Twosome Troubles of Troublesome Two

Ref concerned #: 36

You want to know (`India now counts as a major producer of illegal opium`

i no longer live in india, and have not seen doordarshan in ten years, but i was still not aware of the above allegation. i don`t question the veracity, merely ask for the source.)

Well, here is a direct quote from the CIA`s World Factbook that summarizes data on all the countries of the world, from the sheet on India:

Illicit drugs: world`s largest producer of licit opium for the pharmaceutical trade, but an undetermined quantity of opium is diverted to illicit international drug markets; major transit country for illicit narcotics produced in neighboring countries; illicit producer of hashish and methaqualone; cultivated 2,050 hectares of illicit opium in 1997, a 34% decrease from 1996, with a potential production of 30 metric tons, a 36% decrease from 1996.

The URL is:

http://www.odci.gov/cia/publications/factbook/in.html

Do I hear from anybody cries of `the Foreign Hand`, just because I quoted from a CIA source? I am sure those interested in finding a more reliable source than the CIA could do a web search on drug production and find out what the status of India is.

Re: rajanjua Reply #: 43

Minor Correction

``Arya Bhatt -Mathematician-supposedly gave the concept of zero.``

Bhaskara (Ujjain) gave the concept of zero and also -ve numbers. AryaBhatt (circa 470 A.D.) who was from kerala was most noted for his heliocentric theory.

rajanjua#: 43 (and also Ali)

well done,

So you do acknowledge that some of your ancestors are worth remembering. Now, educate me, do you study that in your school books? Why Pakistani history starts after arab and afgani invasions?

regards

Re: #42 friend

Panini (Mardan) wrote the grammar of Sanskrit

Chanakya (Taxila) historian, expert on strategic studies

Chandra Gupta Maurya (Chakwal) Defeated Seleucus at Khyber and regained Pakistan from Greek rule-Founder of Maurya Empire

Ashoka (Grandson of Chandra Gupta Maurya)

Arya Bhatt -Mathematician-supposedly gave the concept of zero.

ali1 #38

thanks for acknowledging that majority of indo-pakistani (and bangladeshi ) muslims have origin in this land (and have hindu ancestors).

But, just enlighten me, do study history that talks of when these people were rajputs, jats, pundits, gujjars and other non-muslims. Do read of their architecture & life style. Why don`t you find any heros from those ancestors of yours. Is none of them good enough for you to remember?

Waiting for your answer

your friend

rajanjua #35

My reply #31

``The post was addressed to Sadna who makes a point of writing the word ``jehadi`` at least once in most of her posts. And although she is correct to point out the dangers of Islamic fundamentalism- I believe that fundamentalism is harmful in any form, whether christian, jewish, islamic or hindu. I would do injustice to generalise the nation of Tagore as a fundamentalist nation, but I would like to point out that your present govt. comprises of Hindu fanatics-people like Advani and Vajpayee-The peace and security in the region does not lie in eliminating the fanatics in Pakistan alone. You must also look in your own backyard``

It may interest you to know that the word `jihadi` is being increasingly associated with Pakistan outside India, too. Another difference I see here : India fights propaganda wars, Pakistan fights proxy wars. When you hear of `Hindu fanatics` fighting armed battles inside Pakistan, we will resume this discussion.



Just FYI.

http://cnn.com/ASIANOW/time/magazine/2000/0117/india.hijackingreview.html

Excerpt:

``...At the very least, Pakistan has exposed itself to criticism for tolerating Islamic militia groups like Lashkar-i-Tayyaba and Azhar`s Harkat ul-Mujahideen, which has been listed as a terrorist organization by the U.S. State Department. ``These groups have become so autonomous that the government,despite its best efforts, has not been able to exercise very tight control over their activities,`` says Rifaat Hussain, chairman of defense studies at Islamabad`s Quaid-i-Azam University. Much of the Pakistani public supports Kashmir separatism, and any crackdown on militants would be political suicide. But allowing free rein to Azhar could prove even more dangerous to the regime of General Pervez Musharraf, who overthrew an elected Prime Minister in October ...``

...

``Azhar himself recognizes the need for circumspection. ``The media coverage of this hijacking put a lot of pressure on the[Pakistani] government, and it wants us to keep a low profile,`` he told Time in Karachi last week.``

(End excerpt)

So he went on to `circumspectly` talk of 500,000 mujahids when he reached his home town Bhawalpur. Interesting..

Sadhana

PS: I never got an answer to the question : where is the Pakistani Foreign Minister of 3 months ago?

Rajanjua #35

``And as far as choice of posting material is concerned- I think it is none of your bloody business- I think I was making a valid point.``

Here you go again. None of the business on this board is a ``bloody business``. however, this is a public board and if you are posting something, you make it every reader`s business.

I could have hit below the belt by saying that it is not Pakistan where public opinion can be supressed, but no. I will only advice that like every other thing on earth, India has many positive points. Perhaps we can live in harmony if we concentrate on positive points rather than digging negative information and crying in the middle of the road about that.

BTW, read Dawn of Feb 99. It writes ``Hindu VHP opposes Bajpai`s visit to Lahore``. And you call him a ``hindu fanatic``. you deserve some medical help.

regards

Alil and rajanjua

SPIRIT OF CHOWK

The image on the chowk home page, if you look carefully include a person firing AK47 in the far corner. That is the spirit of chowk, that is the essence of south asia, the confusion, the chaos , the passion, the profound and the profane that creates the rich tapestry called life. Dont let the fingers trip of the trigger. Left to the `scholars`, they would turn chowk into a morgue, clean, antiseptic, organised, but dead, all neatly stashed away with complete references, correct punctuations, totally sterile and of the past.

RE: GYMNO # 23 ``...tracing your roots to Arabs and Mongols...``

Where did you get the idea that Indian Muslims/Pakistanis want to trace their roots to Arabs and Mughals? RSS literature I guess.

Indian and Pakistani muslims are a mix of local tribes, dalit and otherwise, that converted to Islam and migrant muslims from Arabia, Iran, Turkey etc. My home division Rawalpindi, aka Pothowar, is probably a Rajput majority area with several large Rajput clans (Dhanyals, Janjuas etc., Gen. Asif Nawaz was one famous son), one large tribe of Iranian origin (Kayanis, Justice Kayani, may his soul rest in peace was one of them) and one big tribe of Arabian origin (Abbasis, Shahid Khaqan Abbasi, ex-chairman of PIA, now of Nawaz treason trial fame). None of them has ever claimed roots which are not really theirs....except for maybe in RSS literature.

Punjab has a huge number of Jatts (Wasim Akram is a Jatt) and the along with Gujjars and Arains (Zia-ul-Haq was one) form the bulk of Punjabi population. They don`t claim Arab ancestry...but then there is RSS literature.

Sindh again has a large number of Rajput tribes (Junejos, Qaimkhanis), a substantially large clan of Gujrati origin (Memons) and numerous Baluch tribes (Jatois, Zardaris, Jamalis, Lasharies etc.) and Pathans in Northern Sindh. They don`t claim to be Arab migrants.....but maybe RSS......

Baluchs have settled in Punjab (Legharis, Mazaris)and Sindh apart from Baluchistan and Pathans have settled all over the country as well as in India. Did RSS tell you that they came from the Arabian peninsula?

Mohajirs have rajputs (Rao, Qaimkhanis), pathans (several MQM leaders, Aamir Khan, Babar Ghouri look more ``pashtun`` than people in Afghanistan), Memons and a mix of other castes and tribes from UP, Gujarat and Bihar.

The whole country has a sprinkling of Syeds, Quereshis, Siddiquis etc. some of them real, some of them fake. First of all, their number is small, and secondly lots of them actually have their roots in Arabian ancestors. Syed Ali Mardan Shah (Pir Pagara), Pervez Mussharraf, Syeds of Medina, district Gujrat in Punjab are a few among the many examples.

Unlike Hindus where your name tells your caste, sub-caste, district, village and street address (South only) Pakistani names, specially the new generation`s are like Wasim Akram, Azhar Mehmood, Waqar Younis, Shoaib Akhter. This doesn`t mean that Wasim wants to deny his roots or the fact that he is a Jatt. It simply means that he wants to show his disgust/rejection of the inhuman caste system and wants to be respected for his own self and not his ancestary and caste.

Difficult to explain to a Brahmin I guess but I will try. When the Jatts and the Rajputs and Kashmiri Pundits and the dalits etc. embraced Islam, they left their ``castes`` behind, call this denying the roots if you like.

Ali

RE: narain #: 32

I agree with you, there is absolutely no need for normalization of relations between Pakistan and India. Positively none.

Pakistanis have no reason to talk to a nation of retards, which has repeatedly elected rabid fanatics like Vajpayee, Thackray and Advani to power and believes in their half-truths and outright lies not just about Pakistan and muslims, but about christians, pope, history, geography, ambedkar, ayodhya, bangladeshis....you name it.

``Their one point agenda has always been to destroy the Indian state...``

I never knew this. Are you sure? specially about ``always``? I would be extremely happy if Pakistan has this agenda even this late. Every nation has the right to seek destruction of its evil enemies. Just like US sought destruction of USSR under communism and Allies sought destruction of Germany under Nazis, Pakistan must seek destruction of India under Brahminism.

Evil empires like USSR, India, Nazi Germany and inhuman & unnatural systems like communism and Brahminism must go. Sooner the better.

Ali

gymnosophist:

`India now counts as a major producer of illegal opium`

i no longer live in india, and have not seen doordarshan in ten years, but i was still not aware of the above allegation. i don`t question the veracity, merely ask for the source.

Re: #33 friend

``what are you trying to prove by quoting articles from other sites. Are you trying to stereotype all Indians.``

Not trying to prove anything, my dear Sir-Merely expressing that ignorance and idiocy occurs on both sides of borders. The post was addressed to Sadna who makes a point of writing the word ``jehadi`` at least once in most of her posts. And although she is correct to point out the dangers of Islamic fundamentalism- I believe that fundamentalism is harmful in any form, whether christian, jewish, islamic or hindu. I would do injustice to generalise the nation of Tagore as a fundamentalist nation, but I would like to point out that your present govt. comprises of Hindu fanatics-people like Advani and Vajpayee-The peace and security in the region does not lie in eliminating the fanatics in Pakistan alone. You must also look in your own backyard. There is no doubt that in certain Indian states such as Kerala, Karnatka and Andhra Pardesh, immense progress has been made-but your legislature is still dominated by U.P. and Bihar. Being an optimist I personally hope that in the end it would be the positive influence/example of states like A.P and Kerala which would take states like U.P and Gujerat out of their slumber-but if I were an Indian I would`nt count on it and work towards it to insure it. Reading the posts from Indians on this board it seems to me that they take this for granted.

And as far as choice of posting material is concerned- I think it is none of your bloody business- I think I was making a valid point.

Ref narain #: 32

You say (I think that there is nothing which is going to come out of attempts to normalize relations with pakistan. It is stupid for India to even try. Please note Mr UdayKumar that I am not one of the ruling elite of India, and this conclusion that I have reached has nothing to do with the pain of partition or sense of hurt brotherhood. Hey, for me partition is just a word. Both the nations are separate and have been so since I know. No-this conclusion is the result of the long journey Pakistan has taken from Bombay to Kargil to Kathmandu, and lately to printing false Indian currency. Their one point agenda has always been to destroy the Indian state and bring us down to their level.)

Well, it is the aim of every country to bring down its perceived enemies by fair means or foul. In fact, I am sure Kautilya would have devoted several chapters of his book on statecraft, the Artha-Shastra, to these goals. If Pakistan seems more goal-oriented compared to India, blame it on the idiots we have in our External Affairs Ministry.

So, what prevented IA from deploying its own security check system at Kathmandu? Try boarding an El Al flight in New York and see what REAL security is. You guys are playing around, pretending to ensure security. Dont try to excuse the pathetic process employed by IA.

Regarding the currency, you guys can start printing really safe currency like Australia has done with plastic currency instead of paper, or Canada with currency that cannot be duplicated by modern copiers, or the US with its newer secure currency. Or, like Ecuador is trying to do, declare the US dollar to be the official currency of India. Then, you will at least get the highly professional US Secret Service chasing after the counterfeiters. The additional benefit is that all the black money put away in Swiss banks because of currency convertibility issues will no longer be sitting in bank accounts but will return to India for re-investment.

You say (Sorry! But talking peace with Pakistan is like trying to reason with a rabid dog: nothing but bad can come out of it. Let Pakistan show that it can do more than export terrorism and drugs around the world.)

Oh, get off your high horse. After years as the most responsible producer of licit opium for medicinal purposes, the entire police system has been so trashed that India now counts as a major producer of illegal opium.

Really! You ought to get out of India and spend some time outside and see how you guys look to others.

Stop believing Priyadarshan... oops, I mean Door Darshan... soon to be renamed Sonia Darshan.

Rajanjua #20 writes

``What baffles me is the following nonsense-Please explain- ......``

Rajanjua,

what are you trying to prove by quoting articles from other sites. Are you trying to stereotype all Indians.

If you want to visit, I can quote you offical pakistani sites where it is written that ``Niazi didn`t agree to surrender. Rather it was a hindu-russian conspiracy that replaced a cease-fire agreement with surrender agreement just before the ceremony``

You will find other sites that say that Bangladesh massacare never happened. Very reluctantly they agree few hundreds, than few thousand deaths.

Still other sites where presence of Indian army in Kashmir is quoted 2 lakh, than 4 lakh and now seven lakhs.

What I want to say is if you find garbage at other sites, ask for their rationale at those sites. Don`t ask people on this site provide you answers.

Regards

I think that there is nothing which is going to come out of attempts to normalize relations with pakistan. It is stupid for India to even try. Please note Mr UdayKumar that I am not one of the ruling elite of India, and this conclusion that I have reached has nothing to do with the pain of partition or sense of hurt brotherhood. Hey, for me partition is just a word. Both the nations are separate and have been so since I know. No-this conclusion is the result of the long journey Pakistan has taken from Bombay to Kargil to Kathmandu, and lately to printing false Indian currency. Their one point agenda has always been to destroy the Indian state and bring us down to their level.

Sorry! But talking peace with Pakistan is like trying to reason with a rabid dog: nothing but bad can come out of it. Let Pakistan show that it can do more than export terrorism and drugs around the world. Let it demonstate that it is a responsible state and not some Sudan-wannabe. Then-maybe-we can sit down and talk.

-narain

rajanjua #14

Re Taj Mahal and what is it originally was.

I have seen this before and it is a RIDICULOUS theory in my view(as it is in yours, I`m sure).

It also proves my statement. Some in India consider their ancestors to be the vanquished and present-day Muslims to be held accountable. That is their reason for hatred(which I reply to similarly as I reply to simplistic statements on this site). My puzzlement still stands, if history is so simple, why would the victors hate the defeated?

About fringe theories, they will surely exist in a nation of many million. There are two important differences I see between Indians and Pakistanis.

No Indian Prime Minister will be quoted in the New York Times abusing Muslims, as Pervez Musharraf was quoted soon after the coup abusing Hindus and blaming his country`s hostility to his hatred of Hindus dating from the trauma of Partition. TNT or anything else, 130 million Indians are Muslims and they will remain Indians whatever you guys think or say. Both LK Advani and IK Gujral migrated from Pakistan, they can never express hatred for Muslims in public and expect to get away with it.

By the same token, Indian policy cannot, in its own self interest, reflect hatred of Muslims as another race. Also about policy, India is not claiming to give any group in Pakistan moral and diplomatic support based on a huge complicated foundation of ethnic hatred. Bring up Bangladesh by all means. Inspite of all the rhetoric, India has not changed its ultimate goal of seeking normalization of relations with Pakistan.

Coincidentally, I have been sent this reference so here is a relevant quote from this opinion piece:

http://www.indiavotes.com/elections/news/feature259.html

MV Kamath

``here is a story told about B. K. Nehru who, at various times has been Governor,Ambassador and official in the Government of India. In 1948 Nehru was Joint Secretary in the Finance Ministry. It was his habit every morning to read the Muslim League newspaper Dawn whose sole function, then, was to abuse India and the Hindus in the most vituperative language without any rhyme or reason. Every morning as Nehru would read Dawn, his blood would boil at all the false charges about persecution of Muslims in India levelled by the paper. In disgust Nehru one day asked Mohammad Ali, who was then cabinet secretary in the League Ministry of Pakistan why Dawn was indulging in the hatred campaign against India with the obvious support and encouragement of the Pakistan government. Mohammad Ali knew that the charges made against India were demonstrably false. To Nehru`s questioning, Mohammad Ali`s reply was as simple and straight as the man himself. He admitted that the charges as printed in Dawn were false. But it was necessary to make them, he admitted, to build a new nation of Pakistan. He said the people of Pakistan were diverse. There was nothing to bind them together except religion. They needed anexternal enemy to keep them together. And who else could the enemy be except India and Hindus? Nehru asked how long Pakistan would need this external enemy and how long would it take to consolidate Pakistan. Five years, came the reply. This conversation took place fifty years ago. Pakistan continues to remain fragmented and hopelessly weak. To keep it together it requires to keep the Kashmir issue alive and it would go to any extent to keep the hate-India fires burning. Taken aback by his one-time I. C. S. colleague`s casual reply, Nehru asked him whether he had ever thought of what would happen if India took up the same line against Pakistan. After all, said Nehru, India was five times larger than Pakistan, had all the money, manpower and talent. To that riposte, the story goes, Mohammad Ali started laughing. Intrigued, Nehru said: ``Why are you laughing? Have I said anything funny?`` ``No`` replied Mohammad Ali ``I am not at all afraid of that``. ``Why?`` ``Because`` Mohammad Ali retorted, `` your religion is incapable of fanaticism``.

....

The author identifies India`s acceptance of Pakistani tactics with Hindu philosophical acceptance of invasions. I am not so sure.

Anyway, my point finally is that India has a lot more going on than merely actions dictated by hatred of Pakistan. All I`m saying is: give me some reason to say the same for Pakistan.

Sadhana

Zeemax #59 from `Ikeesween Sadi Dastoor`

Do I detect satire? Even if I do, I was wondering, I bought a KL Saigal and `old melodies` CD from EM Pakistan last year(in a store). Does EMP exist any more? I`m sure it owns the rights to many of those songs. Secondly, surely the movies are easily available(if any of those are movie songs). Just as an aside, EMI or HMV India was pretty sluggish and unenthusiastic until the mid 80s when an enterprising newspaper vendor? in B`bay called Gulshan Kumar started selling re-recordings and then the boom began and they woke up.

Gnostics #64 from the same board

Just for the record, noone need restrain themselves in any way as far as I am concerned.

Sadhana