Talibanization or the Turkish Model?

ali1:#137

since when drinking,fornicating,lechery & behaving like a lout a sign of progress?Why is this aspect of the western progress so appealing to you.At best,these are the vices and recognised as such by clean,church attending,practising christains,by practising jews & others also who are fundamentally adherents to their faith.

Turkey,Algeria,Tunis,Morrocco are example of muslims being coerced into secular mould by those with guns.Democracy is conveniently invalid if Islam is seen as forming the government.

Please do not give lame excuses.Even Pakistani minorities will tell you that they are `permitted` to drink.Just so that you & your kind be put to some shame(if you`ve left any) it took the christain member of parliaments in the legislature to support ban on alcohol consumption when the muslim MPs seemed ambivalent about it.

What I quoted about `smelly` food,I meant that most of the inferiority-ridden Pakis feel ashamed to do it--not only here but even in Pakistan in companies where farangi culture is `appreciated`.

Can a Korean eat dog(a delicacy in korea) openly in farangi lands? if an immigrant he might run the risk of even getting deported unless he signs an affidavit not to hurt the sensibilities of ``Americans``.

Can somebody open a liquor store,gambling den,bawdy-house,porno-club (the stuff that makes you drool & salivate)within the precincts of the Vatican?In case you are not aware it is a state unto itself.This is where religion & state are the same...England is the other example albeit the will-o-the-wisp kind(now you see it now you don`t).

You are one of those who really convince the serious reader to not agree with the secularisation.Whatever arguments of merit they have are reduced to nothing by your example.

Do you have nothing good to learn from the west.Why only freedom to practise debauchery always at the top of your priorities?

Mohammad Shah Rangeela in the past & Yahya khan in recent times have done enough damage to the muslims of Indo-Pak,and we are still paying the price for it.

But at least they were better than you in one way.They had remorse and they never touted such behaviour.

May Allah show you the right path.Ameen!!

wassalaam.

Spaces of Medievalism in Neo-Colonial Pakistan

A couple of days back, I posted an appeal by Ayesha Aziz on this forum. I am somewhat surprised that even on the Chowk only Zeemax and Shankar have registered their concern over the unfortunate state of the spaces of medieval coercion in Pakistan. The following letter, I think, is a followup of Ayesha Aziz’s appeal by a family friend (see also Reply # 122).

Chowkwallas, wake up and assert yourself to make Pakistan a place to live and survive with honor, dignity, and without fear of our coercive state apparatus.

Sincerely, Bilal Ahmad

Frontier Post, March 15, 2000

Letter to the Editor

Horror chambers of the Attock Fort

On 11th March 2000, I was taken aback to read the letter `Ex-MNA in Attock Fort`` by Mohammed Akram Sheikh in an Islamabad-based newspaper. An Urdu daily of 12th March also presented a similar report that the accused at the Attock Fort are suffering from blood dysentery because of contaminated food and water that is given to them.

I was not going to believe this piece of information until a friend of mine asked me to accompany him to meet the family of one of the accused who is detained at the Attock Fort. I was hesitant to go to their house but then curiosity pulled me to their door.

As we took up the issue of the living conditions of the accused kept at the Attock Fort, one of his family members described how the accused were being treated. Their story was quite similar to what Mr. Akram Sheikh had described in his letter regarding the ex-MNA.

I was shocked to know that the part of the Attock Fort, where they are keeping the accused has been declared as a police station by the military government, but in fact it is totally under the army control. Here the favours given by the court to the accused such as newspapers, food from home etc have not been honoured. Earlier the accused were locked up in solitary confinement in 4x6 torture cells, with no ventilation and a high-wattage light bulb which was constantly kept on but now there is complete darkness in the cells with a zero-watt red light bulb kept on to put strain on the nerves of the accused. The accused cannot make out whether it is day time or night because their wrist watches have been taken away from them. They are given no books, newspapers, medicines or food from home.

The accused are made to sleep on the hard ground of the cells with no bedding and only a blanket. Earlier the accused were permitted to come out of their cells for 30 minutes in 24 hours to breathe fresh air but now it has stopped. The accused are allowed to meet their family members once a week under army`s strict supervision for an hour, without any privacy and all their conversation is recorded. Even the lawyers cannot discuss anything in private with their clients (the accused) as each and everything is recorded.

There are certain accused in the cells, who desperately need to see a psychiatrist and are mostly crying and shouting in their cells. However the NAB deems that as long as they look OK there is no need for them and the others to see a psychiatrist or a doctor. Only in very serious cases the NAB officials provide a medical doctor but not a psychiatrist. There are also reports like the case of the ex-MNA, that several accused at the Attock Fort are suffering from blood dysentery, because they are given contaminated water for drinking. The accused are being slow poisoned at Attock Fort.

I take this opportunity to bring into the kind notice of Chief Executive General Pervaiz Musharraf that torture and degrading methods employed by the NAB are likely to bring a bad name to the present government. Some elements in the NAB are not only defaming General Pervaiz Musharraf who is so eager, trying to build up the image of our beloved country nationally and internationally, but also bringing dishonour to the honorable courts in the country.

I hope honourable Gen Pervez Musharraf would take notice of this brutality and set things straight. Pakistan Army is the protector and the provider of human rights. One just can`t blame everything wrong committed by a few men in the service on the whole armed forces. We `Jawans` are here to build Pakistan, not to break it!

Col Rafiq Jan Razak,

Peshawar.

RE: tvarad # 130

tvarad says, ``Make up your mind whether you hate or care. You cannot do both at the same time.``

I am just a common chapee from around the block, not an intellectual like most of you on this forum. So I can and do have contradictions like most mere mortals :-)

BTW I don`t hate anyone, anger yes but hate no.

Ali

FARANGI_KUSH # 133

FARANGI_KUSH says ``WE know majority is muslim,hanafi fiqh,& would like to be ruled under muslim,hanafi fiqh.``

AND

FARANGI_KUSH says ``I find more successful,award-winning,recognised scientists,businessmen,lawyers etc etc more in number mosque attendees than the other kind.``

The ``Jazak Allah Khairan`` (JAK) crowd in the US might want to be ruled under Hanafi fiqh, not the majha, gamma crowd of Lahore. They want their basant, their kadhai gosht and Murree Brewery whiskey.

The JAK crowd in the US is indeed composed mostly of engineers and lawyers as you state. These people are mostly US citizens and are well settled in this country and confuse their religion with their culture in order to fit in a multi cultural society (like some woman wrote on chowk that it is ok if her children can`t read Urdu but must read the Quran in Arabic). You are also accurate in your assessment that the majority of paki cabbies, students, the new H1B`s and other lower strata (2 number patta :)) stay away from the mosques. They are too busy discovering the local night life, checking out the large variety of hard drinks available and/or just trying to make a buck.

Some personal observations while in Pakistan. Very thin attendance in mosques. In the fajr prayers that I was able to attend, I could only see the mullahs from the mosque`s madaressa and a few retirees. Indian music blared in the chai khana right next to the mosque during the zuhur (duhur as per JAK crowd:)) and Asr prayers and no one seemed to care. Even the first SAF (row) was not filled in Fajr and Isha prayers; and I went to several mosques in Rawalpindi, Islamabad and Lahore. Majority of homes in middle class neighborhoods have dish antennas and people watch Zee tv and Star tv more often than Baseerat. Even a small video rental store in Dhoke Ratta offers more XXX titles than a medium sized adult bookstore in Burbank. And this is not a Zionist conspiracy, just plain old demand and supply.

FARANGI_KUSH says ``Those who govern must take instruction from the governed as their servants & deliver what is necessary to them in the secular affairs``

Farangi Kush, you are slick. You conveniently skip the religious affairs. It is necessary for an Islamic government to enforce ``Amr bil maaroof wa nahi anil munkir`` which translates to religious police as we see in Saudi Arabia, Iran and Afghanistan. These guys will go around regulating the clothes, hijab, length of the beard etc. etc. Scary for the common Pakistani, specially women.

``minorities, jazia etc etc``

Minorities will suffer the most. Christian women will be forced to follow the Muslim dress code. I am sure you know how the JAK crowd reacts (CAIR etc.) when some kmart or wal mart asks a JAK woman to remove her hijab! Since an Islamic government can force christians to wear hijab, JAKs shouldn`t complain when a secularist society forces a JAK woman to remove her hijab?? And why should a religious minority tax not be levied on the JAKs in the US. Although ISNA and CAIR will have rectal bleeding (due to anger of course) if it ever happens.

FARANGI_KUSH, you said in a previous exchange that you were treated very well while living in the US and Canada. You brought your smelly food to work, wore whatever you wanted etc. etc. Shouldn`t you strive for the same for Christians in Pakistan? Should they not be able to bring pork chops and beer to work? Or you think you are special? You want to be (and have been) fairly treated as a minority in the West but want to treat minorities in your own society differently?

Ali

PS: JAK = Pakistani Islamists in the US/West

PS2: My observations on Pakistan might not apply to our brethern from across the Attock river.

FARANGI KUSH does not seem to understand some very basic principles of democracy. Democracy, rule of the majority, is nothing more than reduced to mob rule if some A PRIORI principles are not applied.

1) Legal equality & non-discrimination on the basis of gender, religion, race, caste etc. Illiterate & bigoted majorites cannot be allowed to erode these principles, or make them a subject of political debate, and they must be accepted prior to contesting any elections. Without this, there is no democratic society to begin with since minority rights cannot be left to the vissectitudes of elections alone. We don`t NEED A RELIGIOUS JUSTIFICATION OR EXCUSE to support these values in society. Get it Taliban-lover? Even if religion is OPPOSED, WE DON`T CARE. These are values worth holding-supporting for their own sake.

2) Sharia law, whoseever Fiqh`s Sharia you choose will lead to bloodshed, because it is unacceptable to the others over theirs. Furthermore, it institutionally discriminates against womyn & minorities. I want a civil society where religion is a personal and not state concern so we don`t need to create this problem. I need no ministry of religious affairs to guide me in the practice of my faith, nor do i need spiritual guidence from self proclaimed `ulema` or judges biased by a certain creed in their decision making. All is need is freedom from discrimination, access to my mosque, the choice to pray or not, to grow a beard or not, to consume alcohol or not, to wear jeans or shorts or not, to do what i like in the privacy of my own home, and NOT TO BE LECTURED BY THE STATE ON HOW TO, OR WHETHER TO PRACTICE MY FAITH. IT IS NOT THE BUSINESS OF THE STATE WHAT MY FAITH IS. That is between me & my idol (murti)!

3) Why `within the bounds of Sharia` ? If the dicates of human reason and conscience have advanced over the past 1400 years.

Here you are talking like a blind parrot, your concern is with the hereafter (and i thus advise you to take up residence in Afghanistan, no doubt a place more to your liking), not with ethical standards in keeping with the present, which may represent an improvement on the ridgid application of Sharia, on which `the gates of Ijtehad` were declared closed a thousand years ago; hence the present sorry state of the Islamic world; economically, culturally, politically, scientifically, you name it, there has been no significant independent development because we have closed ourselves to the progress made by the outside world dubbing it `FARANGI` and rejecting it. Your thinking taken to its logical extreme is the PATH OF TALIBANIZATION.

4) The days of religious conflict must end. Non-muslims be treated as equals in society despite the percieved dictates of any majority religion. This is why i stated, a theocratic state and a democracy are incompatible. We must choose.

Talibanization or the Turkish Model (for not only do we need democracy, but we must protect it from the likes of religious fanatics like you, taking it over `democratically` only to destroy it).

I choose Ataturk over Maududi any day of the Millenium. Incidently, majority of mullahs opposed the demand for Pakistan. The people rejected them, and Pakistan was created as a haven from religious and economic discrimination for muslims, thought to be the case in Akhand Bharat once the Brits left. Had we listened to OBSCURANTISTS and their RANTINGS, there would be no Pakistan today. JINNAH IS RESPONSIBLE FOR PAKISTAN. Do YOU THINK HE WOULD HAVE SUPPORTED THE ESTABLISHMENT OF A THEOCRACY, himself being a Bori? You MUST BE MAD! There would be no Pakistan if he had known OBSCURANTISTS LIKE YOU would make it one. He would have sat in London with his bottle of Whiskey and just kept drinking instead of leading the struggle. (And who could blame him?)

You OBSCURANTISTS have some GALL, now telling us how to run Pakistan as as so-called Islamic/theocratic state after all, you are THE IDEOLOGIAL PROGENY OF THE VERY PEOPLE WHO OPPOSED THE CREATION OF PAKISTAN TO BEGIN WITH. NO, you shall have no Sharia, and no further bloodshed in the name of religion as a consequence. Stop parroting things about classic Sunni Islamic doctrine everyone already knows. OPEN UP to a few new ideas. The world has changed a lot over the past 1000 years, though u may wish it hadn`t and would like to turn back the clock.

OMAR MIRZA

Omar 1974

Re post#129

Your proposal is brilliant,if not audacious. I must admit I laughed aloud when I read it. I do admire its spirit.

Just one minor legal technicality: can a man be convicted of raping his wife during that fateful month? Even if she accused him, how could she prove it?!

OMAR1974:#107

Let us first settle on definitions.

``Open mind``--this is somehow always used to describe somebody who places no value on a `a priori` principle.Discussions can only take place within the acceptance of `a priori` principle.A sane mind is one which can exercise judgement & will to open & close..otherwise simply an `open mind` can also act as a sieve.

``Obscurantism``--this word is a loaded word & will always be used by a marxist/socialist/secularist so therefore it has no value in a discussion.

``Islamic learning & practise``---If one is inclined to learn something then one should visit the madressah/masjid as well as the science laboratory.If a persons is bigoted so much as to understand only one then there should be no discussion.I find more successful,award-winning,recognised scientists,businessmen,lawyers etc etc more in number mosque attendees than the other kind.So please understand these facts.



I do not believe in any system which is:

1)Not reflecting the aspiration of the population.

If in doubt,a referendum can be held to let the population declare its faith on an ID(like Passports).WE know majority is muslim,hanafi fiqh,& would like to be ruled under muslim,hanafi fiqh(no matter how `stupid` it may appear to the secularist or to the farangi-addled jurisprudent.

2)Those who govern must take instruction from the governed as their servants & deliver what is necessary to them in the secular affairs.Ability to perform a task with efficiecy & diligence is more important than ones beliefs--tasks like bus driving,surgery,store running etc etc.But all these have to be within the bounds of shariah.

3)minorities,in this case non-muslims,must be recognised as such but given an equal opportunity in all affairs within the shariat.They should be exept from zakat so that their status is re-inforced as minority-one but must pay jazia and so be exempted from military service.The jews used this ploy to evade military service in Germany because in the muslim Spain they were exempted.They forgot that Germany was not practising Islamic Shariah.

Omar Mirza:Please talk to a religious authority.I do not want to name any.The search has to be of your own volition.You will be very pleasntly surprised & awed by the extent of their knowledge in matters legal & cultural.Prominent jurists like Brohi,Kayani & even Mr.Cornelius cannot be wrong in unison.BTW,Mr.Cornelius,a devout christian & supreme court chief justice of Pakistan vehemently favoured the shariah law.His speech in Australia to the International Jurists is a remarkable one.

I will not term your crusade(jihad---in urdu) as quixotic because even Mr.Quixote in his mind was upto something worthwhile.Your zeal & diligence is a sign of a harbinger of great things to come.Please remember that you can chisel your arguments better only by talking to the other party.Find the right `opponent` to sharpen your debating skills.Chowk is a forum for the already `converted` to farangi-ism (not all mind you)-------hence fertile territory for me!!!.

There are some wonderful sites on the net too.If you`ll ask for them I`ll give you their adresses.

wassalaam

PS:A small legal quiz for you.

Lost property found by somebody,let us say a cow------Are finders keepers or not.How does english common law treat it & how does Islamic shariah rules on it(pl.ignore minor variations among different fiqhs).It ties in very neatly with `discoveries` & colonisation.

Shankar re:127

The army is always called out to man the polling stations, and at least in the last elections (first time we were finally on the electoral rolls, I should point out!)were pretty much running the show. In a way it`s ever so ironic that even then, the continuation of the democratic process needed to involve the army.. ah, well. Mind you, it`s pretty much known that Nawaz Sharif`s first electoral victory was thanks to the ISI and manipulation/slush funds. I don`t know how much the army itself was involved in the election proces at that time, though.

Regarding the people`s votes, in the last election, disgusted by BB and A2Z`s corruption, most PPP voters stayed at home. They didn`t vote for NS, but they registered their protest by not voting at all (another factor leading to the Heavy Mandate).

Regarding lack of choice.. that is true, nontheless. The political parties are basically parties of personalities.. even personality cults. Whether PPP, PML, MQM etc.. so options become limited. Personally I think Imran Khan is an idiot (politically.. can`t fault his social work), but he had a lot of good people supporting his new party. Of course, the people not supporting him were the feudal classes (both landed and industrial) so, as Umairr has pointed out on another board, he got thrashed. Those parties know who they can do business with.

Let`s see about the timetable for democracy.. another speech coming up,on 23rd March. Fingers are always crossed..

Cheers, AK

Jay re:126

Not unlike the blase sari statement.. you just don`t read Pakistani newspapers, do you?

Reply #: 123 ali1

First you say

``Why should Islam be the only religion ridiculed and insulted on this board? What is so special about Qadiyaniat? Besides, Mirza Sahib did fall face first in his own feces after dying from cholera.``

Then you say

``Not a day passes in India without a shameful attack on minorities but the shameless (or brain dead) Alices keep on living in their Amar, Akbar, Anthony wonderland.``

Make up your mind whether you hate or care. You cannot do both at the same time.

Omar`s plan for womyn`s Emancipation from the clutches of patriarchy

-- Wasim Sajjad, fmr Chairman senate, and Rhodes Scholar, is reputed to have said on the subject of honor killings when a bill was introduced ``It is a matter of honor, therefore we shall not discuss it.``

I propose a Nation wide UNIVERSAL Sexual boycott be organized throughout Pakistan by womyn from all strata of society (and publicized through both the media, and womyn who are AWARE), educated and uneducated alike, to deny men-husbands sex for 1 month every year in protest, and refuse to get married during that month, till such time as Honor killings are ended as an acceptable custom in society (and Jirgas pass resolutions against them) and so has gender discrimination in society. Womyn should learn to use Sex as a weapon to achieve equality. You see why education is so threatening to the Taliban-lover mentality of FARANGI KUSH and his type? It empowers women. I for one am prepared to forgo Sex for a month in sympathy with this proposed women`s liberation movement voluntarily.

OMAR MIRZA

Pakistan’s Nuclear and Missile Facilities Revealed

http://www.fas.org/eye/indo-pak.html

Pakistan’s Nuclear and Missile Facilities Revealed

News Briefing

When: Wednesday, 9 AM 15 March 2000

Where: National Press Club, Lisagor Room

Contact: John Pike - 202-675-1023

New satellite images of Pakistan’s nuclear and missile facilities provide fresh insight into the nuclear dangers on the subcontinent. The high resolution images, acquired by the Federation of American Scientists from the Space Imaging IKONOS satellite, show details of Pakistan’s weapons facilities previously known only to the secret intelligence world. The public release of these images on the eve of President Clinton’s trip to India and Pakistan highlights the urgency of new initiatives to address the risk of nuclear escalation between these countries.

The Federation’s Public Eye project is acquiring imagery of nuclear and missile facilities around the world. In February it released imagery of the North Korean missile test facility, and imagery of additional facilities will be released in coming weeks.

The imagery covers two of Pakistan’s most important special weapons facilities, the plutonium production reactor at Khushab, and the nearby medium range missile base at Sargodha. Plutonium from the Khushab reactor would probably be used in light-weight nuclear warheads for the M-11 missiles at Sargodha, which Pakistan acquired from China in the early 1990s. The new satellite imagery indicates that construction of the Khushab reactor is essentially complete, and that Pakistan has built a dozen garages for mobile missile launchers and associated vehicles at Sargodha.

“Pakistan has laid the groundwork for a force of dozens of nuclear tipped missiles capable of striking Indian cities and military bases. But Pakistan is in danger of having most of its nuclear eggs in one basket, which would be a tempting target for a pre-emptive Indian attack in a time of crisis,” according to John Pike, who directs the Federation’s Public Eye project. “The United States needs to work with India and Pakistan to reduce this temptation for launching disarming attacks. With Pakistan and India apparently moving ahead with deploying nuclear forces, the danger of such attacks will grow. In the past, American policy focused on preventing these countries from acquiring nuclear weapons. In the future, American policy need a new focus on initiatives to reduce the risk that these weapons will be used.”

Umairr

post#119

((. People get screwed by the rulers, yet the people`s circumstances continue to force them to vote for the same rulers.))

There are 2 possibilities for this

1) The elections are rigged to favor the thugs

2)The common man in Pakistan is incredibly naieve & keeps on voting whoever is in power.

If (1) is correct, there is an easy solution. Let the army man the polling stations & the counting process. Since the people trust the army as a relatively apolitical & honest institution, rigging wont work. Or bring a neutral 3rd party like the UN to supervise the election.

I dont think (2) is correct. In general the Pakistani comman man is no different than his Indian counterpart. When Indira Gandhi imposed the Emergency rule, she was soundly defeated in the next election.

If NS or BB were soon becoming dictators, they would have been soundly defeated in the next election. If those elections were continually rigged, they would endure the condemnation of the West; or there would have been a public uprising.

I think the CE can easily give a timetable for return to democracy. As much as Pakistan resents sermonising from the US/West, they need them to prop up the economy.

Ali1,

You are doing a good service to chowkwalas by posting instances of attack on minorities in India. But they are all from Indian news papers. Can you report one from a non-indian paper, other than the trash about kashmir.

By the way can you post one about honour killing in a pak news paper in the last one month. I forgot how can there be a report when it doesnt take place, pak news papers are `free`.

Regards and happy reading of indian news papers.

Jay.

Random thoughts on religious revenge killings

I`ve met quite a number of Sikhs in New York. Some struck me as nothing more than crude villagers straight from the villages in East Punjab, more than likely capable of commiting barbaric acts, others were disappointingly decent, even likeably, normal human beings like some Sikh posters on Chowk. Its easy to hate people in the abstract. Its quite something else to wield a sword at close quarters on people because they are the `other` religion in the flesh standing right before you. I have to wonder what it takes to make the transition between those two things.

Nonetheless, while perhaps it is foolish to expect justice, i think i would feel much better if the people responsible had been caught and punished according to law in a court, or if the states and communities had cared enough to bring individual people to book for their deeds on both sides of the border. That didn`t happen, and i think it has something to do with the bitterness between India & Pakistan to this day.

Hypothetically speaking, in a fantasy world, blowing up a Gurdwara in East Punjab, and publicizing why it was done [as important as the act itself in the absence of justice], would solve nothing. On the one hand, entirely innocent people would be affected, innocent of the deeds in question that is and might this not be exactly the kind of thinking those Sikhs on the train did? On the other hand, wouldn`t the act itself be just as equally, ironically, indiscriminate as killings on a train with a religious twist? Would that be just, or unjust, under the circumstances? On the other hand, perhaps the grandchildren of the muderers and rapists might be among the victims. A Christian saying comes to mind, `the Lord works in mysterious ways.` Is there such a thing as a Communal revenge? Can it ever be justified? Isin`t that why we have a system of justice, to insure that the state, rather than individuals administers justice? And when that system fails, then we return to the natural system of self-help, of individuals taking matters into their own hands. Regardless of `who started it,`

Well, lets hope, `it doesn`t have to happen again` as someone said in a post.

Comments welcome.

OMAR MIRZA

Re:Pardesi#117

This is exactly what we need. Indians and Pakistanis, especially the ones who were affected by partition, should offer a combined apology to each other. This is the first step to heal those deep wounds, before we can talk about Kashmir and all that other good stuff. Pardesi and Dullabhatti, I am proud of you guys. It is nice to see that this generation is realizing the mistakes of the past.

Omar, I have attacked you in the past but I truly feel sorry for what happened to your family. What is even more tragic is that people across the border share common bloodlines in many cases. For instance, the Chief Minister of undivided Punjab, Khizr Hayat Tiwana had Sikh and Hindu relatives with the last name Tiwana. He used to regularly correspond with them before and after partition. How could people that shared the same bloodlines butcher each other ? We will never know.