Pakistan in the Year 3000

krashid #289

The references given to me were:

www.thefridaytimes.com

Opinion section.

From the article by Ejaz Haider, I included only the introduction in my chowk.com post. The article by Khaled Ahmed ``The Grand Deobandi Consensus`` can also be found there. I thought I included the whole article in the post, I may be mistaken.

Sadhana

Sadna#287

A very well researched article by Khalid Ahmed.

You left it half way.

Can you give reference, so that I can get it.

tvard #284[Earlier, Gnostic #279,tvard #276 & 277, Zeemax#266]

tvard, in answer to your question, nothing. It`s just that in response to Zeemax`s #266, your ``Grow up``, response, and the tone, sounded uncalled for in view of the spirit in which Zeemax seemed to have written #266.

I am sure you noticed that I dealt with the `doings` of the Muslims in the Indian history that I, as a muslim, of sorts -- after a fashion, as it were -- abhor. Can`t blame a Hindu if s/he feels as //I// do. Since I cannot change history, I can, at least take serious note of the episodes, the behaviour, the socio-cultural ``doings`` of the Muslim invaders that I do not like or support. SameerJB has already done that, in various posts,in a manner more eminent than I could ever dream to acquire or master.

If you, in reading history, [in the exams of which you started writing before readindg the exam questions, (you too? I thought I was the only one. And, I had the same teacher, you had.)], you must have felt revulsion [if you read it in micro- mode], and anger. Some days ago I read a post here, I forget by whom, informing the readers of Zaheer-ud-Din Babar`s Will left to Humayoun. Fine. But also read his Tuzak-e-Babri or, better yet, Humayoun Nama. Babar was fond of ordering ```towers``[piles] of heads`. He did that in Bhera, also, which was mentioned in the Babri Will post.

I do not think that the Hindus keep that anger or information superordinate in their minds all the time. These kind of things remain burried in the subconsious stratum. That`s why I think that Hindus are not against Muslims, or Islam, per sé. Not at all; just the subcontinental muslims which, looked at this way, becomes a political `hatered` rather than religious. You don`t agree with me. fine. I respect that. I don`t agree with you either, if you don`t see the reasonableness in my analysis.

Re: 276, again, there is always room for misunderstanding in communications of these type. If we recognize it we shall be less of an unhappy being.

Because of my personal, uncontrolable, circumstances I am confined to the Bilal Musharraf board. Please get in touch please, any and everybody, who wishes to inter-act on that board.

Best wishes and happy thoughts,

A Gnostic

In reply to gymnosophist #279 :

Mulayam Singh Yadav was spouting sentimental nonsense. When US aid meant to fight the Soviets in Afghanistan is being used against India, then why should India extend a helping hand -- to shoot itself in the foot ? Any such help would go towards more bombs and more Kalashnikovs. No thank you !

I would have no objection to non-governmental organizations extending helping hands across the border. This kind of help can make an immediate difference in the life of ordinary people, and is difficult to put to uses inimical to India. But it is precisely that kind of interaction that the politicians, of either side, try to kill.

-arun gupta

gymnosophist #283

In an starry-eyed idealist period, I too applauded Mulayam Singh Yadav`s idea. When Advani was asked about this suggestion(he is someone I distrust very deeply), he said, its meaningless to lend money which they will use to fight India in Kashmir. I realised this is a very real possibility which is practically impossible to rule out. It also likely that India would be accused of trying to buy them out or of attempting `economic hegemony`. For the current rulers in Pakistan, everything is `phalana-thikana` until they are given what they want. If one can find a way to deal separately with the Pakistani people and their rulers, it would be different. However, even under Nawaz Sharif, a mutually beneficial deal for buying Pakistan`s surplus power could not come through.

Sadhana

Going back to `dumbos` and `smarts`:

How relevant to Pakistan`s future is the unrelenting Pakistani angst about Hindus/India. Do Brahminism or idol worship or the plunder by invaders centuries ago supposedly `recalled` by Indians today influence Pakistan`s destiny more than concepts like modern Deobandi interpretations in the policies of Muslims in Pakistan? Are not the issues discussed these articles a lot more relevant to ``Pakistan in 3000`` ?

www.thefridaytimes.com

Opinion

India-Pakistan: End of zero-sum game?

Ejaz Haider asks whether Pakistan`s pro-active Kashmir policy based on the forces of jihad is compatible with other more compelling interests

The grand Deobandi Consensus

Khaled Ahmed

The civil war in Afghanistan and the jehad in Kashmir have gradually veered to a Deobandi consensus. The dominant Hizbe Islami of Hekmatyar, a flag-bearer of modernist-Islamist thinking of Maududi and Hasan al-Banna, lost favour with the Pakistani establishment in the mid-1990s. In its place, the Taliban of Mullah Umar, trained in the traditional Deobandi jurisprudence, enjoy popularity in Pakistan. In Kashmir, Jamaat-e Islami`s Hizbul Mujahideen has been eclipsed by Harkat-ul-Ansar (Mujahideen) of Deobandi persuasion.

In a parallel development, the Wahabi or Ahle Hadith warriors have gained strength. The most

effective jehadi outfit based in Lahore is Lashkar-e-Tayba, functioning as a subordinate branch of Dawat al-Irshad, an organisation with contacts in the Arab world, collecting jehad funds among the expatriate Muslim communities in the West. It has training camps in Afghanistan and Azad Kashmir and is arguably the most resourceful militia fighting in Kashmir. It has contacts in Central Asia through its training camps in Afghanistan. Osama bin Laden has strengthened the old Wahabi connection with the Deobandi Taliban rulers. Some American sources claim that the Taliban amirul momineen, Mullah Umar, has married Osama`s daughter.

The third strand of fundamentalist movement which seems attracted to the Wahabi-Deobandi combine in Afghanistan, is the Naqshbandiya. Most of the Muslim-populated North Caucasian region in Russia follows the shrine-worshipping mystical order of the Naqshbandiya. The uprising in Chechnya and its incursion into Dagestan is turning the Naqshbandi followers to the more strict orthodoxy of the Saudi-based Wahabi order. Russian onslaught in Chechnya is transforming the mystical faith into a militant one.

Afghanistan has become the retreat of Central Asian Islamists fighting against their ex-communist leaders. Juma Namangani and Tahir Yuldashev have staged a fundamentalist revolt against Uzbekistan`s president Karimov and have sought shelter with the Taliban government after being accused by Karimov of trying to assassinate him in Tashkent. In 1999, Kyrgyzstan experienced a commando assault from these radicals along its borders in which some Japanese technicians were made hostage by them. Central Asian Islam has been traditionally Hanafi sunni with strong mystical colouring provided by the Naqshbandiya school of sufis.

In Afghanistan, the naqshbandi faith is represented by Sibghatullah Mujadiddi, Afghanistan`s first president chosen by the mujahideen in exile in Peshawar in 1989. Mujaddidi is a descendant of Sheikh Ahmad of Sirhind (d.1624), also called Mujaddid Alf-e-Sani, who led a mystical movement of purification under Emperor Jehangir and was greatly admired by Islamic revivalist movements in India. It is a measure of the greatness of Sheikh Ahmad that the Naqshbandis of Afghanistan, Central Asia, North Caucusus and Turkey are all Mujaddidi today.

All three movements, the Deobandi, the Ahle Hadith-Wahabi, and Naqshbandi-Mudaddidi (in India), are against bidaa (innovation) in Islamic rituals. They oppose the eclecticism that developed among Muslims under the Mughals and wished to separate local accretion from the pure Islamic faith. The founder of the Naqshbandi order, Shaikh Ahmad, compelled the Mughal king Jehangir to persecute the Muslim mystical orders that had developed a spiritual consensus with Hindus and Sikhs.

The other preoccupation of the Naqshbandis in India was opposition to the Shiite faith developing in the South of India and in the northern province of Oudh. Shaikh Ahmad had decreed that the Shiites were apostates and had to be put to the sword. Central Asia has been historically Hanafi and anti-Shiite, particularly because the rulers of Iran were mostly conquering Turks from Central Asia and did not favour its conversion to Shiism which they thought heretical.

Deoband is in district Saharanpur in the Uttar Pradesh province of India. The Darul Uloom seminary established here in 1879 by Maulan Abul Qasim Nanotvi concentrated on the instruction of the Quran, realigning the mystically inclined Muslim population with the basic teachings of Islam. Deobandi scholars adopted Shah Waliullah (1703-1762) as their spiritualpatron. Shah Waliullah is probably the most revered Islamic thinker among the Muslims of South Asia and Afghanistan. His ability to interpret the Quran and adjudicate among the various strands of Islamic jurisprudence was such that he declared himself a qayem al-zaman, a semi-divine personality given the mission by Prophet Muhammad PBUH himself to reform the faith. He travelled to Hejaz (Saudi Arabia) to learn the jurisprudence of Imam Malik and the other great jurists of Islam.

A renowned Deobandi scholar Maulana Ubaidullah Sindhi in his book Shah Waliullah aur unka falsafa quotes Shah Waliullah as writing that Prophet Muhammad PBUH ordered him in person that he should `bind` all the schools of sunni fiqh together and not reject hadith.

The great reformer then set out to combine the teachings of Hanafi, Maliki, Shafei and Hanbali Islam without denigrating any one of the schools. He was averse to accepting hadith, but in obedience to the Prophet PBUH, he selectively permitted the validity of hadith.

In Mughal India, this was tantamount to a revolution. S.M. Ikram in Mauj-e-Kausar explains how, from the progeny of Shah Waliullah, a new movement against bidaa (innovation) sprang up in early 19th century and was mistaken for Wahabism by the generality of Muslims of India. Shah Waliullah`s grandson Shah Ismail (1781-1831 AD) was attracted to Ibn Taimiyya (1263-1328 AD) whose teachings were also to inspire Abdul Wahab (1703-1792 AD), the spiritual guide of the House of Saud. This `confluence` gave rise to a new strict fundamentalism in India.

Annemarie Schimmel in Islam in the Indian Subcontinent tells us that Shah Waliullah in his youth was greatly inspired by the anti-innovation, anti-Shiite thought of Sheikh Ahmad Sirhindi. It seems that the antecedents of Shah Waliullah were derived from a Naqshbandi inspiration while his followers were inclined by his teachings to Wahabism. This sowed the seeds of a tripartite deobandi-wahabi-naqshbandi alliance that has now come into being.

In Pakistan, only one armed religious outfit called Tanzeem al-Ikhwan is active under the aggressive leadership of Maulana Akram Awan. Based on the mystical teachings of Shaikh Ahmad, the madrassa run by him in Chakwal is said to have close links with the army. In the investigations that followed the 1995 unsuccessful military coup in Pakistan, led by Islamist officers, his name is said to have cropped up in the list of the accused, but was allegedly removed from the findings because of his close army connections.

Asta Olsen in her book Islam and Politics in Afghanistan explains the historical Afghan connection with Darul Uloom of Deoband. The Afghan cleric was discouraged by the Khanate of Bukhara`s oppression to seek religious training in Central Asia. He sporadically sought training in Saudi Arabia and Egypt, but the most convenient source of learning for him became Deoband with its doctrinal closeness to the strict Islamic observance of the Arabs. Many Afghan rulers invaded India and headquartered themselves in the region now included in Peshawar and the Tribal Areas in Pakistan - the region claimed by Afghanistan as Pakhtunistan in 1947 after challenging the 1893 Durand Line.

Many Afghan princes fled civil war at home and sought refuge in British India, thus renewing contacts with the followers of Shah Waliullah. Peshawar and Nowshehra just outside Peshawar gradually became home to the most famous Deobandi seminaries after Deoband, training clerics for Jamiat-e-Ulema-e-Hind, the Congress ally that helped form a pro-Congress government in the NWFP in 1947, challenging the Muslim League of the

Quaid-e-Azam.

The clerics trained in these institutions are now powerful leaders of the two factions of Jamiat-e-Ulema-e-Islam (JUI), led by Maulana Fazlur Rehman and Maulana Samiul Haq, claiming strong links with the Taliban government in Afghanistan. In his book Unholy wars: Afghanistan, America and international terrorism, John K. Cooley reveals that Mullah Umar and Osama bin Laden first met in 1989 in a Deobandi mosque, Banuri Masjid, in Karachi, and presumably formed an alliance based spiritually on the traditional closeness of the Deobandis, who follow the Hanafi school, with the Wahabis, who accept only hadith under Imam Hanbal and Abdul Wahab. Thus the protection offered to Osama by the Taliban, and the threats delivered by Pakistan`s JUI leaders to American citizens in support of Osama bin Laden, seem to spring from a historical interface between the two schools of Islamic fiqh.

The non-Pakhtun population of Pakistan is predominantly Barelvi, following the Hanafi fiqh of Ahmad Raza Khan (1876-1931 AD) who led a successful revolt in India against the stringent teachings of Deobandi-Wahabi school of thought. The stronghold of Barelvism remains Punjab, the largest province of Pakistan in terms of population, but increasingly the state-controlled mosques are being given to Deobandi khateebs. Because of the rise of the Deobandi militias, and their funding by the Arabs for their anti-Shiite doctrine, the province is rapidly losing its Barelvi temperament. The Tablighi Jamaat which holds its annual congregation in Lahore has become a powerful influence favouring a Deobandi point of view. It gathers 2 million people in its congregation but it is important to note that over 90 percent of its attendants are Pakhtun from Peshawar and the Tribal Areas bordering Afghanistan. The President of Pakistan, Muhammad Rafiq Tarar, is a Punjabi Deobandi. The High Court of Lahore, influenced by the Deobandi Wahabi school, followed the Maliki doctrine in one of its verdicts in 1997 to deny the Hanafi practice of allowing girls to marry without the consent of their fathers.

The Afghan war pushed over 3 million Afghan refugees into Pakistan, which accommodated them in the Pakhtun-dominated areas of the NWFP and Balochistan. The Afghan youth trained in the Deobandi seminaries in these two provinces for over ten years later became the Taliban warriors of Mullah Umar. In their war with the Northern Alliance, the Taliban armies are constantly `replenished` by fresh Taliban from Pakistan, many of them now Punjabi. According to Ahmed Rashid in Foreign Affairs, over 80,000 Taliban have gone to Afghanistan to fight the Deobandi war against the Northern Alliance of Ahmad Shah Massoud. Recognition of the Taliban government by Saudi Arabia and Pakistan can be seen also in light of the `confluence` of historically anti-Shiite Deobandi-Wahabi spiritual coalition. This has pitted a Shiite Iran against them. After the Naqshbandi addition to this equation, the Central Asian governments too have joined the anti-Taliban reaction, with Russia at their back, and America inclining in favour of this formation because of Osama bin Laden.

Ummair

Re post#271

I agree with you that corruption & nationalisation were 2 important causes for Pakistan`s economic decline. India suffers from this scourge as well.

The Suharto family in Indonesia was probably as corrupt as NS & BB. However, the country did well economically. So that cannot be the only cause.

I think the main reason Pakistan is in a crisis is because of its ``addiction`` to foreign aid. The country has always lived beyond its means. During the cold war era, Pakistan got billions of dollars in economic and military aid. The Soviet aid that India got was mainly in military hardware.They didnt have the kind of economic clout where they could shower billions of dollars into the Indian economy.

Zia was extremely ``lucky`` that the Soviet Union invaded Afganistan.A president like Carter (whose foreign policy was more ideologically based) didnt help out Pakistan as much. In fact Zia called his aid proposal ``peanuts``. Then Reagan came along & turned on the spigot.Aside from Egypt & Israel, Pakistan was the largest beneficiary of the American foreign aid program.

On top of that, the wealthy Arab states also helped out Pakistans economy. Hard working Pakistanis also remitted money from the Gulf to Pakistan.

Unfortunately the Pakistan govt squandered that money.Instead of investing on infrastructure & nation building, it became dependant on importing most of its needs.

If I had rich relatives who would constantly send me money, I can buy a big house & a fancy car & feel I`m doing so much better than my neighbor. I should have used that money to go to college or start a business. I think thats what has led to this economic mess.

The decline started in the 90`s for 2 fundamental reasons. First, the cold war ended & American aid vanished almost overnight. Theres no sense complaining that Americans have treated Pakistan like a ``used condom``. Its common knowledge that every country`s foreign policy is based on ``interests``. Pakistan should have made hay while the sun was shining--but she didnt. I`m sorry, but if you act like a condom, you will be used like one.

Secondly,in the 90`s the Gulf was mired in recession & foreign remittances started drying up.

When the idiots BJP detonated the atom bomb,Pakistan lost a golden oppotunity. The rest of the world, especially America, begged you not to follow suit. But you did it anyway. Had it not, Pakistan would have prospered economically, the BJP would be licking their radioactive wounds & would have been kicked out in the next election.

To add insult to injury, there was a military coup. Foreign investors look for political stability & confidence in the people in order to risk putting their money in a country. Right now, Pakistan has lost both.

However, I believe Pakistan will come back from the brink. She is rich in natural resources. Most importantly, she is blessed with a very proud, hardworking, patriotic & resourceful people. All she needs are leaders with the will & guts . If Zeemax`s manifesto is adopted , the whole subcontinent will prosper.

Reply #: 279 Gnostics

``#277 notwithstanding, #276 indicates, does it not, the mindset of our Indian neighbors?``

When I was in school, I was always berated by my teachers for not reading the questions in my exams correctly. Looks like old habits die hard and I don`t think it warrants a couple of paragraphs of reflection on your part. Be that as it may.

What part of #276 bugs you? Hasn`t Pakistan has been a thorn in India`s side for 50 years? Does Pakistan have anything to show socially for it`s 50+ years of it`s existence. Why are everyone from Egypt to Jordan to Russia baying for it`s throat? Do you think Pakistan will take on all these countries AND India AND the U.S. and win?How come it`s only friends are Afghanistan and Sudan?

Why is it that whenever there is internal turmoil in Pakistan (as in Oct 1999), Pakistani troops cross over into India? Will Mr. Musharaff invite Mr. Mahmood Azhar, that great Kashmiri patriot, over to his house for a cup of tea?

Why is it that Pakistani officials run around from Turkey to the Middle East to China looking for friendship but portray India (which is the only country which affects it directly) as public enemy #1?

Given this, which part of Reply #276 bothers you?

Regarding all the views given by you as to why ``Hindus`` hate ``Muslims`` they are pretty much along the lines of what I read on most Pakistani boards, so there`s nothing new. 130 million plus Muslims living in India points out the fallacy of your argument. By the way, there are more Muslims living in the sub-continent outside the country carved out purportedly for Muslims. Get a clue.

Ref Gnostics #: 279

After the nuclear tests by Pakistan and the imposition of sanctions by the US, one Indian politician -- if memory serves me right it was Mulayam Singh Yadav -- suggested that India should offer financial assistance to the tune of $1 billion to Pakistan. A remarkably wise statement from a Cow-Belt politician.

Instead of this generous gesture that should have been offered in the spirit of fraternal unity, we had Advani and Khushabau Thakre spouting nonsense. Indeed an opportunity to demonstrate to the world that India and Pakistan stand together against the discriminatory CTBT, and to show Pakistan that we mean no harm to them, that our enemy is China was lost.

There probably would have been no need for the Lahore bus trip. There certainly would have been no Kargil.

I have disagreed with a lot of things my Pak brethren say here but, but for this reason alone, I refrained from commenting on the two boards about the hijacking of the Indian Airlines flight: the truth behind that hijacking is not going to come out for the next 20 years, if then. Anything we get from either side is propaganda. Yet, I found total vituperation based on supposition by all sorts of people.

There is no question that India could be more generous with all its neighbors on trade and similar issues. The average impact of such generosity will be perhaps $2 per Indian. India could certainly afford that and try to improve neighborly relations. The paranoia about China should be overcome not by bullying Nepal and Bangladesh but by building longer-range missiles so that the Chinese no longer try to provoke India.

Ref dost Mohhamad Malak #: 278

Dear Dost, I need your post to be translated into English for me. Any Indian from Assam, Bengal, Orissa and the four southern states sufficiently disagrees with the Cow-Belt not to learn their language of Hindi/Hindustani/Urdu!

PS. I do recognize dost to mean friend!

Gnostics #279

``I`m glad it hurts`` was meant for those who were trying to threaten me, not for others, certainly not for you.

Another contradiction to note down for posterity, by me, at least!

We can call Hindus/Indians cowards who raise their hands in fear of the strong and fight only the weak, who never came to help when Arab invaders came calling many centuries ago, who lost all wars ignomiously, we can threaten them with `isharas` and try to teach them `aqalmandi` when they try to talk to us, but we will also berate them for not taking all this quietly, not being `forgiving`, `tolerant` and `understanding`. We will claim moral upper ground at all times and carry a sense of injury after our every excess, but we will call Indians pious and sanctimonious whether they do or donot choose to reply.

If you still don`t get it, its not my fault. But here is someone who is not going to grant it to you `all ways`. As an Indian, I cannot be cowardly, hegemonistic, forgiving, treacherous, tolerant, understanding, haughty, oppressive, all at the same time, sorry. Even if we consented to being all this just to help you all out, which exactly of your problems would be solved?

Sadhana

PS: It may be of interest to read this weeks Friday Times opinion pages, I was referred to this by someone. `The Deobandi Consensus` and another by Ejaz Haider? are interesting. To me, they offer hope not because of their contents, accurate or otherwise, but because they have been written at all. Are these articles accurate?

Dear Mr/Ms Gnostic,

Hum log ishaaron per nahin nachte !

Your notion of a reasonable or polite request is

absurd. If you want to extrapolate from an appropriate response to an implied threat to a civilizational conflict then go ahead, be my guest.

-arun gupta

Dear Mr/Ms Gnostic,

Hum log ishaaron per nahin nachte !

Your notion of a reasonable or polite request is

absurd. If you want to extrapolate from that to a civilizational conflict then go ahead, be my guest.

-arun gupta

#277 notwithstanding, #276 indicates, does it not, the mindset of our Indian neighbors?

Pakistan and, the Pakistanis abroad, were going through a crisis in October of 1999, and what did we get from our expat neighbors, the educated, civilized cream of the country? Sympathy, joining up of the forces, some common cause as a `sucked-dry-of-blood` third world nation? Some dr`guzar, ignoring of some real or perceived, putative wrong doing, at a time of monumental loss, confusion and even disorientation of the neighbor?

No. The `holier-than-thou`, and `we`ll crush you`, and `you are dirt` refrain started from day one, and continues till this day.

Well done, ae neighbors. I am a person of very cool temperament and consider well before I speak my mind. I speak today only because I am now convinced, after three months` ``observation``, that I must speak my mind.

Now listen, I have seen and, experienced, the religious hatred and it is my considered judgement that in the Hindu mind there is a very deep-seated hatred for the `sub-continental` Muslims. I do not feel that the hatred is against Muslims or Islam per sé, but the Indian Muslims are in a `special` category in the Hindu mind. Perhaps, for the following reasons:

1. Muslim invaders - outsiders - looted, and destroyed their sacred temples, and slaughtered the citizenry indiscriminately.

2. Muslims ruled India for a very long time, and all through their rule remained outsiders; never mixed.

Even under the best of times, they took Hindu women, out of their marriages, or when widowed by the Muslim rulers themselves. Their husbands slain by Muslims!

3. A majority of Muslims were converts from the lower castes of Hindus themselves. Lower castes, many of which were `untouchables` became part of the muslim rulers!

3. They slaughtered Cows, the Gaoo Maata and ate its flesh!

4. In recent decades they broke up Maha Bharat, the Bharat/Dharty Maata, the Akhand Bharat. In this, they colluded with the British, another scourge for India.

The list can be extended and most of the situations above explained but only partially.

So, the Indian Muslims (pre-1947) can be absolved of some `rascality` through such explanations, but not all. Some historical facts cannot be `explained away`, let alone denied from having happened.

My point in all this is that it is the Indian Hindus who have to be more understanding, more forgiving, more tolerant so far as the sub-continental Muslims in general and Pakistanis are concerned. India being a larger nation, and now in an advantageous position, they can afford it. But if they can write only such comments as ``I am glad it hurt you``, in response to a, what I considered to be a civilized request, with also,a trace of humor, then the ``other side`` also can come back with an unimaginably vast vacublary and vituperous venom. What`s the use.

I have seen preachings of tolerance by India`s Hindus, of course, but I have also noticed at the same time, that this tolerance is not even skin deep. For instance, I noticed - occasionally - one individual with such sermon, bhashan, here and there and it gave me good feelings, and yet it is the same person who came with an ``I am glad it hurt you`` comment. No amount of thoughtless cruelty can, I think, match the hurt it caused ME; I was not the target of this comment!

I repeat, Indian Hindus can afford to be more tolerant and in a position to empathise with their grievously pained neighbors. Let`s see them do it, AND, let`s see it reciprocated.

Zeemax:

Back in ancient times I saw a book on economics of Pakistan. Curious as to what you ``Coll `G` ate`` guys read, I opened the book. I gathered that economics was a ``science`` about ``stocks``. Every page of the book had some kind of ``stock``. Rolling stock, live stock, in stock, out of stock, stock inventories, and on, and on, and on. So, I put that book down and never picked it up again.

When your essay, under review, appeared I saw that it was on, or, about, IMF! Alas, I don`t know anything about Money (never touch the stuff!), national, international, or personal. So, I rarely visited the site. Today, I visited it and saw #276. I had earlier seen your post to which #276 was a response. I was profoundly hurt. #277 appeared while I was writing this post, but it made me feel hurt further, becaused it demonstrated that the basic, raw material, of understanding was there all the time. It was just elected not to be used. How painful!

In all this I had one thing at the back of my mind: On //these boards// most Pakistanis were almost embarrased, and even apologetic, at the stupidity of Kargil. And were pained at the, later, political upheaval in the country. I felt that this called for the neighboring Indians` extending of a helping hand: i.e., by helping in rational analysis, a word of encouragement, a suggestion for economic, industrial and political progress and development. Not a ``hand out`` but extension of a hand of support and friendship.

Instead, what I saw was, over a period or three months or so, an unending series of vituperous exchanges; so full of poison (``vitriolic``) that I find myself unable to choose the group for the award of a medal for most cruel revilement, scathing invective and denunciation of the other. Or, perhaps they need more space than the existing posted essays. Open any essay, the title doesn`t matter. The contents are: who is more of a scoundral , nay, an SOB!

Achha ab hum chalté hain, Ciao

Your friend

A Gnostic

``Reply #: 276 tvarad``

``Reply #: 266 Zeemax``

I misread Zeemax query so let me add to my previous post as to what India should do. It`s actions should be more sensitive towards it`s neighbors. If you`re walking next to an elephant and the elephant turns around suddenly it will alarm anyone even though it may not be threatening.

The Bajrang Dal/RSS/Shiv Sena cadres are doing as much damage to India`s reputation as the Jamat/Harkat and others are doing to Pakistan`s. Their tails need to be cut by bringing the full weight of the law to bear on them for their misdeeds in the name of Hindu nationalism. India`s strength is it`s diversity and no ``one size fits all`` solution exists. Indians can be proud of their Buddhist, Islamic, Christian and Muslim heritage. The only ones who shafted us in history were the British who stuck one end of a giant vacuum cleaner in the sub-continent and the other end in Britain and sucked and sucked for 300 odd years. Yet we don`t have enmity towards them (not that I advocate it now). So why enmity towards ourselves?

All of the people of the sub-continent are fighting the same battle which is to better ourselves amongst venal and corrupt politicians and vested interests who will exploit any issue to their advantage. When I write about Azim Premji of Wipro or Narayanmurthy of Infosys, I do so to highlight the tremendous obstacles that they had to overcome that were placed in front of them by the very people who claim to be looking out for India`s interests. Those of us who took the easy way out and emigrated rather than face these difficulties should admire them for that more than their achievements. That is why we should have more people to people contact amongst the people of the sub-continent. We will then realize that we have more in common than we have differences.

Reply #: 266 Zeemax

``Dear kulsoom, tvarad, krashid,

Have you thought together we are 1.15 billion people ? That`s more than the entire european union and USA combined. That`s even more than China. Our people have the best technical and literary knowledge as has been proven many times over. Why can`t we stop fighting and become one to be a respected entity in the world of today ?``

Grow up. Don`t keep justifying the reason for your creation. India is not out to get you despite what your leaders say (the average Indian is more interested in roti, kapada and makaan). Shed the complex that makes you compete against India (Canada isn`t less Canadian just because it`s next to a giant). If you still want to compete, do so in the areas of industry, education, social emancipation and not in bombs and bullets.

Don`t try to homogenise your population by ``Islamising`` the country. Respecting your diversity doesn`t make you less Islamic.

Lose the misfits and malcontents of the Islamic world who have congregated in Pakistan. They are causing more damage to Pakistan than to any other country they are waging jihad against.

Above all, make your peace with India. If Canada declared a perpetual war with the U.S., guess who would lose.

Reply #: 271 Umairr

``tvarad: #263 ``We now have Azim Premji of Wipro who has a net worth of $18.9 billion.``

Amazing!! Is this guy really worth over 18 billion dollars? This would put him in the top ten wealthiest people in the US (the wealthiest Indian in Amnerica is worth around 4 billion) What business is he in? Is his company(s) listed on any of the US stock exchanges?``

Here`s the link:

http://www.economictimes.com/030200/03lead03.htm

Wipro is a conglomerate with it`s hands in everything from cooking oil to software. It isn`t yet listed in the U.S but I believe there are plans afoot to do so.

You blame the slowdown of Pakistan`s economy on Z.A.Bhutto`s nationalization drive and the collapse on BB and NS. However, do not forget that the whole world was going through a leftist phase where even countries like Britain and France were nationalizing some of their industries.

As for BB, NS and the 90s, I doubt that ANY leader can run Pakistan with whatever mandate he or she has from the people since there are too many vested interests who will not let go of their pound of flesh. The main culprit is, of course, the army with it`s insatiable appetite for resources. Given such a scenario, any leader who comes to power will have a natural tendency to line his/her pocked before being thrown out of power.

Re Indians vs Pakistanis in US unis

In my uni there are around 50 indian PhD students in engineering, but no pakistanis. However, in the professional MEng programs (1 year, fee paying) there are pakistanis as well as Indians. I reckon the quoted 3:1 ratio will be far less favourable to pakistan if it were not for these fee paying students. So far I have yet to meet a pakistani student here who won a scholarship.

This is not to say that they do any less well here compared to Indians. As a TA I have read thru many of my pak students` assignments, and I was struck by the quality of work. Well reasoned, laid out, in fact, typically Indian...

And it did start me thinking why there werent more of these guys here. I assume its cos there are few serious S&E institutes in Pakistan.

xxabbu