versa, i would hope. I try to bridge gaps to bring people together ...rather than trying to separate my identity based on a nation. i have many things that i attribute to the constituition of my ``identity``... as do most other people... it`s how you chose to identify yourself, and what motivates you ...

Your point about the difference in terms of how you see the same issue sitting in Pakistan vs. how you saw it when you were at undergrad here, is well taken, and illustrates my point beautifully. frame of reference. culture.



Playing devil`s advocate, I would, however, chose to question the validity of my stance, and question (to some degree) the validity based on the fact that I am not really a Pakistani (in a strict - passport sense), and hence, I have no right to assert such notions of nationalism and identity.

adaab arz-hai.

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

Uzma,

Excellent points, thanks for the clarification. Yes, that is how I feel. I wouldn`t call myself a super nationalist or a patriot, but I hate to think that there is no reason for our nation, that there are people out there (Pakistani and Indian!) who think that everything is the same simply because of food or clothing. To me that seems awfully simplistic and ignores the complexities and subtleties of both Indian and Pakistani culture, which grew from perhaps the same tree but has many different branches...

You know, when I was in college in the US, I was happy to find the similarities between Pakistanis and Indians. The bogeymen looked a hell of a lot like we did. That was great. But surely our differences can be celebrated and appreciated as well? Peace is all good, but we don`t have to lose our identity or culture in trying to achieve it, do we?

Look how viciously we turn on Indians or Pakistanis that we feel are giving up their identity in order to become more Western. Will the melting pot culture theory help us or harm us in the long run?

And I am very reluctant to euphemistically sweep under the carpet all the sacrifices that people of the past generations - Pakistanis and Indians - made during Partition. It feels a bit like a betrayal to both sides to say that history doesn`t matter.

What do you think?

Bina.

Bina:

apologies extended for the patronizing attitude. it was uncalled for. i stand corrected.

it has also become clear to me that our ``world views`` are a bit different. Yes, the Ganges flows in India, and the Indus flows in Pakistan... but the ``civilization`` (so to speak) spread over from north eastern afghanistan, across pakistan, and into northern india.

Be proud to be from the nation that houses the indus... but (perhaps... and it`s just my opinion)you may not be as justified in claiming heritage to a ``civilization`` that firstly, did not remain continuous (ie we did not come from them ... well, i know i didnt...) and secondly, that extends over into present day India.

i hope this was not seen as a direct attack on feelings of nationalism... i apologize...and respect your deep rooted feelings for your country. Unfortunately, I cannot agree to feel nationalistic for the same reasons.

of course there is then the indian who did not want to be called pakistani... ok. well, great. so we have more close-minded people infiltrating this beautiful earth ... you know, i am not entirely sure if that point was relevant... but, i guess it was to your main arguement, which, if im not mistaken, was that we should be proud of our heritage and stand apart from the rest of the world and not get mushed into thinking we are nothing more than an extention of india... ok, point well taken. once again, i would just like to point out that depending on your frame of reference, such things like identity, nationalism and culture have completely different meanings.

it seems like such an obvious point, but i find that we forget it often here on chowk.

adaab arz-hai.

Uzma:

``The ancient `civilizations` genrally have little to nothing to do with contemporary state lines. Culture, language and practice do cross lines - regardless of whom they were drawn by.`` I agree completely.

alireza:

``I wouldn`t be surprised if you wrote your ``pakistanis love indian films, music`` paragraph while humming to ``Sayonee.````

Do you maintain that what I wrote was incorrect then ?

``... a LOT OF Indian movies duplicate music from Pakistani artists in any case (perfect example: the scores of songs from Nusrat Fateh Ali Khan).`` Here`s where I refer you to your initial statement about ``...without providing relevant counter-information``. Andhra Pradesh alone produces over 300 movies per year. If you can prove that Indian Movies (in toto) borrow more than 1% from pakistani scores, I`ll write you a cheque for $1000. Care to take that up ? However copying of scores does`nt really count for borrowing of culture, does it ?

Bina:

``The Sufi culture, as evinced by the shrines and all that goes with it in Sindh (and other parts of Pakistan).``

Uzma has answered on that. There is a lot of Sufism in India too. I guess you know that.

Your last statement ``That`s all I can think of for now..`` says it all as far as I am concerned !

UR:

``You still have not explained what you mean by, ``ha-ratt.`` `` Lets forget it please !

UR, UR a strange fellow.You claimed to be an expert on siachen. Yet when I showed you the CIA map clearly showing 90% of the area falling to India as per the ``Northward extension`` clause, you say you don`t believe in CIA maps and that you know better than the Indian commanders. You claim to have spent time and effort studying Indian culture and yet say that ``I think the Pakistani culture is greatly influenced by the Islamic religion, which the Indian culture is not.`` If you really think that, then I regret to tell you that your years of study and effort on Indian Culture are as nought.

Lets go back to the beginning. My basic objection was to the statement that ``Indian culture`` was overwhelming Pakistan (culture). What should have been said (IMO) is ``Indian films and Music is overwhelming pakistan``. Pakistani Culture is a small subset of Indian Culture with the added trimmings of a mere 50 years. For a bengali or a south Indian a pakistani punjabi is indistinguishable from an indian punjabi.

soorya: Re: History. A small incident.

An year back, a pakistani colleague and myself got talking. I casually asked him what they study in history in pakistan. His mood changed. He said with some venom ``We learn the truth, unlike in your country``.

Why is it that people always use the word ``dear`` when they want to be anything but endearing? I have only ever been called ``dear`` online by people who think I need correcting (usually in some academic/religious/other area). I hate the tones of condescension that that word conveys.

Uzma,

Of course Sufis exist outside of Pakistan. Duh. But I was talking about the entire Sufi culture that exists in Pakistan... the shrines, the music, the particular religious practices, pirs fakirs etc etc... very Pakistani in nature. You wouldn`t see all of this going on in any part of the world in quite the same way as it does here.

And, Harappa and the Indus Valley civilization may only lie in Pakistan because of some lines drawn by some British in a drawing room... but the River Indus, I believe, would have more of an immediate geo-cultural-socio-political effect on the territory in which it was located. Since that territory later became Pakistan, I don`t see why we can`t claim it as part of our heritage.

If that is not a valid supposition, does that mean we get to claim the Ganges and all that goes with it as part of our cultural heritage? Because of the same lines drawn by those darned British?

Reminds me of a story I heard told once.

A Pakistani and an Indian were traveling on a bus. ``Are you Indian?`` says the Indian to the Pakistani.
``No, I`m Pakistani,`` replies the Pakistani.
``Indian, Pakistani, it`s all the same thing,`` says the Indian jovially. ``Our countries were one before the British. So, to me, you are Indian.``
``Well,`` says the Pakistani. ``If we`re all the same, does that mean that I can call you Pakistani?``
Well, the Indian was so incensed to hear this that he didn`t speak another word to the Pakistani and got off at the next stop!

Kind of a tongue in cheek story... but there is more to a country than just culture.

UR,

Here I go again with my queries...Are Indian Movies (which evoke much more interest than Hollywood movies) played in cinema halls in Pakistan ?

Re: Bina Reply #22:

Pakistan & Harrapa should not even be talked in the same breath. It just happens to fall in Pakistan`s boundary.

By the way, how do your history book talk about it. And also about the time between Harrapa & the Slave Dynasty ?

Re: Ras Reply #20

About time you moved to prose !!

-Soorya

Just because someone draws a line down the middle of a house does not mean the house gets divided. Try as one might the divided family has too much history and too much influence on members of both sides. The branches of one tree are always affected by whatever takes place on that tree. Why not just accept it. We are one and the same. India and Pakistan is the same because the people are the same, the culture is the same, the history is the same....

Quick note:

(just cos` I couldn`t resist...)

The ancient cultures of Harappa and the Indus Valley do not confine themselves to borders that were drawn by a few Brits in a living room...

The ancient `civilizations` genrally have little to nothing to do with contemporary state lines.

Culture, language and practice do cross lines - regardless of whom they were drawn by.

Sufi`s exist outside of Pakistan, my dear :)

As cultures continue to change, they have regional variations... the concept of ``nation`` is a convienient and passionate attempt to mobilize the masses... works brilliantly...

I am proud to be associated with Pakistan... and have feelings of nationalism...but, am also accutely aware that such feelings are situational and are created via historical processes. Culture is not a static phenomenon... neither are the ideas of the `collective`.

Perhaps the question should be best put as `what do you think Pakistan is?`... (you can substitute the name of the state with any other as well...) that will help you define what you are associating yourself with... geographical boundaries? cultures? religion?

I`ve overspent my stay here ...

adaab arz-hai.

There are a few things that we have that I think are *mostly * exclusive to our culture, and not shared with India:

The Sufi culture, as evinced by the shrines and all that goes with it in Sindh (and other parts of Pakistan). Offshoots include Nusrat Fateh Ali Khan and qawali music, Junoon (sufi rock), Abida Parveen etc. etc.

The Indus Valley and Harappa Culture, which is a large part of our historical heritage and defines what and who we are as a nation.

The tribal culture of the Frontier Province and the Northwest with their own unique brand of lifestyle, governance, and social code.

Our own art culture, with many local artists including Sadequain, Gulgee, and others...

That`s all I can think of for now...

Bina

i think its ridiculous to claim something solely as either indian or pakistani. both countries are too young to discount influcences that are pre-border.

and why would one want to? i love that i am south asian, not just pakistani or indian. the diversity and richness of the region is immense and beautiful..i wouldn`t want to choose only one to associate with.

rizvi.

Re: anarayan

Winston Churchill once said that in an argument, if one party just blabbers on without listening, and without providing relevant counter-information, they are what you can term idiotic fanatics.

I wouldn`t be surprised if you wrote your ``pakistanis love indian films, music`` paragraph while humming to ``Sayonee.``

Besides which, even if Pakistanis love songs from Indian movies, then do note that a lot of Indian movies duplicate music from Pakistani artists in any case (perfect example: the scores of songs from Nusrat Fateh Ali Khan).

Simple analysis: we both like things from across the border. Got it? Good.

anarayan: reply #19: You still have not explained what you mean by, ``ha-ratt.``

I have spent a lot of time and effort trying to understand the Indian culture. If you are really interested in Pakistani culture, you will need to spend the same amount of time learning about the Pakistani culture. There are a lot of differences (and similarities), believe me. I think the Pakistani culture is greatly influenced by the Islamic religion, which the Indian culture is not. But I do not have the desire or time to get into an argument with you, over that. If you consider the two cultures identical; well good for you.

I do agree with you that in geo-politics, culture is a more important than religion. However, I am not quite sure what geo-politics has to do in a discussion regarding Lahore and Bombay.

You are correct in stating that Pakistanis like Indian movies and music. I do not think Pakistanis scour Indian newspapers and magazines, however. Infact very few Pakistanis read Indian newspapers and magazines (except for magazines related to movies).

``One should not need a degree in psychology to figure out WHY ?`` I already answered this one. Pakistanis are interested in the good things that come out of India. If you have any other reasons, kindly state them.

Lahore is, was and remains Lahore.
Bombay is but Mumbai.

Ras

Re: UR Reply #: 18

UR:

``...over the past fifty years, Pakistan has added its own its own unique features to the Indian culture that it inherited.``

Can you please share some of the said unique features with us ?

``...and there are many differences as well.``

I hope you are not comparing the Pakistani culture in your Punjab to, say, the south Indian culture. IOW, you should compare east punjab to west punjab and then tell us the differences.

In geo-politics, culture is greater than religion. The formation of Bangladesh has proved that.

Pakistanis love Indian films, music. They scour our newspapers and magazines.India features prominently in any discussion on any topic in Pakistan.

One should not need a degree in psychology to figure out WHY ?

anarayan: reply #13: I think I figured out most of what you are trying to say. One part I could not decipher was when you stated, ``Look into your ha-ratt and answer yourself truthfully why UR fascinated by India.`` What exactly does, ``ha-ratt`` mean?

I think you are correct in saying that the Pakistani culture is an off-shoot of the Indian culture (which itself is a combination of many cultures brought in by the different people that moved to India and/or ruled over India). At the same time, over the past fifty years, Pakistan has added its own its own unique features to the Indian culture that it inherited. So there are many things which are common to both the Indian and Pakistani culture, and there are many differences as well.