IT Pie in the Sky?

Re: #29 Veeresh

Veeresh Ji,

Send me an e-mail: rajanjua@hotmail.com

Rab Rakha

Amir Janjua

re: kush

I agree with you that the current computerized system of reservations isn`t good either. There is an urgent need to go for an updated system (second generation upgrade). Especially in large cities. As usual, there seems to be a general good feeling among politicians about what improvements have been made. Only pressure from the public will get things moving again.

My only objection to your post was your statement that perhaps past systems were better. Updates are carried out in India only when they are absolutely essential. So most changes that have been brought about have actually improved things. The inefficient way in which the govt. goes about this does make it look like a ``hack`` rather than a genuine attempt to improve things.

Replies to replies:-

Nashat # 6: When I told my father that Gulzar Ahmed had passed away, he said that yes, he always thought Gulzar would go young . . . my father would now like to know an address to write to Gulzar`s family as also an address for the Baluch Regiment to claim his place as the seniormost alive Baluch officer, his full name being Lakhan Lal Malik, Captain in 1947.

UR # 14: I think very soon the IT scene will move to a borderless situation. If India or Pakistan cannot provide a good working atmosphere, then an IT company will simply charter a few jets and relocate in, say, Muscat. In fact one of the biggest in India already assured the IndGovt that this is what they would actually do if some nonsense Income Tax gibberish thrown their way was not withdrawn. What I am trying to say is that one reason the US is such a fertile ground is because they encourage new thought; if you look towards Asia you will see some of the Arab countries moving in that direction too, and providing the fertile ground as such too. Maybe country of origin will become irrelevant as cultures mix, if all we will do is come home to spend dollars in rupee land . . . and good or bad will find its definition regardless of colour. If we want to see IT in India and Pakistan prosper then we will have to become the government as the governments will not do anything except force us to Muscat, maybe.

Samina # 18: Thank you for the compliments, writing to me comes after a day of slog till 2AM and seeing the children sleep peacefully in a bedroom in India, when I could have easily stayed on in the US. Only one thing: Indians have made it in the IT field inspite and against every effort of the government, and let nobody tell you otherwise. There have been far-seeing individuals who have been lucky enough (for them and the country) to set a few things rolling which resulted in this movement. One of which was the easy smuggling allowed into India of chips and populated PCBs etc. Otherwise, left to the Government and the big powers, we would still be using Sinclair Spectrum ZX and Osborne-I. The other thing was that computers was a great thing for women in India to do while awaiting marriage and/or doing their BA, these are hard facts and I can expect a wail of protest, but that is how it was. ``Doing`` computers was surely better than sitting at home or ``doing`` a language or textile designing/fashion designing stuff. These women formed the backbone. In Pakistan too I think you will have to see that women across social barriers enter ``computers`` somehow, even if all they learn is word and secretarial skills at home to manage transcription services. Social empowerment follows economic empowerment or other way around, I don`t know, but both are OK, no? This is thought process for next article . . . thanks . . .

kush # 24: yes, you are correct. Denial of tangible information has been the bedrock of how society evolved in the sub-Continet, I don`t know, but how difficult is it to get a statement about your land from the patwari equivalent in Pakistan?

On middle-men oriented society, yes, that will change, but it will be resisted all the way. Watch the arrival of a ``Chief Controller and Director General of Cyberspace`` in India (or similar . . .) and watch them being discarded too. But they will try . . .

ASK # 25: Specifically on the Indian Railways computer system for passenger travel, about 94% of people buying tickets now go through this system. Sure, it gets tough to handle but I know the people, domestic Indians all, who brought this up from scratch. And it improves every time you go back to the ever-increasing number of counters, but so do the crowds.

Overall, what I meant in my article was that simple exposure to computers would reduce to a large extent the perception of a difference between our societies and the western world. More follows . . .

i am pasting a article that is not directly related to the subject matter here...but i think you guys will enjoy this piece i got from dawn on the unforeseen effects of information technology on ``uncivil`` karachi types. the author seems to be realy young and comfortably upper middle class:



Cyber Cafes serve it hot

By Anila Weldon

WE have three television sets in our house. All three have plenty of local and foreign television channel broadcasts to choose from. The TV in our main lounge is one that gets used the most. Every member of the family uses this lounge to watch television here during the day - and when I say ``all``, I mean everyone including the family servants.

My mother is very concerned about our male servant, Abdul, an 18 years old boy, wanting to sit and watch television while my favourite show, Ally McBeal is on. Mommy surely disapproves of Abdul getting to watch Ally dressed in her knee-length skirts, tight jeans, body-hugging T-shirts, kissing and hugging men while talking to them in the show. So, there is an unsaid rule in the family: None of us can switch to any foreign TV channels when Abdul is in the same lounge either for entertainment or for work.

It seemed a bit odd to me. I used to think, ``how long can mom protect these young male servants from reaching emotional puberty?`` I thought my mother was utterly conservative and could never get along with her on those lines.

Nevertheless, what I discovered recently changed my thoughts on the issue completely. Being a computer buff, I decided to do a write-up on Cyber Cafes. I spoke to a few people about it, got some shocking views on the reason behind the ever-growing popularity of these cafes mushrooming all around the city, and decided to pay some a surprise visit. It turned out that the only element of surprise in those visits was my own reaction to the alarming discoveries I made there!

What I had expected to see in the first such internet cafe (located near Tariq Road) was a group of young, educated people surfing the internet for a seemingly important project while enjoying the cliched cup-of-coffee to go with that workaholic mood. I had also expected to find some people chatting away on IRC chat channels, visiting web sites, e-mailing to friends and relatives, and what not.

However, what I saw instead was a bunch of middle-aged men from our Northern Areas (each one reminded me of Abdul) drooling over a half-naked picture of some Hollywood movie celebrity with a come-get-me smile on her face. There were about four of these men gathered around one of the many computers in there. Only two of them seemed a little educated - literate enough to operate a computer, load a particular web site of their choice, and, perhaps, even copy image files on to floppy disks.

Oh, and by the way, there were way too many floppy disks scattered around those seemingly perverted men. The two men were playing ``guides`` for the other two. Everyone of them was having a time of his life, it seemed. My guess was further confirmed by a roar of laughter which this particular group of guys let out every now and then, followed by exciting whispers and a stooping action to cover the contents of their computer screen from being noticed by the passersby.

Well, that told me a lot. I then decided to get up and leave. Next, I visited another internet cafe (this one located in Gulshan-e-Iqbal). Here I saw a headphone-clad boy about 16 years old, enjoying an X-rated English movie running on the PC from a compact disk. The cafe itself was very well decorated. It had about 12 PCs on a huge table with wooden partitions for maximum individual privacy. Each computer was equipped with a pair of headphones, too. From the looks of it, it was pretty obvious how the owners of this cyber cafe knew about the exact requirements of their customers and were aiming at providing them just that. There was also a huge selection of movie titles on CDs available on a pay-per-view and rental basis here.

All this was a bit too much for me to absorb. I headed straight for home to sulk. ``Mom was right all along,`` I thought. There are people in our society (people like Abdul) who do not respond very well when exposed to the foreign culture where bare legs and deep necklines are social norms. Getting excited is one thing, but losing control and acting awkwardly frustrated in public is another.

Although what mom has yet to discover is how people are quick at finding alternative means of ``recreation``. It is not just about foreign magazines and TV channels anymore. Nowadays people are turning to the mighty internet to seek perverted amusement from. It is happening!

That night, I put two and two together. I recalled an article published in Dawn long ago. A lady was complaining about increased taxi fares. She had said, ``... the unconstitutional raise in taxi fares is an obvious conspiracy against the middle-class people. The rich are too rich to be seen riding a yellow cab, while for the have-nots a taxi ride is an unaffordable luxury. So it is the middle class that suffers the most. Yet, no one seems to notice ...``

The same could be said about cyber cafe users. It made real sense to me when I thought along the following lines: All serious computer users here don`t need a special restaurant equipped with computers, for they have a PC at home or workplace available to them at all times. While the non-users have no requirement for any such place at all.

This division creates a third category of computer users who like to explore what can and what cannot be done on the computers. They don`t wish to own a machine, but have no problems with paying anything between Rs 50 and Rs 80 an hour to be on the internet with friends and have a ``good time`` exploring it. This is the group that uses Cyber Cafes the most. And, as I discovered, they do it with great gusto!

Could it be that the many cyber cafes opening up in the city/country are offering its clientele what the local cinemas and national TV channel refuses to give to the masses? Could that be the cause of excitement and so much enthusiasm expressed by people about having an internet cafe opening up near their locality? Is pornography the hottest selling item contributing towards success of this relatively new venture in our country? And, above all, would it cause a woman absolute embarrassment if she was spotted sitting alone in a local cyber cafe taking down notes? Take a wild guess!

re ASK:

Not having experienced the older railway system, my example is probably inappropriate. The situation you describe in pre-computerized days sounds a lot worse and unfair.

But the current situation is not as efficient/streamlined as it should be. It`s seemed to me that the ``system`` was very outdated in terms of today`s technology(note: i don`t know when the system was put in place and what obstacles were faced etc.) I wound up missing a train by moments because the fellow behind the glass wall was having problems with his printer and proceeded to issue the ticket after the train had left the staion.

The need to stay current or be at the leading edge is important especially when there is a large consumer base for an agency`s services. Computerization should take fully into account the past experieces of other organizations world-wide to find the ``best`` solution and not be a ``hack`` for the sake of computerizaion.

re: author

Nice article. I like your vision.

re: kush #24

I agree with most of your post. But not on one point. You say ``The old institutions (the clerks on duty) are a rickety system at best, but have working procedures that are difficult to duplicate much less emulate. I still shudder at the thought of having to buy a railway ticket from the `compooterized` system.``

My experiences in this regard are very different. I remember that each time I had to get a reservation to go home for vacations from my school it would take me the better part of a saturday to just get the ticket. It used to take the clerk about 1hr to give reserved tickets for 4 persons. It was not just the ticket but checking all possible trains (separate ledger for each - I had to fill out as many forms and keep them handy) and then writing down the telegram to be sent for the wait list in case no seat was available. And then the ticket which itself used to involve filling out a lot of stuff. The clerk used to work quite fast considering that he had to do this all day. After computerization of reservations at my station it never took more than 20 mins wait (mainly because queue size would be smaller). Quite bad actually, but much better than before.

My uncle once told me that it hardly took more than 5 mins for a clerk in the revenue dept. to fetch any file. I had to remind him that his experience was such only because my grandfather (his father) worked in the dept. Computerization will bring an end to the usual excuses and delays by govt. officials. Atleast they will have to think up new excuses. And more importantly the field will be level for all. After all, how can the computer crash for one person and not for the next in line?!

For these reasons I would prefer a rickety computerized govt. office to a rickety ``uncompooterized`` govt. office.

Ashish

IT industry is not only about programming(in fact only a small part has to do with programming), but using information technology to empower governments, corporations and individual. Computers allow all above entities to be better informed of current events(trends in world, business, department, your statement etc.) as well as to be more productive in day to day responsibilities.

It is far easier to find ``herds`` of H1 Programmers than business-visionaries who can focus the herd to fruitful pastures. I think a lot of the IIM folks realize/will realize the tremendous potential within India and are biding their time for opportunities.(or making temporary forays into the US/West/McKinsey Consulting for experience)

The ``herds`` of H1 folks will be able to adapt ``with indian masala`` best-business-practices using IT in India. The visionaries will define how computers fit into Indian society(other than a ``cool`` job with very little long-term impact on India)

Of course all this knowledge and productivity comes at a cost to many of ``established`` entities that are used to doing business the old way. These are the folks who tear out pages from the ledger to do year-end numbers. It may be easy to sweep some of the folks into an IT-led world but for a great deal of people it will be like pulling teeth.

On a recent trip to India, I had seven queries about a disk that no-one else can get into.(ie the tax man) I read of a story about local brokerages that did not want to trade electronically because it meant the transaction confirmed automatically. This took away a precious four days from being able to back out of the trade-don`t have thee papers, must be mistake-in case something unfavorable happened in the market.

Another cost/obstacle is the enormity of the task. India`s goverments, markets and demographics are very complex. The old institutions (the clerks on duty) are a rickety system at best, but have working procedures that are difficult to duplicate much less emulate. I still shudder at the thought of having to buy a railway ticket from the ``compooterized`` system.

Trust, something India lacks in, is also a major need for an IT-empowered nation. Proper tax collection and accounting are exercies in futility without computerized records. Credit based services are all but impossible without trust between financial institutions and individuals. E-commerce is mostly a credit based service. Credit cards are not held by many people in India (the likelyhood of most of you having a credit card is probably not a reflection of India`s norm but this forum`s demographics).

World IT-dominance is a very very tall order and somewhat naive thinking. More than anything it`s how you use the technology to achieve goals.

For Inida, it would be better to focus on filtering through the benefits of computers through such a diverse society. The benefits can be great.(one very important one is the reduction of infrastructure needs because many services like education are available on-line). More direct-selling(Much of the Indian system is crushed by the ``middlemen`` who provide little value add other than availability)

Even in the industrialized(first world),where a lot of these services/concepts exist, the scope and potential of computers is still unfathomable(so far star trek has been the main model and I think those guys are running out of ideas). India is very far behing in that respect but once is able to set up the needed services(whatever they may be) will be able to cover a lot of ground very quickly.

UR, bina

A discussion of the Indian IT industry can be found in Edward Yourdon`s books:

The Decline and Fall of the American Programmer

(1993)

and

The Rise and Resserection of the American Programmer

(1998)

Although some of the information is a bit dated,

most still holds true today. The books themselves (one is obviously a sequal to the other) make a great historical/contemporary study of how the IT industry is evolving.

Digit: Thanks for the response. My knowldge of the Indian IT industry is completely second-hand. So I will have to take your word, and assume that you are correct when you say that the Indian IT industry is in not as good a shape as I think it is in. One thing I can say for sure, however. Indian engineers and IT entrepenuers certainly are very successful in the USA. Some of the companies they have started here are at the highest end of the hi-tech industry.

In response to UR (#14)

``In my opinion the true strength of India and China in the IT industry is the number of programmers they are exporting.``

This is called a brain-drain. Sorry, that was a rather obvious response. But I certainly appreciate your point about getting our proverbial fingers in the IT pie. However, let me comment further:

· India`s IT industry is not in an ideal state. It`s simply an offshoot of Americas. Although this is a great cash-cow for the time being, it will easily be jeopardized in the near future unless India starts exporting technologies, rather than technologists.

· A prevalence of Indians in the American IT industry doesn`t reflect at all on India`s own IT industry. It simply admits to the fact that Americans are willing to accept technologists trained in certain Indian institutions. That`s all. I know of several Pakistani-educated blokes who managed to land jobs without any western education at all. Such is the demand for IT professionals. It really has little to do with India`s or Pakistan`s IT industry.

· This is more of a tid-bit chunk of trivia: Gupta corp and Lotus were American companies (stress on American) founded by Indians. They were huge in their hay-day. Relating this to my point: does India get bragging rights over these companies? No. Of course not. Did India`s IT industry benifit at all from these companies? It`s hard to say, but from what I know I must conclude with a solid ``No``.



India does offer some interesting ``grunt`` based services that Americans themselves don`t have the time or manpower to do. So they outsource it to Indian firms. These either typically involve archaic programming idioms (e.g. maintaining and updating COBOL code, translating from COBOL to a more modern language, etc.) or non-programming clerical activities that employ IT. In any case, things which the average American IT professional isn`t very interested in. For example, one Indian company offers medical professionals an electronic log of their records, patient contacts, etc. Hard copies are faxed over to India, and an electronic version is updated toa databse on the Doctor`s local machine via Internet. Nifty…not exactly rocket science, but nifty.

I would love to hear examples of innovative new Indian companies that are ready to take on the world, though. It`s bound to happen. There is still much good talent left on Indian soil.

As for your industrial revolution example, I`d like to point out that the multitude of Irish, Italian, etc. immigrants at the turn of the century didn`t do much for Ireland, Italy, etc. Immigrants have a nasty habit of naturalizing and becoming ``Americans``, rather than going ``back home`` for the sake of overseeing a technology transfer. India cannot and should not pin her hopes on these people. And that such people are leaving in droves is NOT something to brag about...

In regards to coding style, I was lamenting at the poor coding style of everyone in the industry, irregardless of their background. I have met great software engineers, however they tend to be much better educated than the average programmer. I am of the opinion that University grads tend to be better programmers than non-university grads. I`ll probably get flamed for that. Oh well…reading my prior post it does indeed read as an insult to Indian and Chinese programmers. Poor choice of words. I think I was thinking of two different things whilst I was writing that sentence. No offense was intended.

In response to USHA (#13)

IT refers in general to Information Technology, and IT professional typically refers to those who are employed specifically for the creation and maintenance of (typically) computerized systems eventually to be used by an organization which needs it`s business information managed or processed in non trivial ways.

A programmer is not the only kind of IT professional. You also have DBA`s, webmasters, system administrators, technical support personnel, even those involved in education and training. It`s a huge field! IT professionals don`t have to be university educated, in fact many are trained in technical schools and the likes. The quality of education varies greatly. I personally think that at least a university level education is important for programmers and project leaders. Either that or a decade or two of experience.

Re: samina: Your brother sounds like an extremely intelligent, and enterprising person. I would advise you to pay more attention to what he says :)

Hi.

Can indonesia be the pioneer of sparts wear because Nike makes most of the goods there?

The answer is yes, definitely if the wages paid to indonesians is the same that paid to Nike workers in USA.

The only feature that is different in IT when compared to Nike is that the wage differentials are not astronomical. The wage difference between a factory hand in the US and india is around 40, in the case of IT it is around 10 which is encouraging.

Veeresh - very nicely written, thanks! Reading all that about Bangalore, Chennai, flights and airports reminds me of how I felt a few months ago when I landed in San Francisco airport. Jokes aside, I truly felt I was in Bangalore or Chennai or any major city in India for that matter! As I descended the escalator, I began to count the number of South Asians and felt Ambassador or Fiat cars would be waiting outside to receive me.

In a span of a week I met so many people from India and all IT professionals, I was happily over-whelmed! My friends said they could practically count all their college buddies working in the IT industry right there in Silicon Valley. ``So, who is left in India if all the brains are here?`` I asked. ``Oh, lots of brains left there... lots of brains!`` Hummm....

=zensufi=

re: Truth #?

Indians may be providing the ``grunt`` class in the

IT industry right now, but then look at Japan. 50

years back their industry was limited to making

cheap, if unreliable, imitations of western

products. But the knowledge they accumulated

through that allowed them to become major players

in their own right in time.

...and in the meantime we are still reaping the

benefits. IT is perhaps the only industry doing

well in India at this time.

-narain

Digit: You have made some interesting comments. I think when one looks at the IT world, one must differentiate amongst two different types of environments. You have done that well by explaining the difference between the IT industry in India and in Israel. When I said India and China are ahead of the, ``other countries,`` I was referring to other countries in the third world. You are correct in saying that on the whole, third-world countries are service providers, and not software exporters.

In my opinion the true strength of India and China in the IT industry is the number of programmers they are exporting. One out of every three to four new companies started in Silicon Valley is by an Indian or Chinese. There is an immense amount of money flowing through the hands of Indian and Chinese immigrants, in the international IT industry. Pakistanis have been successful, as well. It is now up to the governments of these countries to create an environment where this money flows back into their countries. I know this is easier said than done. However, unlike the industrial revolution, which was totally dominated at the entraprenueral and management level by the West, in the IT revolution Indians, Chinese (and to a much smaller extent Pakistanis) do have their fingers in the pie. They are driving part of the revolution; albeit not in their native lands. But this is still a lot better than the industrial revolution scenario.

Regarding, good code and bad code. Are you implying that Indians and Chinese do not code as well as Americans? If this is what you are implying, then I would have to disagree. Also, I think quite a few Asians have moved into mid-level and senior-level management positions in the international IT industry. So they are not just the grunt labor anymore.

Any comments are appreciated...

I also have to get this off my chest:

Those who think that the emerging IT industry in the thrid world, India and China in particular, will reshape the economic landscape of the world should think again.

I cannot think of a Chinese or Indian company that has taken a leadership role in IT. The successes they are experiencing are nothing more than a trickle-down of wealth from western companies employing their services. The IT industry in these countries, unlike Western countries or Isreal, is entirely service-based. There are no new technlogoies, software or hardware, comming out of these countries. This is very bad.

In contrast, Isreal`s high-tech industry (thanks to ex-soviet immigrants) is almost entirely based on exporting new technlogies. That`s the place to be, if you ask me.

India`s IT industry is nothing to be proud of. It`s nothing but a cyber-sweatshop full of educated eager beavers doing other nation`s dirty IT work. Not because they`re particularily good at what they do, but because they`re DIRT CHEAP. To claim India has a successfull IT industry is akin to claiming that Indonesia is a giant in the sneaker industry since Nike makes most of their sneakers there.

I admit, writing software is a more complicated task than manufacturing sneakers. Perhaps a better example would be GM motor cars being made in Mexico. Mexico is by no means an auto-industry giant.

India`s comfy role in the global IT position is potentially under threat from other emerging nations in Africa and Asia aswell. India maybe cheap, but in time I`m certain another emerging IT economy can offer similar services at an even LOWER price. Don`t think it won`t happen. Programming is not hard, and doesn`t demand an incredible amount of resources (a couple of eager new-grads and a handfull of computers ideally with internet access). It`s simply a matter of time.



Food for thought...sorry if I sound like a party-pooper. I would like to add, though, that there is more than enough talent in India/Pakistan/etc to become leaders in IT. Trick is to convince them to stay home rather then hop on a Jumbo to the west for the big wad`o $$$.