International Monetary Fund (IMF) __ Friend or Foe?

...Question...?

why is that ..all the developing nations who have followed the IMF`s prescriptions about their economies.....in a deeper mess then before...?

that is before following IMF`s prescribed policeis...Most of them were doing Ok..

Dear Zeemax:

I am glad to see your piece on IMF. Its obviously been here for some days and I`m a bit late in this discussion, so I shall only make a couple of off-the-main-subject observations.

First, if memory serves me, Mansur Al-Hallaj was stoned to death. Please be careful following in his footsteps as the tolerence levels have not improved by much. I don`t mind your `getting stoned`, but not with rocks.

Second, when did you start going to Raiwind`s gatherings? And are the young talib-i-ilms still being groped and molested by the mauzzins and the haafiz-shaib? Is this Raiwind-wards drift a change of heart from the days of old? Do I still get to meet your good friends, Mr Jack and Mr John, of the Danniels and Walker families, when I visit you next time?

Third, please email me as I have deleted (inadvertantly, of course) your address.

...SR

Dear Zeemax:

I am glad to see your piece on IMF. Its obviously been here for some days and I`m a bit late in this discussion, so I shall only make a couple of off-the-main-subject observations.

First, if memory serves me, Mansur Al-Hallaj was stoned to death. Please be careful following in his footsteps as the tolerence levels have not improved by much. I don`t mind your `getting stoned`, but not with rocks.

Second, when did you start going to Raiwind`s gatherings? And are the young talib-i-ilms still being groped and molested by the mauzzins and the haafiz-shaib? Is this Raiwind-wards drift a change of heart from the days of old? Do I still get to meet your good friends, Mr Jack and Mr John, of the Danniels and Walker families, when I visit you next time?

Third, please email me as I have deleted (inadvertantly, of course) your address.

...SR

To All Indian readers of CHOWK including RDesikan
Reply # 27, please read the following:

From The News International Thursday January 20, 2000

With enemies like us

By Lt Gen (retd) Asad Durrani

India and Pakistan must be each other`s best friends; except that they
do not know that.
Very often when in trouble, one has been bailed out by the other. Come
to think of it, but
for India`s founding fathers, there might not have been a Pakistan--if
the Congress had
accepted the Cabinet Plan for instance! The favour was returned in 1962.
The Chinese had
them in a bind, but we resisted the temptation. Without doing much harm
to their core
interests, we also helped them shake up a little in a war three years
later. The mutual rescue
has gone on for ever.

We had royally bungled it up in what is now Bangladesh. There may have
been other,
better, ways to get out of that mess. When we didn`t, the Indians jumped
into the foray. De
Gaulle had once said he loved Germany so much, that he was happy there
were two of
them. India`s affection for Pakistan is perhaps in the same vein. It
must be wondering now,
if creating another nemesis on its eastern front was that good an idea.
And just when we
were wondering how best to take care of the gross imbalance that ensued
the 1971 divide, a
Congress government paved for us the nuclear path. Anxious to be as good
neighbourly,
the BJP, at the first available opportunity, helped us to the prized
nuclear status.

In the early 1990s, as soon as it became the sole superpower, the US
went for us all guns
blazing. The charges ranged from drug peddling and nuclear deceit to
abetting terrorism
and promoting radical ideologies. If we recall, it was again the BJP
that provided some relief.
Its goons demolished the Babri Mosque and the world had to take notice
of some
non-Islamic fundamentalists as well. Within a day we paid back for the
goodwill. Task
forces led by ministers and chief ministers destroyed scores of temples;
and not only the
Hindu ones. The Saffron marched on.

Indeed the BJP can never blame us for ingratitude. For all the good that
it did to us at
Ayodhya and Pokhran, we helped its sagging fortunes by grossly
mismanaging Kargil.
True to the pattern, when we were all tangled up with Kargils and
military takeovers, the
good old neighbour made such a hash of the plane hijacking, that we were
about to start
looking good. (Our poorer cousin in the West actually did.) But of
course we could not let
our twin suffer alone. True to our genes, we went for an oral
counter-offensive that sank us
to the Zee level. While some of us must be happy that we responded to
the Indian spins
with our seams, the others should ponder over the wisdom of always
having to match the
big brother blow for blow.

Bailing out the other side, when it is in a spot, is indeed not what we
have in mind when we
undertake a venture. If anything, the guiding principle is: invoke the
Almighty`s wrath for
the archrival; hopefully, the self would get away with lesser penance.
Well, that is what the
enemies are there for. Too bad it backfires every now and then. But
then, so argues our
side, hanging tough is the only thing that works with India. Perhaps.
But shooting with the
mouth, or in one`s own foot, does not work with anyone. More
importantly, it merely serves
the Indian game plan.

Tension in the area may not be in India`s interest. But if it harms us
more, as our adversary
is convinced that it does, it would obviously forego a small gain for
our bigger loss. In fact,
if we know our neighbour well, to deny us even a minor relief it would
be willing to suffer
much more--on Siachen, for example. A very sensible formula to resolve
this dispute,
agreed upon in Islamabad in July 1989, was rejected a few hours later in
Delhi. ``Keep the
temperature high``, may well be the scarlet thread of India`s Pakistan
policy. In its execution,
we have been remarkably helpful.

Dialogue between countries like ours serves a number of ends. It helps
both sides to take a
good measure of each other. Given a chance, it might even resolve an odd
problem. Its main
benefit however, lies in the availability of a mechanism that can
prevent crises from
aggravation. The adversaries do not get friendlier just because they are
communicating, but
they do become less edgy. During the cold war, many such instruments,
some of them little
more than debating forums, served that purpose. Even the `hot` Vietnam
war had a
negotiating track running parallel to it. One may well argue that if
reducing tension was not
in line with the Indian aims, they would spurn all attempts to start the
process, and scuttle it
if it ever got under way. Yes, but by insisting that we must talk and
resolve Kashmir first,
we are making it too easy for them. Why not listen to BJP! Like always
it is so keen to help.

When Vajpayee says the time was not ripe to talk about Kashmir, he does
have a point.
Only when the Indians were convinced that their hold on the area was no
longer tenable,
would there be a chance for a negotiated settlement. For that the ground
has to become
more favourable. Those who repeat ad nauseam that there was no military
solution to such
problems, conveniently forget that ultimately all issues were resolved
`politically`. The
military, or the `militancy` in this case, just helps in creating the
right environment.
Vajpayee, of course, is not waiting for that time. He is merely
following the grand design: as
far as possible, avoid the dialogue. Once, when India might have been
willing, true to our
tradition, we let it off the hook.

If we ever have to talk seriously to each other, we have to resolve a
dilemma. India believes
it cannot be seen seriously talking about Kashmir. Pakistan, on the
other hand, could not
talk, without at least seen to be seriously discussing it. In August
1997, pushed by their
political leadership, the foreign secretaries of the two countries found
an ingenious
solution. It was called the `composite approach` to take care of all our
problems in a
package. It was in fact a `multi-track, multi-speed` recipe, aimed at
resolving the lesser
problems without the complexities of Kashmir coming in the way. We at
once went on the
roof top and claimed victory: the enemy had finally been trapped into
talking Kashmir
(though on a slower track). The Indians found a perfect excuse to
wriggle out of the
arrangement. That the issues, major or minor, remain unresolved, is not
the point; but that
we once again failed to measure up to a task, most certainly is.

There are, however, times when the Indians too could be genuinely
interested in finding a
negotiation track, even if they have to take a bus to get onto it.
Lahore was actually about
preventing unintended nuclear launches. In our zeal to turn it into a
``breakthrough``
(another victory!), we cluttered it up with all sorts of road blocks.
One did not need a Kargil
to stop the bus in its tracks; the first round on Kashmir would have
done so. Hopefully,
someone is creating a link, even a clandestine one, that will be
activated before some other
one reached for the red button, in panic! What else is there to talk
about?

For a dialogue, even a superficial one, we are dependent on the Indian
goodwill; but for so
much else we are not. It was difficult for us to explode a nuclear
device all on our own, and
therefore it was wise to link it with an Indian test. The decision to
sign or not to sign the
CTBT can be made all by ourselves. Making it contingent on the Indians
doing it before us,
restricts our freedom of manoeuvre, and grants New Delhi a handle on our
decision making.
Similarly, if the Indians desire--of keeping Kashmir cool but the rest
bit a little hot--did not
suit us, we do not have to, yet again, oblige. If we cannot benefit our
people through
mutual trade, we need not put them to a greater disadvantage by
exchanging tirade.

Zeemax:

That was very gracious of you. And a tad unnecesary. The brunt of what I wrote was not directed at you.

Confession: am such a stickler for details that I would not equate millenium with `sadi`. That is me---- if I find hazara or hazarveeN distasteful I`d perhaps consider changing millenium to century. Anyways, that is passe for now.

rgds

t

PPS:

Oh, forgot to add this commercial break to the last post.

My latest creative effort is posted on my page here, under ``FINAL``
http://www.chowk.com/people/Tools/cc_printhome.cgi?temporal

rgds

t

..................HAIN AUR BHI GHAM ZAMANAY MAIN ..........

This is becoming an annual tradition of sorts.

I can take this only so much and then I have to speak up and let the gentle folks known collectively as the Chowk Staff know that they have finally woken me up from my slumber. (E’gawd. do they try hard?)

Since this has therapeutic values for me as well, please bear with me. (Am tempted to send a copy of this to Aliya @ your shifa clinic as well.)

Beef: Seeing more than one contribution by the same author on page 1.

Solution: Avoid it. If certain situations demand it, yank the old piece out of page 1. Send it to the ChowkMorgue underneath page 1 where we can go anytime to offer ‘fatehas’ and lay wreaths!

Beef: Check the headings and teasers for faux pas on page 1 at the least. (Like the Amir Khusrau AUTOBIOGRAPHY or MILLENNIUM and SADI more recently).

Solution: Set up a commission by a person no less than a retired Supreme Court Justice, or under exceptional circumstances, a retired High Court Justice, to enquire into this and recommend some quick fixes. Perhaps, an Executive Senior Vice President for Page 1? In addition to ceremonial robes, she should have the password to enter the guarded premises and quickly changes the offending words.

Beef: Creative HaraKiri: CRICKET REPORTS AND THEIR EFFECTS ON SUICIDE RATE.

Solution: Have one Cricket header on Page 1, say WIAGARA CUP, DownUnder.
The by line or the ‘teaser’ should indicate the last match covered. Each subsequent match analysis should be ADDED to the same article.

Alternatively, if interest merits it, add Cricket Analysis under FEATURED writings or under FAVORITES or in the yellow bar (that says chowk@two) or in one of the four slots above it.

Driven by a creative death wish that is uncontrollable, AND in the interest of peace, prosperity and harmony in the world, particularly in Kashmir, in the madresas, between India and Pakistan, in our homes, particularly in the rooms use for horizontal recreation, in Checheniya and other trouble spots, where real men are fighting dumbos (thank you, Hoodbhoy) I will be posting this interact thrice. Beginning with the most current article on IMF by Zeemax and continuing with the next two articles.
So help me God. (This last bit was an appeal, not a cliche! A dear friend is planning her wedding fall of 2001. She has ordered my presence at the wedding. And since skeletons can come out of the closet but are not known to walk........)

regards

t

PS Mofeez you do not come through as shoot-the-messenger type. But just in case.....I’ll hedge the bets and tell you that occasionally I do enjoy your comments. (the emphasis is on the 12 letter word in the previous sentence.) But too much of everything is........

PPS Zeemax: same as above.

Re: Krashid #96

As usual, you`ve missed my point. My point was that contemporary Islam has retreated inwards and is now all about how to make oneself a better Muslim. The answer is always: by discarding everything that is not found in the Koran. If I remember correctly, this was Maulana Jamaludddin Afghani`s basic idea back in the 18th century(or was it early nineteenth?). The Ummah has had the living daylights kicked out of it by every Kaffir that came along because God is no longer favoring us. Why isn`t he? Because we are no longer good Muslims. How can we become good Muslims? By abandoning everything that is not found in the Koran and the Sharia.

This is basically what Indian Muslims did after the fall of the Moghul Empire. They retreated inwards like ostriches (not that ostriches actually stick their heads into the sand). If we pray hard enough, maybe God will send his angels down to smite the kaffirs.

So you see, Krashid, this is a very old character flaw in us. Some argue that Islam breeds apathy and ignorance. I didn`t used to think so but now I am not so sure. I think that the tragedy of Islam is that it has never had a successful reformation. I suggest you take a look at the discussion on the Legalizing Alcohol forum for some interesting reading.

Re: Gymnosophist #98

Thank you for the clarification/correction. I simply remembered the outcome: Muslim Family Law overrules civil law. I did not remember the exact details.

Regards.

Re: My last post.

The line should read: Neither is there any one on this FORUM who would NOT argue that Muslims in India--as a community--are definitely less progressive, less interested in education, and definitely less interested in being economically successful if it means discarding their worn-out old dogmas.

Instead of: Neither is there any one on this post who would argue that Muslims in India--as a community--are definitely less progressive, less interested in education, and definitely less interested in being economically successful if it means discarding their worn-out old dogmas.

I apoligize for the errors.

A very revealing piece in The News of Sunday re the Kashmir Resolution of the UN. I reproduce it here for reasons of accessibility even though it is more relevant to the Manifesto board :

[..This preamble leads me to infer that those who need to read and don`t are more than likely to have missed an interview of M Yusuf Buch printed in the magazine section of Jang on January 23. For those who may not know or may have forgotten, there is no greater authority on Kashmir than Buch who has been involved in it from the very start. Since 1953, barring the five years that he was in Pakistan as Zulfikar Ali Bhutto`s special assistant, he has been at the United Nations. Every major speech made on Kashmir from the `50s through the `70s has had an input by Buch, if not entirely his work. His knowledge of Kashmir at the United Nations is encyclopaedic and his insights original. It is, therefore, important to know what his thoughts on Kashmir today are. Buch is just 24 years older than the Kashmir dispute.

Asked where the Security Council resolutions, the bedrock of Pakistan`s case on Kashmir, stood today, he replied, ``The UN Security Council resolutions have no importance at all. To date, the council has accepted 1,100 resolutions, out of which only two are important, both passed under Chapter 7, while Kashmir and the rest of the 1,100 were passed under Chapter 6 which does not oblige the council to take action.`` When reminded that Pakistan`s entire stand consists of the Security Council resolutions being implemented, he answered, ``This demand is unsound. When we make this demand, we are told that the Security Council has passed 1,100 resolutions. What is so special about those involving Kashmir?``

He went on to explain, ``The real thing is not these resolutions but the international agreement which formed the basis of these resolutions. Not all Security Council resolutions were passed with the consent of the contending parties. The Security Council resolutions on Kashmir were passed with the consent of India and Pakistan and thus they are in the nature of an international agreement. Our stand should be that we already have an agreement on Kashmir and if India wants to modify its position, it should enter into negotiations with Pakistan, the other party. As for the resolutions, they are no more than non-binding recommendations.``

Asked if it was true, as commonly believed in Pakistan, that pre-1958 governments had devoted greater attention to Kashmir, he answered, ``This is absolutely correct. The fact is that the Kashmir question became dormant in 1952 when Dr Graham began to prepare for a plebiscite. Pakistan objected that while India would be allowed to station 20,000 troops in the state, Pakistan would only have 12,000. Graham`s reply was that this question could be taken up after all arrangements for a plebiscite were in place. Soon after, Pakistan joined US security pacts and India took the position that these alignments had changed the situation. Nehru found a lot of world support for this stand, in the same way as Nawaz Sharif found it for his agreement with Vajpayee. Pakistan`s Prime Minister Muhammad Ali Bogra called Nehru his elder brother and Nehru took advantage of this and Kashmir was consigned to the cold storage. In 1965, if we had taken advantage of the Chinese ultimatum and continued the war for some time, perhaps in six months a plebiscite in Kashmir could have taken place.``

Buch told the interviewer that though he was unwilling to divulge any details, some people were working for a solution of the dispute. He recalled that he had asked Ghulam Ishaq Khan when he was president that he should set up a Kashmir committee of the cabinet because unless the army and the politicians joined their heads together and found a way out, Kashmir would remain unresolved. Nothing happened. Ishaq wanted to set up a Kashmir cell which Buch opposed because he believed that what he had in mind could not be accomplished by bureaucrats.

He was looking for quantum breakthroughs not inch-by-inch progress where officials fights over the placing of a semi-colon for six weeks. Talking about the mistakes made over the years by Pakistan in Kashmir, he singled out the Tashkent Accord which he is convinced should not have been signed because while the 1965 war was in progress, France initiated a move in the Security Council that after cessation of hostilities, an effort should get underway to settle all disputes between India and Pakistan. Tashkent overtook that initiative which remained stillborn. He believes that Ayub Khan did not consider Kashmir crucial to Pakistan`s security. He blames Ziaul Haq for having placed the Jamaat-i-Islami at the head of the Kashmir resistance movement, whereas it was the Jammu and Kashmir Liberation Front which had really fought for freedom. The Jamaat liquidated leading JKLF figures, men who were legends in Kashmir.

As for Simla, Yusuf Buch believes that it was only Bhutto`s genius that kept the Kashmir issue alive despite the massive defeat suffered by Pakistan in 1971. Bhutto did not agree to a compromise on Kashmir which a lesser leader would have found difficult to avoid. What I found significant was that Buch remained silent about the future, nor did he say anything about Kargil. Maybe by what he left unsaid, he said a lot.

Re: Behram B. Atashband #91

I am not sure I entire follow your reply to Gymnosophist. I seem to have lost the point of your answer. I thought Gymnosophist laid out his argument quite succintly. If Muslims form 12.5% of the population of India but make up less than 12.5% of its elite (however measured), this is not prima facie evidence of institutionalized racism in India.

I think there is no one on this post who would say that Muslims in India are genetically inferior to Hindus. Neither is there any one on this post who would argue that Muslims in India--as a community--are definitely less progressive, less interested in education, and definitely less interested in being economically successful if it means discarding their worn-out old dogmas. I fear that you are particularly ill-informed about the level of obscurantism prevalent in Indian Muslim (North Indian at least) culture. I am sure that you will disagree with me, but I would like you to look up the distressing particulars of the Saira Bano case. I admit, I was disappointed in the Indian Supreme Court`s asinine decision.

Why are there so many Parsis in IITs and so on? Why are there so many Jews in every Ivy League school in the US? Are they smarter? Maybe but most likely not. I think they come from families that stress the importance of education as a means of getting ahead in life. Muslims in India--as a community--stress the importance of retreating in to their ghettos. Yes, Hindus may not like Muslims that much and, given half a chance, may discriminate against them but, given worse persecution, why did the Jews prosper in Europe and the US? And don`t trot out the Hitler Holocaust bit. Look in any European or US associaton of professional persons, see how many Jewish names there are?

I would refer you to Thomas Sowell`s excellent work on the relationship between cultural attributes and economic development/progress. Some cultures are indeed backwards. We South Asian Muslims are that culture. Some sub-groups of us, e.g., Ismailis or urban Muhajirs in Sind, are more progressive than others, e.g, Pathans, but on the whole we prefer to memorize the Koran to memorizing the periodic table.

There has been some excellent work done by Prof. Timur Kuran at USC on the connection between Islam and underdevelopment. Guess what? There is a direct correlation between being Muslim and being poor--oil excluded. As long as mullahs and jehadis run rampant, we will remain dirty, disease ridden and forever contemplating our navel.

Welcome back, Gymnosophist! Good to see (actually, read) you again.

I think it was Nehru who described himself as the last Englishman to rule India. Except for his clothes, he was English to the core. I decided, on the whole, that he was a great (or near great) man when I read that he used to write anonymous leaders in the Times of India criticizing Parliament for letting Nehru assume such sweeping powers, and calling on Parliament to assert itself more forcefully.

I believe for a while the intelligence people were after the editor of the Times to get him to reveal who was the man behind those scandalous articles.

While I agree with the general tone of your last post, I would differ slightly with some of your interpretations. Gandhi cerainly did offer to make Mr. Jinnah the PM of an undivided India (much to Nehru`s dismay) but I believe that Gandhi always adhered to the belief that Muslims were merely misguided Hindus and he believed that they would soon come back to the fold. It was in this context that he exhorted them to protect cows. I don`t think Gandhi was religiously bigoted as we would use the term today. However, he certainly did not accept Islam as a separate entity in the Indian context.

In any case, its certainly true that our Islam has many Hindu remnants contained in it. A Palestinian student of mine--a born-again Muslim--once commented that she was appalled at how strange some aspects of South Asian Islam were to her and that it was clear that South Asian Muslims confused ``folk Islam`` with the real thing.

I think I would also differ with you on your statement that the Muslims who stayed behind in India are better off than the Pakistanis. I believe that most economic indicators place Pakistan slightly ahead of India as a whole and, for India, Muslim economic indicators lag those of non-Muslims. I believe there is also considerable evidence of systematic discrimination against Muslims as a whole (perhaps that is explainable by Muslim`s lower educational attainment levels). Again, discrimination against Muslims in India is likely much less than discrimination against Christians in Pakistan (and certainly nothing like the discrimination against Hindus here).

I was wondering why you thought North India contines to be so resistant to education and progress?

Regards.

Again, I agree with you that our religious bigotry and intolerance is a given. However, this is indicative of a shared North Indian Hindu culture. Your so-called Cow Belt is remarkable, as you have pointed out, in its resistance to education and progress. They seem to revel in their filth and ignorance the same way that we seem to as well. There is a common theme of conservatism that runs the entire breadth of the Indian subcontinent and, irrespective of whether its Hindu or Muslim, it seems to reject modernity.

Perhaps India was luckier in that its raison d`etre was not that it was not Muslim. Thus it might have been spared its religious fundamentalists cloaking themselves with a spurious legitimacy. It continually amazes me that the Jamaat-I-Islami, the party that described Mr. Jinnah as the Kaffir-e-Azam, now can claim to be the true defender of Pakistan. Truly truth is stranger than fiction.

Reply #: 67 rajanjua

Yes Janjua Saheb, when did i argue ? Whatever you say is right. Shall we smoke the peace pipe ?

Reply #: 64 Behram B. Atashband

Dear Behram,

You are Parsi. Your grandparents were the elite of Karachi and created places like the Metropole Hotel, Beach Luxury, Avari etc. Created the entire shipping industry too. My great friend was Rustam Sanjana who emigrated to Canada. The Parsi colony is in ruins. Does anyone remember the Parsis of Karachi ? The whole race is close to extinction, the gentle and sophisticated Parsis of Karachi. I remember if someone wanted to buy a used car they would say ``I want a Parsi used car``, and any car maintained by a Parsi would go at a premium over the market rate.

I do not agree with you Behram that Indians do not like Pakistanis. What would you say about Jews ? Do the Jews hate Pakistanis ? My best friend in-fact is a Jew ! How can I explain that when Jews are supposed to be Muslim`s mortal enemies ?

I would say that on a person-to-person basis, we`re all great friends. Parsis, Hindus, Jews, Christians, whoever.

Reply #: 59 rajanjua

Jam Saheb had told me a lot of things. Bhutto`s murder was one of them. He had also told me Zia used to regularly visit India secretly.

He had told me Pinky`s psyche´ which SameerJB was curious about. Pinky by the way was a regular visitor to Jam Saheb`s home when both were in exile. Pinky`s sister Sanam and her ex-husband Nasir were regulars too.

What else would you like to know ? Would you like to know what Mumtaz Bhutto used to say? Or Altaf Hussain ?

Later ...

Reply #: 58 FARANGI_KUSH

Dear FARANGI_KUSH,

My hats off to you for this response. I have no words in appreciation.

Later ..

Rgds

Reply #: 59 rajanjua

No Janjua saheb. My other articles are nonsense too. It`s all nonsense. Truth and fact is nothing but nonsense. Well researched and well-written nonsense.

The fact remains unchangeable. Bhutto died of a rifle butt blow. Ask Tara Masih if you can find him. He`s dead too. Poisoned by Zia just after this episode. Tara Masih disappeared and then

ended up in Mao Hospital in a coma. Never recovered. His nephews are still hangmen in Lahore`s Camp Jail. Ask them who killed Bhutto.

Rgds.

Zeemax

Reply #: 56 Assad_K

Assad_K,

Lemme answer you para-wise:

1) Criticism by you is welcome. I admire you in getting instantly to the bottom of issues. As you know I have always tried to pull you back in conversation. Your sincerity and intellect is beyond question.

2) Okay, in your round-about way you make it clear that some of the posters are anti-muslim and anti-pakistani. Who are they ? This forum will admonish them rightfully.

3) This raises a very potent question. Yes I have seen the Yahoo boards and I have also seen the CNN boards after the plane hijack episode. There were many messages of hatred in both directions .. vitriolic indeed. Chowk is different somehow. As to whether Chowk is more representative than Yahoo or CNN ? I would tend to say Chowk. This represents the intelligentsia of both countries, the leadership of the future.

4 ) I will not deny that. India is way ahead of us in progress of thought and deed. Your contention that I have contempt for the same things in Pakistan is incorrect because these things do not or have never existed in Pakistan. I have great admiration for India in sustaining a sense of direction since the inception of their State in 1947 and following it through till the next millenium despite the upheavals in their own country. I salute them for choosing a path and following it when Pakistan is still looking for it`s chappal.

5) No none will perceive it as an anti-India tirade because it isn`t !

6) I had never commented on the patriotism of Musharraf. Patriotism is no single person`s domain. Musharraf is as much a patriot in his own way as are Nawaz and Shahbaz Sharif. Only question is who could do more for the country. I am convinced Musharraf is wrong. He will destroy this country in a matter of months because he just doesn`t know the problems of this country and neither does he have the team, while Nawaz Sharif did !( all of them in sordid illegal confinefement now )

7) I stand by my statements re the storming of the Supreme Court and retirement of Sajjad Ali Shah. I had given detailed facts as are verifiable and no one has disputed the facts so far. And no one will dispute them because those are the truth.

8 ) If Justice Bhagwan Das was elevated to the Supreme court, didn`t his detractors lose ?

9 ) Your post is very focused. You`re just being humble. You know the virtue of humility.

Rgds.

Re: Umairr #51

This seems to have deteriorated into the usual name-calling between Indians and Pakistanis but, in this case, the Indians are absolutely incorrect.

Siachen was indeed unmarked no man`s land. When the original LoC was negotiated/surveyed, the line ended well before Siachen since it did not occur to anyone involved that ostensibly sane people would be fighting over it. It remained a bleak no man`s land for almost 40 years until the Indians moved in troops.

Why did they do so? It seemed there was an article in an Italian (or Austrian, I cannot remember for certain) magazine about mountaineering expeditions in the region and this article had maps that showed the territory as being Pakistani. Presumably this was done because the expeditions approached Siachen from the Pakistani side. Indian intelligence read the magazine and had a fit--presumably because these maps and expeditions gave Pakistan a strong claim on Siachen if it ever wanted to exercise it.

Apparently the first that the Pakistanis knew of the Indian troop build up in Siachen was when the next expedition was turned back. And the rest is history. The only way that the ridiculous Indian claim that Pakistanis started the whole thing AND were the first to move troops in is true is if we accept that the lone Pakistani Army officer accompanying each expedition constituted a massive troop buildup that threatened Indian control of IOK.

From what I know of these expeditions, its most likely that the Pakistani officer just stayed at the base camp and never came within 20 miles of the glacier. So we must have been hiring Italian and Austrian mercenaries to occupy the area for us!

Incidentally, Umairr is absolutely correct that the Pakistani Army was caught with its pants down. We had NO high-altitude warfare fighting capability at all in 1984. We have been responding to the Indian moves in the area. Fortunately for us, our NLI (the old Gilgit, Hunza and Northern Scouts) troops have turned out to be excellent AlpinJagers! BTW, the massive expansion in the NLI took place AFTER the Indian occupation of Siachen.

Since I`ve heard more than one Indian repeat the canard that Pakistan moved troops in first, I presume that this is a story that was deliberately placed in the Indian media to justify the expense of Siachen.

Reply #: 47 FARANGI_KUSH

Dear FARANGI_KUSH,

Can you believe that the Indians on chowk are NOT anti-muslim ? From the numerous posts I have read I have the feeling that the Indians are pacifists and have a lot of tolerance. Listen, the present generation of Indians is just like us. I urge you to see if you can make some friends amongst Indians. It`s not so difficult my friend .. just read all the posts and decide. You will see the Indians being attacked all the time .. even gentle people like Sadhna, is it fair ? Jay is emotional I know, and so is Gymnosophist at times, but they are always decent. They never abused Pakistanis while we abuse Indians all the time.

I have great Indian friends. I have been to India many times. It breaks my heart to see why there`s so much hatred when actually we`re the same people.

FARANGI_KUSH, I urge you to look into people`s hearts ... see that we have the same wants and needs. Doesn`t matter if we`re Muslim or Hindus, we`re all God`s children. And remember God is the same for everyone.

Rgds.

Reply #: 293 SameerJB (Manifesto board)

Regret the belated response. I`m still hoping I can fly kites (basant) on the rooftops of Gulshan-e-Ravi rather than endure the monotony of same-looking houses in London or the never ending sprawl of suburban USA.

[This is what made Benazir cynical and to take revenge upon this country...But that`s another story.]

Yes it`s another story. Maybe I`ll write a book about it. I had written a detailed reply but Chowk dropped it.

Did you know Bhutto was killed by Gen FA Chishti the night before his hanging when Bhutto called him a dog ? Gen Chishti had grabbed a rifle from the security guard and hit Bhutto on the temple. Bhutto had died instantly and his lifeless body was hung the next morning.

Later ..

p.s. Manifesto board is alive and well. Just bookmark it. Rgds.

Reply #: 45 Umairr

Dear Umair,

With regard to the judicial mess, I wonder if you saw my post # 290 on the manifesto board.

I recognise the convenience of a single mouse click over two, but I do believe there`s some merit to the ``Fishaar`` argument which many contributors have presented. Relevant boards can be accessed easily even if those are no longer on the front page due to understandable limitations. The thread of the discussion should be preserved. Why does every board, for example, need to turn into a Hindu Muslim brawl ? The feelings run strong I know, but there are other issues equally important as the Kashmir issue. bahmad has appealed to the chowk.com staff to make a permanent board for Kashmir arguments. I have made similar appeals before and so have other posters. I renew that appeal.

The focus of your referred post was the removal of Justice Sajjad by allegedly unconstitutional means. Of-course you are aware that Justice Sajjad was retired by the full bench of the Supreme Court at it`s Quetta Registry by Justice Irshad Hasan, the present CJ; and not by Justice Saeed-uz-zaman. Indeed the next CJ after Sajjad Hussain was Ajmal Mian. Saeed-uz-zaman had nothing to benefit by Sajjad Husain`s removal.

Umair, I do not condone the storming of the judiciary by NS - just as I deplore the recent humialiation of the men of law by Musharraf. The fact remains that any regime, whether democratic or dictatorial, needs to remain in power to be effective. This country alas is a hotbed of conspiracies which undermine every leadership. I do not doubt the patriotism of Musharraf despite this act as he too needs to remain in power in order to do something for this country, just as the Sharif brothers did; so he`ll go to any lengths to eliminate opposition.

The question is .. does he know more about the real problems of this country than the Sharifs or Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto did ?

Rgds.

Re: AI #43

While I cannot say for sure about this particular set of debt rescheduling, I can tell you from my own personal experience as a corporate banker that whenever we rescheduled loans, we always took a hefty ``review fee`` or ``administrative charge`` etc. Usually it was 1/4 percent of the transaction amount but if the borrower was in a particularly desperate state, it might be 1/2 percent or more. The point here was to maximize non-funds based earnings, which is what really counted in determining bonusses/promotions, etc.

Mind you, these are corporate loans I am referring to here, I am not sure what the IMF or other multi- or bilateral lenders do. They probably do not charge such high fees. However, commercial lenders, and we do have a high short-term commercial debt, probably do. So, yes, some rescheduling fees are probably being paid by us. But thats only reasonable, since they are extending us loans. The fact that these loans should not have been incurred in the first place is a different matter.

Regards.

Reply #: 20 FARANGI_KUSH,

Dear FARANGI_KUSH,

Yes I have perceived at times that there is indeed a Muslim Ummah but only through my interaction, though sporadic, with the Tableeghi Jamaat. I have had occasion to attend ``Dars`` by French, Tunisian, Moroccan, Algerian Muslims. They never spread the message of hate and indeed stress that all men are equal in the eyes of God just as our religion teaches. It is a unique experience to meet Muslims of all castes, colour and creed united on a humanitarian agenda rather than a political one, with no national boundaries.

I have seen religious and cultural tolerance in them like I haven`t seen anywhere, not even in the west. They`re extremely low-profile and shun politics completely.

My contention therefore is that a politically united Muslim Ummah does not exist, though it does exist in hearts and minds of Muslims all over the world.

Interestingly, the largest annual congregation of Muslims after the Hajj is that of the Tableeghi Jamaat at Raiwind. Last one was attended by in excess of 1.5 million people over it`s three days of proceedings. By comparison the Jehadi convention of Lashkar-e-Tayyaba at Muridke attracted 0.3 million people. I wonder what would happen if the Tableeghi Jamaat decided to form a political agenda ? Though it`s not their priority, I think only they can bridge the politico-religious divide.

Has anyone shared my experiences as above ?

Reply #: 19 sac

I do not wish to sound like a debunker. Indeed Grameen Bank is a novel concept and must be develeoped upon. However, at the moment it is not a commercially viable enterprise from a strictly profitability point-of-view if albeit it was meant to be so. The last balance sheet available on the net as of 31-12-1997 ( http://www.grameen-info.org/bank/lookbs.html )reveals the following figures :

Million US$

Total Income 45.66

Loan Operation 30.96

Interest on Fixed Deposit 11.32

Other Income 3.38

Total Expenditures 45.34

Interest expenses 19.26

Administrative and other expenses 26.08

Profits 0.32

Above figures reveal that there was a loss of $ 14.38 million on the core business of loan operations, which was met by non-core items such as interest earned on fixed deposits and other income resulting in a small net profit.

The capital and reserves at the same time amounted to $ 8.15 million. Return on shareholders funds thus was just 3.9 % before tax when the bank`s depositors in comparison are paid 8.5 % on their deposits.

As to why I thought Grameen was meant to raise rural income levels by facilitating self-employment, I quote the words of Dr. Muhammad Younas : `` ...these millions of small people with their millions of small pursuits can add up to create the biggest development wonder.``

Regards.

Am I the only one that thinks that friend FARANGI_KUSH needs to get his tranquilizer prescription refilled?

BTW, by his logic, shouldn`t we be denouncing Islam with equal vehemence since it too is a foreign import?

The AKRSP in the Northern Areas has a rural credit program that is not dissimilar to the Grameen Bank`s. Incidentally, the Grameen Bank has a 97% repayment rate not because poor people are intrinsically honest (although I will grant you that they are probably less dishonest than rich people in Bangladesh) but because the MO of the Grameen Bank makes the poor people internalize the monitoring and enforcement cost of the loan. This is done by first forming a lending circle (usually five unrelated persons) who take out loans turn by turn. If one defaults, the other four are responsible for that loan amount. And these loans are very short term loans.

zeemax:

Can you kindly explain why you think that the Grameen bank was supposed to raise the rural income levels in Bangladesh? And I would challenge you to name one large money center bank(including your Citibanks,Chases and Wells Fargos etc.) that would come within striking distance of the the 97% loan-repayment rate exhibited by Grameen(for whatever inconsequential reasons you`ve pointed out). You can either judge an institution on the basis of its social contributions or other more traditional criteria like ROE,captial ratios etc. IMHO its a folly to mix and match the two.

Saqlain:

I am not sure if you understand the concept of ``hot money`` and what havoc the proposal to have fixed exchange rates could cause. Any such action would take days if not hours for the whizkids on Wall street to get around. Once you let the genie out of the bottle its very difficult to put it back in. Money chases returns and countries with bad governance will suffer the consequences of their bad decisions. Government bureaucrats and politicians cannot control the global flows of capital and to be entirely honest why would you want to entrust such matters to people who can`t even figure out their left hand from their right.

No wonder economics is a dead science. It can only explain what happened in the past and has no clue what will happen in the future.

Reply #: 12 FARANGI_KUSH

Dear FARANGI_KUSH,

Firstly on a lighter note, your nick reminds me of Saadat Hasan Manto. It is said that the police came to pick him up one day. He asked on what charge ? The police replied `because you`re a communist`. Manto said but I`m anti-communist. The police said we don`t know about anti wenti, you`re a communist nevertheless. No hidden meanings in this of-course.

Interesting you should mention Grameen bank. Actually, Grameen Bank is a huge failure because it couldn`t achieve the purpose of micro industries with it`s credits. Most of it`s credits were used for personal expenses and marrying off daughters etc. The recovery rate of 97 % is because poor people are largely honest. On the whole, Grameen Bank failed completely to make a difference in the rural income levels in Bangladesh.

As for discussing everything threadbare, I wish we had your blind faith. People like me have been trained in the scientific method i.e. 1- theory; 2-formulation of hypothesis; 3- testing of the hypothesis to arrive at Fact.

FARANGI_KUSH, my main difference with your view is that I think you believe in the existance of a Muslim Ummah. History does not support that view. If we were not to follow the farangi ways, what else do we have to follow which has been tested over time ? There is mayhem and bloodshed in the whole of Islamic history continuing till today due to the divisions after the prophet (PBUH) passed away without naming a successor. The farangi at-least is aiming for world peace and understanding and communication which is noble. And the farangi too bleeds when cut.

Do we have another example to follow ? Everyone needs heroes. If I follow Hazrat Ali I`m branded non-muslim and Shia, If I follow Hazrat Usman I`m a capitalist and so forth. What should I do then ?

I`ll answer speaking only for myself. The path that I follow is that of Hazrat Hussain Mansoor Bin Al-Hallaj. That path is the Truth, Only the Truth, and nothing but the Truth.

Sincere Regards.

Reply #: 3

temporal

I hasten to clarify re too much at the same time. The two referred articles were submitted about two months apart but published at close interval. I had no control over this aspect.

The Millenium and Sadi is no faux pas` for lack of an urdu word for millenium. `Hazaria` has been coined by some authors but I find it distateful.

Is it perhaps that Prof Hoodbhoy`s `Smarts` look towards milleniums while `Dumbos` can barely manage centuries ?

In any event, my apologies for upsetting your sensibilities.

Rgds.

Gym #138

You //were// given an answer about Goa in #1163. I want everything that was not given to India by the British when they left, Hea`?

So the French left peacefully/peaceably! Otherwise you would have `invaded` the s.it out of them too?

Not only all those `possessions`, I told you I want us to have Ferozepur and Gurdaspur challenged and put on the table too. And get that Batten Chore`s perfidy corrected. You just hold your breath.

Seems to me that India has some very misplaced self confidence. By all means read y2k`s post in Pakistan at 3000. Read it now. All of you bullys.

So, for convenience sake Bengalis call everybody who is non-Bengali, ``Hindustanis`` ; the same way Whites called a whole humanity ``niggahs``? Don`t for ever be a kindergarten fail pest. Quit it.

Talk about IMF on this board.

Bye Bye. I shan`t respond to you in future.

Re Shahzad C #: 137

You said {The response implies, in the context of what was being said, that an ``individual`` by the name of Nehru agreed....}

No. The Govt of India under Nehru agreed. But even Nehru didn`t hold a plebiscite so don`t expect Vajpayee to hold one.

You say {You can easily see his miserably pitiable condition that he had run out of arguments, and was merely taunting like a kindergarten failure.}

Just like India can`t get back Azad Kashmir and the Northern Areas, you can`t get Ladakh, Jammu and the Kashmir Valley. Any amount of temper tantrums is not going to change this fact. Or, parroting Security Council resolutions. Nobody cares. And don`t shed tears for the innocent Kashmiris being killed. They could all move out of the way into any part of India like the Kashmiri Pandits have done. Then Kashmir can become a free-fire zone.

You said {He couldn`t answer none and as a taunt repeated three or four cloaked as rebutal of a childlike nature.}

You haven`t come back and told me why Goa should be on the table. You haven`t told me why you don`t want the French possessions to be given to Pakistan. The reason is the French left peacefully and so it never made the papers in Pakistan. The Portuguese didn`t and so you think you have a claim to any portion of India. You don`t.

By the way, when Britain was negotiating with China about Hong Kong, Taiwan asked for Hong Kong to be returned to it rather than mainland China. What is your stand on it? How about China saying Taiwan is a renegade province of China? Do you agree with that? I would expect you to. It is only India that can be wrong but never China for you. In the same vein, is Pakistan a renegade province of India?

By the way, even today North Indians are Hindustanis to Bengalis just like South Indians are all Madrassis. It is just a convenient way of referring to non-Bengalis. That doesn`t mean that we are against a united India.

Layman #136

Layman my man, all nerves on the Chowk are raw and frayed. After all, some one of your raw nerve must also have been touched by me &/or Yahmla Jat that you wrote your post, now, which one was it #133?

Any way, let`s talk about the IMF. But first we must get the following out of our way.

The following is from # 1164 from nanga 420 (GYMNO sophist)

[Yeah, there was an agreement by Nehru to hold a plebiscite once normalcy was restored. Indians have managed to successfully weasel out of that commitment and you guys can`t do diddly squat about it.]

The response implies, in the context of what was being said, that an ``individual`` by the name of Nehru agreed....

Normalcy never was achieved since [among other things] India had its army fighting, [controlling, and killing the Kashmiris].

You can easily see his miserably pitiable condition that he had run out of arguments, and was merely taunting like a kindergarten failure.

1. I think I had taken care of this specious, misleading, and fallacious reasoner in # 1163. Period. He picked up three or four points in response [remember, the responses in #1163 were ALL TO HIS QUESTIONS]. He couldn`t answer none and as a taunt repeated three or four cloaked as rebutal of a childlike nature.

2. Of course he knows history of Bengal, and its neighbours. He is a nationalist Bengali. Even such a broadminded historian as Nirad Chaudhuri [``Thy Hand, Great Anarch: India 1921-52``. London, Hogarth:1992]``, refers to all non-Bengalis, as

``Hindustanis``.

3. Have you seen a single reference in his writings, ever, to any other historical fact

which could be called ``Hindustani``, other than the parrorated items like Kashmir was divided on such & such basis. The Gutaawa you get from the newspapers!

Shahzad C #135 and Yahmla Jat #134,

I guess I touched a raw nerve there. Shahzad C - I have enjoyed the interplay between gymnosophist and yourself in the `He had no choice` board and was a bit disappointed that you chose not to respond to the points he raised in his last post.

Gymnosophist does have a sarcastic style of writing and a lot of folks seem to take his bait, but I must say that I am impressed by his knowledge of the sub-continent`s history (which is way more than mine) on the points he makes in his posts.

I re-read the posts mentioned (1162 - 1164) and did not come across the point on ``We control Kashmir and you can`t do diddly squat about it`` though I think this was mentioned in an earlier post.

Gymnosophist - regarding your point on Aryans throwing the Dravidians out, you should know that the Aryan Invasion Theory (AIT) stands discredited today. There is a lot of information on the Net stating AIT did not happen.

Shahzad C - The debates generated on Chowk have increased my knowledge of Pakistan and my own country. I would look forward to you rebutting gymnosophist`s points without necessarily getting `uncivil`.

BTW, I no longer enjoy Bilal Ahmed`s posts. He has become too polite, too serious and pedantic and too accomodative of everyone else`s views. Loosen up! What`s a Indo-Pak board without the fur flying?

Layman 133

Had you read my ``Cry for Help`` carefully, you would have noticed that I said that I can take care of such idiots (in fact he was being what in Lahore and Amritsar and Delhi we call ``phen Khan Badmash``. In fact, I had already taken care of him in the post //prior// to the one in which he said:

1. We control the Kashmir (Valley, people, we kill them[by implication]) and you can`t do your quat in our diddly, or something such.

2. We butchered (this racist `Aryan Nations` fellow says) the Dravidians and spilled their blood and crushed them etc.

It is quite clear he was being a PKB. I repeat I know how to take care of such PKBs and idiots but not without being ``uncivil``. I hope you re-read my ``request``. You would notice that HE ran out of ``arguments`` and all he could do was to offer his diddly. He wasn`t being tough, he was being an idiot. And if you think idiocy is toughness, then I acknowledge the ``toughness`` of your position.

You haven`t been able to forget the Chinese yet, have you?

Read their direct-to-the-White House-message of the 19th, about India. I guess they are not going to get out of your mind for another half a century.

But I doubt your ``toughness`` may not allow you to understand the significance of their message.

So far as Pakistan is concerned, they are doing quite well on their own, thank you very much.

#133 layman

How typical of an Indian to shoot his mouth before reading the piece about which he is writing! A layman in the brains department too?

&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&

Hey, let your women do the writing and debates. They have sharper brains.

Shahzad C #132 {I am in a tough spot. I have run into a baddtameez fellow in an exchange on the ``He had no Choice``, board (#1162-64). I can ``take care of his post`` myself, but I am afraid that in doing so, I may have to turn to a higher degree of `uncivility` than is acceptable to me. Please help. Anybody, from Right, Left, Centre, or from out of the perihery and parameter.}

Shahzad,

At the first sign of toughness from an Indian, you seem to be running left, right and centre for help. May be you should also ask America and China for intervention... How typical!

To Whom it may Concern

I am in a tough spot. I have run into a baddtameez fellow in an exchange on the ``He had no Choice``, board (#1162-64). I can ``take care of his post`` myself, but I am afraid that in doing so, I may have to turn to a higher degree of `uncivility` than is acceptable to me.

Please help. Anybody, from Right, Left, Centre, or from out of the perihery and parameter. Column Masters: Please do not mind my post on your board.

Sincerely,

Shahzad C

To Whom it may Concern

I am in a tough spot. I have run into a baddtameez fellow in an exchange on the ``He had no Choice``, board (#1162-64). I can ``take care of his post`` myself, but I am afraid that in doing so, I may have to turn to a higher degree of `uncivility` than is acceptable to me.

Please help. Anybody, from Right, Left, Centre, or from out of the perihery and parameter. Column Masters: Please do not mind my post on your board.

Sincerely,

Shahzad C

Umairr #: 126

You will enjoy following article immensely since you show so much interest in status of Indian IT.

* *

Boomgalore (WIRED March`2000) by Brad Wetzler

* *

(Yes, the article is about boom in Banglore - he discusses what young people go through to succeed in IT, interviews with Azim Premji and other tycoons, talks about general poverty around even prosperous Banglore etc. etc.)

Sorry, no e-copy yet of the article.

I would be interested in your comments.

Ref Umairr #: 126

You are perfectly correct in saying that IITs are NOT the key to IT growth in India. The total number of IIT graduates (from the B.Tech program) should be around a few thousand. However, the total number of H-1 visas granted to Indins is supposedly 45% of the 115,000 available annually. You are correct in saying that even the total output of all engineering colleges in India cannot account for this large number of IT trained people. Thus, the role of the B.Sc in Computer Science offered in the Faculty of Arts and Sciences in generating a large number of trained personnel.

It is interesting to note that for a long time the Indian government was actively hostile to the IT industry on the basis that hundreds of clerical jobs would be eliminated for every single computer in use in business. With severe import controls, the only computers India had in the 1970s was the IBM 1401 and the ICL machines from England. A few large companies had the IBM 360/40. However, the IITs had started their research program in Computer Science and were offering the MTech and PhD degrees. The MTech students had the ticket out of India for a PhD in the US.

Tata Industries took the courageous decision at that time to start Tata Consulting Services and their work in the US and Europe fired the imagination of all the young students who wanted a ticket out of India. The pioneering role of the IITs were adopted by major engineering schools in offering a Computer Science degree, these usually at the graduate level only. The fact that the PhD graduates of the IITs who stayed in India or those who returned from the US (there was a severe restriction on the number of green cards granted between 1971 and 1980 because of serious economic problems in the US) populated the faculty of these schools led to the development of reasonable curricula that focused on theoretical Computer Science. The US also allowed Tata and a few other smaller companies from India to send Indians to the US for short-term projects, mainly on a business visa. This formed a core group of Indians who could utilize their knowledge of the US to start their own companies later.

With the availability of the Apple and the IBM PC, small-scale schools sprang up to teach Basic, Lotus 1-2-3, etc. These schools were attractive to those with a traditional BSc degree in math or sciences and a few inquisitive high school students.

Thus, the groundwork was prepared without any conscious effort on anybody`s part to have a large computer-aware population. With Rajiv Gandhi`s liberalization and the Reagan economic revolution in the US in the 1980s, the stage was set for massive US investment in computers with the help of low-cost programmers from India.

The private engineering colleges had to attract students by offering Computer Science programs. Since admission to an ME or MTech degree program requires a BE, the MCA (Master of Computer Applications) was started for the traditional 3-year BSc degree holders with an emphasis on business applications and a requirement for a one-semester project for a local company. The inability of established universities in India to handle the millions of students applying for college education meant the opening of more colleges and the establishment of several new universities. If you are going to be a XYZ university hived off of Delhi University, you have already inherited the curricula of Delhi Univeristy, thus increasing the number of institutions offering Computer Science degrees.

The training institutes that have sprung up in the last 10 years offer courses on the flavor of the day. In the early 1990s, it was Oracle and other RDBMS and SQL. Two years ago, it was MVS and COBOL (for the Y2K issue) and also SAP and Oracle Applications.

The large number of H-1 visa holders could convert their visas to green cards and stay on in the US. With that security, quite a few have started their own body-shopping businesses. (I have run into more of them than somebody starting a software or hardware business.) But the recent growth in technology companies, the Internet business, etc., have fuelled the need for programmers and there is now a move afoot to raise the H-1 visa numbers to 200,000. It takes no brains to guess that India, China, Philippines, Pakistan, etc., have the inside track for many of these visas, with the Chinese having a distinct disadvantage because of the language issue.

It is never too late to start in the IT business. More and more equipment are being made smart with the use of integrated processors and the demand for programmers is only going to grow.

Re women in the IT business in India: it is entirely due to education. When a girl finishes high school, if she can do medicine why can`t she do engineering? The authorities could not answer this question and reluctantly let women into engineering schools in the mid-60s. What started out as a trickle has turned into a flood. No matter what one may argue about biological imperatives, I guess female brains function the same way as men`s as far as analysis is concerned!

A story similar to the IT success story -- but not to the same extent -- is the biotech business. A PhD out of IISc would be solicited for jobs by US research insitutions. The idea of a few top-notch institutions seeding the rest of the country should not be underestimated.

DANISH WOMAN RECORDS VEDA ON TAPE:

There is nothing to be surprised about

europeans doing what should be done by the

locals. The finest research on archeology,

orinthology (study of birds) and lot of

other areas was done by Britishers. It is not

our tradition give anything back to the soil.

Zeemax: This is a personal message.

Please see the latest post from me at ``Speaker`s Corner``. Thanks for your earlier support. Best Wishes and best of luck.

A Gnostic

gymnosophist #82: Everywhere one goes, people seem to be talking about IT. Many people consider it a ``get out of third-world,`` card for the poorer nations of the world. In this regard, your comments regarding the IITs are quite interesting.

I interview one software devloper approximately every two days. Since, the green card holding and citizenship holding programmers demand outrageous salaries, and even more outrageous benefit packages, my company now primarily targets contract programmers from outside the USA (in another words, Indians). Interviewing countless number of these Indian guys and gals, has been an interesting and educational process.

In my opinion, the actual growth of Indian IT is not primarilty because of the IITs. No doubt these institutions produce very intelligent people. However, every country has its set of very intelligent people; whether they come out of IIT, MIT or GIK is immaterial. A few hundred very intelligent people cannot carry an industry. The actual growth of the Indian IT (at least in Silicon Valley) seems to be due to the sheer number of Indian IT professionals that are coming here. They are not any better (or worst) than the IT people coming from other countries. It is just that there are just so many of them, that they have now occupy a large number of the software developer positions in Silicon Valley.

In this regard, the actual strength of Indian IT would be the hundreds of non-IIT institutions that must be producing these software engineers. Most of the Indian engineers I have interviewed seem to have a two years B.Sc. or four year M.Sc. from relatively unknown colleges in India. These degrees are probably not too hard to get. However, setting up these colleges, at such a large scale, is quite hard to do in third world countries. How has India been able to set up so many of these non-IIT colleges?

I have always felt that Pakistan should concentrate on producing comp. scientists by the thousands. The key to this is not to set up a few very high standard colleges (although that would certainly be an assett). The key is to set up a large number of ordinary colleges/diploma institutions giving, ``easy-to-get`` B.Sc. degrees in comp. sci. There is such a huge shortage of these professionals, that even below average ones get excellent jobs.

The secret of the Indian IT success in Silicon Valley, in my opinion, is not due to quality, but due to quantity. Quantity in my opinion, is much more difficult to achieve than quality.

Also, Pakistani girls are as rare in the US IT industry as Indian Muslims. Indian girls seem to take a lot of interest in IT; even the ones who did not study IT in India. Pakistani girls, even the ones who have the opportunity, do not seem interested in IT at all. Haven`t quite figured this one out yet...

Does IMF stands for Indian Muslims Friends, Foes, Failures, Fantasies, Families, Fore-sight, Fore-thought or Formalism?

Dear friends:

On the home/front page of Chowk, there is a yellow box on the middle right hand margin (actually, the ``marginal`` writing ends there). That yellow box has an item ``speaker`s Corner``. Click on it and you can leave a message for the administration of the Chowk. I left one that I think, would interest all the current posters on the Chowk. Please read it (by going to ``replies`` of the ``Speaker`s Corner``), and if you agree leave a message of your own. Or, merely ``me too``. I hope most of you remember that post!

Sincerely,

A Gnostic

In reply to gymnosophist (#85) :

It took a fundamentalist Danish woman to preserve the Vedas : (from the Indology forum)

Heritage: Danish woman presents Pune with an audio archive of the Vedas

snip

Thankfully Guni Hesting Kirchheiner, a Danish scholar, who dared to dream of recording the four Vedas, each syllable uttered to perfection, and preserving them for posterity. Now that dream is secure in an audio archive of 226 cassettes.

snip

http://www.the-week.com/20feb06/life8.htm

-arun gupta

In reply to gymnosophist (#85) :

It took a fundamentalist Danish woman to preserve the Vedas : (from the Indology forum)

Heritage: Danish woman presents Pune with an audio archive of the Vedas

snip

Thankfully Guni Hesting Kirchheiner, a Danish scholar, who dared to dream of recording the four Vedas, each syllable uttered to perfection, and preserving them for posterity. Now that dream is secure in an audio archive of 226 cassettes.

snip

http://www.the-week.com/20feb06/life8.htm

-arun gupta

In reply to Behram B. Atashband ( #80) :

He writes :

My comment is only this: How was it possible that the ruling muslim elite before the raj, namely the muslims, in merely 200 years, became socially downtrodden? Maybe our learned friend would provide me with some logical explanation.

My answer is that if every Muslim in the subcontinent thinks that he or she is descended from the Muslim ruling elite, then he or she is sadly mistaken. The elite or the ``Ashraf`` constitute only some of the Muslims, and I am sure they are doing quite well. The vast majority of Muslims were then and are now, weavers and farmers and tailors and the like, hardly the ``ruling elite``. They were downtrodden in the past. The real question is have they at least kept up with the progress (however little it may be) of the Hindu downtrodden, or have they fallen behind ?

He writes :

My friend, would you please find any law in these United States which actively state the values of discrimination against its minorities.

Now, accepting your notion that since the state apparatus in India has no discrimination laws against the muslims, then why do we find religious discrimination against muslims, and lately against Christians? If we were to accept your logic as presented then one can easily conclude that it is the majority hindus themselves, who are racists.

My answer is that until the civil rights act in the 1960s the United States had a lot of discriminatory laws against ``people of color``. While there are no discriminatory laws on the book today, minorities do suffer effects of discrimination even today.

Likewise, in India, the 1950 Constitution outlaws discrimination. And yes, there still is discrimination based on caste and religion in India. Laws by themselves are not enough. Laws do not prevent anything -- they only punish and deter. All societies have had laws against murder since time immemorial, and all societies still have murders. Likewise, Hindus too have their bigots, racists and murderers. Having the laws did not magically sweep Hindu society clean of all ills.

-arun gupta

Dear Zeemax:

Have you seen Hamza Alavi`s opinion piece on riba and interest in today`s Dawn (February 9, 2000).

It is worth reading.

Sincerely, Bilal Ahmad

In reply to Fuzair #75 :

You write :

I believe that Gandhi always adhered to the belief that Muslims were merely misguided Hindus and he believed that they would soon come back to the fold.

My question is : do you have any objective basis for this belief ? E.g., something Gandhi said or wrote or did. Gandhi did not accept willingly the idea of Muslims in the subcontinent as a separate nation (and here nation is used in the English sense of the word, do not translate it to Qaum or something else). But ``misguided Hindus who would return to the fold`` -- where did that come from ?

-arun gupta

A proposed Siachen science center :

http://www.cmc.sandia.gov/issues/papers/siachen/index.html

-arun gupta

An essay on Indian and Pakistani stances on Siachen :

http://www.cmc.sandia.gov/issues/papers/freezing/980505-1-40.html

-arun gupta

Useful links for microcredit :

The virtual library on microcredit :

http://soc-info.soc.titech.ac.jp/icm/

Microcredit in India :

http://soc-info.soc.titech.ac.jp/icm/country/asia-india.html

Microcredit in Pakistan :

http://soc-info.soc.titech.ac.jp/icm/country/asia-pakistan.html

-arun gupta

Interesting editorial from the Nation, Pakistan. It explains one of the main reasons why Pakistan has had to keep running to the IMF.

``All are honourable men!

SCANDALOUS and shocking as the news is, the non-payment of `a single penny as tax to the national exchequer` in the last financial year by an overwhelming majority of the members of the National Assembly and the Senate - 202 out of their total strength of 304 - is so degrading for the nation as a whole as to make it hang its head in shame. The known lifestyle of an offensive display of filthy lucre by a large number of these honourable men and, indeed, women, whose list appeared in yesterday`s edition of this newspaper, would be enough to condemn them at the bar of public opinion, without the need to wait for the verdict of the courts set up by the National Accountability Bureau (NAB). The government has directed the NAB to look into the matter in the light of Articles 62 and 63 of the Constitution, which relate to the disqualification of those MPs who did not declare their assets nor paid taxes due from them in accordance with those assets. While all of them stand suspended, interestingly enough the defaulters list is not free of the name of a legislator or two who continues to figure among the top hierarchy in the current administration. The remaining 102 MNAs and Senators are supposed to have yielded only paltry sums to the government revenue on this count. The cases of certain prominent holders of power in the past who, despite being exceedingly rich, had allegedly given negligible amounts of taxes, had been the subject of mutual recriminations by rival politicians. The amounts quoted were lower than the income tax paid by a government employee and even the bills of water, gas or electricity of an ordinary household.

One wonders what role model these defaulting politicians who flout the very laws they assiduously pilot on the floor of the House present before the common man, who is groaning under the crushing weight of taxes, surcharges and hosts of other payments of a similar genre. The pity is that a number of these suspended legislators hardly miss an occasion to demand the restoration of the Assemblies which could, not without justification, be interpreted to mean that they are more interested in maintaining their `privilege of being above the law` rather than serving the cause of the nation. One hopes that they would be put to a fair but strict accountability process, for as leaders their guilt is severer than that of ordinary mortals.

(NATION, Pakistan)

During 90-92,when I was active on USENET groups soc.culture.indian, etc., I ``met`` in e-space a Muslim lady, who had studied in the same institution that I did, and who had the same physics professor at the school and who shared the high regard for said professor. Since we were having the same kind of discussions back then about equality and inequality in India, I inquired; and it turned out that our initial conditions were similar -- middle-class fathers working in government scientific labs; and our outcomes were similar -- educated in the same schools, come to the US for graduate study, etc. ( Unfortunately an excitable Pakistani got very upset; how does a Muslima study under a kafir, etc., and that was the end of that discussion ).

Of course, that is a single anecdote, and proves nothing. An essay on Indian Muslims mentioned one study that showed that in the IAS type exams, Muslims as a group did below average in the written exams, but those called for the interviews did better than average. Again, it was a small study, but I hoped that it indicated that the interview, where anonymity is lacking, was not biased against Muslims. Overall the statistics are dismal, Muslims are represented poorly in Central and state govt. employment compared to their percentage in the population.

I think the causes of Muslim weakness in India are complex and cannot be easily attributed to just one cause. It may even vary region by region, and by Muslim sect by sect.

Regarding affirmative action (reservations), these are for the Hindu backward classes only, as far as I am aware. Supposedly, conversion to another religion removes any social disadvantage.

There is no reservation for Sikhs in the Indian military forces. In fact, I think it is a directive policy that the armed forces reflect the composition of the country; and one of the gripes of Sikhs was that this policy was lessening opportunity for them in the army.

I will get more detailed info. and post as I get it.

-arun gupta

gymnosophist and Umairar

Thanks for Good arguments. Seeing posts from you two makes me feel that the Pakistanis and Indians CAN have civilized discussions that are not mere rhetoric and accusations.

gymnosophist your gas pipe line example is eye opening.

Some one has said that ``If goods and services cross the borders, Armies Wont!``

It is very true. Once we have economic interests directly liked and obvious to the masses, war rhetoric will go down. If my job and my business is under threat, my instinct is to avoid the problem!

I think India and Pakistan should be like US and Canada. Cooperation and economic integration is in the other.

The only war that should take place should be on the Hindi/Urdu version of ``South Park``

One small correction: Some one on this board mentioned Saira Banu as the 73 year old woman who caused the famous ruling by Indian SC. Well, Saira Bano is the sixties sex kitten who married Dilip Kumar ( and is still married to him, though he later, took another wife named Asma Jahangir) The other Banu is Shah Banu

Why is this Shanaz C posting the same (irrelevant) post on every board? Dude, take it to Kashmir board.

Feb-7-100 7:32:32 PST Reply #: 22

SHAHZAD C

Subject:

Are we Humans?

Date:

Sun, 06 Feb 2000 19:15:56 +0000 (GMT)

From:

To: %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%8888888888888888888

I received the following. You might like to see it. I notice that the ``issuer`` is government of Pakistan

but the material is by the author:

Shahzad C 8888888888888888888888888888888%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%

I am sending this link for you all to see how deep the HUMANS have sunk.

Please donot be offended by this please see the pics. I received this link

as FWd mail. Please forward this to as many people as you can .

http://www.pak.gov.pk/public/kashmir/kashmir/tale.htm

Ref Umairr #: 108

You said {Uneven distribution and/or pursuance of education and wealth is a very dangerous phenomenon in any society. It becomes even more dangerous when these divisions are along ethnic lines (as in Pakistan) or racial lines (as in the USA). However, in my opinion, the most dangerous scenario occurs when these divisions are on religious lines. This holds specially true for third world countries. In that sense, if what you say is true, then isn`t India heading to a stage where the Indian Muslims will become completely backwards economically? At the same time, Indian politics seems to have gone from one extreme of courting the Muslims under Congress, to the other extreme under the BJP. If the Indian Muslims are

isolated politically, and left behind economically (even if it is there own fault), will that not divide India into two groups of religious have and have-nots? In the long-term that would not bode well for India, or for South Asia in general. Any religious unstablility in India eventually will spill over into neighboring countries. Are their any major affirmative action programs in India for Muslims, Sikhs etc. ?}

I fully agree that lopsided development is a matter of serious concern. In fact, this is a powder keg that can lead to the disintegration of India. The backward Cow-Belt states also have the majority of Indian population which means that they could command a majority in the Parliament and pass laws (those requiring simple majority only) on their own, ignoring the rest of the country. In the past, this led to their monopolizing the prime ministership from 1947 to 1977. As if the regional/linguistic differences are not bad enough, we have a sizeable population of minority religions and tribals also in these areas. I sometimes despair at the stupidity of the politicians who think only of staying in power as opposed to having a strategic plan for the country.

It is not just that India`s problems will spill over into the neighboring countries. The reverse is also true and has already taken place. The Bangladeshi poor have flooded into Assam and overwhelmed the local population. This has caused serious problems to India because the Assamese essentially want these intruders thrown out. India is trying to complete a fence there and the Bangladeshis are fighting mad about it.

Thus, it is not in India`s interests to have an underdeveloped Pakistan either, and for Pakistan a stable Afghanistan is a necessity as you already know from hosting those refugees who haven`t returned home 10 years after the Russian withdrawal.

It is in this context that I find the behavior of both Bangladesh and Pakistan a bit bizarre. Bangladesh is sitting on vast deposits of gas in the Ganges delta but has refused to export it to India on the basis that they are saving it for the future energy needs of Bangladesh. The foreign oil companies that drilled in Bangladesh are mad because, having discovered the gas fields, they are now not allowed to exploit it. Iran wants to sell natural gas to India and is asking to lay a pipeline through Pakistan. The transit fees will fetch Pakistan $600 million a year. The Pak government is debating whether to do this while they are busy trying to get into the good graces of the IMF for a lousy $280 million loan. One would think that if these were only commercial entities, these decisions would be no-brainers. The folks in Iran, India and Pakistan should get together, figure out their cuts, and then get on with the business of building the pipeline. Pakistan has got to know that the alternative to the pipeline is to transport it through LNG (liquefied natural gas) tankers from an Iranian port to the west coast of India. Japan has been doing it for the last 25 years, transporting gas from Indonesia to Japan. Japan would gladly build the tankers and loa