Unnoticed Invisibility

I liked the casual style of this poem. You sounded almost like Imtiaz Dharker at places, a casual tone but with disturbed rumblings deep inside which only a very discerning ear can trace...

Patriarchy somehow has reduced woman to a life of anonymity; there aren`t much choices available for a woman and her only way to happiness is accepting life quietly as it were...

i have been born and bred here. Its been long since i have started looking around and have undestood what happens around me in this society. It has suffocated me. I cant breath. I fully agree with with what you said. We treat most of our women as daulay shah`s mizaray which is so inhuman. Men, may it be husbands brothers or the fathers. They are the same.

Hi Uzma,

I find the tone and message of your works simple and powerful. I love Memories of the Monsoon. We`ve been lucky with the inches of rain this year in Southern California. Just wanted to say I appreciate your work.

Misbah

Rehan:

Sorry, yar, I stand corrected.

Bhaiyee itni bhi faragaht kis kaam ki? Kahan ghayab thay?

Anyways, welcome back.

rgds

t

U:

hickies galore:)

lve

t

Uzma:

What I am reproducing here from today`s rediff is the story of another woman. A son`s eulogy for the mother. Another tale of the indomitable spirit and the emotions felt from within. Another indicator of the inevitable. No matter where we live in the region, what national or religious (or irreligious) tags we carry: or are branded on us by others; we are the same. We are the same whether we end up six feet below (tons of mud), or six feet above (tons of sandalwood).And how we journey through life to that end. Our dreams, aspirations, hopes despite politics, divisions, and acrimony are the same. Just feel like sharing Pritish Nandy with you and others.


A SHORT PAUSE

Pritish Nandy


Mother died yesterday. Or was it today?

My favourite novel starts with these two sentences. L`Etranger by Albert Camus. Better known as The Outsider.

I feel like its protagonist Meursault today. For when your mother dies you lose all sense of time. The grief is so overwhelming that you do not even know where to begin, how to cry.

I am luckier than most people. I knew she was dying. I was, you could say, ready for it. She was old, ninety years old. Born in the first decade of the last century, she had seen everything that the world has now forgotten. Horse drawn tramcars on the streets of Calcutta. The coming of the first radio, the first typewriter. Her best friend in school threw a bomb at the Governor and went to prison. She was educated, more educated than my father and, as a teacher, earned more money than he did as the warden of a boys hostel. I was her youngest son, born when she was forty. More by accident than design, I guess.

I remember her as a teacher. A remarkable teacher who ended up as the first Indian vice principal of the school I went to. La Martiniere, founded by a French soldier of fortune who made enough money in India in the nineteenth century to set up three schools. One in Lyons where he was born and the other two in Calcutta and Lucknow. Schools in which some of the best known Indians studied. From Vivien Leigh and Merle Oberon to Harry Webb (alias Cliff Richards) to Arun Nehru, Vijay Mallya and my good friend Dilip De who was better known as DK in school.

My father died 21 years ago. He was her best friend and mine and had no business dying at 72. That, too, on his birthday. He was fit enough to live for a couple of decades more. But he had gone to visit his sisters in Jabalpore and, there, underwent a prostrate surgery that felled him. The surgery was fine but post-surgery care was inadequate and by the time I reached Jabalpore, hearing of the operation from someone else, he was already in a coma. He had specifically told everyone not to inform me about his hospitalisation because he was concerned that I would get unduly worried and might even hop onto a train and reach there.

And that is actually what I did the moment I heard about the surgery. But it was too late already. I sat beside him for ten long days, watching him die. It was an experience I would not wish on my worst enemy. The helplessness, the pain, the desperation of watching someone you love more than yourself dying before your eyes and not being able to do anything about it. I prayed. But what can prayers achieve in the face of death? I could not even cry. I cried, in fact, a whole week later when I realised that I would never ever meet him again. He was my best friend, my only confidante.

In many ways my mother died the day my father did. But her spirit was strong and even though she lost her will to live the moment she heard that my father had passed away, she did not show it. She lived with her grief, her pain for 19 long years till Alzheimer`s mercifully took her memory (and to an extent, I guess, her pain) away. She stopped recognising me and all those around her and lived, like a frightened child, in a dark, fearful world of her own surrounded by phantoms she alone knew and could recognise. Once in a while, a window would open for a moment and the light would come streaming in. She would recognise me and say a few familiar words. Otherwise, she would sit all day in a dark corner and cringe.

Nurse after nurse came and went. It was an unbearable duty.

She would be ill at times and need hospitalisation. Once she broke her hip and we took her to the Hinduja hospital. Another time she caught a death of a chill and we put her into Jaslok next door. The doctors were wonderful and she recovered from both but I can never forget those terrible days when she lay in bed, a small, crumpled, little figure, shrunk to half her size, combating pain and suffering without anyone by her side. For she recognised no one, she did not even understand where she was and why there were so many tubes and needles poked into her. I could see the fear in eyes. I could see the pain, the helplessness, the complete lack of understanding as to why she lay strapped to a bed for days and none of us around her would set her free.

She came back home smaller in size. And even smaller in spirit. More lost than she ever was. More confused. More bereft of hope than I had ever seen her. The big banyan tree under whose shadow we all played and grew up had shrivelled into this tiny, dry plant whose twigs seemed as if they would break off at the slightest rush of wind. She was so frail, so frightened that I left her alone. There was no communication possible between us. It was only love that kept us bonded. When she cried out loud I would go up to her and take her face between my hands and she would keep quiet. Even though she did not recognise me there was something in the way she responded to my touch that told me she knew she was in safe hands. It was like hiding under a bed during an earthquake. It gave her some hope but that was all. Fear hijacked her entire life.

Fear of what? I do not know. Doctors say that it is a strange, all encompassing, never leaving fear that all patients suffering from Alzheimer`s feel. An inexplicable, unknown miasma of dread that eventually destroys their will to live. I could see that happen to her. She would occasionally disappear for days inside a huge, ugly smog of hopelessness and not speak, not eat for days. We would plead, beg, shout, scream, threaten her. In fact, do anything and everything to wake her up to the world around her but she refused to budge. You could describe her world as virtual, sick. An imaginary world induced by the illness she suffered from but for her it was the only world she had, she knew.

She is gone now. She died yesterday or was it today, who knows? All I know is she is dead and I am left no wiser about life and death, happiness and sorrow, joy and anguish. The pain, ofcourse, will ease. I will be back at work tomorrow. I will write my usual columns, hop onto planes and go off to different cities. I will travel, campaign, fight for issues that I have always fought for. Smile, argue, politick, pick up the gauntlet thrown by life again. Everything will be back to normal.

But today I hope you will forgive me as I take a break from matters of state to write about my mother as her dead body lies on the cold floor, wrapped in an off white Bengali sari that evokes memories of the land she was born in, the culture she grew up with, the language she loved to speak, the literature she taught.

The agarbattis around her are glowing. There is a portrait of her and my father on the wall and far away, very far away the city bustles. To remind me that life goes on as usual.

For Mumbai it is just another busy day.

Uzma:

Where is the pertinency? Well, why do we look for relevancy in all things? Here on Chowk, somebody wrote an essay on `nothing` -- could be Ansari or Asim Hayat in which........sorry to drift.... Like I was saying I have lost that chain of thought.......oh do we have to talk about Adam and Eve, Khuda or Bhagwaan, (should I use a capital B or a small one will do?) and when was the last time any poetic effort merited this many responses; I mean we all understand those trigger words that merit hundreds of responses, don`t we? oh all those three, four, five, seven and eight letter words. Astagfirullah, as hamidm would say? what is m for? well, never mind, the more important thing is; is it Astaghfirullah or Astaghfarullah? and should A be caps? like I mean aren’t there other important things we can deal with than those 3,4,5, 7 and 8 letter words; yaar what happened to propensity for life and living? oh I can ramble on and on but there is this hadith; but then why bother ---- who bother when we have the whole book; but then what about others who have books too... yaar, kiya baikaar ka chuckkar hay yeh saab. Gotta go and have that double, or is it triple whammy of doodh, patti and sutta. Double or triple?

rgds & aah (that`s adab-arz-hay)

t

rajanjua:

Amir why don`t you do a piece on Sukayna and alongwith it the early phase of Umar bin Abdul Aziz, before he became the Amir ul Momineen, and the latter phase of the fifth caliph. That will surely disturb the hornet`s nest. I have heard these rumours.......

rgds & mubaraks

t

PM re# 85:

The subject, shall we refer to her as Ms. Piggy?
Ms. Piggy is another one chasing young ones! Particularly one that has made her life living hell. (Uzma, you mind if I use this space to digress?) Some say the mere fact of surviving in that dysfunctional city is hell. Am not sure if I am compounding the hell correctly. Will append your message to my greetings. Hope she responds. If it fails, will mention to some Chowkies visiting the said city, to jolt her out of her lethargy.

As for sheer-khorma and other artery clogging delicacies, email your phone number (if you are still in southern Ontario. Who knows I may let bygones be bygones and invite you over!

As for the Islam bit I can give you some unique interpretations out of existing wordings. But I am understandably loathe to do so. I mean there is this one fatwa exciting our dull lives already....

Too bad you missed that little gem. Will let you know shortly when I post a new one there.

rgds

t

Oh, in the spirit of time;

EID MUBARAK
and seasonal GREETINGS
to one and all

PM: Re #72

Interesting thoughts.

Allow me to build an analogy before I pose a query


The constitution of the Excited States was written over two hundred years ago. The Supreme Court was appointed the guardian over it to interpret it according to changed sensibilities. The founding fathers in their wildest dreams could not have predicted the societal changes that were to come. But we see that the Justices have tackled abortion, busing, presidential rights, legislature rights, fundamental rights etc. interpreting and reinterpreting those eight thousand words.

Now. let us come to Kor`an. For now, we do not have to go into who created it. It is enough simply to acknowledge it as a written document more or less intact down the centuries. If we make a slight presumption that this is for all times then there must be a mechanism for continuous reinterpretation to go with changing times without alienating the original intent. My query for you is, what happened to that mechanism?

Iqbal (Muhammed, Sir Allama) has raised and dealt with these issues among others in The Reconstruction of Religious Thought in Islam. (if memory serves right, particularly in the sixth lecture.) Zeemax earlier and elswhere has indicated this book is banned in Pakistan now. Others say it is not banned, but everytime it is reprinted, certain religious factions buy off all copies to make it extinct again.

regards

t

P.S. Am still waiting for the `review`.
P.P.S. The poem is replaced by an story on that page.

HamidM:

Wow.

Moth Smoke? mean anything to you?

- Bina.

Re: #10, 23, 25, 29, 49, & 52.

Have a tough time deciding between rant and rave.

Rant: n. loud, wild, extravagant speech.

Rave: v.i. to talk incoherently or wildly, as a delirious or demented person.

Are these sermons rants or raves?

t

Uzma:

Interesting musings:

``... yet, sometimes in our zeal and passion for liberation, we become just as closed minded as the people we are fighting against. If we are truly ``open-minded`` that means we should be able to take people for what and who they are.`` And

``I then looked around and realized that these group of women talked to one another and understood one another, and were not getting as annoyed as I was by the entire event.``

After your musings, the lines I selected in an earlier interact here appear more potent:

We speak similar languages,
but do not communicate.
Is it because we do not talk -
or because you do not understand?

Reflectively, I would say these lines also sum up beautifully the KJs here on the Chowk, too. These Knee Jerkers who oft times monolpolise and wear one down by shouting and proclaiming the superiority of their religion, culture or country. (Clarification: am referring to KJs on either side of the great divide. No fear of monopolies here.)

love

t

``If you didnt get the point, that`s ok.`` Wow that is very generous of you to say ! It is Ok; I am OK! even though I do not get ``the point``. Thank you for giving yourself the permission to be OK despite my not ``Getting it``. Not to mention your patronizing recommendation ``maybe next time... perhaps you should attempt opening your mind before your open other vocal orifices.`` Wow, what wit and words (I will have to look up the Big Evil Western Words book for that word) You have forced me to look at this poetry thing again.

Let me try : Arranged Marriages are Ok, because they CAN be happy too! Translation :Don`t worry about gambling with someone`s life because you CAN hit the Jackpot too! Another try: having 15 kids pass through your birth canal though you may be young (and ill educated ill equipped to parent children) is OK; Not only should we understand this criminal behaviour we should approve of it too?

It may be that the most useful thing you ever did in your life might have been to cook, clean and watch children but you want us to believe nonetheless that one needs PHDs in these fields? So what if we dont give PHDs in the GREAT and VIRTUOUS ART of cooking cleaning and watching children!?! You dont need us anyway! (``I do not need you``) atleast you sit on your ass all day and go about your world-saving-cooking-cleaning-watching-children business (everyone should go to School Of Nannies And Maids And Ignored Muslim HouseWives and do research in this exciting area)

It may be that you want us to believe that you are NOT really giving into the ``patriarchy`` but actuallly having a ball, being productive (in a very literal sense) and everything. Forget any vocal opposition to your wonderful ways - you wont even allow people to leave you alone; now you want us to start approving and worshipping your ways: this culture or religion or crime that you are being all defensive about. We should all ``recognise`` your marrying-cooking/cleaning-kids-producing-ways; Would you like the Noble Prize for such an ORIGINAL, HUMANITARIAN invention?

I read a lot of this ``Oh you think just because I mutilate the clit and phallus of my youngborn and slaughter them to the deities I am ignorant? hah take this: I can write a sentence ! and whine very effectively too! and I can make you feel bad and guilty for feeling so superior to me... You think just because I wear the Hijab I am oppressed? Just because the hijab and the lack of sunlight causes bone infections in my sisters we are suffering? Hah, we will show you! when we buy that chiffon Paris scarf thanks to my oil rich husband [who by the way has never broken a bone in my body nor ever barbecued me on a stake] and then I will sit here and I will take this paper and pen thing and I will tell you about how intelligent and beautiful I really am- so that you may allow me to do the same thing to my children- oh please let me do the same to my children ;will you let me or not? please do! otherwise my husband will break my bones and barbeque me... pleeease hanh? HAH fool, I do not need you anyway! I exist as I am! I am NOT stupid by the way- you may think so- You may even think you are all that but you are not! look at your TV Shows ; Taubah Taubah who can imagine such immorality, people living together and everything! not me! who has to cook and clean and watch children and serve my husband ``

Solitude: Go Brother!

There is a vindictiveness pulsating in the modern feminist. She wants revenge. She needs to show (men) in a bad light in order to have her point heard.

Solitude: I will say once again, you need to get out more, and meet some people. Otherwise you will continue to stew in your hatred for Islam. Just because you have had bad experiences in America, doesn`t mean everyone has had similar experiences. So as I stated earlier, speak for yourself. Don`t assume that everyone`s experiences have been like yours. There are quite a few happy and content Muslims out there, as well. It seems like you are trying to rub your discontent off on everyone else.

Some Hypocrite Pontificated in #15 :`` Speak for yourself. Perhaps you have not had a chance to party, play, read, discuss, debate, laugh, sing and dance. That does not mean that every Muslim falls into this category.``

What sort of a ``Muslim`` would dance around with women? I know of ``Muslims`` who walk around paying and screwing the ladies in latex- I have seen enough number of them sweat and slobber their hairy arses over their unsuspecting victims. I have seen enough of them chuck their ``values`` and their ``pure ways`` out the window whenever they see anything with a hole. Their ability to compartmentalize their own ``culture`` and ``high and pure way of life`` astounds me. I know a ``brother`` who used to lament proudly :``After soiling myself with this darty girl I would always do Wudu and pray fajar`` I know the kind- they who`re and drink around in their prime and then return to the ``misguided masses`` to ``un impress`` them of the West; to tell them how virtuous their poverty is- to tell them how great their evil religion is- to worship their puritanism, their ignorance, their misery : ``Oh brothers in Islam I was misguided when I screwed this prostitute and that, but I finally managed to convert her to the faith and have seen the light - look at me, come to you after leaving all the temptations of the evil west so that I may share with you my hatred for their dirty immoral white women and ways ... so if any of you is thinking of ever breaking your chains of submission(Islam) take comfort in knowing that I have returned repenting; returned to receive your admiration for having what you can never dream of: the west, success, freedom, fun and emotions your segregated, conservative culture will never permit``

You are telling me to get out a little more? like if I left my `Musallah` all those years of indoctrination, all that fear and suspicion of women, all those years of ``zani goes to hell``, all that psychological abuse and ``mental blocks`` (which my father likes to call ``divine intervention``) will go away? Well, they probably do go away for your kind (Iqbal and Imran Khans of the world: ``oh look I was a spoiled rich brat who went to oxford while you toiled in Peela schools! I never cared about my religion/culture and broke its every law only to return to the fold as a born again Muslim to become political and try to screw more people for their money, daughters and respect``)- for that you are enviable (aren`t you?) How I wished I could pretend that it was NO sin to be with a ghair-mahram (woman you are not married to) in the presance of that woman; and then pretend again that it WAS a sin to be with a ghair-mahram in the presance of the Maulana. What chameleon qualities of self deception. Congratulations on creating a universal illusion. Like parasites you desolate our own lands to feed the greener, free-er pastures of the secular, liberated ``evil`` west only to continue to hate everyone (even us for trying to be free of this BONDAGE and _Submission_) bu you drinking-partying-hypocrites are such saints! despite your scorn over our ``decadent`` , ``copy cat``, ``west worshipping``, ``hippie-wannabe`` ways you still want to ``help`` us ``preserve our Arab identities`` and hold onto our ``Arab roots and Arab ways``. So that we may continue to plough your lands, and continue to laude your ability to malign the enemy, your ability to steal their ``education`` like a spy, your ability to say: ``hay you may be eating grounded date seeds, you may be getting all your 17 sons martyred in my and Allah`s way but atleast we are perfect and complete and happy unlike those dirty, divorce-ridden, crime-ridden, immoral, decadent western devils! oh guess what ? my son is going to their premeir university so that he can steal their nuclear tech. and bomb them with the same knowledge! am I not the greatest ? but don`t thank me Thank our lord! while I go for a ride in my western made Ferrari and dance and party and drink- who says Muslims do not party? hanh?``.

WHERE HAS MY PARO GONE?

When my parents married

Every young and old blessed the couple

They wished them to live happily

And have a son

I was born

And on my birth there was jubilation all over

All thronged and wished me long life

A handsome career and a bride

Young, and beautiful as if from the moon.

I grew up just as every one had wished

Young healthy and handsome

My mother looked in every nook and corner

For a princess of the fairies

And one day she did find one-

You

My heart skipped a beat,

I lost my world to you

And even presented you with a tiny globe

Yes it was only yesterday

Some 30 years or so ago

All these fleeting moments you have been

Excellent cook, nanny and a housemaid

A pretty and clever shopper

One could hire the best,

But who could hire a love

Who said you were stupid

Your art is in deceiving so many

Captivating

You have all the out and inlaws

It’s I with all the flaws

When I come home and look for you

I want to hear nothing

I want to say nothing but I love you

And only find

Vilainish little arms tangling your neck *

Or get for an answer

My mother is in the kitchen!

My grannny is with the neighbours!

My Auntie is out to a seek bahoo!

The would be daughter in law

Another fairy- for a handsome young fool

Who one day sitting in a secluded corner

Wishing the fairy would have a moment for him

Shall wait till eternity like me

And ask every passing moment

Where has my Paro gone?

*(Irony, cant call them “ROO SIAH”, RAQIBAN E GUL RUKH!)

tariqlodi

I liked the poem a lot. Really appreciated the simplicity of the language. Simple, yet expressive phrases. Strong narrative.

`When am I to pick up a pen to create and be as talented as you. Tall, beautiful and intelligent.`

If I understood correctly, in these lines you`re basically describing yourself (or at least your ilk), the `educated, liberated desi woman`. You may be talented, tall, beautiful and intelligent but I`ll tell you one thing, you sure as hell aren`t modest.

Although the poem does provide the so-called oppressed woman with a voice and allows her to vindicate herself against her educated, liberated counterpart, her position is still a little sad. The poem does a great job of showing a different type of beauty, creativity and passion, one that is often overlooked by the educated classes. It also shatters commonly held stereotypes of the state of these women`s lives (i.e.they are mistreated by their husbands and forced into unhappy arranged marriages), as seen by the educated elite. But it does not address what I see as the really tragic or pitiable (which is too strong a word that I am not comfortable using but I can`t think of a more sucessful substitute) aspect of many of these women`s lives which is their lack of choice, the inability to make their own decisions regarding their lives.

On an aside, `Pather Panchali` by Satyajit Ray does a very good job of capturing the beauty and joy (and the tragedy) of a simple rural life. And Pedro Almodovar`s `All About My Mother` does a great job of capturing the beauty, strength and passion of motherhood.

Just in case anyone was looking for movie recommendations.

Uzma:

Nice twist on ``most MEN lead lives of quiet desperation.......``

And solitude: Excuse my bluntness but are you an ABCD? Please do tell....

Uzma,

I really like the perspective you provide in this poem. It seems like there is a combination of items bothering this woman: 1)she`s too busy with household chores to have time for any other intellectual pursuits, 2) she`s married to a much older man who views her a stupid young girl whose main purpose in life is to have kids. 3) He doesn`t talk to her at all beyond what is required to satsify his basic needs.

I have a question though, you say you wrote this poem out of pity for women in such situations. Is it pity for an otherwise intelligent woman who is allowing herself to ``play dumb``? Or a women who refuses to stand up to herself? Or are you just annoyed with the fashion/makeup/money/status obsessed bimbo types?

A general comment I will add to the discussion between uzma and afrisiyab is that one can try as hard as they can to empathize but they can only gain a superficial appreciation compared to someone actually in it. For e.g, someone can read and try to empathize with someone who`s parents divorced, but can never truly feel their pain if their own parents had a happy marriage.

Regards,

Fozia

Solitude:

hahahahahahhahahahahahahahhahahahahahahahaaaa.

thanks. i was having a long day, i needed that laugh.

acha, as for your response. thank you for that as well. Although, you really didnt get the point. But, that`s ok. no really, no one is judging you personally by your uproarious responses. if you didnt get the point, that`s ok. maybe next time... perhaps you should attempt opening your mind before your open other vocal orifices.

afrasiya:

thanks again for your words. I`m thinking about what you said about ``desi`` men. I`ve thought a lot about this. new view points are always welcome and interesting to ponder. Thanks. :)

adaab arz-hai.

Solitude: confused ? straightforward ? controversial ? but never boring !!!!!

Solitude: ``When we see these ``Western devils`` partying, playing, reading, discussing, debating, laughing and singing and dancing and drinking with their beautiful ``hooris on earth`` in our heart of hearts there arises a kasak (a pang of remorse and anger for the pious and pure ancestors who ruined our lives and lands to force us to seek opportunities elsewhere)`` Speak for yourself. Perhaps you have not had a chance to party, play, read, discuss, debate, laugh, sing and dance. That does not mean that every Muslim falls into this category. Maybe you need to get out a little more.

I enjoyed the poem. It seems like a followup to Anita Zaidi`s poem (earlier in chowk) and thus breaks the generalizations of the ``suffering`` that we associate with the ``desi woman.``

However, if there is any critique I would apply to it, it is relating to that of the ``global`` view of WHO a desi woman is. We want to avoid generalizations (as your poem shows) but we continue to do it in terms of the socio-economic class of people we speak about. I dont mean to imply that all desi women living in poverty are unhappy with their patriarchical situations but I do feel that you speak of ONE desi woman, yourself, or maybe a multiplicity of that one based upon similarly brought up women (this is always a hard one to define but in this case I will assume that ).

When you say that all men are not abusers or all arranged marriages are not unhappy, you are right. However, it is the ability to do something about it (the abuse or the decision not to get married) that has always been my problem with the current system.

The fact that a large number of (desi) women cannot ``pick up a pen and create`` primarily due to the illiteracy the patriachal system encourages illuminates that the global ``desi woman`` does not exist. In that case we speak about just a small (very small) minority of elite educated, liberated desi women who are saying,`` hey, wait a minute, I`m pretty happy with my life, husband, and children.``

But your point was well taken.

Regards

i`m sorry, but i don`t hink i`ve ever sat next to a woman that i havn`t noticed.

wink wink

hey, is it just me, or did others imagine the person sitting next to you to be a `modern` woman (coffee party begum-type)?

Anyways, liked the independent neo-feministic attitude, not overly defined in relation to, or as parallel to, the opposite sex. (I think solitude(?) has a point in his critique of ``Not all husbands mistreat their wives``-- That sounded kinda apologetic)

Otherwise, a nice read of a refreshingly unfettered take on one`s (or Woman`s?) destiny.

Solitude:

enjoyed your comments as always.:-) say, why don`t you write your OWN retaliatory ode.... Maybe start with:

``I am nothing but the monster your mother warned you about, the one, sitting next to you (no doubt contemplating the depth of your cleavage)...``

( *sigh *) yes, we`re victims too, ladies.. the ``patriarchy`` and chastity syndrome screws us over too you know!

regards,

Hey solitutde:

When did they let you out? Remember to take your prescription drugs or those nice folks in white overalls will come and get you.


hallucinatingly,

t

``I am nothing more than a plain woman.

The one sitting next to you, that you never notice.``

I dont get it? Aren`t you the plain woman who is trying to be ``modest`` and walking around wearing a hijab because you do NOT want to be noticed by men and their immoral eyes? Aren`t you the one kind who goes around saying ``I wear a hijab so men can appreciate me for my mind and not my body`` - then you complain men are ignoring you? What do you want us to do? ``Deares Uzma, we know you are married and have kids, yet we want to lay down and worship you; oh one with a husband and kids! oh talented one take my pen! and let us make poetry!`` You talk about ``patriarchy`` and then you go ahead and get ``married`` and ``have kids``. You talk about patriarchy and then say ``not all arranged marriages are unhappy``. Isn`t arranged marriage (and the institution of marriage the foundation of a patriarchy?) If I paid attention to you oh Muslama who got arranged marriaged, have kids and a husband ``who doesnt mistreat you`` (wow! what a LUCKY woman, her husband does NOT mistreat and beat the living daylights out of her! wow what a fortunate girl to have a husband who doesnt break her bones! yes it is so much to ask these days; Did your parents put the following in the ``rishta pasand Ad`` : Needed fair, Ivy League educated Sunni boy who does NOT abuse women. )

Muslim women love to ``cone-fuse`` us dont they? First they bark at you for admiring them and wanting them sexually then they whine and moan about being ``invisible`` and being ``ignored``. If I looked at you will your father , your 11 brothers (from paindoo-ville) promise to not give me another khatna (circumcision) ? If I look at you will you scream ``lower your eyes heathen and infidel`` or will you say ``I believe in Allah and the Prophet and that all men are after my hymen`` It is not like us Muslim men did not try- you see. We tried really hard but the whole community (specially the women are basically kill-joy) composed of pessimistic ``hai chechnya, hai phalastine, hai Timbuktu!`` people while us boys are whining ``hai mairay dil!`` (oh my heart). We need love not your whines, your hang ups, your vows of chastity, your parental/mullah approval, your insecurities, your fanaticism, your pro-arranged-marriage Khutbas. Aren`t we the boys not suffering? When we are constantly ``teased`` and harassed ``kab shadi karo gay ji`` (when will you get married ji? TRANSLATION: PLEASE gawd I have this ugly neice who is desperate and horny and needs a husband NOW! so I hope your parents have taught you to be as anti social as possible and I hope you have ``saved`` yourself for her... to be eventually screwed over by her) A friend when harassed for the umpteenth time finally exploded when his aunt said ``Aray he goes after all those gori(white) girls, right?`` He said ``I am sorry bhabi ji, but our girls refuse to give me head``. The entire ``party`` was stunned into silence including the ``tablighi Jamaat`` walas (actually they can never keep their ``astaghfirallahs`` to themselves) and he was kicked out of the ``party`` (do us muslims actually have one``]?)

When we see these ``Western devils`` partying, playing, reading, discussing, debating, laughing and singing and dancing and drinking with their beautiful ``hooris on earth`` in our heart of hearts there arises a kasak (a pang of remorse and anger for the pious and pure ancestors who ruined our lives and lands to force us to seek opportunities elsewhere) Therefore we say : to you the puritans belong the Dhari-walas/bearded ones (the poor souls who live on philadelphia cream cheese and saudi almond impregnated dates and have four wives) Wishing you a happy three-saukan riddled life in this world and 70 saukans in the world hereafter.

Tusleem,

It is actually not as simple as you make it to be.

My being looked at as a Desi man is not JUST because I am a Desi man, it is because I am percieved to be a part of something bigger automatically just because of my association due to background.

What we all need to learn, men and women alike, is to treat every person like a person. Now, centuries of opression has imprinted a very lasting and enduring effect on women`s collective conscience, trust me, I understand that. But if there is any hope for the endurance of the undoing of this emblem, it is through cool heads and rationale prevailing engagements.

I am sorry, I am probably trying to engage you in an arguement that is misplaced by this action of mine. In short, great work, keep it up. Hope to see more of you.

afrasiyab:

I can only speak for myself when I say that most times pity starts with that inner feeling of shame, sorrow, and desire to help those women out of it...somewhere along the line, at times, i find myself more condescending- perhaps without intending to be so, but knowing that my tone betrays traces of exasperation.

As for:

``The feeling that no matter how much I empathize, sympathize or do whatever else with the cause of women in Pakistan I am always going to be looked at as a DESI man.``

You will be looked at as a Desi man, because you are a desi man - likewise, I will be looked at as a desi woman - what you need to find are people who are willing to look beyond mere sterotypes, and see you for what you are and listen to what you are saying. if the women are pushing you away when you come to emphatize simply because your a desi man - well, it might have to do with the fact that there is still a lot of unresolved anger (again, this is my point of view. I do not speak for women at large) and unreconciled feelings...

not to mention that even though men can experience similar feelings...they cannot emphatize, just by the mere fact that they are not women. You may sympathize with us... and we may sympathize with you...but, you will never know what it feels like when you are told you cannot go outside of the house because you are a woman. I`m really not sure if what I am saying answers any of your questions. and, i dont mean to push you away from expressing your support, etc for women... on the contrary, please continue to engage in dialogue...because it is only then that we start to understand all pieces of the puzzle.

adaab arz-hai

zehra:

I realize that it`s not my best work - I think I feared that if I didn`t send it right away, I would re-work it and lose something in it...

But, you are absolutely right in saying that it isn`t my most poetic works, nor incredibly well-composed... i think i like it that way, though. (shrug) dunno. and, i never take your constructive critiques personally ;-)

perhaps some day ``Memories of the Monsoon`` will appear and then you can expound on how much you adore my use of color and vibrancy -- till then...

Ras -

Thanks. :) I`m glad you enjoyed it.

(no use of urdu here to modify for `western audiences`, eh? *tongue in cheek * )

adaab arz hai.

Simplicity, in this work, is the most noticeable property.

You have done some excellent work on your lines right in the middle.

It has been a while since I posted anything at chowk but to come back to this warm nice corner on the noisy, cluttered up information superhighway, and find work like this on it is really refreshing.

I have a question, Is it the condascending pity that you feel so strongly about or the kind where someone really feels something inside. Are you making that distinction at all. For instance, when I feel ``pity`` about the state of women in my country there is a certain penchant of shame and in fact fairly tortourous and painful realization that I am being pushed on the other side of the fence by everyone, most noticeably by women. Maybe it is just the women around me. The feeling that no matter how much I empathize, sympathize or do whatever else with the cause of women in Pakistan I am always going to be looked at as a DESI man.

How am I supposed to deal with the helplessness I feel in that case.

If I am reading too much into this, please pardon me, I tend to do that sometimes.

the sentiment of this poem is wonderful...its real..and i have looked at women like the one you descibe, the way you have described..

the poem itself could use some work. its not your best work...it has some great lines ( this is my poetry, this is my art), but other stuff just isn`t flowing properly..the imagery is strong..the wording just needs to be arranged better.

(you know i still love you :))

slink...im (finally!) comming to pakistan..jan 11-31. wanna meet? its only for about two and a half weeks but i should have one or two afternoons free. you owe me the story of how you and arif met :)

errerr@hotmail.com

z.rizvi

Thank you for all these words of encouragement and support. (smile)

I wrote it as an exercise... experimenting with perspective. I was very curious to see the response it would generate as well. and was, actually, quite reticent, only because i did not want to appear patronizing, or condescending.

i have often times found myself looking at some women, and just wondering...and wondering...and i`ve tried to listen and understand what they really are saying...and honestly cant understand the importance of their words... but, i have come to realize, that it is obviously making sense to someone else - maybe not me... simultaneously, when I speak, they look at me, and I`m not entirely sure if they understand the importance of what I am saying...

anyhow, I am still curious to see how others respond... I hope it doesn`t offend anyone - if so, I apologize.

adaab arz-hai.

A wonderful poem from someone whose writings and presence we cannot but notice ever since ``Harappa``.

Ras

dear uzma,

loved it. temporal (insert mad wave here) saw it from the male perspective, but i saw it from a female perpective and strangely enough, felt a stirring of shame. i have often looked at women like this, with pity for being what certain textbooks call `opressed`. but you`re right, beauty lies in what we create, and the picture you paint has its own kind of beauty.i particularly liked the reference to the man breathing. to me, as well, thats the time when i`m most at peace.
thank you
shandana

Beautiful work Uzma...

You had expressed the fire which is frozen inside every degraded heart of a south asian woman... Great Job.

Chowkwala..

Adnan.

Uzma:

Yaar, kamal kardiya hay! Ba`ad iftar abhi doodh patti sutta shroo hi kiya tha keh yeh nazm samnay aa`gaiee.

And just last night amidst the hoopla I got into this discussion with four intelligent, beautiful women. The topic was the insensitivity of most desi men.

They all felt unappreciated to some degree. But two in particular are almost ready to abandon ship. The usual reasons were discussed for staying together or leaving it all behind. A strange consensus emerged that if they leave where would they find another (desi) fellow who would accord them equality and respect?

Come to think of it where indeed? Sorry if I`m generalising here but most desi men take their women for granted once they are married. Ofcourse my experience is mostly about those in the diaspora (and also rather confined to those with certain educational and interest groups), but I suspect things back in Pakistan may be even worse. I find the menfolk`s BehestiZewar syndrome alarming.

Am looking forward to an interesting discussion your poem may start.

Loved these line:
We speak similar languages,
but do not communicate.
Is it because we do not talk -
or because you do not understand?
but found the next line.................well, sorry, a tad jarring, just a tad me friend.

love

t

P.S. Seasonal greetings. Year, century, holy days the whole enchilada

re PM:

At least you disagree like a gentleman would!! My reply was intended to make a disctinction between people who try to find answers for everything in the ``eternal`` religion and those who don`t. The first group in my opinion is more dangerous. A good example would be the alleged discussion going on in the courts of Baghdad on the subject of whether crows are ``halal`` or not while the mongol hordes were at the gates of the city. There is the Quran and Hadith and the traditions and stories. Leave them as they are because they form the heritage of a great religion. Anyone who tries to reconcile today`s issues by casting aspersion on the veracity of these is a revisionist at best and an ignoramus at worst. Its the fear of being labelled a heretic that stops most if they decide to make a clean break with the scriptures or the hadith that would otherwise keep the religion relevant. Sadly that would continue to to be the case as long as the muddled intellectuals keep the flag of the ``ETERNAL`` and ``IMMUTABLE`` religion flying high.

Statements about who is a Muslim and ``everything else being commentary`` cracks me up. It escapes me when otherwise reasonable folks go into an intellectual frenzy when something does not fit their worldview. A religion is a collection of edicts, traditions and stories. Some of them will be relevant to the norms of the day and others will become obsolete or ludicrious as time goes on. Islam and its practitioners haven`t done a good job of keeping the religion pertinent to the demands of the ``modern`` society. They keep looking for answers in the past, a past which was glorious but has lost its lustre at the hands of the fanatics and the ``ulema`` who lead them. Unless the followers of Islam muster the courage to shed the baggage carried by Islam as a ``complete way of life``, there is little hope of it ever becoming progressive or even relevant.

aas: sometimes you get too verbose and your sentences lose coherence. Construction of long,well-crafted sentences in general shows a good command over the language but in your case the sentences almost get ``dyslexic``.

hamidm: As much as I enjoy your submissions, as for the last one....So nobody is perfect. Big deal...

Reply #: 35 ``If you go out more (not to party, necessarily) but to meet Muslims (both men and women), who have had more positive experiences, perhaps your views will be more balanced.`` - I have wasted 20 years of my life with every imaginable type of Muslim on the spectrum of Muslimhood - its time to jump off the rainbow. Go save yourselves first. People like me are just getting started. And we dont need messiahs and Ataturks- we will rip the sky`s vein for love and freedom . We will not wait for mehdi or jesus or moses for we will forge our destinies with our own two hands- hands busy building and healing while yours hands are busy twisting prayer beads and stoning adulterers.

Reply #: 31 ``feminism does not mean a man in a woman`s body manufactured for the express pleasure of men like you. `` I never considered women so. I have lived and breathed for them but I would never dream of thinking they were created for my ``express pleasure`` (I thought it was the other way round- I sculpt my body to hear ``cute ass`` ``purrr, your shoulders!`` ``yummy arms``; I live for the moments they enjoy my body) I just want to make them happy - I just want to make them feel special and loved. Feminism is great because it makes BOTH men and women happy. And what do you know about me using women for my ``express pleasure``? Last weekend, my condition made a grown woman cry while we showered ``Men and women are supposed to be together its not a sin!``. Do you have any idea what it is like to give your all to a woman and be incapable of orgasming yourself for weeks (even when you are alone)? Do you have any idea what it is like to have your body shut down sexually when you are naked with someone you have yearned for all your life? And you dared to suggest that I use feminists for my express pleasure?

Well you dared to suggest right! For I laugh in their presance just to see that smile on their face. For when they hold me I can not ask for anything more. Let me tell you what statement alarmed me most : ``feminism does not mean a man in a woman`s body`` That is what Maulanas decry feminism as: those feminists ``whores`` want women to turn into men: they want them to work, to vote like men, to cut their hair short like men, they want them to play and study the same things as men, they want them to invade a man`s world, they want women to become men. Hitler and the catholic church and Martin Luther (the anti semitic misogynist not the civil rights activist) said the same things about women and you say the same things. It is very alarming. Somehow you think that an aggressive, working woman, an educated woman, an athletic woman (who can jump swim and dance and scale mountains without fearing veils or the ``lustful`` eyes of strange men) a woman who can fight and talk and stand shoulder to shoulder with a man: his companion, friend and lover is a ``man in a woman`s body manufactured``? Why? What is a woman then? one who sits in the house and sows and cooks and cleans all day? one who dies from rotting bones, from veils and lack of sunlight? who dies from stoning and lack of love? one who mass produces and hen pecks children and husbands? Wait I know this woman: it is the woman of the past! it is a Muslim woman! If the woman of the past is where you want to take all feminists too then this feminist is not moving an inche! (han ji! main tu yahan say aik inch nahin hilnay wali!)

- wanna-be-feminist

Reply #: 31 ``women deserve to be treated with respect and caring even if what they do is housework and child rearing`` - I do not want to disrespect or not care for women like that. My mother is that kind of a woman and I wish I could stop caring for her. I hurt for her and fight for her- I ask her to chuck it all and go back to college (this time to get a real degree not a Mrs. Degree) to become independent and strong.

My mother`s reaction: ``You want to treat your mother like a Nokrani (servant) after years of pain and tears in raising you, you want me to go to work? these are my years of rest (she is 45) and taking care of my grandchildren! next thing you will want me to go to nursing home like all these europeans and umrikan parents are treated so that I can dance and date like all these europeans and umrikans?`` I love my mother.

What is to be done about women who willingly don the yoke of submission? What is to be done about the women who willingly surrender their minds and bodies to a cult and to the patriarchy? What is to be done when a woman surrenders her freedom, when she makes years of education worthless? Whats to be done when a woman then says: I LOVE my state of slavery and ``misery made beautiful`` (not unlike the slaves who refused to leave their masters after the abolition of slavery) Freedom and independance and struggling for equality requires strength, it requires responsibility, it requires vigilant work. What is to be done when a woman (due to her ``brought up``, or because of her community, religion or culture) decides to prefer sitting on her tuckus and shopping (while mian ji works his arse off) ? The question is : what is the WORTH of the (high) opinion (their opinions of arranged marriage, of submission, of the patriarchy and of husbands who let them sit at homes warming their eggs) of these women ? As long as a woman enslaves herself to salvage herself what can her thoughts (and opinions) be worth? thoughts borrowed, thoughts unoriginal, thoughts enslaved, thoughts forced into shape by an age old religion and patriarch, thoughts so similar to their co religionists (in its hatred of non muslims, in its superiority complex, in its visciousness) that they all seem clones of each other (borgs!). I remember this speech by a purdahfied girl in urdu: ``I am intelligent too! I am a human being too! please dont ignore me! it is my RIGHT to submit to my god [mind you, nobody ever stopped her- unfortunately] you should respect me! you should not look down upon me! you are the ones who are going to hell! how dare you ignore me ? how dare you look down upon me? [who did?] you should be sensitive to my feelings when I obey my god and beat my children for not praying! you should be sensitive and appreciative of me when I go around in 90 degree heat in an overcoat and scarf! you should be appreciative of my love and sense of self sacrifice and duty and motherhood when I am lying in a hospital bed beaten to a pulp (because I submitted to the right to beat, given to my husband by my lord!) As if being a mother of 15 kids was not hard enough you want me to start working in a factory now like those laborers and mechanics? It is not easy being a mother you know! its as hard as building a rocket and transporting man to the moon! Neil Armstrong had a mother too you know; I said I want to be a mother & test my equipment I did! but I need all the attention in the world for mass producing and caring for the mujahideens of the local mullah who BTW is the real father ... I could just die for his khutbas! wouldn`t you?``

This is the typical assault of the conservative: *Step 1: become overly defensive (ohh gawd I do NOT have a husband who beats me! all arranged marriages are not unhappy! all slavery and submission is not that bad) So people try to be sensitive and let the conservatives be. *Step 2: seek pity (I have a mind too! I have creativity also! please dont ignore me! please care for me! do you think I am a plain woman? why oh why do you not notice me?) So people start becoming softer and start approving: ok you are beautiful, you are not plain, you are creative and I am sure your life of servitude is a lot of fun. *Step 3:Act like you dont give a sh_it (Ha who needs you? I exist and am happy by myself! and no regrets! I love my Allah and my Mian Hazoor) People: ok honey its a free country do whatever you want. *Step 4: Attack! ``But don`t you see how miserable and lonely YOUR western lives are? you like a woman only when she goes down on you hanh ? sex, fun, pleasure all the time hanh? no praying crying and repenting and self-flagellation hanh? look at your divorce rates, look at your crime rates, look at your imperialist- colonialist - rate, look at your ``your are too white`` rate. ``

The believers refuse to live with the consequences of the choices they make: if you choose to be different, if you choose to be a violent, abusive, primitive puritan who refuses to give love then EXPECT appropriate treatment. You shi_t on us and then expect us to praise you for it? You hate us for we are whores and sluts and immoral and godless and dirty and infidels and diseased and criminals and non/ex muslims- but you want US to love you for being so pure and perfect and complete and divine and for your enslaving ways and for persecuting us? Just because YOU may love a life that is a test and a pain and actually worship the One who makes it a test and painful for you, you expect us to do the same? We are different. You made us different from you- when you pushed us away as the ``damned`` and the ``hell bound`` and the non/ex muslim ( we are different in atleast we dont whine about: ``oh I am so pure and virtuous and motherly and yet you do not love me like you love and respect that white whore of a woman who goes around making music, flying spaceships and managing companies``)

solitude:

I would have normally attributed your rantings and ravings to lack of class or breeding or both but I have a feeling that that`s not the case. Maybe your`ve had a really bad experience that has caused your value-system to go bonkers. Most good looking desi women I`ve come across (in the same city as you) seem to be extremely high-maintenance(intellectually as well as emotionally) compared to their gori counterparts(and unfortunately as you pointed out they don`t give head either :). Any heartbreak suffered at their hands is inconsequential my friend. There are too many fish in the pond. And if you want to keep blowing your money do drop me a line.......I`d love to take your money :)

``There is a vindictiveness pulsating in the modern feminist. She wants revenge. She needs to show (men) in a bad light in order to have her point heard. ``

She is NOT a feminist my dear whatever. She hardly qualifies as a modern woman forget feminist; feminists don`t get married and they love making love to any man they want. I would like my sisters and mothers to become feminists.

This is the thing with Muslims in general and most people from the subcontinent : we dont understand words like : feminism, freedom, equality etc. Try saying to a Muslim/Pakistani : thank god the USA has basic freedoms. ``Aray! what you saying brother? you want freedom to rob banks? you want freedom to committ adultery? you want freedom to murder?`` This is Submission`s definition of freedom. Forget feminism. I remember reading a story in ``Bachon Ka Jang`` (Jang for children). It was in urdu so I will paraphrase and translate: ``I walk into Dukan (shop) to buy NaAN (bread) and I see VCR and people watching half naked woman dancing on TV. Is this what Pakistan has become? watching Indian movies? Is this what freedom has turned into Pakistan? we do not deserve freedom`` That is the typical line of the submissive people who love martial laws and dictators and divinely ordained kings (caliphs). We have no concepts like Love, Freedom, Justice (our version involves a lot of stoning, cutting of hands, feet, curcifixion even) FORGET feminism. I LOVE feminists ... I imagine them to be aggressive, hyper intelligent, those who rally and stand shoulder to shoulder with me, who don`t hesitate when showing affection, who talk about the most obscene things and keep me alive with the most shocking antics imaginable. Feminists are beautiful - feminists are to die for- no! correction: feminists are to live for! to live and drink and breathe for! It will take another millenium for our women to come close to feminism (thanks to our men who have managed to turn it into an insult).

If the author wants to insult any man it is the men who are realizing that puritanical women with marriage, children, cooking and cleaning on their mind are complete bores. It is a common reaction to the threat most women feel from the more courageous women who love easier, who are better educated, who have passions (like helping humanity by becoming doctors or scientists, or becoming rock stars/ movie stars) instead of ``I want to be your housewife! I want to make you Garam Masala Chat House Special Yum Yum!``

``Honey YOU are my garam Masala- I wanna eat you baby!``

``Allah Tobah Tobah if anyone hearing your bad words what they saying? and thinking I panch-waqt Namazi and not like those other girls, ok? hanh ji! Samajh Lo very well``

To the women I live for: You know you could do better, its not the looks, its not the color, its the attitude that makes people beautiful (if only you can get away from the things that hold you down). What attitude would you rather have : Would you be a housewife or would you be everything? Would you sit around the house in the name of cooking, cleaning and watching children ? or would you rather love and play and break every imaginable boundary? Would you rather be passionate and LOVE and create and succeed? or would you rather waddle around the house like a fat hen with 15 chicks pecking and haggling you?

To Reply #: 24: I am new to America and stop telling me to go out (as though you were my mother or cared about my love/social life). I go out every night (this is NYC baby!) I spent $3300+ on new years eve & my weekend spending alone avg.s to $300+. I have stains on my right pant leg (near my thigh) from the dinner napkins (and some very kind and aggressive women). This is a typical Pakistani/ Desi insult hurled at anyone who writes on the internet ``get a life...`` or ``go out more`` implying anti-social elements in the writers, as if you had an inkling of an idea about the colors that shake my nights.

Ref rajanjua #: 122

You said {But he can confirm it from experts in

Dehli and Lucknow, i.e., ofcourse if there are any left.}

Come on. Even you REALLY can`t believe that Muslims have been exterminated in Hindustan or that Arabic and Urdu are banned! And of course the Jumma Masjid is intact (unlike Babri Masjid!)

You say {Some cross-fertilization may help in this regard, but I wonder if our ladies would like last names like NahsaPahasaMahasaPadillan.}

The ladies would have a choice of Muslim, Hindu, Sikh, or Christian husbands. So their names are not going to be THAT long. However, you need to keep this information for future use: In Tamil, ali means eunuch. Those Tamils and the neighboring Telugus are the ones with those long names. Now, aren`t you glad that you guys didn`t get Hyderabad? Imagine you guys taking the train to Hyderabad and everybody snickering when you tell them your names!

{Well why not? Better than Abdullah :-). }

I asked for - and you said - Abdmullah!

Re: #120 gymnosophist

``Not being knowledgeable in Arabic, Gymnosophist solicits your help to learn how to conjugate Abd with Mullah for future use. On reflection, he thinks that would be a better name for certain types of folks than the name Abdulla.... with which he has absolutely no quarrel.``

Raja Amir Janjua thinks that Gymnosophist is being modest. With his amazing gymnastics in sophistry-surely he knows how to conjugate Abd with Mullah- Its Abdmullah :-). But he can confirm it from experts in Dehli and Lucknow, i.e., ofcourse if there are any left. Some cross-fertilization may help in this regard, but I wonder if our ladies would like last names like NahsaPahasaMahasaPadillan. Well why not? Better than Abdullah :-).

hey Uzma,

its maheen - i lost your email address - would love to chat with you if you email me at maheenmirza@hotmail.com -

maheen (from karachia)

Ref rajanjua #: 119

You said {Ladies pack up your bags-Many suave charmers await you in the ancient center of civilization and culture :-). }

Surely, you don`t dispute the fact that Delhi, Lucknow and the surrounding country has been historically the center of Urdu culture.

I think it is time for some cross-fertilization. (A strictly straight face is being maintained by Gymnosophist here.)



You say {Gymnosophist-May his wisdom and wit prevail ;-). }

Not being knowledgeable in Arabic, Gymnosophist solicits your help to learn how to conjugate Abd with Mullah for future use. On reflection, he thinks that would be a better name for certain types of folks than the name Abdulla.... with which he has absolutely no quarrel.

Re: #118 gymnosophist

``Gymnosophist recognizes that it is necessary to bait some of the people on this board to make them see their lack of clear thinking. Isn`t that how a good philosopher teaches -- by constantly challenging people`s basic assumptions?``

Raja Amir Janjua appreciates the constant source of amusement known to Chowk as Gymnosophist-May his wisdom and wit prevail ;-).

Ladies pack up your bags-Many suave charmers await you in the ancient center of civilization and culture :-).

Maybe Hamidm can come up with a list of pros and cons for such a move.

Ref rajanjua #: 115

You say {After reading my response again, I realize that there was nothing gracious about it. Sorry for being so impolite-I got carried away. I have been hanging out with gymnosophist too much :-).}

Gymnosophist recognizes that it is necessary to bait some of the people on this board to make them see their lack of clear thinking. Isn`t that how a good philosopher teaches -- by constantly challenging people`s basic assumptions?

However, he is unfailingly courteous to the Pakistani ladies because they do not get into religio-political arguments. (And, boy, are they intelligent!) He only wishes that these ladies would move to Bombay or Delhi and find good husbands who would treat them better than as invisible sidekicks.

Gotcha there, didn`t I? ;-)

Uzma:

It has been a long time since I visited Chowk and your poem happened to be the first thing I chanced upon. I know the debate is over but this is just for the record.

I was listening to NPR the other day and a commentary by a woman about her marital life had a different perspective on the same issue. She believed her relevence in marriage had become secondary to the routine life they were living. Doing the chores, job, kids and after the end of the day some quiet time in fron of the TV with her husband. But, she believed, she then realized that it was the content of that moment, when she was watching the TV with her husband, was what she wanted.

But, that`s just her opinion of course. The point is, we are all different and should not judge people from a lense of our own creation.

Temporal:

The essay on `nothing` was written by this farigh-al-auqaat nakara :)

On Sukayna:

I had never heard of this version of the history. Not that it may not exist, just my jehalat. Time to hit the library again.

On Religion:

It`s tricky subject guys. Like quicksand, it`s possible to sink into it so quickly one can never know what happened. As can be witnessed here. :)

Enough to say that I`m content with my system of beliefs and expect those who differ to do the same.

And as long as we are being formal...Luckhnow style...

Kornish baja lata hoon :)

Rehan Rizvi.

Re: #112 Uzma

After reading my response again, I realize that there was nothing gracious about it. Sorry for being so impolite-I got carried away. I have been hanging out with gymnosophist too much :-).

I hope you have a nice trip.

Regards,

Amir Janjua

Ref temporal #: 113

You say: hickies galore:)

I guess THAT is one good reason for the burqua!

Amir (re 110):

You know, I sometimes forget what a privilage it is to be able to dictate how one desires a reconciliation... and when i get caught up in other issues, i forget what a liberal environment i am studying the world from... i feel quite silly for having made that comment (and perhaps a bit humble)... thanks for pointing that out so graciously... *smile *

im in karachi right now, and the moment i got on the plane to fly over, i noticed the difference in terms of the manner in which i was treated by men, etc. so, your point was illustrated quite effectively. :-)

temporal:

any hiccups yet?

-adaab arz-hai. :)

Re: #106 Uzma

``I realize that reconciliation of many issues in Islam is necessary...and it is good to discuss them (ad nauseum, if necessary)... and as PM has explained to us already, the focus of this response arena has been transformed from women to Islam... which, if you notice, is usually a quick jump made in most of our discussion forums... i also think it is safe to say that in the minds of most people responding on chowk, there is still a burning inferno when it comes to any reconciliation between women and islam, which i believe is the driving force behind this constant flow of words. perhaps the reason many of the women (you asked about earlier) aren`t responding is because they have already reconcilied these issues for themselves, and really dont need to go on and on about it...at least not in this forum - whereas, the men still need to. this is ofcourse, my biased opinion ... and i consider the possibility of being entirely wrong. but, there`s only one way to find out.``

Some of us confused men are not trying to blame everything on religion, but rather at the use/abuse of religion as a weapon of exploitation against women. It might be easy for you to have reconciled with all the inconsistencies, but I am afraid neither the Afghan women nor the hundreds of Pakistani women in jail under Hudood Laws share the luxury of the liberating environment at U. Penn.

winks & grins,

Amir Janjua

gymnosophist #99

``Is this a debate about religion or a debate about women`s rights? Should anyone even attempt to debate rights for women? ``

``One girl practically single-handedly overthrew society`s rule. That is the power of determined women.``

You presented a very touching and apt example. However, the answer to your questions is ``A debate about religion and womens rights is still relevant and yes, people should attempt to debate it.``

The answer should be yes as long as millions of Afghan women suffer from brutal `interpretationitis` of Islam. Even determined women in difficult or intractable situations need support from others. A quote(without permission) from Uzma`s original poem which is particularly apt:

``We speak similar languages,

but do not communicate.``

Sadhana

Re: #102 PM

``The liberals, whoever they are, must tackle the issue on their own terms, not by seeking scriptural affirmation.``

Looks extreme even for liberals-But yes, this is the only way to go. A complete separation of church and state.

Gymnosophist:

``Let PM and others worry about how to reconcile the role of women with Islam. The time for reconciliation is long past. It is time for women to do as they please.``

here, here! :-)

I realize that reconciliation of many issues in Islam is necessary...and it is good to discuss them (ad nauseum, if necessary)... and as PM has explained to us already, the focus of this response arena has been transformed from women to Islam... which, if you notice, is usually a quick jump made in most of our discussion forums... i also think it is safe to say that in the minds of most people responding on chowk, there is still a burning inferno when it comes to any reconciliation between women and islam, which i believe is the driving force behind this constant flow of words. perhaps the reason many of the women (you asked about earlier) aren`t responding is because they have already reconcilied these issues for themselves, and really dont need to go on and on about it...at least not in this forum - whereas, the men still need to. this is ofcourse, my biased opinion ... and i consider the possibility of being entirely wrong. but, there`s only one way to find out.

PM:

*grin * wow, this made it to the 100 plus club... do i get a free turnip twaddler now?? ;-)

(thanks - although, i think this discussion had a life of it`s own, and had very little to do with me, per se - still a humbling thought).

temporal:

a triple please. *grin *

(aah - very clever)

CORRECTIONS TO MY POSTING:

``I Ain`t the Right Kind of Feminist``

By Cheryl L. West

gymnosophist said in reply #98:

``Was it Gloria Steinem who said, ``Women are the niggers of the world``? Well, whoever it was, she got it right.``

I disagree with you-- she did not get it right at all. This quote was challenged a long time ago when Alice Walker responded:

``If women are the world`s niggers, then the black woman is a nigger nigger.`` Alice Walker.

``Alice Walker brings light to the oppression of

black women... In writing about black women, Walker brings to life people who are doubly caged within the confines of both their gender and their race.`` -Jennie Barrett-

``The Combahee River Collective, a black feminist organization, states: women of color

experience these oppressions [racism sexism] simultaneously. The only people who can afford not to recognize this are those who do not suffer this multiple oppression.`` Loving in the War Years; -C. Moraga-

Such a quote fails to communicate the ``experiences which divide us as feminists... the incidents of intolerance, prejudice, and denial of difference within the feminist movement.`` This Bridge Called My Back; Moraga and Anzaldua.

_________________________________________

I close with excerpts from the poem:

``I Ain`t the Right Kind of Feminist``

By Cheryl L. Wes

First off I`m too confused

Secondly you know my blackness envelopes me

Thirdly my articulateness fails me

When the marching feminists come by

I walk with them for awhile

and then trip over pebbles I didn`t see

My sexist heels are probably too high

I`m stuck in the sidewalk cracks

Oh where Oh where has my feminism gone...

Don`t you know its chasing after my

blackness

Somewhere in the white sea

I`m in the movement

No chile

I`m not talking about dancing

I`m in the liberation movement...

yeah, I`m talking about South Africa

and Aparthied

No I did not say you were fit to be tied

I am a woman

You are a lady

We are sisters in the movement

It`s about neapolitan ice cream

Mixed and oh so sweet

It`s not about white and sterility...

Oh where Oh where has my blackness

gone

Don`t you know it is chasing after Ms.

feminism

Somewhere in the white sea

I belong to a conciousness raising group

I have rhetoric

I am a sociologist

I study race, pride, sex, class, humanity

I also make mention of all the ``isms``

I am a feminist

Well I am a sister

I am fluid in the dozens

I study us

I study urban renewal

Which includes my bathroom roaches

and my kitchen mice

and the animals down at Public Aid...

Tell me about the man that has filled my

belly

and ten others with babies

Come share with me sister feminist

Let us dance in the movement

Let my blackness catch your feminism

Let your oppression peek at mine

After all

I ain`t the right kind of feminist

I`m just a woman.

(1983)

CATS, DOGS, WOMEN AND ABU-HURAYRA.



``Abu Hurayra came from the Yemeni tribe of the Daws. At the age of 30 the man named Servant of the Sun was converted to Islam. The Prophet gave him the name `Abd Allah (Servant of Allah) and nicknamed him Abu Hurayra (Father of the Little Female Cat) because he used to walk around with a little female cat that he adored. But Abu Hurayra was not happy with this nickname, for he did not like the trace of femininity in it: ``Abu Hurayra said: `Don`t call me Abu Hurayra. The Prophet nick-named me Abu Hirr (Father of the Male Cat), and the male is better than the female```. He had another reason to feel sensitive about this subject of femininity-he did not have a very masculine job. In a Medina that was in a state of full-blown economic development, where the Medinese, especially the Jews, made an art of agriculture, and the immigrant Meccans continued their commercial activities and managed to combine them with military expeditions, Abu Hurayra preffered, according to his own comments, to be in the company of the Prophet. He served him and sometimes ``helped out in the women`s apartments.`` Umar Ibn al-Khattab, who was well known for his physical vigor and who awoke the city every day to say the dawn prayer, disliked lazy people who loafed around without any definite occupation. He summoned Abu Hurayra on one occasion to offer him a job. To his great surprise, Abu Hurayra declined the offer. `Umar, who did not consider such things a joking matter, said to him:

``You refuse to work? Better people than you have begged for work.``

``Who are those people who are better than me?`` inquired Abu Hurayra.

``Joseph, the son of Jacob, for example,`` said `Umar to put an end to a conversation that was getting out of hand.

``He,`` said Abu Hurayra flippantly, ``was a prophet, the son of a prophet, and I am Abu Hurayra, son of Umayma(his mother)``.

It is not wasted effort to us to tarry over the personality of Abu Hurayra, the author of the Hadith that saturates the lives of Muslim women. He has been the source of an enormous amount of commentary in the religious literature. But he was and still is the object of controversy, and there is far from being unanimity on him as a reliable source. The most recent book about him, jointly published by a Lebanese and an Iraqi firm, is a tribute written by one of his admirers who devotes no less than 500 pages to defending him. `Abd al-Muni`m Salih al-`Ali gave his book a rather eloquent title:``In defense of Abu Hurayra``. It was obviously a success since a new edition was published in 1983. The author begins by asserting that ``the Zionists and their allies and supporters have found another weapon against Islam; it is to introduce doubt about the narrators of traditions ... and especially about those who were the source of many Hadith.`` This gives an idea of the intensity of the controversy surrounding Abu Hurayra. What is certain is that Abu Hurayra, long before Zionism, was attcked by Companions of his own generation. He had a very dubious reputation from the beginning, and al-Bukhari was aware of it, since he reports that ``people said that Abu Hurayra recounts too many Hadith.`` Abd al-Munim, to his credit, cites all the incidents in which he was strongly challenged, including by those other than Ayesha. He assures us that ``Umar Ibn al-Khitab did not say that ``the worst liar among the ``muhaddithun`` (narrators of Hadith) is Abu Hurayra.`` He disputes the claim that Umar threatened to exile him, to send him back to his native Yemen, if he continued to recount Hadith.

Umar Ibn al-Khattab, who enjoyed an unparalleled influence on the Prophet and the Muslim community of yesterday (and still does today) because of his prestige as a man of politics, his boldness in military matters, his strong personality, and his horror of lying, avoided recounting Hadith. He was terrified at the idea of not being accurate. For that reason, Umar was one of the Companions who preferred to rely on their own judgement rather than trust their memory, which they considered dangerously fallible. He was very irritated by the facile manner in which Abu Hurrayra reeled of Hadith:`` Umar al-Khattab,``, we can read in al-Asqalani`s biography of him, ``is supposed to have remarked as follows about Abu Hurrayra:`We have many things to say, but we are afraid to say them, and that man there has no restraint`.`` According to Ayesha:``He is not a good listener, and when he is asked a question, he gives wrong answers.``

Abu Hurayara, for the three years that he spent in the company of the Prophet, would accomplish the tour de force of recalling 5,300 Hadith. Al-Bukhari listed 800 experts who cited him as their source.

Among the many gems of Abu Hurayra:

``The Prophet said that the dog, the ass, and woman interrupt prayer if they pass in front of the believer, interposing themselves between him and the qibla.``

According to Ibn Marzuq, when someone invoked this Hadith in front of Ayesha, she answered them:`` You compare us now to asses and dogs. In the name of God, I have seen the Prophet saying his prayers while I was there lying on the bed between him and the qibla. And in order not to disturb him, I did`nt move.``

gymnosophist:

I`m wondering whether I should spell out my position on the issue(s) discussed more clearly, or continue tak