Pakistan: A Failed State?

I feel our country has failed as the majority of common people have lost hope for better future.It more looks that we will just like Taliban in future. The real depression of young I saw when visited Karachi and Lahore. Poor and well doing my relative urged me to some how help their youngster to to get out of Pakistan permently.Many young graduate told me they have no future in this country.I think TV has exposed them to material things which other people have.I personally was very depressed while visiting as our people have lost the hope.My Sindhi friends were even bitter about loss of Karachi and Hydrabad and slowly loosing Sindhi from major cities of Sindh. I felt as if light has gone away.

I do agree with most of the article, especially the description of `neem mullahism.` I agree with the opinion that Pakistan is in a crisis, however labeling it as a failed state is something another matter. The only thing that bothers me is the prescribed solution of separating church and state.

First of all, this solution does not solve the problem discussed in the article. As the author himself says, neem mullahs believe in coercively enforcing their version of Islam with OR WITHOUT the state`s assistance. So even if we separate `church` and state, we will not have dealt with our illiterate priests.

Secondly, I am a bit weary of this idea of separation of church and state. Church was the state is medieval Europe where the rulers believed they had, in some sense, divine right to rule. They sold `get out of hell free` cards, they reserved the right to forgive a person`s sins, etc., etc. In Pakistan, we do not have that. Despite our tendency to believe that there is nothing good in Pakistan (although I am not accusing the author of the article of the same), despite our colonialism induced need to see everything from Western eyes, Pakistan`s church and state are not the same.

Let me clarify. We do have clerics telling our people that they will go to heaven if they vote for this person or that person, but that is not part of our judicial system. Our laws are supposed to be based on the Quran and we have a sharia court, but that does not mean our leaders have proclaimed some divine right.

Let me clarify further, it does not mean that we don`t have people in the shadows who would love to create a theocracy, the kind non-existent in Islam. However, Pakistan has never really seen such a system (perhaps except for Zia`s time).

I`ve said it before and I suppose I`ll say it one more time, it sometimes seems like we have read of solutions in our European history books, now we are searching for problems that fit those solutions.

Bilal - Not a personal attack, but here is what bothers me... most of us sit here and participate in armchair politics. Pakistan needs this, Bangladesh needs that, India need this, Nepal needs that... and so on! One might be interested in the political economy, but it is those who actually DO something about it that count. Please note, I am not implying that I have done something for South Asia, but I refuse to be an armchair political analyst! Yes, I agree with you... got to separate state from religion and foster discourse, but HOW?

=zensufi=

I do not think that separation of church and state in this article refers to anything European. Nor does it have anything to do with the divine right to rule, etc.

I think it has to do with the American Jeffersonian idea of separation of church and state. The first unambiguous statement of it I think is in the state constitution of Virginia.

The basic idea is that religion should as far as possible be kept out of politics. In a democratic setup, this means that the state does not establish a religion. The best modern statement of this belongs to Jinnah, and is alluded to in the article.

-arun gupta

Dear Bilal Ahmad: You have concisely encapsulated precise problems Pakisatn is mired with since inception. You have touched upon a hotly debated area near the end of your essay which you have prviously avoided to discuss and I think that most replies will be related to ``Neem Mullahism`` or more generally Islam vs. Pakistan. I can forsee this forum generating 300+ replies before being archived. Most of the issues you have raised require very detailed analysis with keeping in mind the groung realities of Pakistani society, e.g., religion implementation is a one-way street. There are more chances of a de facto secularism than, say, constitutionally secular state.

The concept of failed state is beyond my comprehension. If it means economically weak and debt-ridden, then probably more than half the nations of the world could be considered failed states. The answer is same if one is talking about ethno-linguistic identities trying to work out a cohesive national identity. Europian countries solved this problem by creating several countries. If it means a possible disintegration in the near future then again, I think Pakistan is not about to go through a repeat of 1971 style disintegration.

My biggest worries deal with the anti-modernity mindset on part of large segment of the population who see it as a neo-colonialism or an anti-islamic western conspiracy. The first word they utter is Ummah which somehow binds 500 dollar per capita Pakistanis to 200-300 dollar per capita Afghanistan and central asian republics. With a labor pool of no more than 30 million people, mostly in agriculture business, in a country of 140 million and only 2 million tax-payers do not have the luxury to indulge in lavish Ummah building activities. The people of Pakistan should be the only focus of Pakistanis as well as their governments. The irony is that government feeds thosands of ``Neem Mullahs`` through the Ministry of Auqaf with a net return of zero rupees in revenues, except some donations at famous shrines which is not even sufficient to run the ministry. Why should a nation with less than 500 dollars per capita income spend this money. Pakistan must prioritize their spending and not try to make her a welfare state. The concept of welfare state can wait until we achieve a minimum sustenance level of 1000 dollars per capita.

Lastly, the most important issue is to control run away population. The population growth rate of 2.6% is way too high to achieve any economic success. Actually a sustained population growth of 1-1.2% over the last 30 years( since 1971) would have put us much above the 100 dollar per capita target considering the increased spending, lower healthcare and housing costs and more saving. Despite all the corruption and useless war efforts of 1965 and 1971, it is the over-population which is pushing us over the edge. To lower population growth rate it is doubly more important to empower women folks than men. If it means letting go of chadar, chardeevari and hijab; so be it.

Sincerely,

Sameer

I agree with you sir, Neem Mullaism is ``the`` problem and seperation of church and state is ``the`` solution.

Who will rid the country of neem mullas (army? politicians? semi literate awam?) and how will the separation be done (constitutionally? Ataturk style revolution?)is what you have failed to address.

I think it is inevitable that Pakistanis will suffer many many years under a facist mullah government before they even begin to appreciate the virtues of separation of church and state. Just like Europeans realized it after suffering for centuries under the oppression of the church, and the Iranians are realizing now after suffering under the Ayatollahs for 20 years.

The contest between secular armchair intellectuals and jehadi mullas reminds me of ``How to make the horse take his medicine`` by Shafiqur Rehman:

``The easiest way is to insert a pipe in the horse`s mouth, place the powder (medicine) in the pipe and blow as hard as you can. Please ensure that the horse does not blow before you do.``

Take care.

Ali

Good Thread BAhmed!

Main problem of Pakistan is lack of participation of people in their own destiny, due to the greed of our ruling elite and has been strengthened fully at the time of Zia-ul-Haq (Only my opinion and probably I am one sidedly looking).

As far as the composition of political parties and vested interests is concerned, we will continue to have a strong fascist religious lobby. The reason is poor economics. And no amount of law or law enforcement is going to change it much (unless we have a fascist state). Most of the common man involving in politics and religion are from lower middle class.

The solution is only improvement of our economics and funding of infrastructure in the form of education, means of transport etc. Second, to try to obtain self-sufficiency in whatever field we can.

This should be done single handedly.

And all the institutions, as has been discussed, like political, foreign policy, agricultural, trade policy should be done in this way.

Can anybody declare Pakistan a secular state and in WORDS put seperation of religion and state (although practically it happens). Not only religious lobby, but vested interest will join against it. Not long ago during her second term when BB suggested secular education, not only Islamic parties but Muslim league made a huge hue and cry. We have to accept this fact.

We have to define our goals. And defining our goal should not touch religion in any form.

For example, either we should start education and true education at the level where fundamentalist hold is too much or make it mandatory on Maddressah to teach some core current curriculum as part of their licensure of some sort.

I can tell you from my personal experience where we four brothers and sisters belonged to different parties and sub groups from extreme right to extreme left and had heated discussions and never agreed. I don`t expect the people to become homogenous in a country like Pakistan, where every person is a ``born politician``. We have to accept this reality.

Secondly, throughout Islamic History, the Islamic State has been seperated from religion practically. And in current history where Islamic identity is assumed to combat Imperialism, the time ultimately seperates religion from state. The good example is Iran, which starting at extreme right within 20 years has shifted to moderate. If we take out period of Iran-Iraq war it shortens to 10 years. In this 10 years Iran has produced such an immense amount of literature and thoughts of a quality that no country in the world has produced. The struggle is continuing there. It is highly doubtful that a Taleban like regime is going to succeed without moving towards center. The condition of Saudis is different because of vast amount of wealth with little population. They can afford the luxury of Theocratic State otherwise they will be involved in other luxuries.

``Buk Raha Hun Junoon Mein Kiya Kiya Kuch``

``Kuch Na Samjhay Khuda Karey Koi``

Bilal,

I would like to add another aspect of Neem Mullah`s which you did not mention in your article: Neem Mullah`s have women on their minds...women should be caged, women should observe strict purdah, women should sit at home having children. This is one of the main reasons why women,who constitute a large percntage of the population, hardly contribute to the econmy of the country.

Another thing which I would like to add is that some people have claimed that Pakistan is not yet a failed state. I feel that it might not be a complete failure but it is fast heading in that direction. When young people start leaving the country, when they start saying that all they have left is a `civic contract` with the country and no emotional attachment, the country is, in effect, a failure....sad, but true. And yet as I write this, I feel that it sounds too hopeless. Maybe we should not give up hope but I, for one, don`t see a light at the end of the tunnel.

In response to mo2000 (Reply # 1)

Dear mo2000:

Thank for your input and interest. A lot of Pakistanis have indeed lost hope for various reasons. Pakistani youth need to inform others why they have lost hope and what needs to be done. The also need to suggest some practical solutions to remedy the situation. I am sure that our economic, political, social, and spiritual problems will ease if we make some fundamental changes in the way we think. I, therefore, argue for the ``need to foster an alternative discourse that prioritizes the values of humanity, freedom, justice, and peaceful coexistence.`` Many uncritical supporters and opponents of Islam would simply argue for and against (respectively) the view that Islam is essentially based on such values. Maybe this is true, maybe this is not. It depend upon how each of us interprets and treats Islam. As long as Muslims do not provide a good example of these values in their homes, neighborhoods, communities, and other higher socio-spatial levels of organization (and especially in critical moments), the world would continue to disregard and/or challenge the claims of Muslims about the supposed power of their religion. Although state and civil society are not mutually exclusive categories, our experience of the nature of religion-based conflicts suggests that the right place for any religion is the inner self of an individual and his/her immediate part of the civil society.

Sincerely, Bilal Ahmad

In response to ShahbazC (Reply # 2)

Dear Shahbaz:

A good response. Both of us agree that Pakistan is facing a crisis and ``neem mullahism`` is a problem that needs to be addressed. As far as the question of the separation of state and religion is concerned, it would surely bother a lot of people in view of their/our inadequate understanding of what such as separation really entails in the case of Pakistan. This question also requires our conceptualization of the nature of the state and the meaning and interpretation of religion.

If we can demonstrate how ``neem mullahism`` (and/or ``political Islam``) and our dominant discourse are linked (and affect each other), then a case for the separation of the state and religion could be easily justified. Let me elaborate a little. If public education is a responsibility of the state, then Pakistani state has very much failed to fulfill this responsibility. Shouldn`t we ask why our literacy rates are so low even after half a century of our existence? The failure to impart education to all Pakistani children is one of the reasons that a good number of our children have to date attend the deeni madaris where poorly trained mullahs (or neem mullahs) teach and control the educational agenda. I am not making a case that all deeni madaris provide poor education. We, however, need to ask: Why there is no compulsory education in Pakistan (neither primary level nor secondary level)? This is a topic that needs extensive discussion.

For your second reason, I would simply suggest that we need to look for insights and lessons into the history of Pakistan since the coup of General Zia-ul-Haq. Thanks for recognizing that I am not one of those who think that there is nothing good in Pakistan. I don`t know much about sharia laws and courts, however. I would like to know how the sharia laws are better than laws based on the principles (values) that I have identified. We have example of nations where citizenship and human rights of people are reasonably protected, while we have no example of any Muslim country where such laws (guaranteed by Islam or not) are protected.

My solution is one of common sense. Anything based on only foreign knowledge and experiences would not work in Pakistan. It has never worked, it may never work. I, however, have no problem in learning about the experiences of other nations. In sum, the problems of each society are both unique and not so unique. Marx was well aware of this fact, as he recognized the significance of both theory and praxis in his method of understanding social reality.

Sincerely, Bilal Ahmad

In response to Amit (Reply # 3)

Dear Amit:

It is nice to see your post. Your proposal is very innovative and challenging. I wonder if such a challenge will ever be accepted and then finally honored peacefully for ever.

Sincerely, Bilal Ahmad

CHOWK MULLAHS

The appetite of the chowkirdars to blame every one other than themselves has taken a new leap with the demonisation of the ‘neem mullahs’(NM), (hopefully nothing to do with the Neem plant involved in the patent disputes between India and the US). The NM with their educational background can be excused in whatever `‘wrong`’ interpretations they are giving to the holy book. The chowk mullahs with their western/anglicised education are trying to give another slant that too only when they are confronted and driven to a corner. Recently on the chowk some one mentioned that Koran calls for killing of kafirs. Two chowkmullahs challenged it and if I remember correctly, macgupta produced the quotes. The response from the chowk mullah was “ Oh that one, but how about the verse following it, it talks about peace.”. Obviously chowk mullahs knew of the verses, but were hoping that no one would produce it, there by keeping the ‘truth’ from the limelight. A TRUE MULLAH ™ would have posted the quote from the holy book and provided his interpretations instead of hoping for that no one would produce the quote.

The above tactics is pervasive among the chowk Pakistanis. I was challenged a few months ago when I stated about the de-franchising of the Hindus and the implications of the eighth amendment. I did find out about the separate electoral roles etc, but I was rather annoyed to find out that the person who asked me to quote the actual amendment was fully aware of it.

Chowk mullahs criticising the neem mullahs, in essence that is the problem. Is there a true mullah, even an honest chowkirdar who accepts the reality, ready to post the voting rights of the Hindus in Pakistan?

BAhmed #13

You have asked about other experiences.

I would highly recommend you to study the situation in Iran.

Although not an ideal state, but the way things are going, it will turn out to be a good blend of national and religious characterstic, and seperation of church and state in Islamic perspective.

I lived there for two years and I was very much impressed by their what you call local solutions.

The advantage to them of a Mullah Government was that, they had to work hard to keep them in power (they knew that cities can turn the table). They had invested in infrastructure to a remarkable degree in the form of education, road construction, health, agriculture etc. Since their support would never be in big cities, they worked hard for village people and this revolution is also called ``Inqilab Deh Fajr`` Village revolution rises. They spend and give incentive for adult education etc. Moreover their internal economic policy depends upon relaxation of ownership of state in favor of private enterpreunership. Although they regulate it.

They are producing excellent education, for their needs.

I think, Iranian lesson since it is a Islamic country, is as valid as Chinese lesson, in current world to see how a nation can independently takes its path and determine its own destiny.

In response to zensufi (Reply # 4)

Dear Zensufi:

The notion of armchair politics is interesting. In any society, most people never engage in the kind of activism that you seem to stress (not that what you seem to suggest is not of critical importance).

A teacher is supposed to teach (and learn). In view of my teaching background, I am engaged in a process of consciousness raising through the dissemination of ideas. I have no problem in being called an armchair teacher, scholar, or politician as long as I perform my job honestly and conscientiously. By the way, I have been fairly active in both student and faculty affairs/politics at the University of Karachi.

How could we foster a discourse? I would say that we need to communicate with others through writing (print media; internet) and other means. We need to work slowly, gradually, and uninterruptedly. In due course of time, we will reach the masses as well as those who have long been engaged in usurping the rights of the people of Pakistan for (at least) more than two generations.

Sincerely, Bilal Ahmad

RE Fuzair # 16

Dear Fuzair and other Pakistanis,

Don`t let jay spoil an interesting discussion. Try and ignore the senile Brahmanic ramblings.

I can bet his next post will be on Kashmir, although he should be more worried about Kerala, where fast reproducing muslims will be a majority soon.

Ali

Fuzair # 16

Your contention that Koran or for that matter any other book is not cosonant with science, logic and rationality, needs definition.

There is a difference between Mullah and Momin according to Iqbal, one of the greatest Muslim of sub-continent in this century.

At that time contrary to our current times Mullah used to preach peace.

And he said, particularly in reference to Kemal Ata Turk that Mullah is saying to pray while Momin is saying it is time for Jihad.

Also at another place he said Azaan of Momin is different from Azaan of Mullah.

In his time Mullah was a passive idle person and Momin was considered very active and ideal.

On another count and it will be in consonant with your remarks that all will be rationalizing to proove Koran right. This matter cannot be settled. And rationalizing will continue. May be it is a bias, but it will continue.

The reason I am telling you is because, there are many people in America who have converted to Islam based on the scientific facts given in Koran, which nobody could have known even 100 years back rather than 1400 years back.

As far as logic is concerned. Also it will continue to be debatable. The reason is Koran exhorts for belief in hereafter and reward and punishment. If we believe in a world which is mechanical then it is a continuous flow till dooms day. And there is no end. Now many people and philosophers also argue that it cannot be so. Seeing that there are lot of people who suffer and lot of people who are well off. Is it just? So they believed that there will be life in hereafter, where good and bad deeds will be rewarded and punished respectively. May be it is rationalizing or truth.

There are many phenomenon which we have just begin to understand, like relativity of time and motion etc. Time is a phenomenon, which at the speed of light is zero. So time does not exist. So no past no present no future. There are other things which you consider, you will realize there is something beyond our perception. Like Koran as it has been preserved for last 1400 years is a mind boggling phenomenon without any change of word. Can you give me a single book even from 1000 years back which has been kept like this.

On another note, there is and will continue to be a phenomenon of Islamic revivalist, like Mujaddid Alaf Sani, Shah Waliullah, etc but Muslim Fundamentalism will never be a Phenomenon of Muslim polity.

As long as we are colony, it will continue to appeal to masses as, Pir and Darvesh have too much appeal for down trodden people. But as is evidenced by history, Independent Muslim state cannot have fundamentalist Government, because the current version of fundamentalism is going to alienate the people to the extreme.