Temporal March 5, 2000
#65 Posted by Zehra on March 8, 2000 5:48:46 pm
t, i posted a response when i first read this two days back..it must be lost in cyberspace..
this was lovely. simple, creative and fun to read. little gems strewn throughout it :)
i responded to your comment on saima`s piece too...that didn`t show up either..but..i was thinking the same thing about the same line ( wry grins at the lines i write to see the different responses it would get)..you just got to it first.. :)
take care,
rizvi
this was lovely. simple, creative and fun to read. little gems strewn throughout it :)
i responded to your comment on saima`s piece too...that didn`t show up either..but..i was thinking the same thing about the same line ( wry grins at the lines i write to see the different responses it would get)..you just got to it first.. :)
take care,
rizvi
#66 Posted by zeemax on March 8, 2000 5:48:46 pm
Reply #: 58 temporal
t,
My brother just keep your faith. The five tenets of Islam have been ridiculed. If Zakat was used as an indirect tax forcing people to evade it, that does not mean the whole concept was wrong. I say remove all taxes and just let Zakat remain, and everyone will pay it, and there will be more revenue than the paltry Rs 370 billion target now. Zakat is for the welfare of the people and it is the only tax in an Islamic system .. 2.5 %, that`s all. Taxes in Pakistan now are about 40 % direct taxes and about 30 % indirect ( GST, Excise duty, surcharges ). How can people pay that ? Zakat on top of that ? They will simply not pay it.
I will not comment on the other tenets for fear of sounding like a mullah .. but they are all for a specific purpose. All of them.
Rgds.
t,
My brother just keep your faith. The five tenets of Islam have been ridiculed. If Zakat was used as an indirect tax forcing people to evade it, that does not mean the whole concept was wrong. I say remove all taxes and just let Zakat remain, and everyone will pay it, and there will be more revenue than the paltry Rs 370 billion target now. Zakat is for the welfare of the people and it is the only tax in an Islamic system .. 2.5 %, that`s all. Taxes in Pakistan now are about 40 % direct taxes and about 30 % indirect ( GST, Excise duty, surcharges ). How can people pay that ? Zakat on top of that ? They will simply not pay it.
I will not comment on the other tenets for fear of sounding like a mullah .. but they are all for a specific purpose. All of them.
Rgds.
#67 Posted by zeemax on March 8, 2000 5:48:46 pm
[Please disregard the previous post as there is a very important correction in serial no.(1)
t,
Your article is a perplexing maze, full of symbolism. Simply brilliant.
The text is very real, indeed sage like as was 1984 of George Orwell. Orwell had predicted there eventually would be only three countries in the world .. Oceania, Eastasia, and was the third Europa ? I can`t recall.
To quote the essence ` a miserable world where the ``government`` is constantly at war with its people in which it manipulates the truth so freely that even those that do manipulate it for it cannot remember the original truth.`
I found some aspects striking in your article but I know you will run me around in circles if I seek clarification ;-)
1)Abdullah, Uri and Omar Bin Tahrir were all born on the same day i.e. 12 October 1999. On this date the six billionth baby was born, the new Indonesian President took oath, and the military took over Pakistan yet again. Which one of these events prompted your choice of date ? Or was it all three ? Was Andrea born on that date too ? Why did Abdullah abandon her to catch the next flight home ? Were Abdullah and Uri, Omar Bin Tahrir actually twin brothers ?
2)The concept of Ka`aba moving to other places was perhaps initiated by Hazrat Mansoor Hussain Bin Al-Hallaj who had (as the legend goes) erected the same in his neighborhood.
3) Jinnahabad sounds like Jinnahpur of MQM. How come Multan is included in Jinnahpur aka Jinnahabad ? Pls explain. Did you mean to say that Pakistan will not exist in it`s present form and just picked a suitable name for the new entity. Your reason perhaps is that Punjab will carry Jinnah`s name for itself. However I would prefer to call the new entity Mahinwal rather than Jinnahabad. No Purs and Abad`s for this land. We need to go back to our roots for our true nomenclature and not adopted ones.
In any case, a most noble attempt, temporal, in the correct direction. I only have one reservation. Your article seems to have stoked the fires in some of our Indian bretheren (Om)as our acceptance that Islam is wrong and the `Bombing` would have been justified though catastrophic. My total respect to Om for his views but I do not deem Islam to be so. Perhaps temporal you should not have written this in this time of great civilizational tension.
I reproduce a poem posted earlier by Farangi_Kush, without his permission. I am sure he will forgive me.
``RAAT BHUR JAAGTAY RAHTAY HAIN DUKANOWN KAY CHIRAGH.
DIL VOH SUNSAAN JAZEERAH KAY BUJHAA REHTA HAI
LEKIN ISS BUUND JAZEERAY KAY KISI GOASHAY MEIN
ZAAT KA BAAB_E_TILISMAAT KHULAA REHTAA HAI
UPNI HEE ZAAT MEIN PUUSTI KAY KHANDAR MILTAY HAIN
UPNI HEE ZAAT MEIN IK KOH_I_NIDA REHTA HAI
SIRF IS KOH KAY DAAMAN MEIN MAYYASAR HAI NIJAAT
AADMI VARNA ANAASIR MEIN GHIRA REHTA HAI
AUR JUB INSAY BHEE GHABRA KAY UTHATA HAI NAZAR
UPNAY ALLAH KI AUR UPNAY KHUDA KI JAANIB
AHHEEHU_NAAS CHALO KOHI_NIDA KI JAANIB.
God Speed to you t.
Rgds.
t,
Your article is a perplexing maze, full of symbolism. Simply brilliant.
The text is very real, indeed sage like as was 1984 of George Orwell. Orwell had predicted there eventually would be only three countries in the world .. Oceania, Eastasia, and was the third Europa ? I can`t recall.
To quote the essence ` a miserable world where the ``government`` is constantly at war with its people in which it manipulates the truth so freely that even those that do manipulate it for it cannot remember the original truth.`
I found some aspects striking in your article but I know you will run me around in circles if I seek clarification ;-)
1)Abdullah, Uri and Omar Bin Tahrir were all born on the same day i.e. 12 October 1999. On this date the six billionth baby was born, the new Indonesian President took oath, and the military took over Pakistan yet again. Which one of these events prompted your choice of date ? Or was it all three ? Was Andrea born on that date too ? Why did Abdullah abandon her to catch the next flight home ? Were Abdullah and Uri, Omar Bin Tahrir actually twin brothers ?
2)The concept of Ka`aba moving to other places was perhaps initiated by Hazrat Mansoor Hussain Bin Al-Hallaj who had (as the legend goes) erected the same in his neighborhood.
3) Jinnahabad sounds like Jinnahpur of MQM. How come Multan is included in Jinnahpur aka Jinnahabad ? Pls explain. Did you mean to say that Pakistan will not exist in it`s present form and just picked a suitable name for the new entity. Your reason perhaps is that Punjab will carry Jinnah`s name for itself. However I would prefer to call the new entity Mahinwal rather than Jinnahabad. No Purs and Abad`s for this land. We need to go back to our roots for our true nomenclature and not adopted ones.
In any case, a most noble attempt, temporal, in the correct direction. I only have one reservation. Your article seems to have stoked the fires in some of our Indian bretheren (Om)as our acceptance that Islam is wrong and the `Bombing` would have been justified though catastrophic. My total respect to Om for his views but I do not deem Islam to be so. Perhaps temporal you should not have written this in this time of great civilizational tension.
I reproduce a poem posted earlier by Farangi_Kush, without his permission. I am sure he will forgive me.
``RAAT BHUR JAAGTAY RAHTAY HAIN DUKANOWN KAY CHIRAGH.
DIL VOH SUNSAAN JAZEERAH KAY BUJHAA REHTA HAI
LEKIN ISS BUUND JAZEERAY KAY KISI GOASHAY MEIN
ZAAT KA BAAB_E_TILISMAAT KHULAA REHTAA HAI
UPNI HEE ZAAT MEIN PUUSTI KAY KHANDAR MILTAY HAIN
UPNI HEE ZAAT MEIN IK KOH_I_NIDA REHTA HAI
SIRF IS KOH KAY DAAMAN MEIN MAYYASAR HAI NIJAAT
AADMI VARNA ANAASIR MEIN GHIRA REHTA HAI
AUR JUB INSAY BHEE GHABRA KAY UTHATA HAI NAZAR
UPNAY ALLAH KI AUR UPNAY KHUDA KI JAANIB
AHHEEHU_NAAS CHALO KOHI_NIDA KI JAANIB.
God Speed to you t.
Rgds.
#68 Posted by SameerJB on March 8, 2000 9:39:30 pm
Let us assume an enemy XYZ (may be the West, US, Israel or even India) is out there to get Pakistan. What are the strategies XYZ can imply to weaken Pakistan militarily and economically?
1) To weaken Pakistan militarily will require an embargo on the sale of new weapons and the spare parts for the old weapons. XYZ may also bomb strategic targets (and not Ka’aba). A militarily weakened Pakistan will be so destabilizing to the whole area and the world that no serious enemy will even consider it. Moreover, the best way to show animosity lately has been to destroy the economy.
2) In order to weaken Pakistan economically, XYZ can select a combination of steps including forcing an increase in military spending and trade embargoes.
The strategies mentioned above require open hostility on the part of XYZ. There is no credible reason for XYZ to embark upon such hostilities. Under current circumstances, it is best for XYZ to utilize internal forces to implode the society. One such force at hand for XYZ is Islamic system and the process of Islamization. According to XYZ’s assessment, a high-entropy orthodoxical Islamic approach is the most suitable direction to bring down Pakistan. The Islamic system as XYZ perceives, is based on few successful examples of more than 1000 years old and applicable only to small tribal societies. In modern times and over much larger societies, it will have devastating effects, including exclusion from the world monetary system, over population, elimination of half the population i.e., women folks, from any meaningful contribution to economic well being, lowering of education standards due to madrassahs as well as spending several hours everyday in non-learning activities of going, praying and coming back from the mosque five times a day as compared to those who might spent all this time studying and learning and parents spending time in the mosques instead of spending it with their children; praying to God for marrying off their daughters instead of trying to find grooms. It will also lead to isolation, destabilization, disorderness and sectarian violence. XYZ does not have to take any adverse action, they just have to tacitly approve and expedite the process of Islamization.
A supporter of Islamic system thinks otherwise. A mullah, based on his rudimentary education in a madrassah thinks Islamic system as a panacea for all ills, including economic problems. It is based upon his belief rather than the knowledge of politics, international relations, economics and sociology. It is also a power play for the priestly class. Exploitation has been the name of the game since the time immemorial. The organized religions have provided the priestly class power over fellow human beings in the areas of ethics, morality, spirituality and imagination. They would like to continue holding on to power in the same way a politician, monarch, colonialist or a capitalist would like.
Although it appear that supporters of Islamic system like, JI, JUI, JUP, SSP, HUM, TJ, LT, Taliban and host of other parties are anti-XYZ but both groups aspire different results from similar path. It is up to the thinking, educated and truly patriotic people to decide whose projections are realistic; those of sociologists, economists, philosophers and specialists with the help of past and present data with computer simulations or dreamers with madrassah education or followers of dreamers with madrassah education.
In my personal opinion, there is no XYZ out there. It is with in us. Only those people can support such a path who, willingly or inadvertently, want to harm Pakistan. The only way to a successful Pakistan is through secular, liberal, nationalistic, progressive, rational, intelligent and honest approach to the current situation.
1) To weaken Pakistan militarily will require an embargo on the sale of new weapons and the spare parts for the old weapons. XYZ may also bomb strategic targets (and not Ka’aba). A militarily weakened Pakistan will be so destabilizing to the whole area and the world that no serious enemy will even consider it. Moreover, the best way to show animosity lately has been to destroy the economy.
2) In order to weaken Pakistan economically, XYZ can select a combination of steps including forcing an increase in military spending and trade embargoes.
The strategies mentioned above require open hostility on the part of XYZ. There is no credible reason for XYZ to embark upon such hostilities. Under current circumstances, it is best for XYZ to utilize internal forces to implode the society. One such force at hand for XYZ is Islamic system and the process of Islamization. According to XYZ’s assessment, a high-entropy orthodoxical Islamic approach is the most suitable direction to bring down Pakistan. The Islamic system as XYZ perceives, is based on few successful examples of more than 1000 years old and applicable only to small tribal societies. In modern times and over much larger societies, it will have devastating effects, including exclusion from the world monetary system, over population, elimination of half the population i.e., women folks, from any meaningful contribution to economic well being, lowering of education standards due to madrassahs as well as spending several hours everyday in non-learning activities of going, praying and coming back from the mosque five times a day as compared to those who might spent all this time studying and learning and parents spending time in the mosques instead of spending it with their children; praying to God for marrying off their daughters instead of trying to find grooms. It will also lead to isolation, destabilization, disorderness and sectarian violence. XYZ does not have to take any adverse action, they just have to tacitly approve and expedite the process of Islamization.
A supporter of Islamic system thinks otherwise. A mullah, based on his rudimentary education in a madrassah thinks Islamic system as a panacea for all ills, including economic problems. It is based upon his belief rather than the knowledge of politics, international relations, economics and sociology. It is also a power play for the priestly class. Exploitation has been the name of the game since the time immemorial. The organized religions have provided the priestly class power over fellow human beings in the areas of ethics, morality, spirituality and imagination. They would like to continue holding on to power in the same way a politician, monarch, colonialist or a capitalist would like.
Although it appear that supporters of Islamic system like, JI, JUI, JUP, SSP, HUM, TJ, LT, Taliban and host of other parties are anti-XYZ but both groups aspire different results from similar path. It is up to the thinking, educated and truly patriotic people to decide whose projections are realistic; those of sociologists, economists, philosophers and specialists with the help of past and present data with computer simulations or dreamers with madrassah education or followers of dreamers with madrassah education.
In my personal opinion, there is no XYZ out there. It is with in us. Only those people can support such a path who, willingly or inadvertently, want to harm Pakistan. The only way to a successful Pakistan is through secular, liberal, nationalistic, progressive, rational, intelligent and honest approach to the current situation.
#70 Posted by the_happy_one on March 8, 2000 9:39:30 pm
Re: OM #56 & #21
Sir,
You seem to be a proud Hindu who feels privilaged to belong to a religion that does not trample over other people`s faith. You also seem to be quite agitated at the fact that Islamic conquerors pludered your `land` and trampled over your `faith`.
So in response you propose to nuke the holy shrines of Islam? And that would be in keeping with the fine traditions of your faith??
I thought I will ignore your drivel like most people have but enough is enough yaar!
And by the way `Hindu Cowards` have not `allowed` to let 140 million muslims to `thrive & multiply` in India. Number one, Indian Muslims dont need anybody`s permission to live in India. And Number two, sadly they are not exactly `thriving` either.
When I first interacted with Pakistanis, to my great surprise I found that the stereotypical Indian for a Pakistani was a rabid safron clad rightwinger. And I was told that this impression was based primarilty on web based interaction. Now I know... its probably due to numbnuts like you!
Sir,
You seem to be a proud Hindu who feels privilaged to belong to a religion that does not trample over other people`s faith. You also seem to be quite agitated at the fact that Islamic conquerors pludered your `land` and trampled over your `faith`.
So in response you propose to nuke the holy shrines of Islam? And that would be in keeping with the fine traditions of your faith??
I thought I will ignore your drivel like most people have but enough is enough yaar!
And by the way `Hindu Cowards` have not `allowed` to let 140 million muslims to `thrive & multiply` in India. Number one, Indian Muslims dont need anybody`s permission to live in India. And Number two, sadly they are not exactly `thriving` either.
When I first interacted with Pakistanis, to my great surprise I found that the stereotypical Indian for a Pakistani was a rabid safron clad rightwinger. And I was told that this impression was based primarilty on web based interaction. Now I know... its probably due to numbnuts like you!
#71 Posted by temporal on March 8, 2000 10:53:15 pm
sac #64:
Interesting thoughts on Iran’s experiment with ‘controlled democracy’. Reading between the lines on Bilal’s article, I am guessing that he is pretty close to concluding in favour of controlled democracy. But that wasn’t the thrust of this story.
You also say, “The dish antennas and the unfettered movement of women without hijab in the larger cities lulls one into a sense of false security but underneath it all is a very strong current of disenchantment with the system and the injustices it has meted out to the majority of the people. The rest of the Islamic world with minor variations has the same problem. And God forbid if they decide to use religion as an antidote, what you outline in your article may look like a walk in Central Park in comparison.”
When one ponders an average bread earners salary in Pakistan, and start budgeting it for his/her family of five, no matter how creative one becomes the deficit stares in the face. To make for the shortfall, they have to cut corners. They have to sell --- sell off family heirlooms, furniture, valuables, till in desperation they will learn to sell off daughters, wives, drugs, in short their ‘eemaan’ to survive. Can they, and vicariously us are in any position to claim anything from our Islamic heritage? Yes it is a matter of time before the house of card crumbles. No amount of electrifying Azaans will lure Allah to intervene. The tank is half full; but really it is half empty.
Even if Musharraf and his Corp Commanders are sincere, there is an overwhelming probability that they will fail, because the bureaucracy will hinder any moves to straighten out the mess. Hope I am wrong.
Sadly,
temporal
Interesting thoughts on Iran’s experiment with ‘controlled democracy’. Reading between the lines on Bilal’s article, I am guessing that he is pretty close to concluding in favour of controlled democracy. But that wasn’t the thrust of this story.
You also say, “The dish antennas and the unfettered movement of women without hijab in the larger cities lulls one into a sense of false security but underneath it all is a very strong current of disenchantment with the system and the injustices it has meted out to the majority of the people. The rest of the Islamic world with minor variations has the same problem. And God forbid if they decide to use religion as an antidote, what you outline in your article may look like a walk in Central Park in comparison.”
When one ponders an average bread earners salary in Pakistan, and start budgeting it for his/her family of five, no matter how creative one becomes the deficit stares in the face. To make for the shortfall, they have to cut corners. They have to sell --- sell off family heirlooms, furniture, valuables, till in desperation they will learn to sell off daughters, wives, drugs, in short their ‘eemaan’ to survive. Can they, and vicariously us are in any position to claim anything from our Islamic heritage? Yes it is a matter of time before the house of card crumbles. No amount of electrifying Azaans will lure Allah to intervene. The tank is half full; but really it is half empty.
Even if Musharraf and his Corp Commanders are sincere, there is an overwhelming probability that they will fail, because the bureaucracy will hinder any moves to straighten out the mess. Hope I am wrong.
Sadly,
temporal
#72 Posted by temporal on March 8, 2000 10:54:48 pm
Zehra #66:
Glad you enjoyed ‘bikhray moti’. Can I expect a detailed critique later?
Was looking forward to response on Saima’s as well. Oh well….. damn the genii!
Lve
t
Glad you enjoyed ‘bikhray moti’. Can I expect a detailed critique later?
Was looking forward to response on Saima’s as well. Oh well….. damn the genii!
Lve
t
#73 Posted by temporal on March 8, 2000 11:01:43 pm
Zeemax #68 & #67:
Thank you Zeemax.
(Your article is a perplexing maze, full of symbolism. Simply brilliant.)
Why would I run you in circles? I am not like that, ask SR. Will attempt to answer your queries in the same order.
1) We arrived in St. Lucia on Oct 11, 1999 to celebrate a special occasion. This was a period between the two powerful hurricanes that lashed the Eastern Carribean last year. We had a late night. Next morning we got up rather late and tumbling off the bed, still in some daze I turned on the television. The previous occupant had left the channel set on BBC World News. There was a breaking news from Pakistan--- you guessed it.
It was too humid, and am no beach bum. (Went out to Paradise Point, past Hawkes Bay once when I was in college, and acquired enough tan to last this lifetime!) So we snuck back into the cool comfort of the suite. And watched lots of BBC and CN and Newsworld that Oct 12.
Guess the irony of so much happening world wide that day must have left an impression in the deeper recesses of the sub conscious.
* * * *Was Andrea born on that date too ? ------Don’t know. Will ask when I meet her next!
* * * *Why did Abdullah abandon her to catch the next flight home ?-----Allah works in mysterious ways. This was the turning point in his life. Have alluded before about this early Islam playboy-prince who made an 180 degree turn and became a pious and successful leader.
* * * * Were Abdullah and Uri, Omar Bin Tahrir actually twin brothers ? ----You mean triplets? No, how can they be? They each had different destinies to fulfil.
2)”The concept of Ka`aba moving to other places was perhaps initiated by Hazrat Mansoor Hussain Bin Al-Hallaj who had (as the legend goes) erected the same in his neighborhood.”
----I was waiting for SR -- Sohail Rabbani to pick up on this, but perhaps he hasn’t returned from the holy lands.
In addition to Ka’aba standing for what it is- a house of worship, House of Allah, so central to a Muslim’s belief , I was trying to introduce another element. Maybe my choice of words did not elicit the response I had in mind.
As the story goes, Abraham ostensibly rid Ka’aba of 360+ idols – one for every day of the year. And here we are in 1420AH almost succeeding in turning it into one final idol!
Where is the spirit of Haj?
2) * * * *“Jinnahabad sounds like Jinnahpur of MQM. How come Multan is included in Jinnahpur aka Jinnahabad ? Pls explain. Did you mean to say that Pakistan will not exist in it`s present form and just picked a suitable name for the new entity.
------Chaudhry Rehmat Ali’s dream and coinage had no “I”. PAKSTAN – that’s how he spelled it,
It is ironical that the “I” has destroyed Pakistan as he and Iqbal had dreamt of. (Do you know that he was alive after partition and he returned to Pakistan in 1948, and our state agencies hounded and deported him out of Pakistan? And he died an unsung hero and a pauper in England? And his college colleague paid for his funeral out of his pocket? (Ahsan out of Cambridge has a site dedicated to him: if interested I will post the address later).
While I am at this, have you considered who was the idiot that approved of the waning moon as a symbol on our flag? The rising Crescent is tilted from the right to the left, And the waning one is as shown presently on our flag. I have a set of stamps that were issued in the denominations of 1 anna, 1 ½ anna and 2 anna that depicted the rising crescent. They were recalled and reissued with waning moon.
Today’s Pakistan is not Jinnah’s ideal. Hence my liberty of Jinnahabad.
Hope I have answered all your queries.
regards
temporal
Thank you Zeemax.
(Your article is a perplexing maze, full of symbolism. Simply brilliant.)
Why would I run you in circles? I am not like that, ask SR. Will attempt to answer your queries in the same order.
1) We arrived in St. Lucia on Oct 11, 1999 to celebrate a special occasion. This was a period between the two powerful hurricanes that lashed the Eastern Carribean last year. We had a late night. Next morning we got up rather late and tumbling off the bed, still in some daze I turned on the television. The previous occupant had left the channel set on BBC World News. There was a breaking news from Pakistan--- you guessed it.
It was too humid, and am no beach bum. (Went out to Paradise Point, past Hawkes Bay once when I was in college, and acquired enough tan to last this lifetime!) So we snuck back into the cool comfort of the suite. And watched lots of BBC and CN and Newsworld that Oct 12.
Guess the irony of so much happening world wide that day must have left an impression in the deeper recesses of the sub conscious.
* * * *Was Andrea born on that date too ? ------Don’t know. Will ask when I meet her next!
* * * *Why did Abdullah abandon her to catch the next flight home ?-----Allah works in mysterious ways. This was the turning point in his life. Have alluded before about this early Islam playboy-prince who made an 180 degree turn and became a pious and successful leader.
* * * * Were Abdullah and Uri, Omar Bin Tahrir actually twin brothers ? ----You mean triplets? No, how can they be? They each had different destinies to fulfil.
2)”The concept of Ka`aba moving to other places was perhaps initiated by Hazrat Mansoor Hussain Bin Al-Hallaj who had (as the legend goes) erected the same in his neighborhood.”
----I was waiting for SR -- Sohail Rabbani to pick up on this, but perhaps he hasn’t returned from the holy lands.
In addition to Ka’aba standing for what it is- a house of worship, House of Allah, so central to a Muslim’s belief , I was trying to introduce another element. Maybe my choice of words did not elicit the response I had in mind.
As the story goes, Abraham ostensibly rid Ka’aba of 360+ idols – one for every day of the year. And here we are in 1420AH almost succeeding in turning it into one final idol!
Where is the spirit of Haj?
2) * * * *“Jinnahabad sounds like Jinnahpur of MQM. How come Multan is included in Jinnahpur aka Jinnahabad ? Pls explain. Did you mean to say that Pakistan will not exist in it`s present form and just picked a suitable name for the new entity.
------Chaudhry Rehmat Ali’s dream and coinage had no “I”. PAKSTAN – that’s how he spelled it,
It is ironical that the “I” has destroyed Pakistan as he and Iqbal had dreamt of. (Do you know that he was alive after partition and he returned to Pakistan in 1948, and our state agencies hounded and deported him out of Pakistan? And he died an unsung hero and a pauper in England? And his college colleague paid for his funeral out of his pocket? (Ahsan out of Cambridge has a site dedicated to him: if interested I will post the address later).
While I am at this, have you considered who was the idiot that approved of the waning moon as a symbol on our flag? The rising Crescent is tilted from the right to the left, And the waning one is as shown presently on our flag. I have a set of stamps that were issued in the denominations of 1 anna, 1 ½ anna and 2 anna that depicted the rising crescent. They were recalled and reissued with waning moon.
Today’s Pakistan is not Jinnah’s ideal. Hence my liberty of Jinnahabad.
Hope I have answered all your queries.
regards
temporal
#74 Posted by temporal on March 8, 2000 11:06:50 pm
Nushmia_Zia_Khokhar #70:
Thank you. Glad you could see the amusing side.
You say, “.....maybe the nukes will replace the kankar of the ababeel if the need arose!!!!”
Did you know that Surahs 105 (Al Fayl – the Elephant) and 106 (the Quraish) were considered as one Surah and read as one without a Bismillah between them by Omar in congregation? And the stones of baked clay dropped by flying birds were allegorical references to the insect ridden germs that wiped out the invading Yemenite Army with a pox like disease? Also the later part of Quraish where Allah extends his protection to Quraish is cited by extension as His promise of a protection of the ‘temple’?
regards,
temporal
PS: I am struck by another irony from your quoting of Surah Al Fayl ---- if it was pox then could it be AIDS next? Just wondering.
Thank you. Glad you could see the amusing side.
You say, “.....maybe the nukes will replace the kankar of the ababeel if the need arose!!!!”
Did you know that Surahs 105 (Al Fayl – the Elephant) and 106 (the Quraish) were considered as one Surah and read as one without a Bismillah between them by Omar in congregation? And the stones of baked clay dropped by flying birds were allegorical references to the insect ridden germs that wiped out the invading Yemenite Army with a pox like disease? Also the later part of Quraish where Allah extends his protection to Quraish is cited by extension as His promise of a protection of the ‘temple’?
regards,
temporal
PS: I am struck by another irony from your quoting of Surah Al Fayl ---- if it was pox then could it be AIDS next? Just wondering.
#75 Posted by PM on March 9, 2000 2:18:42 am
tEMPORAL:
I`m sure you knew that the theme of your article
was bound to be lost on many readers, what with
the earth-shattering (no pun intended!) prologue.
As much as it jarred the emotions, though, I can
see what must’ve been one motive --among others,
I’m sure ;-) -- behind the shocking beginning…
that is, to incite and provoke the ‘hungama’ you
seem to like so much. (Maybe it just takes one to
know one ;-)
Thoroughly enjoyed the style-- to say nothing of
the content—imaginative, insightful (inciteful?)
and engaging as we’ve come to expect. Also, am
glad you made clear your hope that the
‘qiamatesque’ event never takes place. That could
truly be Armageddon.
(Although… hmmm… if we look at the only instance
of the destruction of a shrine of the proportion
of the Ka’ba, we see the resulting renaissance of
Judaism-- the Jewish Reformation, if you like.
Could that have been your ‘inspiration’? Pre-AD
70 Judaism was pretty much the ritual-and-dogma
affair that progressive Muslims would like to
rescue Islam from today. Maybe you do feel that
change necessitates a shock of that those
proportions? Would like to know your considered
response)
As for the Interact!, gosh, you must be drooling,
knowing how much you enjoy the kash-makash. To
answer Saima’s query on the wrong board, this is
what the Chowk is all about, eh!? Listening,
learning, growing…Your reply macgupta’s query I
found particularly interesting, as I find myself
with the same identity crises viz religion,
something we’ve already talked about on another
board. You haven’t replied to his follow up
question in #57. For what it’s worth, I’d like to
offer my take on it. temp, tell me how relevant
it is to your experiences…
Arun Gupta writes: ``I do not understand. How does
the hatred and bigotry of one set of people
invalidate your beliefs, your character, your soul
? You may lack the influence that the
fatwa-issuers have, but that is not a crime or a
sin. All that you can do, that you are expected to
do, is to stand up for what you believe in. The
outcome is whatever it is, that is where faith,
optimism and patience come into the picture.``
It /doesn’t/ invalidate one’s beliefs, character,
etc. Nor does it prevent one from ``standing up
for what one believes in``. The reluctance to a
accept a label might stem from what the label has
come to be associated with, or from a genuine
appreciation of nuances of the label and a respect
for that (widely accepted) definition. To cite my
own experience, since I follow the precepts of
Christ (strictly speaking-- that is, not Paul or
John etc.), I might call myself a Christian. But
his divinity is generally accepted by Christians
(ever since a little after his death) as a
necessary belief for Christians. Ergo, my
reluctance. But this in no way invalidates my
beliefs, character etc. Furthermore --and
importantly! -- there is the feeling that one
needs to transcend these divisive labels and see
oneself as, first and last, part of the family
called the Human Race. In that sense, maybe, the
‘question
I`m sure you knew that the theme of your article
was bound to be lost on many readers, what with
the earth-shattering (no pun intended!) prologue.
As much as it jarred the emotions, though, I can
see what must’ve been one motive --among others,
I’m sure ;-) -- behind the shocking beginning…
that is, to incite and provoke the ‘hungama’ you
seem to like so much. (Maybe it just takes one to
know one ;-)
Thoroughly enjoyed the style-- to say nothing of
the content—imaginative, insightful (inciteful?)
and engaging as we’ve come to expect. Also, am
glad you made clear your hope that the
‘qiamatesque’ event never takes place. That could
truly be Armageddon.
(Although… hmmm… if we look at the only instance
of the destruction of a shrine of the proportion
of the Ka’ba, we see the resulting renaissance of
Judaism-- the Jewish Reformation, if you like.
Could that have been your ‘inspiration’? Pre-AD
70 Judaism was pretty much the ritual-and-dogma
affair that progressive Muslims would like to
rescue Islam from today. Maybe you do feel that
change necessitates a shock of that those
proportions? Would like to know your considered
response)
As for the Interact!, gosh, you must be drooling,
knowing how much you enjoy the kash-makash. To
answer Saima’s query on the wrong board, this is
what the Chowk is all about, eh!? Listening,
learning, growing…Your reply macgupta’s query I
found particularly interesting, as I find myself
with the same identity crises viz religion,
something we’ve already talked about on another
board. You haven’t replied to his follow up
question in #57. For what it’s worth, I’d like to
offer my take on it. temp, tell me how relevant
it is to your experiences…
Arun Gupta writes: ``I do not understand. How does
the hatred and bigotry of one set of people
invalidate your beliefs, your character, your soul
? You may lack the influence that the
fatwa-issuers have, but that is not a crime or a
sin. All that you can do, that you are expected to
do, is to stand up for what you believe in. The
outcome is whatever it is, that is where faith,
optimism and patience come into the picture.``
It /doesn’t/ invalidate one’s beliefs, character,
etc. Nor does it prevent one from ``standing up
for what one believes in``. The reluctance to a
accept a label might stem from what the label has
come to be associated with, or from a genuine
appreciation of nuances of the label and a respect
for that (widely accepted) definition. To cite my
own experience, since I follow the precepts of
Christ (strictly speaking-- that is, not Paul or
John etc.), I might call myself a Christian. But
his divinity is generally accepted by Christians
(ever since a little after his death) as a
necessary belief for Christians. Ergo, my
reluctance. But this in no way invalidates my
beliefs, character etc. Furthermore --and
importantly! -- there is the feeling that one
needs to transcend these divisive labels and see
oneself as, first and last, part of the family
called the Human Race. In that sense, maybe, the
‘question
#76 Posted by PM on March 9, 2000 2:18:42 am
Farangi_Kush:
Relax now, I’m unarmed. See??
I’ve come to see a little (won’t lie!) sense in
your arguments, and am even indebted to you for
some eye-and-mind-openers (though I still don’t
care at all for your seemingly black-and-white
worldview. (Just had to set that out straight.
Ahem!)
You correctly point out that there is nothing in
Religion (Islam or Christianity) itself that
justifies the conquest and plunder by their
adherents through history. I think this is rather
convenient, though to be content with that
‘vindication’. For while the motives (implicit or
otherwise) of the conquerors might have been plain
old-fashioned greed, in almost all instances
religious superiority provided the ‘moral’
justification for the conquests. Be it the early
expansionism of the Muslims, the Conquistadors’
plunder of the New World, the British, Dutch or
French colonization of the ‘depraved infidels and
heathens’, the Nazi extermination of the Jews and
other ‘undesirables’, or the Commie invasions, a
common thread running through them all was a
certain self-righteousness born of Religion.
Throw in ibn-Qasim, Karzadic(sp?), and –hell, why
not? – Reagan (remember ‘evil empire’?) for good
measure. What do they all have in common??
Secularism? Hardly!
Oh, and by the way, including the Soviets wasn’t a
faux pas. From where I stand, they appear to have
followed their religion every bit as devoutly as
their theistic counterparts— a devotion
characterized by moral superiority, lack of
introspection, and an excess of conviction and
pride. Oh, did I mention intolerance of those
different? And massive insecurity?
Of course, your refrain is that religion is not to
blame for the sins of its abusers. I almost agree
with you. Almost. Yes, the spirit in which the
religion was born was usually benign and tolerant,
inspired by a sense of justice and fair-play (give
or take a few executions and homophobic and
misogynistic laws, of course). Yes, yes, I agree,
the pillars of Islam are a firm foundation for
justice and peace. Christ preached only love.
And Communism was born of a vision of equality
and brotherhood. All very fine and noble indeed.
But in the end, a tree is only to be judged by the
fruit it bears. And the truth is, the fruit of
religion has been more often than not rotten, far
from its ideals.
If you’re still going ``but.. but…``, you have to
ask yourself what an impartial observer, say a
Martian, was to deduce from an observation of
affairs. I would say there is a strong case for
correlation between organized religion and
violence. It’s all very well to say that Man has
forsaken his Religion, but one could more easily
deduce religion has failed Man.
My experience as a teacher has taught me that,
almost always, if my method isn’t producing
desired results, there’s something wrong in what I
am doing; not the children’s ability. I tend to
view religion and people in somewhat the same way.
I think religion is fine as a general guide to
right living. Born of the collective wisdom of
generations, and often inspired by truly mystical
experiences of the people we call prophets, it
save us the trouble of having to reinvent the
wheels of the car that lead us to enlightened
living, to spirituality. I think what ruins it,
destroys is potential, are ideas like
‘infallible’, ‘complete’, ‘exclusive’, ‘perfect’
etc. And dogma.
I think if we look at the historically more
‘open’, less dogmatic religious traditions, we see
that they have been, historically, characterized
by peace, tolerance, and – importantly –
non-expansionism. Take Hinduism (without
mistaking reactionary belligerence or post-modern
nationalism for it). Or take Buddhism—the
non-dogmatic Hinayana brand and its off shoots –
Zen and Taoism. Or take the gentle, suggestive,
Confucism: little or no dogma, little collective
violence, or expansionist tendencies.
I guess I got carried away on my pet topic, but
doesn’t this tie in with the underlying message of
temporals message. To (badly) paraphrase Khalil
Gibran, ``until the last minaret falls, until the
last steeple crumbles, will religion not truly win
the hearts of men.``
(I’d be indebted to
Relax now, I’m unarmed. See??
I’ve come to see a little (won’t lie!) sense in
your arguments, and am even indebted to you for
some eye-and-mind-openers (though I still don’t
care at all for your seemingly black-and-white
worldview. (Just had to set that out straight.
Ahem!)
You correctly point out that there is nothing in
Religion (Islam or Christianity) itself that
justifies the conquest and plunder by their
adherents through history. I think this is rather
convenient, though to be content with that
‘vindication’. For while the motives (implicit or
otherwise) of the conquerors might have been plain
old-fashioned greed, in almost all instances
religious superiority provided the ‘moral’
justification for the conquests. Be it the early
expansionism of the Muslims, the Conquistadors’
plunder of the New World, the British, Dutch or
French colonization of the ‘depraved infidels and
heathens’, the Nazi extermination of the Jews and
other ‘undesirables’, or the Commie invasions, a
common thread running through them all was a
certain self-righteousness born of Religion.
Throw in ibn-Qasim, Karzadic(sp?), and –hell, why
not? – Reagan (remember ‘evil empire’?) for good
measure. What do they all have in common??
Secularism? Hardly!
Oh, and by the way, including the Soviets wasn’t a
faux pas. From where I stand, they appear to have
followed their religion every bit as devoutly as
their theistic counterparts— a devotion
characterized by moral superiority, lack of
introspection, and an excess of conviction and
pride. Oh, did I mention intolerance of those
different? And massive insecurity?
Of course, your refrain is that religion is not to
blame for the sins of its abusers. I almost agree
with you. Almost. Yes, the spirit in which the
religion was born was usually benign and tolerant,
inspired by a sense of justice and fair-play (give
or take a few executions and homophobic and
misogynistic laws, of course). Yes, yes, I agree,
the pillars of Islam are a firm foundation for
justice and peace. Christ preached only love.
And Communism was born of a vision of equality
and brotherhood. All very fine and noble indeed.
But in the end, a tree is only to be judged by the
fruit it bears. And the truth is, the fruit of
religion has been more often than not rotten, far
from its ideals.
If you’re still going ``but.. but…``, you have to
ask yourself what an impartial observer, say a
Martian, was to deduce from an observation of
affairs. I would say there is a strong case for
correlation between organized religion and
violence. It’s all very well to say that Man has
forsaken his Religion, but one could more easily
deduce religion has failed Man.
My experience as a teacher has taught me that,
almost always, if my method isn’t producing
desired results, there’s something wrong in what I
am doing; not the children’s ability. I tend to
view religion and people in somewhat the same way.
I think religion is fine as a general guide to
right living. Born of the collective wisdom of
generations, and often inspired by truly mystical
experiences of the people we call prophets, it
save us the trouble of having to reinvent the
wheels of the car that lead us to enlightened
living, to spirituality. I think what ruins it,
destroys is potential, are ideas like
‘infallible’, ‘complete’, ‘exclusive’, ‘perfect’
etc. And dogma.
I think if we look at the historically more
‘open’, less dogmatic religious traditions, we see
that they have been, historically, characterized
by peace, tolerance, and – importantly –
non-expansionism. Take Hinduism (without
mistaking reactionary belligerence or post-modern
nationalism for it). Or take Buddhism—the
non-dogmatic Hinayana brand and its off shoots –
Zen and Taoism. Or take the gentle, suggestive,
Confucism: little or no dogma, little collective
violence, or expansionist tendencies.
I guess I got carried away on my pet topic, but
doesn’t this tie in with the underlying message of
temporals message. To (badly) paraphrase Khalil
Gibran, ``until the last minaret falls, until the
last steeple crumbles, will religion not truly win
the hearts of men.``
(I’d be indebted to
#77 Posted by temporal on March 9, 2000 11:05:19 am
SameerJB #72
Ideas in the long run are more potent, powerful and lasting.
Your efforts to wonder aloud how to weaken Pakistan militarily and economically are interesting in the sense that once you can identify the main thrusts you can make efforts to rectify it. But getting into the psyche and mind of the detractors is more than that. At this critical juncture in Pakistan’s short history she is confronted with seemingly insurmountable problems.
By no stretch of imagination can Pakistan be construed as the main thrust of this story.
regards
temporal
.
Ideas in the long run are more potent, powerful and lasting.
Your efforts to wonder aloud how to weaken Pakistan militarily and economically are interesting in the sense that once you can identify the main thrusts you can make efforts to rectify it. But getting into the psyche and mind of the detractors is more than that. At this critical juncture in Pakistan’s short history she is confronted with seemingly insurmountable problems.
By no stretch of imagination can Pakistan be construed as the main thrust of this story.
regards
temporal
.
#78 Posted by farangi_kush on March 9, 2000 11:51:49 am
PM:#79
Welcome back!
I never noticed that you were armed or unarmed before!As far as I am concerned I,as a muslim,am always prepared.
may be little by little you might come around.
``Rah pay un ko laga lai tho hain baaton mein
Aur khul jaen gey do chaar mulaquaton mein``
translation:I have managed to sweet-talk her into seeing it my way.In a tryst or two more,she might open-up herself to me.
wassalaam.
Welcome back!
I never noticed that you were armed or unarmed before!As far as I am concerned I,as a muslim,am always prepared.
may be little by little you might come around.
``Rah pay un ko laga lai tho hain baaton mein
Aur khul jaen gey do chaar mulaquaton mein``
translation:I have managed to sweet-talk her into seeing it my way.In a tryst or two more,she might open-up herself to me.
wassalaam.
#79 Posted by temporal on March 9, 2000 12:01:33 pm
PM #78
I am piqued. Specially after recommending you for the Chowk chapter of the Society for the Prevention of Word Abuse. (FJ you should be there too.)
You say, “I`m sure you knew that the theme of your ARTICLE was bound to be lost on many readers..” I decided to ignore countless others who have also called this an article, but coming from you......
Let us go the dictionary way:
article n 1: nonfictional prose forming an independent part of a publication
2:A particular section or item of a series in a written document, as in a contract, constitution, or treaty.
3:A nonfictional literary composition that forms an independent part of a publication, as of a newspaper or magazine.
As I have said in #28 this is fiction.
Okay, so we continue with your quote, “I`m sure you knew that the theme of your ARTICLE was bound to be lost on many readers..”
No. Most Chowk readers are far more intelligent than you are giving them credit for.
Besides this is not a passing image that will be lost forever. This is the printed word. One can always refer back, again re-read part or the whole.
You also say, “.. I can see what must’ve been one motive --among others, I’m sure ;-) -- behind the shocking beginning… that is, to incite and provoke the ‘hungama’ you seem to like so much.....”
‘Incite’ is the wrong choice of word again. As is ‘provoke’. Invitation, rather jarring, jolting invitation to think would be more proper descriptive phrase. As for the hungama bit, if you are insinuating meaningless trifle hungama then I have little time for it.
“Maybe you do feel that change necessitates a shock of that those proportions? Would like to know your considered response.” ---------Feel I have already answered this above.
Arun feels others are invalidating my beliefs. Nothing of the sort. Tried to answer as best. Perhaps will return to his query again after some time and try answering it afresh. Labels are meaningless if one is not a decent being. Glad you enjoyed the story. How’s Ga?
regards
temporal
I am piqued. Specially after recommending you for the Chowk chapter of the Society for the Prevention of Word Abuse. (FJ you should be there too.)
You say, “I`m sure you knew that the theme of your ARTICLE was bound to be lost on many readers..” I decided to ignore countless others who have also called this an article, but coming from you......
Let us go the dictionary way:
article n 1: nonfictional prose forming an independent part of a publication
2:A particular section or item of a series in a written document, as in a contract, constitution, or treaty.
3:A nonfictional literary composition that forms an independent part of a publication, as of a newspaper or magazine.
As I have said in #28 this is fiction.
Okay, so we continue with your quote, “I`m sure you knew that the theme of your ARTICLE was bound to be lost on many readers..”
No. Most Chowk readers are far more intelligent than you are giving them credit for.
Besides this is not a passing image that will be lost forever. This is the printed word. One can always refer back, again re-read part or the whole.
You also say, “.. I can see what must’ve been one motive --among others, I’m sure ;-) -- behind the shocking beginning… that is, to incite and provoke the ‘hungama’ you seem to like so much.....”
‘Incite’ is the wrong choice of word again. As is ‘provoke’. Invitation, rather jarring, jolting invitation to think would be more proper descriptive phrase. As for the hungama bit, if you are insinuating meaningless trifle hungama then I have little time for it.
“Maybe you do feel that change necessitates a shock of that those proportions? Would like to know your considered response.” ---------Feel I have already answered this above.
Arun feels others are invalidating my beliefs. Nothing of the sort. Tried to answer as best. Perhaps will return to his query again after some time and try answering it afresh. Labels are meaningless if one is not a decent being. Glad you enjoyed the story. How’s Ga?
regards
temporal
#80 Posted by macgupta on March 9, 2000 2:00:20 pm
Since I posted the fatwas against S. Azmi, here is the news-item about the responses :
Fatwa earns Shabana loads of support
Syed Amin Jafri in Hyderabad
Civil rights activists, left parties and prominent religious personalities in the city have decried the religious edict issued by five Islamic seminaries against actress Shabana Azmi and other Muslim film stars.
The institutions were reacting mainly to Azmi`s tonsuring her head for the controversial film Water, and want her to ``renew the faith.``
People`s Union for Civil Liberties president K G Kannabiran said, ``Any fundamentalist posture by minority or majority community is totally undemocratic.``
``I don`t think any community leadership has the right to compel any member to conform to their views,`` Kannabiran told rediff.com.
``What is the great difference between the [Sangh Parivar`s] protest against Water, the attack on [social reformist] Asghar Ali Engineer [by fundamentalist elements] and the fatwa against the stars?`` he asked.
Kannabiran said the fundamentalist groups of all communities have the same outlook. ``I am not able to understand how these groups arrogantly claim the right to issue edicts. They don`t have any legitimate authority to give these commands. How can anyone arrogate to himself the authority to issue fatwa?`` he wondered.
Urdu writer Jeelani Bano found the controversy utterly unpalatable. ``Why is it that they have picked on poor Shabana Azmi?`` she asked. ``Why don`t they bother about Dilip Kumar, Shahrukh Khan, Aamir Khan, Salman Khan and other actors? This only shows their [the Muslim religious leaders`] bias against women and their penchant for projecting non-issues.``
Associated with the progressive writers` movement in Hyderabad for over three-and-a-half decades, Bano has penned two novels and 18 books, all in Urdu. ``Not only Azmi but also many other Muslim actresses like Nergis, Waheeda Rahman and Meena Kumari performed many un-Islamic acts on the screen such as romancing, dancing and drinking. Where were these ulemas [religious leaders] all these years? Why they have suddenly woken up to a tonsured Shabana?
``Dilip Kumar, Shahrukh Khan, Aamir Khan and other Muslim actors also perform un-Islamic acts on the screen,`` she continued. ``They dance, drink, prance, romance and display large battus on their foreheads. Why don`t these ulemas go after them instead of picking on only Shabana Azmi?`` Bano wanted to know.
Communist Party of India-Marxist state council secretary B V Raghuvulu termed the fatwa as ``unfortunate.`` Cultural activity and religion should not be mixed, he felt.
``As a professional actress, she did something. But this cannot be construed as an act against her faith or an anti-religious act, `` he said.
The fatwa came in for flak from an unexpected quarter too: a section of Muslim religious leaders and prominent personalities found the whole controversy unnecessary.
``These fatwas are unnecessary. The matters covered are not community issues at all. We don`t attach any importance to these fatwas,`` said All India Muslim Personal Law Board secretary Maulana M A Raheem Qureishi. He is also the president of the All India Majlis-e-Tameer-e-Millat, a socio-cultural organisation of Muslims in Hyderabad.
The maulana told rediff.com that ``some persons, to gain publicity, have raked up this non-issue. They want to popularise their newly-launched weekly by sensationalising the issue. We also feel that they [the religious seminaries] should not issue fatwas on such trivial issues which concern no one.``
Responding to this criticism, Syed Fazil Hussain Parvez, the city-based journalist who sought the fatwa, said:
``There has been a raging controversy in all Urdu newspapers and in Muslim circles in the city on whether Shabana Azmi`s act of tonsuring her head was correct and whether she continued to be a Muslim after perpetrating such an act.
``I only acted as the mediator between the Muslim masses and the religious institutions to get the Islamic view on this controversy. I have no vested interest, nor do I have any view of my own on this issue,`` he said.
Now that the fatwas have been issued, what next? Parvez had no idea.
``I really don`t know,`` he said. ``It is for Shabana Azmi and other Muslim stars to act or react. It is up to them to atone for their sins. Acting itself is against Islamic tenets. Committing polytheistic acts only compounds the sin. Why don`t you seek their response?``
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