Talibanization or the Turkish Model?

Tahmad321 #166

Chandrababu Naidu remains in power only as long as he is able to deliver benefits to the majority of his constituents: the poor rural voters. If the benefits of the `information age` donot touch them, Cyberabad or no Cyberabad, another politician will win over the voters who vote with their stomachs as bottom line. Naidu has many welfare schemes going for rural women voters and his involvement in national politics and interest in foreign investment is largely to help pay for them.

Which brings me to inner-party democracy. Indian political parties have had a very poor record of inner-party democracy. Its usually the charisma of the leader that energizes voters. However, voters can feed themselves on charisma only so long, so finally the performance in government and re-electability creates its own pecking order within parties. Indira Gandhi, NTR, Jayalalitha are cases in point, when the voters felt they stopped `delivering`, even charisma couldnot hold off the victory of these leaders` opponents. Actually Naidu won over the Telugu Desam Party established by his father-in-law NTR from NTR even before NTR died, merely by presenting a more electable agenda to the party members.

Laloo Yadav is still on top because his core constituency of voters couldnot be grabbed by other parties to an extent enough to suffer defeat. Poor performance and corruption scandals have reduced his victory margins however, and his wife`s present government is precariously placed.

When a leader shows vulnerability in the polls, his/her party usually splits(which happened with Sonia Gandhi and the Congress party in the recent past). If the splinter group does well in the polls, the split is called successful. Later, a common cause(such as forming coalition government, as has happened in Maharashtra) could bring these split groups together either in a merger or in a coalition.

For eg, in Kerala, there is a autonomous party called Kerala Congress(from an earlier split lost in the mists of time :-)). In earlier years, it was a major constituent(many legislators) in the state coalition government lead by Congress and so its party head would always be Kerala`s Finance Minister. Later the party split `successfully` into Kerala Congress(J) and Kerala Congress(M). Both groups coexist amicably in the coalition(called UDF). But the original party leader is now given a lesser Cabinet post, Revenue Minister reflecting his decreased influence in the coalition!

So inner-party dynamics are also seen to be influenced by electability, so accountability to electorate works its way into such a `personality`-dominated area, too.

If BB or NS had lost elections enough times, or if some rival had been able to project some issues closer to the voter`s hearts on which he/she could project a clear difference wrt to BB or NS, a potential split or power transfer in these parties could have energized both leaders to tailor their political stances and style of governance to the public`s will.

Can this happen in a few years, no. It takes time. 1977 (30 years after independence) was the first time a non-Congress national government took office in India. It failed miserably, and Mrs Gandhi came back finally in 1980. The next nonCongress govt came back in 1989-90, failed miserably, too. But, the present coalition governments and style of politics are based on many lessons learned in those days, both by political leaders as well as the electorate.

Moral of the story: If the ultimate aim is indeed representative governance, you have to stick with it long enough. 4 chances for 140 million people is nothing.

Sadhana

Belated Eid Mubarak to all Chowkwalas, including the Ahmadi Community.

Side note: (Hey, if someone wants to call themselves Muslim, why is everyone so darned hot under the collar about it?) As far as i`m concerned everyone has to give their own accounting in the hereafter, if there is one. All we need to down here, is make sure Pakistan, which is well on the path of Talibanization, becomes a state more in tune with the ideals of M.A Jinnah.

And why is Ali so concerned about highlighting the `non-Muslim` status of Ahmadis? You know quite well Ali, that in jahil&Mullahinfested Pakistan, that it is this kind of talk that leads to bigots shooting Ahmadis in the streets. Why not comments upon the Nation of Islam (and Elijah Mohammed)in the U.S? The difference being that nobody will take it into their head to go shoot the Nation of Islam`s followers in the streets of the U.S for their religious beliefs.

In the U.S we can have a civilized dialogue. In Pakistan, unfortunately, only bullets do the talking. So why pour oil on raging fires?

A Happy Eid to ALL who choose to celebrate it.

OMAR MIRZA

RE Nushmia_Zia_Khokhar # 143

It was good to learn about your beliefs.

What do you think of muslims who believe that Mirza Sahib was an imposter rather than a nabi/mehdi/whatever?

Ali

RE syjam # 153

Sorry for the late reply. You see we muslims were celebrating Eid and I got busy with that.

syjam says, ``You; like a Mullah declare us non-Muslim with a stroke of your keyboard.``

When non-muslims call me a Mullah and a Mullah calls me a fan of ``drinking, fornicating, lechery``, it convinces me that I am indeed on the right path.

syjam says, ``Why is it that Muslims are so keen on declaring some one else non-Muslims. I see Hindus to be opposite in this.``

Doesn`t it amaze you that the always quarelling muslims, from Shias to Sunnis to Bohris to Wahabis etc. agree that Qadianis are Kafirs?

As for Hindus, why would a penis worshipper worry if you start worshipping another part of the body?

Ali

Salaam alaikum Mr KAFIR KHAN

afoaos kay hum aur aap ab tuk in tafarqoan mai lagay huway hai...PAKISTAN IS A REALITY? AND SH?UD BE ACCEPTED AS SUCH and yes punjab exhibits a unique culture...BUT PUNJAB DOESNT AND WILL NOT OVERRIDE PAKISTAN...or HINDUSTAN for that matter

peace

Allah haafiz

Very rightly said: fanaticism doesnt have any role in Islam , literally Islam means ``peace``. But I disagree on one count. ISLAM is a code, LIFE IS ISLAM AND ISLAM IS LIFE ....hope i dont dont too much like the abonominable bigot/fundamentalist ( and whatever stereotype some ppl have made out of others )!

ALlah haafiz

Reply to AMIT,PARDESI & DHULLABHATTI

Re: 124

``OH U SPEAK PUNJABI``

As I sat talking to my colleague in my lingo, I heard in soft voice of a woman,``Oh you speak Punjabi``. I must admit I did not much care for her except to extend her a limited `Hello` whenever I crossed her in the corridors. But after she revealed that she shares my language, I found it difficult to ignore her in future. Such is the sparkle of culture which brings people closer like maganet. I have seen such friendlyness between Pakistani and Indian Punjabis which does not exist between other Indian communities. A Punjabi Pakistani is frequently invited by Indian Punjabi on birthday parties and like.

Conceptual religions were undergoing a period of trials in Indian some 500 years ago. Sufism was on the rise which openly challenged some beliefs of either religion be it Hindu or Mussalman. It was the time of open debate minus violence. People chose what they thought was right for them. It was common to have Hindus and Muslims in the same family, as pointed out by Amit, just as it common to have Hindus and Sikhs in the same families in India today. It is no different than to have a Republican husband who is married to Democrat wife. This is tolerance. Afterall religion is only a concept which lays down ground rules for a civil society. Problem arises when attempts are made to alter the balance when one group tries to impose their presumed values on another. This happened in India in 16th century in India by Aurangzeb and Turkish rulers in Europe. This was the era of forced conversion and Jazia against their will. This was fanatical. Ironically, Middle East is least involved in this. Last two countries to embrace Islam whole heartedly are Iran and Afghanistan which showed most of fanaticism. It is still rampant today. Late Shah of Iran tried to modernise his country but failed miserably. Afghanistan has taken a step back to 17th century. While Iran is realising the effect of international isolationism, Pakistan on the other hand, encouraged by Saudi zeal to establish itslef as sole gaurdian of Islam, is busy incorporating fanatism in its constitution. It will further divide Pakistani from Pakistani and Pakistani from Indians which geographically, historically, genetically, temperamentally and culturally are one. I have seen a Pakistani Punjabi never as closely to Libiyan as he is to a person from Julludhar.

Now coming to the likes of Mushrraf. He is not a Punjabi. He is a Mohajjir whose forefathers were from Bihar and migratde to Pakistan from Old Delhi. Heart and soul of Pakistan is vibrating Punjab which feeds its citizens. During partition Punjabis suffered most. REST ARE CARPETBAGGERS.

sadna #163 I think it is very interesting that, as you say, Chandrababu Naidu of Andhra Pradhesh came to power on the votes of rural women because he promised abolishment of liquor. And having met resistance on that, gave up on that issue, and went on to converting the AP economy to the information age. I think we need a few more people like him in India and in Pakistan. The fact that free elections can bring a Chandrababu Naidu in power in one place, and a Laloo Prasad (who I understand is a disaster not unlike our Nawaz Sharif and Benazir) in another would indicate there is something more going on.

In Pakistan, I think we know the answer: the democratic system does not work within the political parties. That is why both got two chances to power, when in a truly democratic party system they would have been political has-beens after the first time, and replaced by someone else as head of the party. Is that the same reason Laloo Prasad stays in power in Bihar?

Homo Islamicus

The following is from an opinion piece in Dawn, justifying `riba` decision.

What is being envisaged is nothing less than the emergence of a new breed of men. It is not, one must concede, beyond the realm of reason that such a Man may, indeed, emerge, but is it within the realm of possibility to expect that this new Man - Homo Islamicus - would, or can, merge out of this `selfish, dishonest and corrupt socio-economic milieu` by the 30th day of June, 2001?

Tahmed321 #161

Sorry, for whatever would surely have sounded obscure for lack of context. Ideally, I would refer you to something definative on the subject of Panchayati Raj or related matters. I will try to do so, also other chowkwallahs(maybe Pu Li) may know a lot more on these subjects.

Recently I saw a news item on how in one of the states, they are planning legislation to reduce the number of tiers in the Panchayat/zilla parishad system for better efficiency. As you say rightly, its a question of unchanging core principles and focus but let me add, evolving and flexible methods.

LTTE: Liberation Tigers of Tamil Eelam : an armed group fighting bitterly in Northern Sri Lanka for a Tamil homeland. Indians had been involved on and off in official/nonofficial roles with varying degrees of justifications, we finally paid the price with the assassination of Rajiv Gandhi.

BTW, I just recalled something relevant to a point many Pakistanis raise, about education being a prerequisite for `true` democracy. Chandrababu Naidu, an `information age` CM meeting with the Bill Gates of the world, came to power on the vote of rural women in Andhra Pradesh. He did this by throwing his weight behind an autonomous but powerful movement of rural Andhra women who were putting country liquor shops out of business by their activism(with some backing from a Telugu magazine editor).

Chandrababu Naidu promised total prohibition of liquor/alcohol as an election promise. He won the election and went ahead and implemented prohibition, but later as the state exchequer began to hurt badly from lost liquor tax revenues, he was forced to rescind the ban on all but country liquor, I think. He has been forgiven, I guess, because everyone understood the real life exigencies. Another story which defies neat and simple conclusions except the inescapable one that illiterate people sunk in poverty can be politically aware and politically active, too, very often a lot more so than their better-placed compatriots.

Sadhana

http://www.washtimes.com/commentary/commentary-2000317154158.htm

Flawed policy in Afghanistan

Peter Tomsen

Restoration of democracy in Pakistan and reduction of tensions in Indo-Pakistani relations will be high on

President Clinton`s agenda during his meeting later this month with Pakistan`s military ruler, Pervez Musharraf. But Pakistan`s destructive policies on Afghanistan should be emphasized as well.

Senior administration officials recently announced American support for yet another Pakistan initiative to resolve the Afghan conflict. Mr. Musharraf has also sought Iranian and United Nations cooperation for the initiative. Unfortunately, these efforts are foredoomed.

Giving another U.S. green light to Pakistan to mediate the Afghan conflict will only further postpone the day when the United States must adopt a more effective policy to deal with the international Islamist extremist network centered in war-torn Afghanistan, but also well entrenched in Pakistan. The network includes the Taleban; the Pakistan government`s military intelligence arm, the Interservices Intelligence Bureau (ISI); a number of Pakistani religious parties and their paramilitary forces engaged with ISI support in Afghanistan alongside the Taliban; Osama bin Ladin`s terrorist web; and a growing medley of militant extremist groups operating in North Africa, the Middle East, the Northern Caucasus, and Central Asia.

In the last 15 years, this extremist network has developed a subterranean religious, financial, intelligence and communication infrastructure that operates across national and regional boundaries. ISI and bin Ladin play prominent coordinative roles. CIA Director George Tenet, in his Feb. 2 testimony in Congress, speculated that the Islamist threat based on Afghan territory would likely escalate from bombings to chemical and biological attacks.

There are several reasons why the United States can simply no longer afford to defer to Pakistan to resolve the deteriorating situation in Afghanistan:

Any game plan by Pakistan will inevitably seek to retain the increasingly unpopular Taleban, an active participant in the Islamist network`s international crusade. The growing domestic Afghan opposition to the Taleban will not accept a Taliban led coalition.

Pakistan and Iran`s geo-strategic goals in Afghanistan will continue to clash. Islamabad supports the Taleban`s Sunni extremism to realize strategic depth against India. Tehran opposes the anti-Shia Taleban. Iran has attempted to build corridors of Iranian influence through Persian-speaking northern Afghanistan to Kabul, and through Afghanistan into Central Asia.

The great majority of Afghans view the Pakistani military and the ISI as the fox in the chicken coup. They will conclude that Pakistan`s initiative, however clothed, will favor the Afghan Muslim extremists like the Taleban against moderate Afghans, who comprise a majority of Afghanistan`s population.

Mr. Musharraf, for domestic political reasons, cannot deliver a solution to the Afghan problem. The international Islamist network is now too well established in Pakistan religious and political circles, the Pakistani military, and the ISI. It is also an important Pakistani vehicle to apply military pressure on Indian-occupied Kashmir.

Russia and the Central Asian Republics will view Pakistan`s mediation initiative as ``Old Wine in New Bottles,`` pointing to the most recent Pakistan-assisted Taleban spring offensive just launched inside Afghanistan. They will continue their support for anti-Taleban Afghan groups, fueling continued, inconclusive warfare in Afghanistan.

It is noteworthy that past Pakistani initiatives supported by the United States have all been pro-extremist and have failed: the 1988-92 Afghan Interim Government established in Pakistan by the ISI; the 1993 ISI-engineered Islamabad Accords which selected Burhanuddin Rabbani as Afghan ``President`` and Gulbudin Hekmatyaras Afghan ``Prime Minister`` (the anti-American Hekmatyar and Rabbani both publicly supported Saddam Hussein during the 1991 Gulf war); and the 1996 ISI-created Taliban.

What is needed at this time is a U.S. diplomatic initiative, not another doomed, Pakistani initiative supported by the U.S. Only the U.S. will be able to mobilize international support for ending the outside interference in Afghanistan by Afghanistan`s neighbors.

An American initiative should emphasize that only the Afghans and not outsiders are able to mediate their differences. Afghan groups will be unable to negotiate a consensus so long as foreign troops, militia, advisers, weapons and money flow to Afghan extremist elements like the Taliban and Rabbani. A downsizing in foreign assistance to all Afghan groups will force Afghans to search for an internal Afghan consensus on a broad-based Afghan leadership. An intra-Afghan dialogue to convene a national Grand Assembly, or Loya Jirga, has been under way among mainly Pashtun groups for more than a year. The announcement by the mostly non-Pashtun Northern Alliance in Paris on Feb. 24 that it would support a representative Loya Jirga to achieve an all Afghan consensus was an important intra-Afghan step toward peace.

A more effective U.S. policy could encourage forceful action by the United Nations Security Council to compel the outside powers interfering to step back from Afghanistan. The Security Council`s five permanent members should respond positively. All suffer from increasing security, narcotics, and international terrorist threats emanating from Afghanistan. One diplomatic objective could be an international treaty, like the 1955 Austrian State Treaty, which would grant international recognition of Afghanistan`s neutrality, sovereignty and borders. The international community could make clear to governments sponsoring Afghan surrogates that no Afghan regime will be recognized as legitimate until it reflects an internal, broad-based Afghan consensus.

Early in the last century, the great Urdu poet, Iqbal Lahori, described Afghanistan as the heart of Eurasia. He predicted that when the heart is in pain, the continent will suffer. It is time for resolute U.S. diplomacy to reverse the dangerous trends in Afghanistan created by Islamist extremism. The United States must deal decisively with these growing threats now, and not through Pakistan. Or it will contend with an ever larger Islamist extremist challenge to regional and global stability in the future.

sadna #155 Thanks for describing how different situations played out across Indian states. I must admit I had to read it a couple of times since the context is a bit new to me (although lately I have been trying to familiarize myself a bit more through the internet with Indian geography, politics etc.) BTW, what is LTTE?

I think your conclusions are quite sound. I like particularly the parts concerning sticking to some basic principles (education, equal treatment under law) and holding politicians accountable against these principles, and there being no simple formula for success.

The experience with the transformation of panchayats into development bodies in India in particular would be very relevant to Pakistan at this time since the military government appears to be committed to devolution of power to local bodies. I think in Pakistan we would definitely benefit from a study of the Indian experience in this area before trying to implement reforms at the local government level in Pakistan.

Deep in my heart,

I do believe,

That we shall overcome some day.

We`ll walk hand in hand ... some day.

http://www.outlookindia.com/20000306/affairs1.htm

The Ramakrishna Mission Vidyamandir has appointed Shamim Ahmed as professor of Vedanta and allied philosophy.

Quote :

He traces his interest in Vedanta to his affinity for the liberal philosophy of Sufism. ``I was always attracted to Sufism and when I studied Advaita, I found there was much in common between them.`` That he could carry such a personal journey to its logical conclusion is an improvement of sorts. For over a century, no Muslim was appointed by the Calcutta University as a Sanskrit teacher, let alone subjects traditionally described as Hindu philosophy. Prominent linguist Sahjidullah, for instance, was denied permission in the 1930s to teach Sanskrit at Calcutta University, forcing him to settle down later in East Pakistan.

End quote.

Tolerance, equality and freedom for the individual -- neither Taliban nor Turkish, but distinctly South Asian.

-arun gupta

Here`s a opinion column from a Lebanese news paper.

http://www.dailystar.com.lb/opinion/01_02_00_c.htm

Reaping the whirlwind of radical Islam

by Michael Jansen

Turkey and Pakistan are the latest two Muslim countries to reap the whirlwind set into motion by state sponsorship of radical Islamists. The Turkish politico-military establishment is under withering fire from politicians, the media and ordinary citizens for fostering a radical

Islamist movement to join in Ankara’s all-out war against the Kurdish Workers Party (PKK) in the southeastern area of the country.

In the past three weeks, Turkish police have unearthed four dozen corpses of merchants and moderate Muslims who were hideously

tortured to death by the Hizbullah movement established in the town of Diyarbakir in the early 1989s ­ at the time the PKK launched its

separatist war against the state. Many of the victims were Kurdish businessmen who refused to pay protection, or Muslim moderates

who rejected Hizbullah’s hard-line, the most prominent being feminist writer Konca Kuris.

The case for state collusion with Hizbullah is based on two facts. First, the security services abstained from tackling the movement until

now although, according to Turkish intelligence, Hizbullah death squads killed 500 PKK activists and 5,000 other people over the

past 16-18 years. Second, Hizbullah has never attacked the army or police.

The police might not have acted against Hizbullah if an informer had not disclosed information on its murderous activities and the

whereabouts of the leader of its most militant faction, Huseyin Velioglu, whose death in a shootout at his hideout in Istanbul led to the

discovery of gruesome remains of torture victims in the courtyard.

Turkish commentators believe that the authorities decided to crackdown on Hizbullah because it had outlived its usefulness against the

PKK. Furthermore, it was expected that exposure of the activities of the Islamist radicals would provide the militantly secular authorities

with a pretext to, once again, outlaw the moderate Islamic Virtue Party. Indeed, as soon as Hizbullah was exposed, the government

initiated a propaganda campaign against Virtue. But this plan backfired when a clear connection was established between the state and

Hizbullah. The Turkish Army has previously used right-wing nationalist squads against leftist parties.

Pakistan, in contrast with secular Turkey, is an avowedly Islamic state which has in the past two decades undermined its own domestic

situation by espousing the cause of Afghan Islamists. First, Pakistan harbored and trained the Afghan Mujaheddin fighting the Soviet

Army occupying Afghanistan. This campaign produced a flood of Afghan refugees who have destabilized Pakistan in several ways: by

importing a reactionary tribal brand of miltiant Islam, stirring communal tensions and running guns and drugs.

Second, Pakistan has been harboring, financing, training and arming Kashmiri militants waging war on India. Last spring India and

Pakistan, the subcontinent’s two nuclear powers, fought a bitter, limited campaign in the mountains along the Line of Control which

separates the Pakistani and Indian-administered sectors of Kashmir. Then last month, Kashmiri militants hijacked an Indian civil airliner

and held the passengers and crew hostage for a week.

As a result Pakistan may now have to pay a steep price on the external front for complicity in terrorism. Islamabad stands accused by

both India and the US of involvement with the Harakat ul-Mujahedine, which carried out the hijacking. While Delhi says Pakistan

directed the operation, Washington simply recognizes the connection between Harakat and Pakistani military intelligence. The Clinton

administration is under considerable pressure to add Pakistan to the US list of state sponsors of terrorism, depriving Pakistan of much

needed financial aid and military assistance.

Israel also paid a high price in blood for fostering the Palestinian Islamist Hamas movement during the first months of the 1987-93

Intifada. Israeli intelligence turned a blind eye to the initial activities of Hamas in the expectation that the Islamist movement would

challenge and undermine PLO influence with the Unified Command of the Uprising. But Hamas eventually set up a military wing which

kidnapped and killed Israeli soldiers, bombed Israeli civilians and opposed the peace process launched after the Oslo Accords were

signed with the PLO in 1993.

Egyptian President Anwar Sadat paid the ultimate price for adopting a policy of encouraging Islamist groups to counter the influence of

the country’s secular nationalist opposition. In September 1981 Sadat was assassinated by an Islamist militant who accused him of

tyranny and treachery for signing a treaty with Israel.

No one uses the Islamists, is an old adage which governments should consider carefully before trying to do so. First, the authorities

should remember that Islamists of all varieties have their own well-defined agenda, the establishment of Islamic states to replace existing

polities. Second, Islamists have a ready constituency among overwhelmingly devout people, which is generally alienated by government

mismanagement and corruption. And, third, Islamist militants from a specific country can count on obtaining sanctuary, financial

assistance and moral support from conservative Muslim governments as well as organizations and businessmen from many countries.

Islamist militancy is like the multi-headed hydra monster of Greek legend: as soon as one head is lopped off, another grows in its place.

Michael Jansen wrote this commentary for The Daily Star, Lebanon

PS: Got to add: Tamil Nadu affirmative action policies among others have led the way in granting of social justice in India. Also, noon meal schemes are a very important factor in spread of literacy. Also, its no mere coincidence that the most famous leader of cooperative movements Mahatma Gandhi was from Gujarat.

Pakistan has 30 million Shia, plus additional religious minorities. Why should Sunni Hanafi Fiqh be the law for everyone? Only when we have a religious-content-neutral system of law will Pakistan progress. If we implement Charia, as FARANGI KUSH suggests, Pakistan will have taken the last step to becoming Afghanistan today. There will be civil war and bloodshed again all in the name of religion. This is not the way forward.

The Civil war in Afghanistan is essentially a Shia-Sunni fight. Can we learn no lessons from that and what it has done to that country? The same thing has been going on on a smaller scale for some time in Pakistan already.

OMAR MIRZA