Study in Black
Bina Shah March 12, 2000
#152 Posted by krashid on May 3, 2000 5:10:21 am
The question I asked to you are important.
AS you said only a ruler will implement.
Although, it is true that rulers implement. But how do the rulers want to derive their authority.
Is it an authority, thay have to take in the name of God and then implement it on all the people.
What if people don`t agree.
Are they to be beheaded, bacause of ``Irtidad`` as not accepting the ruler is a form of apostasy in Islam according to some Hadith.
What if a group like Shia refuse to pay ``Zakaat`` to Government (but do it individually).
The more you think on these question, the more it becomes clear.
On what basis are you going to take authority?
How you are going to implement it?
AS you said only a ruler will implement.
Although, it is true that rulers implement. But how do the rulers want to derive their authority.
Is it an authority, thay have to take in the name of God and then implement it on all the people.
What if people don`t agree.
Are they to be beheaded, bacause of ``Irtidad`` as not accepting the ruler is a form of apostasy in Islam according to some Hadith.
What if a group like Shia refuse to pay ``Zakaat`` to Government (but do it individually).
The more you think on these question, the more it becomes clear.
On what basis are you going to take authority?
How you are going to implement it?
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#151 Posted by escapist on May 1, 2000 12:37:27 pm
salam all
krashid:well..ur questions
1. how do i want to implement.
well..its is not my duty to implement this interpretation of islam as you put it.
it is the duty of the ruler to do all that..i can only implement that on my self..and for those whom im responsicble.
and of course i have autority over those.
bina:
interesting suggestion regarding men..but dont you think we should as muslim agree o those conditions for men and women which were practised in the madina during the time of prophet.
i agree on the point that some scholers do feel that covering the face is not ``fardh`` but they all agree they it certainly a good act.
by the way, i guess we can agree on the headcovering part ..cant we.
PS: my point still remains that relegious beliefs are not based on logical arguments..take hijab as part of the deal.
may you live in interesting times.
krashid:well..ur questions
1. how do i want to implement.
well..its is not my duty to implement this interpretation of islam as you put it.
it is the duty of the ruler to do all that..i can only implement that on my self..and for those whom im responsicble.
and of course i have autority over those.
bina:
interesting suggestion regarding men..but dont you think we should as muslim agree o those conditions for men and women which were practised in the madina during the time of prophet.
i agree on the point that some scholers do feel that covering the face is not ``fardh`` but they all agree they it certainly a good act.
by the way, i guess we can agree on the headcovering part ..cant we.
PS: my point still remains that relegious beliefs are not based on logical arguments..take hijab as part of the deal.
may you live in interesting times.
#150 Posted by Bina on April 23, 2000 2:58:41 pm
Dear Escapist,
The same verse (Surah 33:59) is given in my Yusuf Ali translation as follows:
59. O Prophet! Tell thy wives and daughters, and the believing women, that they should cast their outer garments over their persons (when abroad): that is most convenient, that they should be known (as such) and not molested. And Allah is Oft- Forgiving, Most Merciful.
Here is the verse from Surah Al-Nur:
31. And say to the believing women that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty; that they should not display their beauty and ornaments except what (must ordinarily) appear thereof; that they should draw their veils over their bosoms and not display their beauty except to their husbands, their fathers, their husband`s fathers, their sons, their husbands` sons, their brothers or their brothers` sons, or their sisters` sons, or their women, or the slaves whom their right hands possess, or male servants free of physical needs, or small children who have no sense of the shame of sex; and that they should not strike their feet in order to draw attention to their hidden ornaments. And O ye Believers! turn ye all together towards Allah, that ye may attain Bliss.
I see no mention of the necessity of covering everything except the eyes, the need to wear gloves, etc. etc. You may decide that the hardline interpretation of these verses works for you, but could we not argue that the verses where men are instructed to lower their gaze in front of believing women thus means that men should wear a special set of blinkers like those that horses wear, to ensure that their eyes do not wander to women`s bodies?
The same verse (Surah 33:59) is given in my Yusuf Ali translation as follows:
59. O Prophet! Tell thy wives and daughters, and the believing women, that they should cast their outer garments over their persons (when abroad): that is most convenient, that they should be known (as such) and not molested. And Allah is Oft- Forgiving, Most Merciful.
Here is the verse from Surah Al-Nur:
31. And say to the believing women that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty; that they should not display their beauty and ornaments except what (must ordinarily) appear thereof; that they should draw their veils over their bosoms and not display their beauty except to their husbands, their fathers, their husband`s fathers, their sons, their husbands` sons, their brothers or their brothers` sons, or their sisters` sons, or their women, or the slaves whom their right hands possess, or male servants free of physical needs, or small children who have no sense of the shame of sex; and that they should not strike their feet in order to draw attention to their hidden ornaments. And O ye Believers! turn ye all together towards Allah, that ye may attain Bliss.
I see no mention of the necessity of covering everything except the eyes, the need to wear gloves, etc. etc. You may decide that the hardline interpretation of these verses works for you, but could we not argue that the verses where men are instructed to lower their gaze in front of believing women thus means that men should wear a special set of blinkers like those that horses wear, to ensure that their eyes do not wander to women`s bodies?
#149 Posted by krashid on April 23, 2000 10:33:08 am
Escapist!
I have one question for you?
How do you want to implement your interpretation of Islam?
Who has given you this authority?
I have one question for you?
How do you want to implement your interpretation of Islam?
Who has given you this authority?
#148 Posted by escapist on April 22, 2000 2:50:02 am
salam all.
well..this is my first time here on the forum..and i think im already addicited to this..so its good bye to mIRC .
im not really good with words..so that is one thing.
i found htis discussion pretty interesting and well, for one thing i am begining to like FARANGI_KUSH`s ideas.. hmm does that make me fundo, talibanized and decadent..?!
do i really care? NO!
i think Omar mIrza`s article are in very bad taste, and i find the same hatered, and ignorence that he claims is the basic characterstic of taliban.
im not very well versed with islamic system of education that is madrassah, but according to my understanding, ppl spend around eight years over studying jurisprudence and hadith and linghuistics, which hardly makes them ``jahil`` as our friend repeatedly tells us. well, there might be lot of ulema, who are not helping islam, and perhaps bringing bad name and all, but then again..dont we have liberals like Omar Mirza, who want to ban hijab and beard and even shalwar kameez.
problem as i see it, and i may be wrong, is that we have alienated our selves from islam, and have hard time looking at our deficencies and find it more easier to blame it on MULLAHs
i hope FARANGI_KUSH would put more light on it.
now coming back to the article, i think bina has done some good writing here, but she fails to understand that matters of relegion are not based on logical arguments, though islam still remains pretty rationale.
Now considering ur self in the folds of islam, i wonder if concept of free sex really makes anysense. one should either reject the islam or follows it wholeheartedly.
O Prophet! Tell your wives and your daughters and the women of the
believers to draw their cloaks (veils, screen themselves completely except the eyes ) all over their bodies.” (Surah Al-Ahzaab – Verse #59 This tafseer is Agreed upon by Ibn Kathir, Qurtabi and At Tabrani )
And Say to the believing women to lower their gaze (from looking at forbidden things), and protect their private parts (from illegal sexual acts) and not to show off their adornment except only that which is apparent (like both eyes for necessity to see the way, or outer palms of hands dress like veil, gloves, head cover, apron), and to draw their veils all over Juyubihinna (i.e. their bodies, faces, necks and bosoms) (Surah An-Nur, Verses 30-31, This tafseer is Agreed upon by Ibn Kathir, Qurtabi and At Tabrani )
Generally there are two opinions regarding covering the face. One view held by the Ulema is that the niqab (covering the face) is wajib (compulsory) and other Ulema hold the view it is Mustahab (recommended and the best thing to do but not compulsory)
i dont wanna make it as a sermon as some of you would point out that i have no right to propogate my ideas of islam and its personal matter. but i d still say islam does not belive in subjectivism. and i have quoted just the quran.
the truth is that hijab is not for anyone, its a identity of muslim women and the will of allah.
and that is it. if one doesnt practise it, as a muslim he must not redicule the concept. as in quran allah (swt) says.
``Was it Allah, and His Signs and His Messenger you were mocking? Make no excuse, you have disbelieved after you had
believed. If We pardon some of you, We will punish others among you because they were sinners`` (al-Tauba 65-66).
thank you
PS farungi Kush and Omar Phoenix: Allah karey Zore Qalam Aur Zyada.
allah says : ``
...and shun the word that is false.`` xxii:30
well..this is my first time here on the forum..and i think im already addicited to this..so its good bye to mIRC .
im not really good with words..so that is one thing.
i found htis discussion pretty interesting and well, for one thing i am begining to like FARANGI_KUSH`s ideas.. hmm does that make me fundo, talibanized and decadent..?!
do i really care? NO!
i think Omar mIrza`s article are in very bad taste, and i find the same hatered, and ignorence that he claims is the basic characterstic of taliban.
im not very well versed with islamic system of education that is madrassah, but according to my understanding, ppl spend around eight years over studying jurisprudence and hadith and linghuistics, which hardly makes them ``jahil`` as our friend repeatedly tells us. well, there might be lot of ulema, who are not helping islam, and perhaps bringing bad name and all, but then again..dont we have liberals like Omar Mirza, who want to ban hijab and beard and even shalwar kameez.
problem as i see it, and i may be wrong, is that we have alienated our selves from islam, and have hard time looking at our deficencies and find it more easier to blame it on MULLAHs
i hope FARANGI_KUSH would put more light on it.
now coming back to the article, i think bina has done some good writing here, but she fails to understand that matters of relegion are not based on logical arguments, though islam still remains pretty rationale.
Now considering ur self in the folds of islam, i wonder if concept of free sex really makes anysense. one should either reject the islam or follows it wholeheartedly.
O Prophet! Tell your wives and your daughters and the women of the
believers to draw their cloaks (veils, screen themselves completely except the eyes ) all over their bodies.” (Surah Al-Ahzaab – Verse #59 This tafseer is Agreed upon by Ibn Kathir, Qurtabi and At Tabrani )
And Say to the believing women to lower their gaze (from looking at forbidden things), and protect their private parts (from illegal sexual acts) and not to show off their adornment except only that which is apparent (like both eyes for necessity to see the way, or outer palms of hands dress like veil, gloves, head cover, apron), and to draw their veils all over Juyubihinna (i.e. their bodies, faces, necks and bosoms) (Surah An-Nur, Verses 30-31, This tafseer is Agreed upon by Ibn Kathir, Qurtabi and At Tabrani )
Generally there are two opinions regarding covering the face. One view held by the Ulema is that the niqab (covering the face) is wajib (compulsory) and other Ulema hold the view it is Mustahab (recommended and the best thing to do but not compulsory)
i dont wanna make it as a sermon as some of you would point out that i have no right to propogate my ideas of islam and its personal matter. but i d still say islam does not belive in subjectivism. and i have quoted just the quran.
the truth is that hijab is not for anyone, its a identity of muslim women and the will of allah.
and that is it. if one doesnt practise it, as a muslim he must not redicule the concept. as in quran allah (swt) says.
``Was it Allah, and His Signs and His Messenger you were mocking? Make no excuse, you have disbelieved after you had
believed. If We pardon some of you, We will punish others among you because they were sinners`` (al-Tauba 65-66).
thank you
PS farungi Kush and Omar Phoenix: Allah karey Zore Qalam Aur Zyada.
allah says : ``
...and shun the word that is false.`` xxii:30
#147 Posted by farangi_kush on March 29, 2000 10:55:40 am
krashid:#149
Thank you very much for sharing your personal & first-hand experience about the Great Nation of the Islamic Republic of Iran.
Mukhtar Masood,the scholar/literateur/and renowned
civil servant,former chairman of RCD was In Iran when Ayattullah Khomeini returned from Paris.Mukhtar Masood has documented that glorious moment in Islamic history in his acclaimed book ``Loh e Ayyam``.Worth Reading.
sigalph235:148
Lady Liberty will continue to stand mute & unmoved forever.It did so when the Satanic hordes returned tattered & humiliated from every country they tried to subjugate.It has been rusting from the days of the slavery and illegal occupation of the native lands(this is not going to go away!!! -the `Indian` cause must be kept smouldering).This lady gets raped,bludgeoned,murdered,shot at every living moment by the uniformed criminals.
Do I have an objection? Maybe,maybe not.As long as this chartered thugs of a States keep its perversions & proclivities within its borders no one is interested in their affairs.The soon they dissipate themselves so much the better for the rest of the world.If not,there is always another Somalia whetting the blades & greasing the drag-carts.
If you are `real` friends with the locals(non-muslims) they will tell you the same thing(even anglos origins).Only those who have not seen good life before become their unconditional loyalists.
LOYALTY TO ANY COUNTRY AS A NATION IS AN OUT-DATED CONCEPT.IT IS FAST VANISHING.
wassalaam.
Thank you very much for sharing your personal & first-hand experience about the Great Nation of the Islamic Republic of Iran.
Mukhtar Masood,the scholar/literateur/and renowned
civil servant,former chairman of RCD was In Iran when Ayattullah Khomeini returned from Paris.Mukhtar Masood has documented that glorious moment in Islamic history in his acclaimed book ``Loh e Ayyam``.Worth Reading.
sigalph235:148
Lady Liberty will continue to stand mute & unmoved forever.It did so when the Satanic hordes returned tattered & humiliated from every country they tried to subjugate.It has been rusting from the days of the slavery and illegal occupation of the native lands(this is not going to go away!!! -the `Indian` cause must be kept smouldering).This lady gets raped,bludgeoned,murdered,shot at every living moment by the uniformed criminals.
Do I have an objection? Maybe,maybe not.As long as this chartered thugs of a States keep its perversions & proclivities within its borders no one is interested in their affairs.The soon they dissipate themselves so much the better for the rest of the world.If not,there is always another Somalia whetting the blades & greasing the drag-carts.
If you are `real` friends with the locals(non-muslims) they will tell you the same thing(even anglos origins).Only those who have not seen good life before become their unconditional loyalists.
LOYALTY TO ANY COUNTRY AS A NATION IS AN OUT-DATED CONCEPT.IT IS FAST VANISHING.
wassalaam.
#146 Posted by farangi_kush on March 28, 2000 10:29:05 am
Binashah:#147
That was no troublemaking or Fitna-bazi on my part.This should have been evident to you by the smiling winking icon at the end of the sentence.
Sometimes irony & humour brings out the ``Truth`` much more effectively.
I am thankful to you to have even considered the subject worth writing about.The ones who have gone off the deep farangi-end don`t even care about it anymore.
Blind following be it in `fashion`,`modernity` or of `religion`,it is nothing but slavery of mind.
We cannot stop it either---there will always be fierce leaders at one extreme and pavlovian copy-cats at the other.Majority takes the unthinking attitude and wants someone to do the thinking for them.These are the signs of a society willing to disintegrate itself----USA & UK are prime examples of such societies today just as the moghals were during last 100 years of their rule.
wassalaam.
That was no troublemaking or Fitna-bazi on my part.This should have been evident to you by the smiling winking icon at the end of the sentence.
Sometimes irony & humour brings out the ``Truth`` much more effectively.
I am thankful to you to have even considered the subject worth writing about.The ones who have gone off the deep farangi-end don`t even care about it anymore.
Blind following be it in `fashion`,`modernity` or of `religion`,it is nothing but slavery of mind.
We cannot stop it either---there will always be fierce leaders at one extreme and pavlovian copy-cats at the other.Majority takes the unthinking attitude and wants someone to do the thinking for them.These are the signs of a society willing to disintegrate itself----USA & UK are prime examples of such societies today just as the moghals were during last 100 years of their rule.
wassalaam.
#145 Posted by Molko on March 28, 2000 10:29:05 am
Bina:
You seem to have quite a romantic view of Britain-cricket, high tea, and all the rest of it. Modern Britian doesn`t look for its identity in such useless symbols as the flag, or the monarchy. So whoever (politicians, skinheads, ageing, staid rock musicians) wishes to appropriate these things for whatever reason is free to do so. Young Britian, on the other hand, will be eating kebabs and grooving to the sounds of Asian Dub Foundation.
You seem to have quite a romantic view of Britain-cricket, high tea, and all the rest of it. Modern Britian doesn`t look for its identity in such useless symbols as the flag, or the monarchy. So whoever (politicians, skinheads, ageing, staid rock musicians) wishes to appropriate these things for whatever reason is free to do so. Young Britian, on the other hand, will be eating kebabs and grooving to the sounds of Asian Dub Foundation.
#144 Posted by krashid on March 28, 2000 10:29:05 am
I am not aware of much about Sudan, or Afghanistan and what reaches me is a second hand information and third rate propaganda.
But Iran, I have a first hand knowledge, as I have lived there and I am still in touch with it.
It is true that Iranians give a damn to America. Not like us when Pakistan is trying to woe Clinton to come to Pakistan and India very happy that Zille Ilahi Clinton now has a tilt towards America.
I don`t understand the grudge against Iran.
Is Iran not a democratic Country. At least it is electing liberals and not BJP. Is Iranian Givernment not investing in infrastructure or human resources. Are basic human rights not given there.
Is the Government not spending on the education, health and social services of its people.
Is Iran not producing world class literature and scientists and professionals to cater to the needs of its own people.
I think of all the countries in this region, Iran is most advanced and pragmatic and has a vision of future.
Moreover to add to the feather Iran has always been independent and has such a rich culture, that we from sub continent can only learn from them.
But Iran, I have a first hand knowledge, as I have lived there and I am still in touch with it.
It is true that Iranians give a damn to America. Not like us when Pakistan is trying to woe Clinton to come to Pakistan and India very happy that Zille Ilahi Clinton now has a tilt towards America.
I don`t understand the grudge against Iran.
Is Iran not a democratic Country. At least it is electing liberals and not BJP. Is Iranian Givernment not investing in infrastructure or human resources. Are basic human rights not given there.
Is the Government not spending on the education, health and social services of its people.
Is Iran not producing world class literature and scientists and professionals to cater to the needs of its own people.
I think of all the countries in this region, Iran is most advanced and pragmatic and has a vision of future.
Moreover to add to the feather Iran has always been independent and has such a rich culture, that we from sub continent can only learn from them.
#143 Posted by sigalph235 on March 28, 2000 2:59:00 am
Farngi_Kush; get the facts straight. His Majesty King Zahir Shah went to Rome not the US.
And some ``bastions of resistance`` Afghanistan, Sudan, and Iran are! These are regimes who jail half their population, kill innocent women and children abroad (remember the Embassy bombings) and export medieval terror to the corners of the world. Thanks to them ordinary Muslims living peacefully in Europe and the US have suddenly become suspect amongst their neighbors. Some `manly` resistance there!!!
Thank God not too many people are idiotic enough to buy that `resistance` non-sense. There is indeed a war going on today between those in favour of human freedom and those against. I am afraid you and your kind are on the wrong side. I say `wrong` only bacause history tell us that eventually freedom is victorious over slavery.
Lady Liberty will stand long after freedom has won in Afghanistan and Sudan and Iran.
And some ``bastions of resistance`` Afghanistan, Sudan, and Iran are! These are regimes who jail half their population, kill innocent women and children abroad (remember the Embassy bombings) and export medieval terror to the corners of the world. Thanks to them ordinary Muslims living peacefully in Europe and the US have suddenly become suspect amongst their neighbors. Some `manly` resistance there!!!
Thank God not too many people are idiotic enough to buy that `resistance` non-sense. There is indeed a war going on today between those in favour of human freedom and those against. I am afraid you and your kind are on the wrong side. I say `wrong` only bacause history tell us that eventually freedom is victorious over slavery.
Lady Liberty will stand long after freedom has won in Afghanistan and Sudan and Iran.
#142 Posted by Bina on March 28, 2000 2:04:07 am
Molko:
``Cool Britannia`` a Blairite invention! I sense great disillusionment with your Prime Minister, despite his virility... I guess my question was, why should a fringe hate group lay claim to your national symbol? And why should the rest of you let them do it?
Farangi_Kush:
You are a little troublemaker, aren`t you? Fitna-bazi is not good for the soul!
``Cool Britannia`` a Blairite invention! I sense great disillusionment with your Prime Minister, despite his virility... I guess my question was, why should a fringe hate group lay claim to your national symbol? And why should the rest of you let them do it?
Farangi_Kush:
You are a little troublemaker, aren`t you? Fitna-bazi is not good for the soul!
#141 Posted by farangi_kush on March 28, 2000 12:32:09 am
sigalph235:#144
Dear sigalph235,
King Zahir Shah ran away from his ancestoral lands when the going got tough.Plundered the wealth of the country.Ran to US.
Why should thieves run to masjids or girjas with their booty? The mafiosis run to their own kind for protection.Criminal Battista`s Cubans have to seek haven where vulgarity is rampant & not where vices are,what else,Vices.
Afghanistan & Sudan are bastions of resistance against the Satan--just as Iran was.You must have read the `treatment` Iran gave to the Satan when last week she asked it to apologise in the proper manner before Iran would even consider It to be admitted into Iranian circle.Albright was publicly admonished & rebuked.
A godfather or Don of the mafia family is considered a very gentle family partriach by its women & children.The system runs like clock-work,efficient,precise & with its own brand of morality.
The Great Satan(USA) has been brandished similarly even by its friends & allies so please do not have so much sympathy for it.
I just cannot ignore the fact that IT is very good to its own brood.The problem is,as I already said,us.We should NEVER kow-tow to IT.
wassalaam.
Dear sigalph235,
King Zahir Shah ran away from his ancestoral lands when the going got tough.Plundered the wealth of the country.Ran to US.
Why should thieves run to masjids or girjas with their booty? The mafiosis run to their own kind for protection.Criminal Battista`s Cubans have to seek haven where vulgarity is rampant & not where vices are,what else,Vices.
Afghanistan & Sudan are bastions of resistance against the Satan--just as Iran was.You must have read the `treatment` Iran gave to the Satan when last week she asked it to apologise in the proper manner before Iran would even consider It to be admitted into Iranian circle.Albright was publicly admonished & rebuked.
A godfather or Don of the mafia family is considered a very gentle family partriach by its women & children.The system runs like clock-work,efficient,precise & with its own brand of morality.
The Great Satan(USA) has been brandished similarly even by its friends & allies so please do not have so much sympathy for it.
I just cannot ignore the fact that IT is very good to its own brood.The problem is,as I already said,us.We should NEVER kow-tow to IT.
wassalaam.
#140 Posted by farangi_kush on March 28, 2000 12:32:09 am
SR:#142
Thank you for your acknowledgement.I have never ever suggested that we blame EVERYTHING on the farangi.Let me clarify again:Farangi is not necessarily `western`,or `english`.It is the mindset which makes some of our ignorant people who think of themselves otherwise and who copy things slavishly.Instead of acquiring attitudes and habits necessary for a `clock-work` society these people believe that by disowning their own glorious traditions they can hop-step-and jump into the farangi La-La-Land.
We are on the same side.Sometimes a little ruthless visage is presented to bring sense into the buffoon`s brains.
Please read my reply to Bina to understand the context of this.Some of our teenage boys were sporting the koochi-beards when they were the rage without even knowing the significance of those.There is such a pull to look like the massas(masters) that these slaves would lovingly caress the whip used earlier upon them.
The Pakistanis ( & North Indians minus Bengalis)
excel at this.
It is our mindset vis-a vis the Farangi that I talk about.
Thank you for your acknowledgement.I have never ever suggested that we blame EVERYTHING on the farangi.Let me clarify again:Farangi is not necessarily `western`,or `english`.It is the mindset which makes some of our ignorant people who think of themselves otherwise and who copy things slavishly.Instead of acquiring attitudes and habits necessary for a `clock-work` society these people believe that by disowning their own glorious traditions they can hop-step-and jump into the farangi La-La-Land.
We are on the same side.Sometimes a little ruthless visage is presented to bring sense into the buffoon`s brains.
Please read my reply to Bina to understand the context of this.Some of our teenage boys were sporting the koochi-beards when they were the rage without even knowing the significance of those.There is such a pull to look like the massas(masters) that these slaves would lovingly caress the whip used earlier upon them.
The Pakistanis ( & North Indians minus Bengalis)
excel at this.
It is our mindset vis-a vis the Farangi that I talk about.
#139 Posted by sigalph235 on March 27, 2000 9:25:10 pm
Farangikush you wrote ``Is it not tragic that when the tyrants like marcos,pinochet,salinas,shah iran and our own BB choose a haven they are welcomed by the Great Satan``
I don`t recall any of these people getting into the Taleban controlled Afghanistan. Isn`t that what you meant by ``Great Satan``! Or did you mean the Sudan? Or maybe Iran?
I don`t recall any of these people getting into the Taleban controlled Afghanistan. Isn`t that what you meant by ``Great Satan``! Or did you mean the Sudan? Or maybe Iran?
#138 Posted by ilovemoney on March 27, 2000 9:25:10 pm
I was surprised to see so many replies to an article, however well written, on a non-issue like this. Then I read the replies and I think the problem is not veiling exactly but that it is seen as a symbol of some Islamic social system and the debate is about the system...
so my suggestion is let`s make something else, like beards? beards are good a symbol instead and then people can argue about men`s facial hair instead of women`s clothes.
so my suggestion is let`s make something else, like beards? beards are good a symbol instead and then people can argue about men`s facial hair instead of women`s clothes.
#137 Posted by SR on March 27, 2000 9:15:45 pm
Frangi Kush #140
[``... a saga ... about the intellectual & moral erosion that has occured in ourselves. The real enemy is us and not US(A)...``]
Thank you for telling the truth instead of blaming the `frangi` for everything.
An old Chinese proverb claims that it is far better to light one tiny candle than to curse a sea of darkness.
...SR
[``... a saga ... about the intellectual & moral erosion that has occured in ourselves. The real enemy is us and not US(A)...``]
Thank you for telling the truth instead of blaming the `frangi` for everything.
An old Chinese proverb claims that it is far better to light one tiny candle than to curse a sea of darkness.
...SR
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