The Bombing

tEMPORAL:

I`m sure you knew that the theme of your article

was bound to be lost on many readers, what with

the earth-shattering (no pun intended!) prologue.

As much as it jarred the emotions, though, I can

see what must’ve been one motive --among others,

I’m sure ;-) -- behind the shocking beginning…

that is, to incite and provoke the ‘hungama’ you

seem to like so much. (Maybe it just takes one to

know one ;-)

Thoroughly enjoyed the style-- to say nothing of

the content—imaginative, insightful (inciteful?)

and engaging as we’ve come to expect. Also, am

glad you made clear your hope that the

‘qiamatesque’ event never takes place. That could

truly be Armageddon.

(Although… hmmm… if we look at the only instance

of the destruction of a shrine of the proportion

of the Ka’ba, we see the resulting renaissance of

Judaism-- the Jewish Reformation, if you like.

Could that have been your ‘inspiration’? Pre-AD

70 Judaism was pretty much the ritual-and-dogma

affair that progressive Muslims would like to

rescue Islam from today. Maybe you do feel that

change necessitates a shock of that those

proportions? Would like to know your considered

response)

As for the Interact!, gosh, you must be drooling,

knowing how much you enjoy the kash-makash. To

answer Saima’s query on the wrong board, this is

what the Chowk is all about, eh!? Listening,

learning, growing…Your reply macgupta’s query I

found particularly interesting, as I find myself

with the same identity crises viz religion,

something we’ve already talked about on another

board. You haven’t replied to his follow up

question in #57. For what it’s worth, I’d like to

offer my take on it. temp, tell me how relevant

it is to your experiences…

Arun Gupta writes: ``I do not understand. How does

the hatred and bigotry of one set of people

invalidate your beliefs, your character, your soul

? You may lack the influence that the

fatwa-issuers have, but that is not a crime or a

sin. All that you can do, that you are expected to

do, is to stand up for what you believe in. The

outcome is whatever it is, that is where faith,

optimism and patience come into the picture.``

It /doesn’t/ invalidate one’s beliefs, character,

etc. Nor does it prevent one from ``standing up

for what one believes in``. The reluctance to a

accept a label might stem from what the label has

come to be associated with, or from a genuine

appreciation of nuances of the label and a respect

for that (widely accepted) definition. To cite my

own experience, since I follow the precepts of

Christ (strictly speaking-- that is, not Paul or

John etc.), I might call myself a Christian. But

his divinity is generally accepted by Christians

(ever since a little after his death) as a

necessary belief for Christians. Ergo, my

reluctance. But this in no way invalidates my

beliefs, character etc. Furthermore --and

importantly! -- there is the feeling that one

needs to transcend these divisive labels and see

oneself as, first and last, part of the family

called the Human Race. In that sense, maybe, the

‘question

Nushmia_Zia_Khokhar #70:

Thank you. Glad you could see the amusing side.

You say, “.....maybe the nukes will replace the kankar of the ababeel if the need arose!!!!”

Did you know that Surahs 105 (Al Fayl – the Elephant) and 106 (the Quraish) were considered as one Surah and read as one without a Bismillah between them by Omar in congregation? And the stones of baked clay dropped by flying birds were allegorical references to the insect ridden germs that wiped out the invading Yemenite Army with a pox like disease? Also the later part of Quraish where Allah extends his protection to Quraish is cited by extension as His promise of a protection of the ‘temple’?

regards,

temporal


PS: I am struck by another irony from your quoting of Surah Al Fayl ---- if it was pox then could it be AIDS next? Just wondering.

Zeemax #68 & #67:

Thank you Zeemax.

(Your article is a perplexing maze, full of symbolism. Simply brilliant.)

Why would I run you in circles? I am not like that, ask SR. Will attempt to answer your queries in the same order.

1) We arrived in St. Lucia on Oct 11, 1999 to celebrate a special occasion. This was a period between the two powerful hurricanes that lashed the Eastern Carribean last year. We had a late night. Next morning we got up rather late and tumbling off the bed, still in some daze I turned on the television. The previous occupant had left the channel set on BBC World News. There was a breaking news from Pakistan--- you guessed it.

It was too humid, and am no beach bum. (Went out to Paradise Point, past Hawkes Bay once when I was in college, and acquired enough tan to last this lifetime!) So we snuck back into the cool comfort of the suite. And watched lots of BBC and CN and Newsworld that Oct 12.

Guess the irony of so much happening world wide that day must have left an impression in the deeper recesses of the sub conscious.

* * * *Was Andrea born on that date too ? ------Don’t know. Will ask when I meet her next!

* * * *Why did Abdullah abandon her to catch the next flight home ?-----Allah works in mysterious ways. This was the turning point in his life. Have alluded before about this early Islam playboy-prince who made an 180 degree turn and became a pious and successful leader.

* * * * Were Abdullah and Uri, Omar Bin Tahrir actually twin brothers ? ----You mean triplets? No, how can they be? They each had different destinies to fulfil.

2)”The concept of Ka`aba moving to other places was perhaps initiated by Hazrat Mansoor Hussain Bin Al-Hallaj who had (as the legend goes) erected the same in his neighborhood.”

----I was waiting for SR -- Sohail Rabbani to pick up on this, but perhaps he hasn’t returned from the holy lands.

In addition to Ka’aba standing for what it is- a house of worship, House of Allah, so central to a Muslim’s belief , I was trying to introduce another element. Maybe my choice of words did not elicit the response I had in mind.
As the story goes, Abraham ostensibly rid Ka’aba of 360+ idols – one for every day of the year. And here we are in 1420AH almost succeeding in turning it into one final idol!

Where is the spirit of Haj?

2) * * * *“Jinnahabad sounds like Jinnahpur of MQM. How come Multan is included in Jinnahpur aka Jinnahabad ? Pls explain. Did you mean to say that Pakistan will not exist in it`s present form and just picked a suitable name for the new entity.

------Chaudhry Rehmat Ali’s dream and coinage had no “I”. PAKSTAN – that’s how he spelled it,
It is ironical that the “I” has destroyed Pakistan as he and Iqbal had dreamt of. (Do you know that he was alive after partition and he returned to Pakistan in 1948, and our state agencies hounded and deported him out of Pakistan? And he died an unsung hero and a pauper in England? And his college colleague paid for his funeral out of his pocket? (Ahsan out of Cambridge has a site dedicated to him: if interested I will post the address later).

While I am at this, have you considered who was the idiot that approved of the waning moon as a symbol on our flag? The rising Crescent is tilted from the right to the left, And the waning one is as shown presently on our flag. I have a set of stamps that were issued in the denominations of 1 anna, 1 ½ anna and 2 anna that depicted the rising crescent. They were recalled and reissued with waning moon.

Today’s Pakistan is not Jinnah’s ideal. Hence my liberty of Jinnahabad.

Hope I have answered all your queries.

regards

temporal

Zehra #66:

Glad you enjoyed ‘bikhray moti’. Can I expect a detailed critique later?

Was looking forward to response on Saima’s as well. Oh well….. damn the genii!

Lve
t

sac #64:

Interesting thoughts on Iran’s experiment with ‘controlled democracy’. Reading between the lines on Bilal’s article, I am guessing that he is pretty close to concluding in favour of controlled democracy. But that wasn’t the thrust of this story.

You also say, “The dish antennas and the unfettered movement of women without hijab in the larger cities lulls one into a sense of false security but underneath it all is a very strong current of disenchantment with the system and the injustices it has meted out to the majority of the people. The rest of the Islamic world with minor variations has the same problem. And God forbid if they decide to use religion as an antidote, what you outline in your article may look like a walk in Central Park in comparison.”

When one ponders an average bread earners salary in Pakistan, and start budgeting it for his/her family of five, no matter how creative one becomes the deficit stares in the face. To make for the shortfall, they have to cut corners. They have to sell --- sell off family heirlooms, furniture, valuables, till in desperation they will learn to sell off daughters, wives, drugs, in short their ‘eemaan’ to survive. Can they, and vicariously us are in any position to claim anything from our Islamic heritage? Yes it is a matter of time before the house of card crumbles. No amount of electrifying Azaans will lure Allah to intervene. The tank is half full; but really it is half empty.

Even if Musharraf and his Corp Commanders are sincere, there is an overwhelming probability that they will fail, because the bureaucracy will hinder any moves to straighten out the mess. Hope I am wrong.

Sadly,

temporal

Re: OM #56 & #21

Sir,

You seem to be a proud Hindu who feels privilaged to belong to a religion that does not trample over other people`s faith. You also seem to be quite agitated at the fact that Islamic conquerors pludered your `land` and trampled over your `faith`.

So in response you propose to nuke the holy shrines of Islam? And that would be in keeping with the fine traditions of your faith??

I thought I will ignore your drivel like most people have but enough is enough yaar!

And by the way `Hindu Cowards` have not `allowed` to let 140 million muslims to `thrive & multiply` in India. Number one, Indian Muslims dont need anybody`s permission to live in India. And Number two, sadly they are not exactly `thriving` either.

When I first interacted with Pakistanis, to my great surprise I found that the stereotypical Indian for a Pakistani was a rabid safron clad rightwinger. And I was told that this impression was based primarilty on web based interaction. Now I know... its probably due to numbnuts like you!

Too long to hold my interest. Yawn.

Let us assume an enemy XYZ (may be the West, US, Israel or even India) is out there to get Pakistan. What are the strategies XYZ can imply to weaken Pakistan militarily and economically?

1) To weaken Pakistan militarily will require an embargo on the sale of new weapons and the spare parts for the old weapons. XYZ may also bomb strategic targets (and not Ka’aba). A militarily weakened Pakistan will be so destabilizing to the whole area and the world that no serious enemy will even consider it. Moreover, the best way to show animosity lately has been to destroy the economy.

2) In order to weaken Pakistan economically, XYZ can select a combination of steps including forcing an increase in military spending and trade embargoes.

The strategies mentioned above require open hostility on the part of XYZ. There is no credible reason for XYZ to embark upon such hostilities. Under current circumstances, it is best for XYZ to utilize internal forces to implode the society. One such force at hand for XYZ is Islamic system and the process of Islamization. According to XYZ’s assessment, a high-entropy orthodoxical Islamic approach is the most suitable direction to bring down Pakistan. The Islamic system as XYZ perceives, is based on few successful examples of more than 1000 years old and applicable only to small tribal societies. In modern times and over much larger societies, it will have devastating effects, including exclusion from the world monetary system, over population, elimination of half the population i.e., women folks, from any meaningful contribution to economic well being, lowering of education standards due to madrassahs as well as spending several hours everyday in non-learning activities of going, praying and coming back from the mosque five times a day as compared to those who might spent all this time studying and learning and parents spending time in the mosques instead of spending it with their children; praying to God for marrying off their daughters instead of trying to find grooms. It will also lead to isolation, destabilization, disorderness and sectarian violence. XYZ does not have to take any adverse action, they just have to tacitly approve and expedite the process of Islamization.

A supporter of Islamic system thinks otherwise. A mullah, based on his rudimentary education in a madrassah thinks Islamic system as a panacea for all ills, including economic problems. It is based upon his belief rather than the knowledge of politics, international relations, economics and sociology. It is also a power play for the priestly class. Exploitation has been the name of the game since the time immemorial. The organized religions have provided the priestly class power over fellow human beings in the areas of ethics, morality, spirituality and imagination. They would like to continue holding on to power in the same way a politician, monarch, colonialist or a capitalist would like.

Although it appear that supporters of Islamic system like, JI, JUI, JUP, SSP, HUM, TJ, LT, Taliban and host of other parties are anti-XYZ but both groups aspire different results from similar path. It is up to the thinking, educated and truly patriotic people to decide whose projections are realistic; those of sociologists, economists, philosophers and specialists with the help of past and present data with computer simulations or dreamers with madrassah education or followers of dreamers with madrassah education.

In my personal opinion, there is no XYZ out there. It is with in us. Only those people can support such a path who, willingly or inadvertently, want to harm Pakistan. The only way to a successful Pakistan is through secular, liberal, nationalistic, progressive, rational, intelligent and honest approach to the current situation.

[Please disregard the previous post as there is a very important correction in serial no.(1)

t,

Your article is a perplexing maze, full of symbolism. Simply brilliant.

The text is very real, indeed sage like as was 1984 of George Orwell. Orwell had predicted there eventually would be only three countries in the world .. Oceania, Eastasia, and was the third Europa ? I can`t recall.

To quote the essence ` a miserable world where the ``government`` is constantly at war with its people in which it manipulates the truth so freely that even those that do manipulate it for it cannot remember the original truth.`

I found some aspects striking in your article but I know you will run me around in circles if I seek clarification ;-)

1)Abdullah, Uri and Omar Bin Tahrir were all born on the same day i.e. 12 October 1999. On this date the six billionth baby was born, the new Indonesian President took oath, and the military took over Pakistan yet again. Which one of these events prompted your choice of date ? Or was it all three ? Was Andrea born on that date too ? Why did Abdullah abandon her to catch the next flight home ? Were Abdullah and Uri, Omar Bin Tahrir actually twin brothers ?

2)The concept of Ka`aba moving to other places was perhaps initiated by Hazrat Mansoor Hussain Bin Al-Hallaj who had (as the legend goes) erected the same in his neighborhood.

3) Jinnahabad sounds like Jinnahpur of MQM. How come Multan is included in Jinnahpur aka Jinnahabad ? Pls explain. Did you mean to say that Pakistan will not exist in it`s present form and just picked a suitable name for the new entity. Your reason perhaps is that Punjab will carry Jinnah`s name for itself. However I would prefer to call the new entity Mahinwal rather than Jinnahabad. No Purs and Abad`s for this land. We need to go back to our roots for our true nomenclature and not adopted ones.

In any case, a most noble attempt, temporal, in the correct direction. I only have one reservation. Your article seems to have stoked the fires in some of our Indian bretheren (Om)as our acceptance that Islam is wrong and the `Bombing` would have been justified though catastrophic. My total respect to Om for his views but I do not deem Islam to be so. Perhaps temporal you should not have written this in this time of great civilizational tension.

I reproduce a poem posted earlier by Farangi_Kush, without his permission. I am sure he will forgive me.

``RAAT BHUR JAAGTAY RAHTAY HAIN DUKANOWN KAY CHIRAGH.

DIL VOH SUNSAAN JAZEERAH KAY BUJHAA REHTA HAI

LEKIN ISS BUUND JAZEERAY KAY KISI GOASHAY MEIN

ZAAT KA BAAB_E_TILISMAAT KHULAA REHTAA HAI

UPNI HEE ZAAT MEIN PUUSTI KAY KHANDAR MILTAY HAIN

UPNI HEE ZAAT MEIN IK KOH_I_NIDA REHTA HAI

SIRF IS KOH KAY DAAMAN MEIN MAYYASAR HAI NIJAAT

AADMI VARNA ANAASIR MEIN GHIRA REHTA HAI

AUR JUB INSAY BHEE GHABRA KAY UTHATA HAI NAZAR

UPNAY ALLAH KI AUR UPNAY KHUDA KI JAANIB

AHHEEHU_NAAS CHALO KOHI_NIDA KI JAANIB.

God Speed to you t.

Rgds.

Reply #: 58 temporal

t,

My brother just keep your faith. The five tenets of Islam have been ridiculed. If Zakat was used as an indirect tax forcing people to evade it, that does not mean the whole concept was wrong. I say remove all taxes and just let Zakat remain, and everyone will pay it, and there will be more revenue than the paltry Rs 370 billion target now. Zakat is for the welfare of the people and it is the only tax in an Islamic system .. 2.5 %, that`s all. Taxes in Pakistan now are about 40 % direct taxes and about 30 % indirect ( GST, Excise duty, surcharges ). How can people pay that ? Zakat on top of that ? They will simply not pay it.

I will not comment on the other tenets for fear of sounding like a mullah .. but they are all for a specific purpose. All of them.

Rgds.

t, i posted a response when i first read this two days back..it must be lost in cyberspace..

this was lovely. simple, creative and fun to read. little gems strewn throughout it :)

i responded to your comment on saima`s piece too...that didn`t show up either..but..i was thinking the same thing about the same line ( wry grins at the lines i write to see the different responses it would get)..you just got to it first.. :)

take care,

rizvi

t,

Your article is a perplexing maze, full of symbolism. Simply brilliant.

The text is very real, indeed sage like as was 1984 of George Orwell. Orwell had predicted there eventually would be only three countries in the world .. Oceania, Eastasia, and was the third Europa ? I can`t recall.

To quote the essence ` a miserable world where the ``government`` is constantly at war with its people in which it manipulates the truth so freely that even those that do manipulate it for it cannot remember the original truth.`

I found some aspects striking in your article but I know you will run me around in circles if I seek clarification ;-)

1)Abdullah, Uri and Omar Bin Tahrir were all born on the same day i.e. 12 October 1999. On this date the six billionth baby was born, the new Indonesian President took oath, and the military took over Pakistan yet again. Which one of these events prompted your choice of date ? Or was it all three ? Was Andrea born on that date too ? Why did Abdullah abandon her to catch the next flight home ?

2)The concept of Ka`aba moving to other places was perhaps initiated by Hazrat Mansoor Hussain Bin Al-Hallaj who had (as the legend goes) erected the same in his neighborhood.

3) Jinnahabad sounds like Jinnahpur of MQM. How come Multan is included in Jinnahpur aka Jinnahabad ? Pls explain. Did you mean to say that Pakistan will not exist in it`s present form and just picked a suitable name for the new entity. Your reason perhaps is that Punjab will carry Jinnah`s name for itself. However I would prefer to call the new entity Mahinwal rather than Jinnahabad. No Purs and Abad`s for this land. We need to go back to our roots for our true nomenclature and not adopted ones.

In any case, a most noble attempt, temporal, in the correct direction. I only have one reservation. Your article seems to have stoked the fires in some of our Indian bretheren (Om)as our acceptance that Islam is wrong and the `Bombing` would have been justified though catastrophic. My total respect to Om for his views but I do not deem Islam to be so. Perhaps temporal you should not have written this in this time of great civilizational tension.

I reproduce a poem posted earlier by Farangi_Kush, without his permission. I am sure he will forgive me.

``RAAT BHUR JAAGTAY RAHTAY HAIN DUKANOWN KAY CHIRAGH.

DIL VOH SUNSAAN JAZEERAH KAY BUJHAA REHTA HAI

LEKIN ISS BUUND JAZEERAY KAY KISI GOASHAY MEIN

ZAAT KA BAAB_E_TILISMAAT KHULAA REHTAA HAI

UPNI HEE ZAAT MEIN PUUSTI KAY KHANDAR MILTAY HAIN

UPNI HEE ZAAT MEIN IK KOH_I_NIDA REHTA HAI

SIRF IS KOH KAY DAAMAN MEIN MAYYASAR HAI NIJAAT

AADMI VARNA ANAASIR MEIN GHIRA REHTA HAI

AUR JUB INSAY BHEE GHABRA KAY UTHATA HAI NAZAR

UPNAY ALLAH KI AUR UPNAY KHUDA KI JAANIB

AHHEEHU_NAAS CHALO KOHI_NIDA KI JAANIB.

God Speed to you t.

Rgds.

regarding temporal #39:

Dear t:

Iran deserves serious watching because it may be harbinger of things to come in the Islamic world. It would be interesting to see if the rest of the Islamic world takes a dreadful detour into mullah rule before coming into its senses or it will move onto ``controlled democracy`` as Iran is experimenting with right now.

It may be over-stretching to base ones predictions based on the Iranian experience alone because just like Egypt it had a rich cultural heritage and identity to draw upon before the imposition of a largely bedouin and Arab religion. Being the largest Shia country also is a distinguishing mark. As an interesting aside, I remember my father telling me that the most noteworthy thing he saw while in Teheran in the mid 70`s was the row upon row of Persian translations of works of Proust, Balzac and Tolstoy being sold on the street corners and apparently doing very well!!

Unlike some of my other countrymen(and women), I don`t buy the argument about Pakistanis rejecting the Islamist parties because it doesn`t jive with their worldview. I think there is an overwhelming probability of mullahs eventually taking over the country. Whether they`ll do it by subterfuge(some bearded general) or through popular credentials remains to be seen. The economic woes Pakistan is going through has allowed otherwise sane and secular-minded people to flip.

I recently went back home and I think the society is probably more closed and polarized than in even Zia`s more repressive times. The dish antennas and the unfettered movement of women without hijab in the larger cities lulls one into a sense of false security but underneath it all is a very strong current of disenchantment with the system and the injustices it has meted out to the majority of the people. The rest of the Islamic world with minor variations has the same problem. And God forbid if they decide to use religion as an antidote, what you outline in your article may look like a walk in Central Park in comparison.

regards

Om:# 56

The authorities I have quoted were not historians.They were scientists,anthropologists,& chroniclers of the times.They wrote in an atmosphere of scorn & vilification by the kings & invaders.Their impartiality is recognised by everyone.Even by their severest critics.

Please read! The very first revelation to the prophet(sw) was ``Read! in the name of thy Lord,the Sustainer.........etc etc.

The best source for you would be ``A North American young Muslims guide to Islam`` by Hussein Nasser.Caution & warning:You might convert!

And that is not my intent.

wassallaam.



CHOWKWAALO:I do not know why some of my posts do not get through.If it is a problem with other posties too then may be they should let you & us know as well.The system,otherwise,works so well that I never save the draft.Also,the freshness of the reply suffers.

I am pretty sure it is not some muhtisab(auditor).

wassalaam.

The most insane article I have ever had the misfortune to waste my time on!

Om:#56

Because these were NOT written by invaders or their sycophants.These writers themselves were subjected to the scorn & non-patronage of the invaders.

Please read THEN call.Thank you very much.

wassalaam

PS:Rest of your `speech` is meaningless.You are really supporting my viewpoint.Were any of these religious wars? Were not the looters and plunderers kings,presidents,prime-ministers (ALL Secularists!!! none avowed & promoters of religion.Where & when was the war for a higher purpose other than to grab territory,trade & subjugate?The closest we know is were the christain crusades & even there the role of the enemy is highly praised & respected by Sultan Salah-uddin Ayyubis.Acknowledged & duly recorded by the `enemy` as such.Please Read!

The Conquerers of land & people got conquered by the creed(the Mongols!!).They still are fierce adherents to that creed.Try to find another example & then call me.