Different Eagles, Same Genus

ylh:

I`m still waiting for you to respond to #100. I don`t see any personal attacks in that one.

Ironic how you scream about being attacked personally and then you go attacking Indians with a rather hoo-ha, baseless, and rather frustrated childish response.

AliReza:

Good for you. You guys keep winning cricket matches while the rest of the world focuses on economic growth. Good job locating that drop of Persian/Afghani blood coursing through your veins -- sitting around searching for that drop seems to be a favorite passtime for a lot of you.

To the Paki creature who talked about BJP:

At least they were ELECTED to run the government by the people, which included Muslims. It never ceases to amaze me how you guys think Pakistan`s allergy to secularism and democracy is an infectous and contagious disease.

Also, the BJP govt just granted your bro Salman Rushdie a visa to visit and stay in India as he pleases. Some fundamentalists, eh? How many mullahs would hunt him down were he to set foot on Pakistani soil??

I was out of circulation and could not respond.



Umairr #75

``

``And certainly nobody joins it for the money. No one.``

Every profession in the world has a financial threshold below which no one will join that profession. For example, very very few people will join the ........``

I am not sure whether you did not understand the metaphorical statement ``nobody joins for money``

or you are utilizing your talent for selective understanding. The statement was not to mean that people join the Indian Forces for free. It meant that anybody who joins the Indian Military knows that other options invariably pay higher , in the context of IAF pilots who join as officers and their equivalent in Army and Navy.

The entrance procedure for an officer is pretty tough, and anyone who can get through these has the same(or better) potential of getting through other professional exams, and later, executive cadre jobs. In brief the entrance exam for NDA (National Defence Academy) has the math, sciences, comprehension, GK ..etc PLUS Physical , psychological, tests on OLQ(officer like qualities), Team leadership tests, ..etc.

The successful candidate here, has a high chance of succeeding elsewhere as well, with better money(within India itself). I am talking of jobs which these guys can get. And NOT comparing with high flying jobs for graduates from prestigious national level schools like IIMs, IITS, NIFT, NID, ..etc where even an Army General`s income will not match some starting salaries.

My point - money is not the PRIMARY motivation for these people who can get better elsewhere. And just for the record - the salaries are not bad either. They are quite comfortable by general standards.

There are also other motivations than those listed earlier - prestige in society & job security. As for soldiers who join as Jawans, have lower skill level and by therefore lesser choice of jobs. As at a lower skill the choice is smaller and the motiviation for Jawans could be job security and higher salaries than most other government jobs. But I have personally seen family tradition, village tradition, patriotism as chief motivation among several Jawans and NCOs.

``...the best and brightest of India do not consider a career in the armed forces their first choice. They opt to go to some of the highly rated technical institutes like the IIT... ``

Why should the ``best and brightest`` only join IITs? For FYI some say the best and brightest go for Medicine, some join the Indian Administrative and Foreign services, others say go into pure science research, journalism, cricket, Management, Law, Accountants, etc. I know(probably every one here does) brilliant people who don`t/did not consider engineering as an option at all. So are these students not-so-bright? Did you consider that they are pursuing their ambitions and dreams which might be different? Or job satisfaction? Emotional need that need fulfilled? Do you think these are options for Mr Ummair?

Every high school student who wants to do engineering in India would love to join an IIT. In other professions too, there are highly revered institutions -IIMs, AIMs, NID, NIFT, JNU, IIS, JIPMER, NDA, IMA .. ..., I could go on. All these institutions have 000s` & 000`s of applicants and ``the best and brightest`` get chosen. You cannot generalize across a country of any size, the preffered profession and colleges for the intellects, now or ever in future. A job, if you notice, is a personal thing not a national aspiration.

You mentioned that bright youngsters join PAF for the money. In the IAF bright or dumb, nobody joins for Petro dollars. There is nothing in my statement(s) to say that only brilliant youngsters join the military nor did I say only the jackasses join the military.

Added to your dis-service to PAF by attributing most of the services` attraction to monetary motivations, (BTW, I wonder why nobody shot you down for this), you are now stating that the entire intelligence in India is going towards IIT ...!!

My suggestion & request , when next time the Pak govt. asks you for advise, point to someone else. After all as an Indian it is my vested interest that Pakistan prospers.

Re: The various posts by YLH

May I respectfully suggest we ignore them? For some one who claims to be such a great student of history and political science, his utterances are, frankly, embarrassing.

Ignoring him is the best option.

Umairr:

I believe the Indians had an operational MiG21 squadron in 1965. I believe there was one encounter between MiGs and F-104s. The MiGs turned and ran which leads me to think they were under orders to avoid air combat. The F-104s were near the end of their CAP so they did not give chase. Incidentally, one of the most creditable Indian achievements of 1965 was when a Gnat(?) shot down an F104 by outturning it, coming up behind it and shooting it down.

I am still awaiting a response from F R. Khan about the PAF`s abysmal performance in 1971 and its reputed poor night flying abilities. Do you have any light to shed on either topic?

Thanks.

ylh: I like your spirit and passion. Your replies come across without deceit and express your personality clearly and with character. This straightforwardness is there in others like the never-say-die Javed Miandad, in the honest leadership of Imran Khan, in the PAF.

Just make sure that you add to this passion with clarity and balance of thought.

You brought back some memories by your support of ZA Bhutto, who with all of his flaws (and he had many) was still as charismatic as any leader anywhere.

I never missed any of his speeches which I and my cohort Sohail saw by climbing electric poles, trees other peoples balconies, and we taped them on a battered Philips recorder - they are as fiery as ever.

with reference to satyavadi (reply #90)

Your comment was:

``While I personally wouldnot mind you being and Indian, I and most other Indians are happy

to have the Jehadits/Talibanists, the Shia/Sunni extremists and the military adventurists

remain Pakistanis. Thank God, we donot have any of those in India.``

You Do have those in India. They go under the name of the BJP and the RSS. They form the government of india and are as narrow minded as any extremist anywhere.

Your other comment was:

``Whats going on in India ?

Whats going on in Pakistan? One eg. Sunni extremists killing Shias in mosques during the

holy month of Muharram. Talk about the tyranny of the majority.``

Above killings (and the tragic killing of 35 Sikhs in Kashmir): courtesy of the RAW.

The differences between Shia/Sunnis never took on this killing in the mosque aspect until RAW decided to help matters along.

Ok ladies and gentlemen ...

Let us assess the situation with an open mind ...

I PRESENT INDIANS WITH FACTS ... they attack me ... BUT they never provide a counterargument .... IS IT NOT THEN THE CHARACTER OF INDIAN NATION????

Talk to them about anything ... they hide behind personal attacks ...they choose to attack your own person instead of being mustering up some courage and trying to come up with the facts denying what I said ... this is characteristic!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I ask all of you who have told me that my grasp of history in reply 79 is shaky .... to refute even one of the statements I made ..

YOU REALLY CANT !!!! LETS FACE IT ... ONCE A LOSER ALWAYS A LOSER!!!!!! AND INDIA IS FULL OF LOSERS!!!

My challenge is open to all of you ... refute any of the facts in #79 .... and with evidence please .... no rondoos and cry babies!!!!!!!!!!

F-104: THE GREAT STARFIGHTER

Re: Umairr Reply #: 99

(1) Your Comment:

``This was specially true in 65 and 71. During those two wars, Pakistan had some of the best air force equipment in the world. This was mostly due to Pakistan`s strong alliance with the US (and purchases from France). Pakistan had F-104s in 65, and Mirages in 71. These were state of the art aircraft of their times.``

Umairr, this is not to show you up, but hopefully to correct some misconceptions. The F-104 Starfighter (billed by US hype as ``Missile With A Man In It``) is openly acknowledged as one of the worst modern day fighters. This was a failed fighter that the US thrust onto its allies. The USAF itself NEVER used the F-104 in combat.

Here are some excerpts from various places:

---However, in the mid-1960s when the Starfighter first entered service in significant numbers, the aircraft was involved in a large number of accidents. Because of the high accident rate, the Starfighter became a controversial aircraft and there were charges that the aircraft was an intrinsically flawed and dangerous design.

---The F-104 interceptor had exceptional performance but rather limited ability to carry equipment and armament. Its all-round fighter-bomber F-104G variant enjoyed great export sales (and a poor reputation for safety), but the early F-104`s were quickly abandoned by the USAF.

---Though incredibly fast for a single-engine aircraft, it was very poor in maneuverability and lacked room to hang external weapons.``

---In June of 1958, English Electric test pilot Roland Beaumont test flew an F-104A. He was quite critical of the Starfighter. He found the aircraft to have inadequate directional damping, evidenced by a persistent low-amplitude short-period oscillation throughout most of the flight regime. The use of a thin, highly-loaded wing had a severe adverse effect on the turning maneuverability. There were excessive break-out forces of the power-controlled ailerons. At high angles of attack, the high-set stabilator would tend to stall in the wing downwash, and a departure into a flat spin was often the result. Recovery from such a flat spin was usually possible only if there was sufficient height so that increased engine power could be applied to accelerate the aircraft back into controlled flight. Beaumont found that subsonic handling properties were unpleasant and particularly dangerous in take-off and landing configuration and were not compatible with bad weather operation. He predicted that the F-104 was likely to suffer a high accident rate in operation.``

---The NF-104 was an F-104 fitted with an additional rocket engine under the tailfin, pointing slightly upwards. It was used for astronaut training; one set a record altitude of 36273m.

---In 1960, after the decision to withdraw the Starfighter from ADC, twenty-four YF-104A and F-104A aircraft (exact ratio uncertain) deemed surplus to USAF requirements were modified as QF-104A radio-controlled target drones. They were painted pillar-box red overall and were operated by the 3205th Drone Squadron at Eglin AFB in Florida. These planes could be flown by onboard pilots or they could be flown by remote control from the ground or from other aircraft. Most of them were expended in missile firing tests.

---The unsuitability of the F-104A for air defense duties with the USAF led to the release of some F-104As for export. The air forces of Taiwan, Pakistan, and Jordan were provided with several F-104As from surplus USAF stocks. Most of the other F-104As which had not been lost to attrition or transferred to foreign air forces went to the boneyards at Davis-Monthan AFB in Arizona.

(2) Your Comments:

``The general theme during those wars was that PAF had better equipment than the IAF, however the IAF had a larger quantity of aircraft.``

``For example, there was no aircraft in the IAF which could engage or even catch the F-104 at high altitudes. This meant that F-104s could loiter over Indian territory at high altitudes, without being under too much of a threat, inside India. There was nothing in the Indian inventory that could get up that high.``

Here are some excerpts about Pakistan`s F-104s:

---The only combat seen by the F-104A/B was in foreign hands. Ten ex-USAF F-104As and two F-104Bs were transferred to the Pakistani Air Force in 1961. They were provided to Pakistan in response to proposed Indian Air Force Mach 2 fighter acquisition, later to be fulfilled by acquisition of the Soviet MiG 21. India had actually attempted to buy 36 F-104s from the US in September of 1961 in response to Chinese border attacks, but had been rebuffed. (Thank God !)

---By the time of the 1965 war with India, such was the fearsome reputation of the F-104 that during an early encounter between a pair of PAF Starfighters with IAF Folland Gnats, one of these dimunitive Indian fighters immediately surrendered, lowering its wheels and landing at the nearest Pakistani airfield without a shot being fired. On September 6, a PAF F-104A flying at 600 knots shot down an IAF Mystere IVA with a Sidewinder missile, and next day another IAF Mystere was shot down by the Vulcan cannon of another F-104. However, the F-104 pilot making the kill make the mistake of slowing down to dogfight with another IAF Mystere, which out-turned him and scored cannon hits on his F-104, forcing him to eject.

---The first encounter in history between Mach 2 fighters took place on September 11, 1965. A single PAF F-104A encountered four IAF MiG-21s from Halwara. The F-104 managed to escape by exiting the combat at tree-top height and Mach 1.1, which the MiG-21s were unable to match. No blood was drawn during this encounter.

---When it found itself confronted with the Indian Air Force`s dimunitive Folland Gnats, the Pakistani F-104As often found themselves outmaneuvered. This was especially true if the Starfighter pilot chose not to use his Mach 2 speed advantage and decided instead to engage in low-speed dogfights with his opponents. In addition, since most of the air-to-air fighting occurred at low altitudes, the Starfighter`s Sidewinder air-to-air missiles were often unable to distinguish between target aircraft and ground clutter and a lot of missiles missed their targets. However, the Starfighter`s afterburner enabled it to break off combat at will and get out of trouble in a hurry.

---A US arms embargo imposed on both India and Pakistan after the 1965 war had prevented further PAF expansion, and by the early 1970s the PAF`s Mach 2 fighter strength was down to only seven single-seat Starfighters with No. 9 Squadron, plus a single Mirage III unit.

---War between Pakistan and India broke out again on December 7, 1971. By this time the Indian MiG force was formidable, with eight squadrons operationally ready. During the 1971 war with India, No 9 Squadron of the Royal Jordanian Air Force with about 10 F-104As was transferred to Pakistan to help out. It is not certain if the Jordanian F-104As were actually used in ccombat and if they were, whether they were flown by Pakistani or Jordanian pilots.

---Both sides have published wildly differing figures for air victories and losses during this war, although it appears that the F-104 came off second-best in the few encounters that occurred with IAF MiG-21s--with the F-104s scoring no confirmed victories and suffering at least two losses. Indian air historians claim that five PAF Starfighters were lost in combat, and they also claim that two Jordanian Starfighters were shot down by MiG-21s on the last day (December 17) of the 1971 war. The PAF has admitted that two PAF Starfighters were lost in combat with IAF MiG-21s during the 1971 war, plus another one lost to ground fire. According to Pakistani sources, nine IAF MiG-21s were shot down on the Western front, with two of them being shot down by PAF fighters (one by an Chinese-built F-6 and another by a F-86 Sabre). The PAF has admitted that the maneuverability of the F-104 was poor during close-in combat and that the F-6 and F-86 were far better in a dogfight.

So, we see that the F-104 could not maneuvre, could not fly slow (at dogfighting speeds), needed very long airfield lengths to land and take off, had limited range and flying time. It could do just one thing well - fly straight and fast. It ended up as suitable for missile target practice and astronaut training.

The ability to `loiter` in the battlefield demands very good slow flying capabilities which I hope you understand now is something the F-104 was never designed to do (It burns up fuel too fast) and it certainly was never `state of the art`.

regards,

AN

Re: satyavadi #90

Firstly, even though I am a Pakistani of Persian and Afghan descent and have no birth link to India whatsoever, I am proud of the fact that we were once part of a great Indus civilization, whether we were being ruled by Dravids or Hindus or Moghuls. Ironically enough, one of the most recognized historic site in Muslim Pakistan is that of the Moen-jo-Daro ruins, a Bhuddist landmark. And in a Hindu India, a Muslim Taj Mahal stands as the most recognized icon. Having said that,

(``India won the Cricket world cup in 1983, and Pakistan only in 1992.``)

ODI matches played between

Pak and Ind: 85

Pakistan has won: 52

India has won: 29

Tied/Abandoned: 4

Besides which, India still hasn`t beaten Pakistan in Pakistan, whereas Pakistan in 1987 demolished the Indian team on Indian soil.

Which sort of makes me smile when I think of Advani`s idiotic statement that India can ``beat Pakistan anytime, anywhere.``

(``You can always cite India`s 1 billion population as a reason, but 140 million is not a small no. either.``)

Which is why it`s really easy for India to come up with at least ONE descent fast bowler.

(``What attempts, stealing wheat from Pakistan ?``)

Gandhi`s last fast was because the Nehru government had refused to pay the allocated partition amount agreed upon by all involved parties, and which was Pakistan`s rightful share (besides which, Pakistan was cheated out of land and military shares as well). History presents an obvious scenario in which Congress leaders tried their level best to make sure Pakistan fails, but lo. Please read Umairr`s post number 75 to get an idea as to what Pakistan has accomplished.

(``I and most other Indians are happy to have the Jehadits/Talibanists, the Shia/Sunni extremists and the military adventurists remain Pakistanis. Thank God, we donot have any of those in India.``)

Knowledgable and educated Pakistanis, believe it or not, actually hate the fact that these extremists are part of Pakistan. Likewise, and to counter your claim about ``not having any of those in India``, I`m sure educated Indians also detest Bal Thakeray and the radical Shiv Sena party.

Regards,

AliReza.

``I apologise for inserting some economic comments into a military oriented board, but thought it may be appropriate to comment on certain comments on the IMF``

-BD

No need to apologise for inserting economic comments into this infantile debate. Your comments give new hope that there are people within us more powerful than the more obsolescent F16`s.

ras siddiqui #76:

[...``I would not call this article `hilarious!`...``]

perhaps you would call it `thought-provoking`?

[...``I think that you could have come up with something upto par at least...``]

i would like to. but chances of finding something upto par in pakistani press are remote.

in any case, i was

just trying to diminish your glee

at finding india-bashing articles

in indian press and reporting

those here.

btw, don`t go and watch

`rules of engagement`. it may

make you sing `blues` again.

also, next time you meet your

aphc friends, ask them

how they are able to construct mansions

in srinagar, and why their sons

go to usa instead of fighting the

opperessive indian forces

in kashmir.

India, Shed the obsession with Pakistan

http://www.naradonline.com/n-news/dispcomment.php3?ID=140

India is back to making Pakistan the sole focus of its foreign policy - By T.K. Arun

http://www.naradonline.com/

I apologise for inserting some economic comments into a military oriented board, but thought it may be appropriate to comment on certain comments on the IMF. Blaming poor old George Soros is very convenient indeed, after all, they are the raw naked face of capitalism. Unfortunately, the truth is rather more prosaic than what is made out. Hedge Funds can be divided into many categories. One of the categories is the ``evil`` one which take currency positions, leverage their positions tremendously, and in a small number of cases, do manage to move the market (e.g., the pound sterling`s crash out of the ERM is one of the famous ones). In most of the cases, they rely on taking arbitrage positions, relying on their models predicting or identifying pricing mismatches. Their ``good`` opponents are the finance ministries and central banks.

If the fundamentals of the currency are good, then nobody goes after the currency. Nobody has gone after the DM, CHF or even the USD. The JPY keeps on getting hit, Malaysia, Thailand got hit. Taiwan didn`t because their fundamentals were good. These hedge funds are not ALL populated by idiots (LTCM being one of the smart idiot firms which got canned), they dont put millions and billions on bad bets. In almost ALL cases, the currency is definitely mismatched with the fundamentals, and governments take the punishment. That is the market for you. If the economic conditions are not right, the market punishes you. Why blame the market or IMF for economic shortcomings? A country like ours raises money first through internal sources (Taxes mainly). Then it goes for concessionaire loans from the multilateral/bilateral agencies or it floats debt on the international markets. If it cannot raise money from that, or if the situation is getting critical, it goes to the IMF. You can forget about the commercial banks for all practical purposes. The IMF is like the surgeon, once one has smoked for 40 years, one goes to him and he gives one few months to live, chops off parts of one`s lungs and throat and thus hopes to cure one. One really cannot blame him for our ills. Would we give money to a profligate, irresponsible person? no, I didn`t think so! That is not to say that the IMF doesnt have shortcomings or faults. Its full of it, but a balanced viewpoint does help in understanding the exigencies of international finance and economics.

cheers

bd

ylh #79: I know you`re not a nice person that`s why I don`t hate doing this to you.

Ahh yes, another Pakistani gone into denial and self-delusion mode. So now India didn`t even produce any great civilizatons, eh?

Well, let`s hope the IMF, World Bank and Standard & Poors all see how ``Pakistan has built itself from the ground up`` into the fabulous shinning mark of humanity that it now is. Especially what with that surreal air force. And what resiliency in building that great Pakistan in the face of bania attacks from across the border.

You should write to Standard & Poors and suggest that they revise Pakistan`s credit and investment ratings up from the gutter that they are now in. Why not have the PAF hold a pay-to-watch air show for the world and use the revenues from that to pay off the debt? Surely, that`s more respectful than watching your finance minister dash from capital to capital begging for that $60M tranche of the IMF loan? Or maybe you can dig out those remarkable ancient cities buried under Pakistan and offer high-end archaelogical expeditions? Those revenues can be used to fill the empty forex coffers.

Hell, send your post to Silicon Valley and just maybe Cisco, Microsoft, and Hewlett-Packard will divert those investments from Banglaore to Rawalpindi. No? But better be careful because just the other day someone was burning TV sets and denouncing capitalism in Karachi.

And maybe you can ask Aziz Premji (Indian muslim) to abandon those banias in Hindu India and move his company over to Pakistan where it can truly fluourish with the great high-tech talent being churned out by the world recognized universities. And maybe that ``Chief Executive`` character can cut him a tax break since the market cap of his company exceeds that of the entire Karachi stock exchange. Ah but wait a minute, that holds true for Infosys too. But that`s owned by a Hindu so you wouldn`t want him around. Unless he converts and establishes a hedge fund for mujahideen in Kashmir.

two-nations #89,91: You have made some interesting observations about the role of the PAF and IAF in wartime.

``PAF, in my opinion, is basically a defensive force with the mandate to gaurd the pakistani skies.. apart dfrom a limited abiliy to act in ground support role, it`s job definitoon is to keep pakistani skies clear of indian planes... i don`t think PAF is capable of going on bombing runs of indian cities or military bases.``

Your overall assessment of the defensive role of the PAF is correct. This is not not only the role of the PAF, but also of the Pakistan army, and navy as well. They are all designed to fight a defensive battle. This is quite apparent from their structure.

However, being a defensive force does not mean that they do not have abilities to carry out strikes on enemy airfields. This is specially true of the PAF. The best time to attack an enemy aircraft is when it is on the ground, not when it is attacking your bases. The only time an enemy aircraft is on the ground is when it is parked in the enemy`s airfield. Therefore, even defensive air forces have a significant, ``offensive`` aspect built into them.

This was specially true in 65 and 71. During those two wars, Pakistan had some of the best air force equipment in the world. This was mostly due to Pakistan`s strong alliance with the US (and purchases from France). Pakistan had F-104s in 65, and Mirages in 71. These were state of the art aircraft of their times. Pakistan had two squadrons of B-57 bombers in both wars also. These aircraft were all designated for airstrike and/or recconnaissance missions inside India.

The general theme during those wars was that PAF had better equipment than the IAF, however the IAF had a larger quantity of aircraft. Because of this, there was somewhat of a balance between the air forces of the two countries, equipment wise. For example, there was no aircraft in the IAF which could engage or even catch the F-104 at high altitudes. This meant that F-104s could loiter over Indian territory at high altitudes, without being under too much of a threat, inside India. There was nothing in the Indian inventory that could get up that high. So there were a significant number of bombing missions carried out by the PAF inside India, with fighter escorts. The same was the case with the IAF; it carried out strike missions inside Pakistan, as well. So I cannot quite agree with the theory that the PAF was generally flying over its own territory under its own radar.

Another point you need to remember is that India has a much larger border than Pakistan. So the IAF has to spread itself out over a much larger geographical area, which to some extent neutralizes its numerical advantage. One more point that needs to mentioned is that a large portion of the air defence is done through radars and SAMs (surface to air missiles), and shoulder launched missiles like the stinger. Aircraft in a sense are not necessarily the best equipment for air defence. If a significant number of enemy aircraft have made it past the SAMs, then more than likely they will achieve some sort of a success, regardless of the friendly aircraf performing air defence.

So on the whole, in 65 and 71 both the IAF and PAF carried out a significant number of offensive and defensive missions. All the B-57s and some of the Mirages were completing designed for bombing and interdiction missions. They serve no purpose in defensive roles.

``Lets look at future war, assuming it will not turn into a nuclear one, i.e. assume the limited war of indians becomes a reality.. since both sides have missiles, the economics of missile use will definitely have to go into the calculations..``

Let`s hope the next war (if there is one) does not involve missiles. In my opinion, the moment the first missile of any kind (nuclear or non-nuclear) is launched, the war will become nuclear; the number of aircraft, tanks, etc. on either side will become immaterial.

If one country launches a missile at the other country, the other country is not going to know whether the missile is nuclear or non-nuclear. So, the second country might retaliate with a nuclear attack, rather that waiting to find out whether the first country`s missile is nuclear.

Secondly, and more importantly is the fact, that the first target for missiles is not airbases. It is the command and control centres, and the nuclear stockpiles of the other country. This means the first missile would be targeted at the nuclear missiles (silos, nuclear reactors, storage facilities etc. ) of the other country. Once the nuclear stockpile of the other country has been eliminated, then the attacking country can basically pick and chose its targets without any fear of retaliation.

Because of this, the moment the attacked country detects a missile of any sort heading towards its country, it is going to assume that is headed towards its nuclear stockpiles. So it will once again, launch its nuclear arsenal without waiting to find out the exact destination of the attacking missile. This will result in a chain reaction, and most major cities of Pakistan and India will go up in smoke. Because of this, I think an all out war between India and Pakistan is not going to occur. I hope I am correct, otherwise, it will be doomsday for both countries. At the point the comparisons of the IAF and PAF or the Israeli air force (or Kashmir, for that matter) will become immaterial.

RE ylh Reply #: 79



You never cease to amaze us with your incredible and insightful grasp of history, facts and knowledge. Your brilliance is always visible, oozing out of every single upper case word and exclamation point you make. Keep up the good work as there seems to be a dearth of good humour on earth. Lenny Bruce, RIP. John Belushi, RIP. Somebody`s gotta keep the flag waving. Attaboy!

`I remain curious as to why Bank of America is leaving Pakistan. Has the carcass been totally cleaned out that gora vultures find no sustenance ? Or is it that the money making transactions, like corrupt and criminal transfer of loot abroad, appear to be under the gunsites of General Amjad at NAB ?`

The Bank of America is leaving Pakistan, where it has had a very succesful business for decades, for the same reason that it is reducing retail operations in the rest of Asia (Macau, India, ROC, and the Middle East): retrenchment. That was the long term corporate policy announced by Chairman Hugh McColl soon after the Oct `98 merger(long before Gen Amjad was anything more than a corp commander). None of the accusations made against Bank of America or Union Bank officials have been prosecuted let alone vindicated by court in the US, Pakistan, UK or elsewhere. Oh yes, please don`t reply with the ``judges can be bought in Paskitan`` nonsense. That said, if the words were ``bhura`` or ``kala`` as opposed to ``gora`` vultures, the commentator would have been described a racist. Our double standards are glaring indeed.

Yes we ought to get back to the issue at hand of PAF and IAF. One thing going for India, generally unmatched by Pakistan, is the fact that India can today produce IN ENTIRETY some of its most utilised combat aircraft. Thus, given sanctions, India can replace, albeit at a slow pace, its losses while for Pakistan, a lost plane is a lost plane (I am not talking about the trainers and choppers or the rebuilding complex in Sindh). Same goes for manpower. Pakistan probably has the better pilots, but again a pilot lost is a pilot lost. India has a vastly bigger pool to draw from including the thousands who man the airlines, the retirees, and the other amateur enthusiasts. At the end of the day, quantity does matter.

As far as I understood we were not debating whether PAF is better than IAF or not ... which we all know PAF is better .... BUT we are talking about the phenomenal flying and fighting skills of Pakistanis in close combat !!!!!