The Bombing

ad:#42

Thanks for your kind words.

Please understand.This I am requesting you as a an impartial & objective observer(justice lover?).

The invaders were not interested in the religion of their own.Few kings are.We in Islam call it malookiyat which is opposite to Khilafat.Waging war for loot,plunder,& conversion is not Islamic but at the same time we cannot call these kings non-muslims either.These kings did not view the pundits,brahmins,& mahints as pious religious persons either.They viewed them as fellow plunderers.Most of the local populace was also happy to support the invaders because they were sick & tired of exploitation by the religious-king-usurpers(temple keepers).In fact the son-in-law of the local king himself called & sided with this particular invader.

Please read Al-Biruni.written around 1000AD it is the most authoritative account to date.Also travels of Ibn-Batuta,Tunisian--1200AD maybe,very very informative.I have yet to come across such objective reporting even in this day & age of instant info.

Wassalaam.

PS:I have studied some hinduism myself simply to understand the other side.It may not be a bad idea if you read something on Islam.Martin Lings biography of our Prophet(sw)is a good read.

Harimau

Psst...if you ever *really * want people to start listening to what you say...take out the accusations...and rethink what is it that you`re really trying to say? That India is an all-inclusive secular state...as long as you claim to be related to Hinduism in some obscure manner...and as long as you don`t challenge the fact that Brahmins are this and not that? And those good-for-nothing scheduled castes are getting free seats in so many places...?? Try looking into the situation of Native Indians in US and more specifically Canada and compare the priviliges given to them here with the ``priviliges`` of Scheduled-Caste people in India. (ALSO compare the subjugation and treatment both received at the hands of stronger groups).

I will ask again, and if you get time from your busy life, please answer...I`m still waiting.

WHO ARE BRAHMINS? WHAT DOES IT MEAN TO BE A BRAHMIN IN THIS DAY AND AGE?

What does it mean to be a HINDU? (does it depend on taking revenge from the Muslims for all that they have done to us first and foremost?) CLARIFY exactly what would make a lowly (but BRAHMIN) HINDU APOLOGIST like me to rise to your nationalistically admiring ranks??

Please elaborate, this young apprentice has to decide between the dark side of the force and the good side...MAY The Force BE with you.

Brat

Temporal,
a very well written piece of (pardon the expression) ``temporary insanity`` here.

Ras

Aliya $ 46:

What a great read.
-----Thankyou!

Hope to see some more.
------Why? You gave no reasons or comments.

rgds

t


PS:

Aliya #47:

*grin * -- ditto--.
I maybe slow, but me thinks me got the message the first time. *zmm *

Temporal,

Very well written.

Islam is simplicity and simplicity is Islam.

Keep it up.

FarangiKush# 52

you say

Please read Al-Biruni.written around 1000AD it is the most authoritative account to date.Also travels of Ibn-Batuta,Tunisian--1200AD maybe,very very informative.I have yet to come across such objective reporting even in this day & age of instant info.

Since when has history written by invaders become objective :

1. Do you buy the british history when they say that 1857 freedom struggle was mutiny

2. Or that tibet was invaded by china to improve the tibetan life

3. or that hitler was model of compassion when he invaded austria

4. or that the british colonized the entire world to civilize them and it was a white man`s burden to civilize and the british empire was act of british compassion

5. or that america killed 3 million vietnamese for sake of democracy

6. or pakistan killed 3 million bangladeshis for entirely humanitarian reasons.

the invaders as rule are powerful. they need to wash down their guilt. and as they are powerful they can push down their versions of history down the unwilling throats of the invaded population.

the invaded population loses its identity.

very obviously you have lost , besides the foreskin of you penis, entire notions of what your identity is and hence you are intent on ratifying the garbage of invaders as the Truth.

A CIRCUMCISED NATION ... that is PAKISTAN... nay a CASTRATED NATION ...THAT is PAKISTAN...or should i say JINNAHABAD

Temporal :

I do not understand. How does the hatred and bigotry of one set of people invalidate your beliefs, your character, your soul ? You may lack the influence that the fatwa-issuers have, but that is not a crime or a sin. All that you can do, that you are expected to do, is to stand up for what you believe in. The outcome is whatever it is, that is where faith, optimism and patience come into the picture.

-arun gupta

Moez #48:

Moez: “I`m in favor of these vested scholars learn it hard way.......”

-------Perhaps your optimism is misplaced. If they have not learned the lessons in the past
seven or eight centuries what makes you think they ever will?

Let us go back to the roots and examine the five basic tenets of Islam.

1: Kalema or Shahadat.
2: Salat or Namaz.
3: Saum or Rozah.
4: Haj or Pilgrimage.
5: Zakat.

Let us examine their deeper meanings, implications and continuous impact upon the Muslim’s life for the moment.

SHAHADAT
Unless one is a new Muslim, this Kalemah is taken for granted and chanted and shunted in the deep recesses of the individual and collective sub conscious

SALAT & HAJ
Instead of a gradually expanding focal point for the local and worldwide Muslims --- local street mosque, local area mosque, and outside city gatherings twice a year, and an out of country gathering once in a lifetime-----(daily, Friday, Eids and Haj prayers)---- they have turned into rituals. Rituals without any impact on the self or the community at large.

SAUM
Instead of time for inner and outward introspection where the focus should be on the self and its relationship with others in the city, country, Ummah and Allah it has become a dietary ritual.

ZAKAT
This is an obligatory 2 1/2 % yearly tax on assets to be distributed to the poor relatives, the State and or other deserving causes.
I will take Pakistan as an example. Zia introduced at source deduction of Zakat. People expolited a loophole and by the thousands if not millions submitted certificates to their banks stating they were Shias, and thus exempt from this tax.

This outlook has to change. This change has to come from within and without. A collective change in which unfortunately one cannot minimize or ignore the role of the Ulemas.

regards

temporal

mannyd # 49:


That is an interesting thought. What with so many things happening on October 12 this cannot be discounted. But why Jinnahabad? Why not Pakistan?

rgds

rehanhasanansari #51

here is another Iqbal for you:
The last couplet in the same poem.

hawa hay go toond-o-taiz laikin chiraagh apna jala raha hay
woh mard-e-darwaish jis ko haqq nay diyay haiN andaaz-e-khusrawana

rgds

t

satyavadi #43:

You said, “ Also, can`t understand why ``Abdullah was born at Surat, India to a family of the former Nawabs of Surat`` . Abdullah could also have been born to some Ashraf Rangwala, a State Bank of India employee and Zubeida Rangwala, 8th grade bilogy teacher at ``St. Some One`` high school in the same Surat. Why the Nawab family ? Elitism..............I dare not say that :)”

-----I was only alluding to another ‘playboy-prince’ in early Islamic period who did a mid-course 180 degree turn. Perhaps it was too obtuse.

And you add “We can only pray that no moron ever does what that Israeli does in this article, because I am sure that something like that would trigger the worst tragedy in the history of humankind. Trust the faith of Muslims for that.”

-----Couldn’t agree more.

regards

t

Om:#56

Because these were NOT written by invaders or their sycophants.These writers themselves were subjected to the scorn & non-patronage of the invaders.

Please read THEN call.Thank you very much.

wassalaam

PS:Rest of your `speech` is meaningless.You are really supporting my viewpoint.Were any of these religious wars? Were not the looters and plunderers kings,presidents,prime-ministers (ALL Secularists!!! none avowed & promoters of religion.Where & when was the war for a higher purpose other than to grab territory,trade & subjugate?The closest we know is were the christain crusades & even there the role of the enemy is highly praised & respected by Sultan Salah-uddin Ayyubis.Acknowledged & duly recorded by the `enemy` as such.Please Read!

The Conquerers of land & people got conquered by the creed(the Mongols!!).They still are fierce adherents to that creed.Try to find another example & then call me.

The most insane article I have ever had the misfortune to waste my time on!

Om:# 56

The authorities I have quoted were not historians.They were scientists,anthropologists,& chroniclers of the times.They wrote in an atmosphere of scorn & vilification by the kings & invaders.Their impartiality is recognised by everyone.Even by their severest critics.

Please read! The very first revelation to the prophet(sw) was ``Read! in the name of thy Lord,the Sustainer.........etc etc.

The best source for you would be ``A North American young Muslims guide to Islam`` by Hussein Nasser.Caution & warning:You might convert!

And that is not my intent.

wassallaam.



CHOWKWAALO:I do not know why some of my posts do not get through.If it is a problem with other posties too then may be they should let you & us know as well.The system,otherwise,works so well that I never save the draft.Also,the freshness of the reply suffers.

I am pretty sure it is not some muhtisab(auditor).

wassalaam.

regarding temporal #39:

Dear t:

Iran deserves serious watching because it may be harbinger of things to come in the Islamic world. It would be interesting to see if the rest of the Islamic world takes a dreadful detour into mullah rule before coming into its senses or it will move onto ``controlled democracy`` as Iran is experimenting with right now.

It may be over-stretching to base ones predictions based on the Iranian experience alone because just like Egypt it had a rich cultural heritage and identity to draw upon before the imposition of a largely bedouin and Arab religion. Being the largest Shia country also is a distinguishing mark. As an interesting aside, I remember my father telling me that the most noteworthy thing he saw while in Teheran in the mid 70`s was the row upon row of Persian translations of works of Proust, Balzac and Tolstoy being sold on the street corners and apparently doing very well!!

Unlike some of my other countrymen(and women), I don`t buy the argument about Pakistanis rejecting the Islamist parties because it doesn`t jive with their worldview. I think there is an overwhelming probability of mullahs eventually taking over the country. Whether they`ll do it by subterfuge(some bearded general) or through popular credentials remains to be seen. The economic woes Pakistan is going through has allowed otherwise sane and secular-minded people to flip.

I recently went back home and I think the society is probably more closed and polarized than in even Zia`s more repressive times. The dish antennas and the unfettered movement of women without hijab in the larger cities lulls one into a sense of false security but underneath it all is a very strong current of disenchantment with the system and the injustices it has meted out to the majority of the people. The rest of the Islamic world with minor variations has the same problem. And God forbid if they decide to use religion as an antidote, what you outline in your article may look like a walk in Central Park in comparison.

regards

t,

Your article is a perplexing maze, full of symbolism. Simply brilliant.

The text is very real, indeed sage like as was 1984 of George Orwell. Orwell had predicted there eventually would be only three countries in the world .. Oceania, Eastasia, and was the third Europa ? I can`t recall.

To quote the essence ` a miserable world where the ``government`` is constantly at war with its people in which it manipulates the truth so freely that even those that do manipulate it for it cannot remember the original truth.`

I found some aspects striking in your article but I know you will run me around in circles if I seek clarification ;-)

1)Abdullah, Uri and Omar Bin Tahrir were all born on the same day i.e. 12 October 1999. On this date the six billionth baby was born, the new Indonesian President took oath, and the military took over Pakistan yet again. Which one of these events prompted your choice of date ? Or was it all three ? Was Andrea born on that date too ? Why did Abdullah abandon her to catch the next flight home ?

2)The concept of Ka`aba moving to other places was perhaps initiated by Hazrat Mansoor Hussain Bin Al-Hallaj who had (as the legend goes) erected the same in his neighborhood.

3) Jinnahabad sounds like Jinnahpur of MQM. How come Multan is included in Jinnahpur aka Jinnahabad ? Pls explain. Did you mean to say that Pakistan will not exist in it`s present form and just picked a suitable name for the new entity. Your reason perhaps is that Punjab will carry Jinnah`s name for itself. However I would prefer to call the new entity Mahinwal rather than Jinnahabad. No Purs and Abad`s for this land. We need to go back to our roots for our true nomenclature and not adopted ones.

In any case, a most noble attempt, temporal, in the correct direction. I only have one reservation. Your article seems to have stoked the fires in some of our Indian bretheren (Om)as our acceptance that Islam is wrong and the `Bombing` would have been justified though catastrophic. My total respect to Om for his views but I do not deem Islam to be so. Perhaps temporal you should not have written this in this time of great civilizational tension.

I reproduce a poem posted earlier by Farangi_Kush, without his permission. I am sure he will forgive me.

``RAAT BHUR JAAGTAY RAHTAY HAIN DUKANOWN KAY CHIRAGH.

DIL VOH SUNSAAN JAZEERAH KAY BUJHAA REHTA HAI

LEKIN ISS BUUND JAZEERAY KAY KISI GOASHAY MEIN

ZAAT KA BAAB_E_TILISMAAT KHULAA REHTAA HAI

UPNI HEE ZAAT MEIN PUUSTI KAY KHANDAR MILTAY HAIN

UPNI HEE ZAAT MEIN IK KOH_I_NIDA REHTA HAI

SIRF IS KOH KAY DAAMAN MEIN MAYYASAR HAI NIJAAT

AADMI VARNA ANAASIR MEIN GHIRA REHTA HAI

AUR JUB INSAY BHEE GHABRA KAY UTHATA HAI NAZAR

UPNAY ALLAH KI AUR UPNAY KHUDA KI JAANIB

AHHEEHU_NAAS CHALO KOHI_NIDA KI JAANIB.

God Speed to you t.

Rgds.