Talibanization or the Turkish Model?

Reply #: 38 Umairr

``.....I think if I took a promising idea to a Tie venture capatilist (99% chance that he or she would be an Indian) and an Indian took a promising idea to him/her, who do you think would get funded.``

It depends on how much you believe in yourself. The belief in your idea has to be stronger than the bias that you say the Indian VC has against you and towards the Indian entrepreneur (which may be real or imaginary and you won`t figure that out if you don`t try). If you believe in it, you will make your idea succeed with or without the Indian VC. If you don`t believe in it that strongly, you have already failed. That is the mark of an entrepreneur and that is also why 99.9% of us are 9-5 workers.

I can understand author`s frustration with the problems currently faced by pakistan and its people but to direct his anger at Islam and religious groups is totally unjustifiable. Pakistan is not a theocracy. Yes, religious fights break out between shias and sunnis, but they have never took epic proportions in terms of bloodshed as implied by the author. On the contrary, majority of violence perpetrated is either done by the sectarian groups, who don`t personify islamic spirit in any way, or the governmental agencies of police and rangers. Even though the majority of pakistanic are muslims, however, they are moderate in their beliefs and practices. Even the people sitting at the helm of affairs can`t be considered religious fanatics. Hardly religious fanatics, they can even be classified as hypocritically agnostics. How does Islam keeps pakistan from material advancement. Far from that, we see that countries that are more islamically inclined such as saudi arabia and malaysia have fared better than pakistan that only claims to be islamic yet its laws are not. Talibans can`t be blamed for afghanistan`s financial woes. Its the long drawn- out war with russians that has taken its toll on it. Now, if the world is going to punish the afghanis for implementing islamic laws then so be it. A muslim must not redefine islam when faced by threats posed by enemies of islam. If prophet Mohammad had taken this course, today we would be seeing a different picture of islam. All the ahadith speak against redefining islamic laws and traditional values are held paramount. Anything that replaces prophetic way is an innovation with no place in islam. Islam if practiced according to its principles guarantees financial and material success as evident by history under caliph Umar bin Abdul Aziz. But today, our minds are so much awed by western economic model that we consider the islamic economic model as unviable and prehistoric. The laws of Quran apply universally and transcend time limits. If we could somehow change our thinking and leave our western inferiority complex, which is caused primarily by observing the temporary material success enjoyed by these so-called civilized countries, we will begin to appreciate the beauty of islam in its truest sense.

Reply #: 38 Umairr

``All of Tie`s programs are directed towards India now; like funding the Indian IITs, working with the Indian govt. to solve the problems of the Indian IT beaurecracy etc. I don`t think Tie would agree to fund Univ. of Engineering and Tech. Lahore.``

This is inaccurate. It is mostly individual effort that is going into helping IITs, Indian Govt. etc. For example, Kanwal Rekhi, not the TiE, is lobbying to privatize the IITs (which I believe is boneheaded because he doesn`t have a clue what education is about and cannot be measured in rupees and paise). Hence, as a corollary, it wouldn`t be entirely impossible for a Pakistani member of the TiE to fund educational opportunities in Pakistan. I seriuosly doubt that the TiE would not encourage something like that.

Re Umairr #38:

You say {Regarding, Indian venture capatilists helping Pakistanis: If I have an extremely good idea, then any venture capatilist will agree to fund my project, because he/she would be sure to make money.}

But you have to have an introduction to talk to a Venture Capital firm, any VC firm. You just don`t waltz into a VC`s office in Sand Hill Road and expect a hearing. TIE members have good connections with the VCs and can give an enterpreneur the right introduction. Even better, the VCs visit the TIE conference and are looking for companies (not ideas) to invest in. Even to meet these people informally is an opportunity that does not come by easily.

You say {I think if I took a promising idea to a Tie venture capatilist (99% chance that he or she would be an Indian) and an Indian took a promising idea to him/her, who do you think would get funded.}

But you have to try first, don`t you? It is not a compelling idea that becomes a compelling product. It is the salesmanhip that makes a company successful. Anybody can sell refrigerators in a tropical country but it takes a real salesman to sell sand to Saudi Arabia or refrigerators to Eskimos. Thus it becomes a question of getting people to buy into your vision, your product, your company. Whether it is TIE members or any other VC, you do have to give up majority ownership of your company but does it matter when you can own, let us say, 2% of a $4 billion company? The idea is that the traditional method of building up a company no longer works in the Internet economy. Either you make it really big within 5 years or you just stay in the minor league for ever.

You say {All of Tie`s programs are directed towards India now; like funding the Indian IITs, working with the Indian govt. to solve the problems of the Indian IT beaurecracy etc. I don`t think Tie would agree to fund Univ. of Engineering and Tech. Lahore.}

But it is not TIE that funds the IITs. It is the wealthy individual members of TIE who are doing it because they were the alumni of that institution and because they get their names on the buildings, like Bill Gates got his name on a building at Stanford for $10 million. I remember meeting wih the Director of IIT-Kharagpur some 6 years back (much before the Internet craze) when he was trying to raise funds for his institute and already an Indian multi-millionaire from Omaha (talk about Corn Belt!) was building a School of Business there.

The investments back in India did not come with the first successes. It came 20 years later. It is the more established people with hundreds of millions of dollars who can afford that. The freshly-minted millionaire is still trying to get into the hundreds of million range before he will think of giving money for charitable purposes. (A decent house in Silicon Valley can eat up a million dollars easy!)

Some time back, you mentioned NetSol becoming the first Pakistani company that was listed on the NASDAQ. That is a great accomplishment for any business. In a similar manner, if one can learn from attending the conference (not necessarilly becoming a member of TIE) how to grow a company, that is worthwhile.

TIE has opened local chapters in several cities and is going global. Why don`t we put their claim to supporting the entire subcontinent to test by asking to open chapters in Lahore and Karachi? Only a Pakistani can do that. Any takers?

Re:Pardesi#20

No one can deny that Punjabis are very talented and perhaps, the most dynamic people in the subcontinent. However, their greatest weakness is that they tend to overreact resulting in extreme behaviour, which they regret later on. Take Pakistani Punjabis for example. They are convinced that India is the enemy, when their history shows that Pakistan has always been attacked and conquered from the North and West. So strong is this conviction, that nothing seems to be able to overturn this mindset. Pakistanis in other provinces have much lesser intensity of anti-India sentiment.

Similarly take the Sikhs for instance. Sikhs had problems with the Mughals in Delhi. That had nothing to do with the Punjabi muslims. Sikhs lost their empire in Lahore, when the British and the Dogra brothers (Gulab Singh and Dhyan Singh) conspired to wreck their empire. Again Punjabi muslims had nothing to do with that and Gulab Singh actually became the king of Kashmir in this process. Yet, in 1947, the Sikhs under Master Tara Singh went beserk against Punjabi muslims and they responded in equal measure. It went to the level of trains full of dead bodies, parading naked women on the streets, murder, rape etc. It could not have been just communal violence because it was nothing like what happened elsewhere in the subcontinent. The result is a permanent chasm in Punjab which is so difficult to repair. While Bengalis are visiting each other in Dhaka and Calcutta, people in Punjab still dread each other. What a waste of potential !!

gymnosophist #35: I seriously thought about joining Tie last year. However, I decided not to. As much as I would like to sure your enthusiasm about Tie standing for The Indus Entrepreneur, I think it now stands for The INDian US Entrepreneur. Even US magazines recongnize it as such:

``TiE represents only a fraction of what some Silicon Valley executives call the Indian Mafia, a gang that voraciously seeks IPO opportunities. A veritable international hydra, the group`s tentacles reach from California to Boston to Bombay to London, always in search of new ideas and serendipitous connections.

The organization has its own mouthpieces: a 60,000-circulation magazine and the Siliconindia.com Web site, which is part news site, part town crier. The Indus community – Indians who work for U.S. tech companies – is growing, spawning TiE-like organizations and filling some top tech jobs.`` (The Standard)

Initially, Tie was supposed to be a South Asian organizations. It was started by some big name South Asians who had achieved IT success in the US. What many people do not realize is that before the internet revolution, a couple of Pakistanis were as big (if not bigger) on the US IT scene as Indians (Safi Qureshi is one example). So they, along with Indians formed Tie. However, after the internet took over, the Indians due to their large numbers, and software skills have ended up claiming Tie as their own, by default. Perhaps this was not done by intention, however it has ended up happening. If you look at the volunteers and commitees of Tie, I think their is one odd name out of a hundred that sounds Muslims (and that might be an Indian Muslim).

Regarding, Indian venture capatilists helping Pakistanis: If I have an extremely good idea, then any venture capatilist will agree to fund my project, because he/she would be sure to make money. However, extremely good ideas come once in a blue moon. For every 3.6 billion dollar IPO, there are hundreds that do not even see the light of day. Venture capatilists usually end up funding promising ideas; and there are thousands of those. Keeping that in view, I think if I took a promising idea to a Tie venture capatilist (99% chance that he or she would be an Indian) and an Indian took a promising idea to him/her, who do you think would get funded.

All of Tie`s programs are directed towards India now; like funding the Indian IITs, working with the Indian govt. to solve the problems of the Indian IT beaurecracy etc. I don`t think Tie would agree to fund Univ. of Engineering and Tech. Lahore.

Don`t get me wrong here, I have nothing against Indians funding Indians. It is very good for India. I think Pakistanis should set up something like this also. However I will have to disagree with you on the orientation of Tie. I don`t think it represents the Indus Entrepreneur, even though its name applies that it does. It represents the Indian entrepreneur.

Re: Zeemax#33,#34

Thanks for your comments. We desis need to look at the big picture. Look at the Islamic world today. There is a big vaccum and there is no nation that can provide any leadership. Being one of the larger nations, Pakistan has the potential to step in. It has the military muscle including nukes. It has relatively well educated, technical manpower. If only Pakistan can get its economic house in order, it can spread its influence far and wide. This is where India can pitch in. India cannot become a leader of the Islamic world, for obvious reasons. However, there is no reason why it cannot support fellow desis in Pakistan achieve that goal. India could become a major market for Pakistan. It could generate massive trade with central asia and middle east which would be controlled via Pakistan.

What would India gain from all this ? If India and Pakistan are allies, the resulting economic boom would work wonders in India. Since India also has tremendous military muscle and well educated people, it can extend its influence on the non-Islamic world, especially in the rest of Asia. There its biggest challenge is from China. Now if Pakistan can collaborate with China, a non-muslim nation that has no similarities with Pakistan, why not collaborate with India ? As we all know, the future belongs to nations that are economic powerhouses. Right now we are pulling each other down, which is ridiculous, when we should actually collaborate.

All this will require a major change in mindset. Pakistanis have to stop believing that North Indians are itching to march on Lahore, when the reality is that Pakistan has always been attacked from its North and West. India has to stop equating Pakistan with past muslim invaders, which is utterly ridiculous as well. More importantly we need to honourably settle Kashmir and move on to a better future.

Re Zeemax #: 33

You said {Amit, I am Musalmaan, I believe in one God. You are Indian, supposedly my enemy, you have little moortis of several Gods in your home .. what is common amongst us ? Why do you want to help me ?

Is it because you are more rational? Is it because you have progressed while I have digressed ?

Let me answer my own question. You want to help me because I am your brother. You will not leave me alone in my distress. You also know my potential and you will not let it all go to waste. You know what shape and form the world is taking and Pakistan is positioned for great things to come. So you will help me in avoiding suicide.

Won`t you ?}

Last Saturday, I attended an organizational meeting for TIECon 2000, the annual conference of TIE (The IndUS Enterpreneur) in order to volunteer my services. In that acronym TIE, the word IndUS does not mean India-US but in fact refers to the Indus Valley. In talking about participation by the subcontinent`s Information Technology and Biotechnology enterpreneurs, one of the speakers asked how TIE intends to encourage participation by Pakistanis and Bangladeshis.

This was no idle posturing in public because the entire group consisted only of Indians. What I got out of it was that Indians recognize that there is untapped talent in the entire subcontinent that TIE can foster because of our shared culture. There are only so many ideas that the Indian community can generate for new businesses. But with the additional perspectives brought in by Pakistanis and Bangladeshis, the possibility exists that TIE will find more business ventures to nurse and support.

The motives are TIE members need not be entirely altruistic. If they decide to fund a Pakistani venture with seed capital, they hope to reap a sizeable profit. One software company that had gone public just the previous day had reached a market capitalization of US$3.6 billion and its CEO mentioned that as of Friday there were 167 new millionaires. Each dollar invested returned $56.70 to the investor. With that kind of returns, the average investor doesn`t care if the enterprenuer he is supporting is a Martian, let alone a Pakistani or Bangladeshi.

May I ask Pakistani enterpreneurs both in the US and in their native country to make an attempt to use this opportunity to build a network of friends and well-wishers who may be able to help them achieve their goals? TIE intends to advertise on Pakistan Link and some other Pakistani-specific newspapers. But I do want our friends to know that TIE wants to serve the people of the Indian subcontinent, no matter what their nationality.

Zeemax, you asked the question why would a Hindu choose to help a Musalman and then chose to answer it. Even if we do not have highly idealistic motives as you suggested, we certainly have very pragmatic motives. At this meeting, I rubbed shoulders with several well-known Indian enterpreneurs who are funding new start-ups with their accumulated wealth. But more than that, they are providing these young businessmen the introductions needed to meet other successful businessmen, putting in a word to their friends about the new company`s products, etc., that will help the new company succeed. To them, the success of the idea and its transformation into a profitable business is more important than the nationality or religion of the participants.

Here is tangible proof to our Pakistani brethren that Indians wish them well. Politics is something else but let us not permit our governments` policies prevent us from becoming friends and perhaps even business partners.

Reply #: 6 Amit

[If only India and Pakistan can become allies instead of enemies, we can jointly become a superpower]

I appeal to all Chowkwallas to listen to the above.

Rgds.

Reply #: 6 Amit

Dear Amit,

You said :

[Heck, India can even support Pakistan in becoming the leader in the Islamic world and extend its influence even further.]

All of your post is so true and so genuine. Yes Afghans looted and plundered the subcontinent and now they are Pakistan`s dogs. But please explain further on how India can help Pakistan in maintaining the inherent will of the people ... as the leader of the Islamic World.

Amit, I am Musalmaan, I believe in one God. You are Indian, supposedly my enemy, you have little moortis of several Gods in your home .. what is common amongst us ? Why do you want to help me ?

Is it because you are more rational ? Is it because you have progressed while I have digressed ?

Let me answer my own question. You want to help me because I am your brother. You will not leave me alone in my distress. You also know my potential and you will not let it all go to waste. You know what shape and form the world is taking and Pakistan is positioned for great things to come. So you will help me in avoiding suicide.

Won`t you ?

Rgds

Omar,

You must have been speaking against Afghans in a loud enough voice to have been overheard by the other gentleman. If you must speak ill of someone, I suggest you keep your voice down out of consideration for bystanders.

I think it is great that we Pakistanis have permitted millions migrants (from Bengal, Afghanistan, India, and so forth) to settle here, and let them live in peace and become one of us. While we may have tons of political and economic problems, let us not lose the one thing that we should all be proud of: the average Pakistani has a big heart and will share whatever little he has to offer. Dont become petty and start finding fault with immigrants. Life has been tough enough already with them.

Sense a little anger here. The source is the cleric, the mullah, the Imam. He is the one that induces fears every Jumuah, he is the one who repeats and pounds and re repeats the same doomsday warnings, the same divine threats, the same punishments and hollow morality. Get rid of the Imam and the house will crumble. Instead of Islam give the people this : you will love each other not because the other prays to the same god, but because the other is human. You will love other people not because they are sunni or shia or qadiani or barelvi or members of your sect but because they are human. We are all born human - we are not born Sunnis or shias or Muslims or Jews or Hindus or Christians.

[Pakistan does not need an ideological justification or excuse for its existence, rooted in religion. It exists, therefore it is. That is enough.]

I would agree to the above. We need to exorcise the demons of the raison detr`e and determine a clear and positive direction for the future.

Although the author has slammed NS for the attempt at bulldozing the shariat amendment, the reason for this was only to align the religious factions behind the Govt and not for himself to become a Khalifa. Mullah Omar on the other hand is proclaimed as Amir-ul-Mominin in Afghanistan.

There was a direction towards modernization and regional peace during the last Govt. That is the direction which was lost and needs to be regained.

Rgds.

As an Indian, I could not agree more with the author when he says ``it (Pakistan) exists, therefore it is``. It is good to see that Pakistanis are no longer interested in simply being anti-Indians. Rather they want to be proud Pakistanis. I think as the partition era generation dies out, this trend will consolidate even further.

Although Pakistan`s support for the stone-age Taliban is not favorable for India, I am pleased that Pakistan is calling the shots in Afghanistan. If you look at history, Afghans used to mercilessly attack, loot and harass the people of Pakistan. For several centuries they imposed their imperial rule on Pakistan and India and treated us desis as their subjects. Well, every dog has its day. Today Pakistan is feeding and clothing the Afghans, as they have been reduced to the condition of illiterate paupers. Given the policies of the Taliban, it is unlikely that Afghanistan will make much of a progress in the forseeable future. This is God`s justice for all the misery that the Afghans caused in the subcontinent.

The interesting thing to note is that between India, Pakistan and Bangladesh, desis are now controlling everything from the Oxus to Burma. If only India and Pakistan can become allies instead of enemies, we can jointly become a superpower. Heck, India can even support Pakistan in becoming the leader in the Islamic world and extend its influence even further.

2 Omar Mirza

Ever read of Hamza Alvi`s history of Pakistan? I think you will find it quite relevant. Being a third generation Pakistani, I too do not see the necessity of harping on the rather contorted raison d`etre of Pakistan to justify present-day actions. We`ve always know Pakistan to exist as a nation by itself and never as anything else. But obviously this continual paranoia-creating atmosphere works for status quo- and works very well.

Ataturk still could speak his own languages. Qaid-e-Azam could not. Who was more westernized? So why is it, when Musharaf praises Ataturk, Qazi`s beard fires up, when our own creator was far more `disassciated` with Muslims (as the accusation goes for Ataturk) than the Turkish General?? Whereas the Turkish General actually fought western forces in battle and rescued what would have been a gobbled up `turkey`, the Qaid on the other hand actually worked with the westerners? Who is more pro-west? is a question for Qazi`s and Jamaat`s rather strange acceptance of Qaid-e-Azam.

The trouble I have with Kemalism is that it`s militant secularism.. In principle I wouldn`t mind seeing obscurantists chucked out and principles such as ijtehad brought in (though as a caveat, if the same obscurantists are the ones carrying out the process of ijtehad, we wouldn`t be much better off, would we?). But if it gets to the stage where we have an outright ban on women wearing headscarves? I`d probably disapprove as strongly as I would against, say, an outright ban on women wearing jeans in Pakistan (well, maybe not *as * strongly but that wouldn`t be my rational mind adding impetus).