The Bombing

In reply to temporal, #122 :

- Arun, Rabia Basri was one of the few women saints

- in Islam. What were you trying to say by quoting

- this incident?

My turn to be enigmatic :-)

Perhaps it is a variation on the theme of the mobile Kaaba. I prefer Rabia`s method to yours.

-arun

In reply to temporal, #122 :

- Arun, Rabia Basri was one of the few women saints

- in Islam. What were you trying to say by quoting

- this incident?

My turn to be enigmatic :-)

Perhaps it is a variation on the theme of the mobile Kaaba.

-arun

Re: temporal

I am not aware of any web-site, temporal. But I think you might be able to find a copy in a major Univ.`s library. I forget whether it was Berkeley or Irvine, but these guys had Faiz, Ghalib and Iqbal in their huge collection. For a homesick Pakistani, I still remember my excitement at finding that treasure trove.

Regards,

Amir

PM:#115

Blind following.You see PM,what most people do not realise is that if a true adherent to his/her faith performs certain rites & rituals, that person is termed as a `blind follower`(which incidentally most of them are!but I believe it is their right to be so as long as no one else is being disturbed)but when similar acts are performed by the secularist,atheist,agnostic & the free-for-allers then they do not view(?) their behaviour as blind following.

Wearing tattered jeans,grundge dressing,nose-ring piercing etc etc are not blind followings.This is fashion.You become a fan.But when you follow the sunnat(esentially life-style practice) of that greatest man who ever graced this universe and try to follow it to the letter then you are not a fan,you are a fanatic--same stroke,different beat.

The english-school hegemony & exploitation must be uprooted from the (former)colonies.These people when they get plum jobs really bring ruin & dishonour to their countries,because most of them are super-jahils & are not even aware of their jahalat.Sifarish,money,& influence are their IQs.

No other countries do what these countries do.These countries will take off only when english becomes a language of science & commerce but not that of literature & culture.

wassalaam.

macgupta #116:

Arun, Rabia Basri was one of the few women saints in Islam. What were you trying to say by quoting this incident?

rgds

t

PM #115
You say, “.... but might not the traditional precriptions help us jump-start the process?”
Pls. read the first 2-3 paragraphs in #119.
rgds

t

rajanjua #113:

Is there a site where you can access “Reconstruction...” on the net?

rgds

t

Fozia #107 & 108:

:):):):):):):) ----enough?

Be good. Be true. Be yourself. That is a good -------- (fill in yourself).


Intercession or emulation (last para re#106) is not a good rationale. For the former, there is Allah and their is you, direct, accessible, simple. For emulation you study lives, not graves.


You say, “However is the Qur’an really just a ``simple straightforward book`` as you put it? From my angle, the Qur’an is a book full of symbolism and essentially a very complex collection of poetry.”

Must apologise for my lapse. I winced when I read ‘straight forward’. Wrong word. Someone slapped meself on the wrist. The thought I wanted to convey was if by magic, every single Aalim was recalled to paradise this instant, we would have enough books and tafsir to be able to survive and thrive.


Again, you say, “In Qom, Iran, there is such a system in place for Shia scholars. Not just anybody can become an ``ayatollah``, it takes many many years of study and ``promotions`` so to speak before this happens..”


Agreed, and very perceptive. Sadly, in the Sunnis I am not aware of any such rigorous scholarship criteria. Tomorrow, if I stop shaving I can call myself Sufi or Maulvi without anyone battling an eyebrow.

And when the beard has attained a sufficient length, I can be a Maulana. (I mean look at that fellow Azhar Masood. Maulana? What are his credentials? Courage of his convictions?) If the Government of Pakistan starts charging licensing fees of Rs. 10,000 per year for the use of such titles, they could offer free education (& not the Nizamiya nisaab, thank you) to every single child.

regards

temporal

Re : Temporal (#99) : what makes a fundamentalist ?

A coincidence, perhaps, that another browser page was open on a Dawn opinion piece, by Kuldip Nayar :

Quote :

Wearing religion on one`s sleeve does not disturb me so much as making a fetish out of it and pursuing it single-mindedly. For this is what fundamentalism is. It shuts out any idea, which comes into conflict with Hindutva``

End quote.

It is not being simple, leading a simple life, etc., that makes one fundamentalist, at least in current usage. It is the closing of the mind. We do not know if the farmer who asked the Prophet a question was close-minded or not; but the very fact that he asked the Prophet something, the reply to which might have disagreed with his previous understanding suggests that he was not.

Regarding one man`s terrorist being another man`s freedom fighter -- that is a neat evasion of having to think. It is very often clear, by objective definition, who is a terrorist. The key is to see how one treats others with the same goals, but perhaps different methods or organization than oneself.

For example, the LTTE ( Tamil Tigers) have assassinated other leaders of groups also struggling for Tamil independence, until the LTTE is virtually the only visible group left.

Mahatma Gandhi`s Congress and Subhash Chandra Bose`s INA obviously disagreed on the means to independence for India, but not on the goal. Neither went about assassinating the other side.

A similar discussion could be held, but, please, not here, on the different groups in Kashmir.

Or the PLO.

Thus, considering Bose`s INA, it would be a group to which the cliche applies : one man`s freedom fighter, another`s terrorist. But for a great many groups today, there is no doubt as to what they are.

-arun gupta

Re: temporal

Not trying to change the five pillars. Merely echoing some thoughts, maybe a bit bluntly.

Re: Altaf Bhimji

Tents and boats aside, Abul-Hasan Kharaqani muses:

``Patched cloack and prayer carpet do not make a Sufi, nor practice or custom; the Sufi is he who is not.``

Re: macgupta

Thank you for your post about Rabia. I had almost forgotten this story.

Regards,

Amir Janjua

[Quoting]

Another tale tells how the Kaaba rose up and came forward to meet Rabia when she was making her pilgrimage to Mecca. She commented,``What have I to do with the house, it is the Lord of the house I need.``

Meanwhile an eminent fellow Sufi, Ibrahim ibn Adham, was taking many years over his pilgrimage to Mecca, piously stopping to perform ritual prayers many times along the way. Arriving at Mecca and seeing no Kaaba, he thought his eyes were at fault until a voice informed him that the Kaaba had gone forth to meet a woman. When Rabia and the Kaaba arrived together, Rabia informed Ibrahim, who was consumed with jealousy that the Kaaba had so honored here, that whereas he crossed the desert making ritual prayers, she came in inward prayer.

Faragi_Kush:

Your reply to fozia (#114) was mine (minus the references to Paki and Indian low-life). Yes, birhtdays and anniversaries are the Western rituals that are taking on greater significance, I think, as the rituals of yore (mostly reliously rooted) are less observed. One question, though: what makes one set of rituals more `low-life` than another? How do you rate the value of a ritual?

Altaf Bhimji:

I fully agree with you on that rituals are not [necessarily] empty observances, but can have profound impact on the psyche. At a non-rational level, they have the power ot provide centeredness, take us to that special place inside ourselves, and help adjust our bearings. Also, importantly, many rituals provide the sense of connectedness, relatedness with others that is so important, I think, for our spiritual well-being. This right attitude naturally leads to right thoughts actions, to use Buddhistspeake.

Ans as you point out, it is only when the rituals lose their power to affect us experientially and are reduced to dogma, that they lose their value or indeed turn harmful. (Could we say they become idols then?) Just though that was significant enought to re-state.

temp:

Liked what you said about ``whatever helps us find out peace..`` The suggestions you used were very evocative. `Centering`-- just in their contemplation. Yes, to each his own, but might not the traditional precriptions help us jump-start the process?

Fozia:

Your posts have been enlightening.

JR: Glad *someone * read through and appreciated that long and badly formatted post (#79). You might like the last post on the only other board you addressed me.

regards,

PM

fazia:

You really want to know the importance of rituals? Only when you do it you lovingly call them observance,practises,and manana.

Here they are,for a lot of low-life pakis & Indians these are now `religion`,but their greatest excuse is to say ``this I do not do religious` reasons:

1. Birthdays

2.Anniversaries.

3.Anniversaries

4.Valentines

5.Christmas

6.Basant

7.New years Night

8.Mothers & Fathers day

etc etc----add more if you know some.

I agree that not all Indo-Pakis are low-lifes enough to observe all of the above but my main point is that these cease to be `rituals` because there is no `religion` invoved.Please try to skip it & then see the uproar--the reaction you will get will tell you that it is not only a ritual but it has seeped so deep that it has become a dogma!!!

It is always my FUN,your PRACTICE,& his RITUAL.

Words,words words & nothing but words.

wassalaam.



PS:I am resisting to jump into this opportunity to be tempted to `flaunt` my `knoweledge` about Islam.

MAZHABI BEHSS MEIN NAY KEE HEE NAHEEN

FAALTOO AQL MUJH MEIN THHEE HEE NAHEEN.

translation: Religious discourse I delved in none,Brains & spared ones,I had none.

There are very learned people on such matters right outside the doorstep.

Re: fozia

I don`t have anything against visiting shrines. In fact I am a firm believer in complete freedom of exercise in religious beliefs for everyone. I am strongly against imposition of any type of law based on religion-

My post was just to express my feelings that rituals can and most of the time do overwhelm the actual message.

On your discussion of Qura`n let me add a few thoughts of Iqbal:

``Unfortunately, the conservative Muslim public of this country is not yet quite ready for a critical discussion of `Fiqh` which, if undertaken, is likely to displease most people, and raise sectarian controversies; yet I venture to offer a few remarks on the point before us.

1. In the first place, we should bear in mind that from the earliest times, practically upto the rise of the Abbasides, there was no written law of Islam apart from the Qur`an.

2. Secondly, it is worthy of note that from about the middle of the first century up to the beginning of the fourth not less than ninteen schools of law and legal opinion appeared in Islam. This fact alone is sufficient to show how incessantly our early doctors of law worked in order to meet the necessities of a growing civilization. With the expansion of conquest and the consequent widening of the outlook of Islam these early legists had to take a wider view of things, and to study local conditions of life and habits of new peoples that came within the fold of Islam. A careful study of the various schools of legal opinion, in the light of contemporary social and political history, reveals that they gradually passed from the deductive to the inductive attitude in their efforts at interpretation.

3. Thirdly, when we study the four accepted sources of Mohammadan Law and the controversies which they invoked, the supposed rigidity of our recognized schools evaporates, and the possibility of a further evolution becomes perfectly clear. Let us briefly discuss these sources.

(a) Qur`an-

The primary source of Law of Islam is the Qur`an. The Qur`an, however is not a legal code. Its main purpose, as I have said before, is to awaken in man the higher consiousness of his relation with God and the universe. No doubt, the Qur`an does lay down a few general principles and rules of a legal nature, especially relating to the family-the ultimate basis of social life....Turning now to the groundwork of legal principles in Qur`an, it is perfectly clear that far from leaving no scope for human thought and legislative activity the intensive breadth of these principles virtually acts as an awakener of human thought. Our early doctors of law taking their clue mainly from this groundwork evolved a number of legal systems; and the student of Mohammedan history knows very well that nearly half the triumphs of Islam as a social and political pwer were due to the legal acuteness of these doctors. `Next to Romans`, says von Kremer, `there is no other nation besides Arabs which could call its own a system of law so carefully worked out.` But with all their comprehensiveness these systems are after all individual interpretations, and as such cannot claim finality. I know the Ulema of Islam claim finality for the popular schools of Mohammedan Law, though they never found it possible to deny the theoretical possibility of a complete ``Ijtehad``. I have tried to explain the cause which, in my opinion, determined this attitude of the Ulema; but since things have changed and the world of Islam is confronted and affected today by new forces set free by the extraordinary development of human thought in all its directions, I see no reason why this attitude should be maintained any longer. Did the founders of our schools ever claim finality for their reasoning and interpretations? Never. The claim of the present generation of Muslim liberals to reinterpret the foundational legal principles, in the light of their own experience and the altered conditions of modern life is, in my opinion, perfectly justified. The teaching, of the Qur`an that life is a process of progressive creation necessitates that each generation guided but unhapmered by the work of its predecessors, should be permitted to solve its own problems.

-Reconstruction of Religious Thought in Islam

I think ultimately we cannot pass judgment on those who do visit shrines (for whatever reasons) or place a certain level of emphasis on symbols that some might find to be excessive.

Each individual has a different experience, for some this may not be the best way, for others it may be... for some it may be a hope of intercession, for others a way of ``emulation`` . Whatever it may be, these are spiritual and personal things - I don`t think we can criticize people`s spiritual expressions. We can, however, wonder about our own intentions...

There is a story in the Mathnawi about Moses coming accross a sheperd praying in what Moses found to be a strange manner, Moses admonishes the Sheperd, and God admonishes Moses...

``In the Hindu the idiom of Hind is praiseworthy; in the Sindh the idiom of Sindh is praiseworthy. ``

This is also in the Quran where (paraphrasing) it says to each we have given a way...

ali1

O Charyay, Imam Din ki jaga kisi or ko bhi parh lay. Ab toon athween jamat may nahin hay.