What are they Teaching in Pakistani Schools Today?

Re:satyavadi#22

At the risk of annoying temporal, I have got to respond to your post. You are right on the money that Indians are getting over confident and smug while ignoring the socio-economic time bomb. All this IT stuff cannot hide our problems of excessive population, grinding poverty, rotten infrastructure, atrociously ineffecient services etc. My parent live in a fairly upscale neighborhood of South Delhi and my father is a retired government official. Even then daily life in India is a non-stop battle against heavy odds. One can imagine the situation of an average person in some remote corner of the country. It is time to look at things without tinted eyeglasses.

Re:abu_hal#39

Sigh....temporal you have your work cut out for you. Here is a classic case of distorted education that Dr. Hoodbhoy is talking about. The funny thing is that this individual does not even realize that he his completely bigoted and intolerant. For him all hindus eat cow dung and all westerners are indulging in pre-marital sex. Sheesh, when will people realize that we are all human beings who come to this planet for a few years before getting converted to ash/dust ? If muslims imagine that they are held to some higher standards, all the power to them. However, how does hatred of other people raise the standards for a muslim ?

Ali1 and krashid, I know you guys do not like Indians. But come on, even you guys cannot think that this Abu_hal is a hindu ? I doubt if even the most cunning hindu can write such a response to temporal.

An article by Jochen Hippler in:

“Liberation, Democratization, and Transitions to Statehood in the Third World”,

Proceedings of the Conference Organized by Muwatin, 7-8 November 1997, Ramallah,

edited by May Jayyusi, for Muwatin – The Palestinian Institute for the Study of Democracy, Ramallah,

titled ``Problems of Nation-building and Democracy in Pakistan``

is available at :

http://www.jochen-hippler.de/Aufsatze/Nation-Building_in_Pakistan/nation-building_in_pakistan.html

and may be of interest to people here.

-arun gupta

Re #43

Hamidm: well said! For the first time,I agree with you!

Published Dawn, letter to the ed April 3, 2000

Top priority to education

EDUCATION remains the key to solving the nation`s problems. An uneducated workforce means the country cannot attract foreign investment to set up industries and create jobs. An uneducated voting public means that the masses remain politically immature, unable to hold rulers accountable, and to force their representatives to meaningfully address the issues that affect their well being or to participate as equal citizens in society, and demand rights and social justice.

Democracy thus remains a mirage 52 years after independence. The emancipation of women in rural areas, and their equal participation in society remain an unlikely ideal without both male and female education. Population control also cannot be achieved when the people remain uneducated, under the sway of obscurantism, and superstition. The government must address education policy on a war footing if this nation is to make progress.

An ordinance should be passed making it compulsory for all school going age children to attend school until matric. If underage truants are found employed instead of being in school, there should be stiff mandatory fines on the employers and notices to them to appear in court. These measures will also alleviate underemployment of the adult workforce. Child beggars should be transported by the police and social workers, off the streets, into classrooms. Proper clothing and shelter can be provided to these children with the help of NGOs.

The government`s poverty alleviation programme should only provide resources to those families whose children are enrolled in school, thus eliminating the pretext of economic need for child labour.

The private sector, concerned citizens, and NGOs should be invited to `adopt-a-school.` Wealthy individuals who have made fortunes in running private schools should be encouraged to lend their expertise, management, and engage in directed philanthropy to meet the needs of the government schools, and bring them at par with private schools. School lunches should be provided free of charge.

I suggest the government initially focus its resources on the quality of education being imparted in select government schools on a city-by-city basis. In addition, these model schools should be provided with all furniture, and textbooks required, and the salaries in these schools paid to teachers should be raised. This is where the private sector can help in the aforementioned, suggested, `adopt-a-school` programme. It is better to create some schools that actually work, than dissipate all resources without any impact whatsoever.

Local citizens resident in the area should participate in the schooling of the children, sit at local school boards that monitor the performance of the schools, review their expenditures, and ensure that no more ghost schools or ghost teachers exist. Community participation is vital to ensure that in the long term these school reforms continue.

The curriculum of Madressah schools is a medium term recipe for civil war. It produces individuals who have no marketable skills, and no place in civil society. Hence, we can expect more social upheaval in the future if the government does not create a viable state school system.

The children are our future. They are more important than mindless confrontations with our eastern neighbour, which have sapped the resources of the state, and betrayed the promise of Pakistan`s creation. What is freedom if illiteracy reigns supreme, and the people live hand to mouth? What `ideological frontiers` can justify the diversion of scarce state resources?

In the wake of the Clinton visit, it is time to review Kashmir policy, and find a way to make a permanent peace with India. There is no military solution to the problem. The costs of ignorance, and lack of sustained development in Pakistan, are too high a price for 140 million Pakistanis to pay for just 4 million Kashmiris.

To economists, it`s the classic choice between guns versus butter. Only obscurantists, who thrive on ignorance and whose goal is the progressive, radicalization of the population, benefit from the status quo.

OMAR MIRZA

New York, USA

Education is serious business, it builds not only the capabalities of future generations but the value system as well. Most important in education is of course the School system which takes you from childhood to young men and women. Though I got a degree from college, I was ``educated`` in school.

Competence at school level is the key to higher goals and consequently, achievement. It will take several years to re-write the educational system. While this process is on, my suggestion for workable and quick fix solution - Why not take what is good - the ``A`` and ``O`` levels and make it the national standard. Alternatively, you could study a suitable neighbhouring country`s educational system and directly use their text books for Maths and science for all grades.

The reason why it is better to coloborate with regional countries, is that the instructional language would be easy to follow. And examples in text books would be relevant.

Naturally, this might not be politically popular but other countries have done it before. And there is no reason why it should not work.

Another interesting article by Pervez Hoodbhoy. We indeed need to investment in the education of our future generations. But, no educational system would adequately prepare our children to become better and productive citizens and human being unless we sincerely pledge to reform our society and state institutions through one or more bold visions. In multicultural societies, like Pakistan, a single vision is hard to achieve unless it is limited to a set of universally accepted values only. I argue that: (1) our dominant national discourse is outmoded; and (2) we need to foster an alternative discourse that prioritizes the values of humanity, freedom, justice, and peaceful coexistence. I wonder if we have the courage to slowly and gradually reform our educational system, and our society (both state and civil society), in light of the values of humanity, freedom, justice, and peaceful coexistence. We have tried higher-order leadership with mixed (but generally poor) results, it is now time to recognize that leadership potentially exists at various scales/levels of our society. Are we really serious about the future of our children and, in turn, our nation at-large?

Sincerely, Bilal Ahmad

Ali 1

On Medium of instruction, you wrote English should be choosen over Urdu because higher studies are done in English. I tend to disagree with you.

First as I stated that primary education has a different purpose than higher education.

Primary education should be given in a language which the person can understand (with English as a second language),should be universal and there should be some minimum objectives for passing like

1-Preparing him as a person who can think rationally, can do simple mathematics, write a letter, possibly use a computer and so on and so on. That is act independently.

Higher education should have a different orientation and objectives and be of highest quality.

2- Curriculum and Text books are not synonymous. For a National or regional exam there is by necessity a curriculum, and a person can be allowed to use many resources. One of my senior returning from UK to Pakistan commented that in Pakistan there are only two categories of students, i.e very good or very bad while in UK there is a Gaussian curve. It is due to the fact that in education self study plays most role and imparting of education by institutions is very minimal at best and is oriented to passing exam. Only students who are studious (i.e study day and night all the year round) are very good rest of them are very bad.

Majority of students in higher education don`t go to professional carrier and even much larger majority don`t go to higher education.

I totally agree with you that Dr. Hoodbhoy should concentrate on secular subjects and be directed and leave Islamiat and Pak studies.

Also I agree with your analysis of Abu-Hal.

Re:

Reply #: 29

abu_hal

Please answer this:

Is GOD strong enough to build a stone so heavy tha he cannot lift it himself ?

(Perhaps the answer to this question might open your closed mind to possibilites that perhaps you have not considered till today.)

AD

................who is this Dr. Hoodbhoy? How dare he try and find fault with our cherished educational system which enlightens the chosen elite and keeps the serfs in their place. Who is going to do his dishes and wash his car and hoe his garden and walk his dog if we educate the illiterate masses who, aferall, are God`s chosen people and will,inshallah,claim their just reward in Heaven after this hell on earh.

............ and to think Dr. Hoodbhoy lives in Islamabad ... hasn`t he heard of Froebels where for 5000 a month plus another two in tuitions a five year old can get one heck of an education. ... and what about Beacon House which is a mere four grand per munchkin ... what about City School where an eight year old can get grilled in the life and times of Henry the Eight and cruise the internet for e-toys for a paltry three to four thousand a month.......... has he ever seen the traffic jams outside these schools while drivers ogle Begum Sahibas with Louis Vuton handbags. Dr. Hoodbhoy is such a kill-joy ..... just because he can`t afford to send his kids to the International School ( US$ 500 a pop), he thinks there aren`t any educational opportunities in the seat of our future Khilafat.........Oh, and the reason he gets ``unteachable`` riff-raff in his miserable Physics dept at QU is because the best and the brightest are studying themselves silly at the other U , the real U in the shadow of the Faisal Masjid, where, side by side with eminent scholars from Chad and Djibouti,they memorize the Koran backwards and the Sunnah forwards and study real science, real mathematics and the falsafah of Al-Ghazali.

I just got back from Pakistan and I didn`t see any of the stuff Dr. Hoodbhoy is lamenting about. Pakistan won the Sharjah Cup and even the uneducated roving packs of Afghani urchins at Peshawar Mor celebrated with Chappli Kebabs and Pepsi, singing, `` We don`t need no education, we don`t need no thought control`` ............ Dr. Hoodbhoy is just ``another brick in the wall``.

In reply to #32, Umairr, who wrote about Pakistan`s economic development :

An interesting article on the impact of foreign aid on Pakistan`s development is to be found at

(Lahore Chamber of Commerce ) :

http://www.lcci.org.pk/lcciweb/foreign1.htm

It complements what Umairr wrote. One thing out of many which caught my eye was (in Pakistan) :

Real industrial wages declined during the 1960’s.

-arun gupta

This is my first post on Chowk of any sort... interesting article with some interesting replies posted. This article got me thinking about a study I had done on the determinants of fertility in Pakistan. One of the factors was education, but more importantly it was female education levels. I don`t have numbers readily available (can dig into this later) but what really stood out was the alarmingly high dropout rates for females compared to men. The variance was present with most other educational statistics by gender and I think that all the statistics we read on education become more interesting once you separate them by gender.

I know this isnt directly related to the article but is an intersting point I wanted to mention.

Turab.

Dear D. Hoodbhoy,

A few questions/observations:

Medium of instruction: Since all science subjects in colleges (11th grade onwards) are taught in English, what is the point in teaching science subjects in Urdu at the school level?

Curriculam: I remember that an American textbook was used for teaching F.Sc Biology at least in Punjab in the 80`s. What stops us from using American textbooks for all science subjects FSc ownards? Have you looked at the Calculas textbook for BSc students by SM Yousaf? Even my dog wouldn`t barf on it.

Professional Colleges: Why can`t we have entrance exams for professional colleges. How can 80% score from Sargodha BISE be equal to 80% score from Lahore BISE?

Computer Science: Why are we producing Civil, Chemical and Mechanical Engineers in substantial numbers when the market doesn`t have jobs for them. They end up doing a few programming courses and taking up entry level programmer jobs. Why can`t we convert some of the seats available in above mentioned diciplines to CS?

Finally, I am afraid you will spend too much efforts in fixing the Islamiat/Pak Studies issues (without much success) and might miss out on doing something about science education.

RE: ABU_HAL # 29

Dear Srinivasan/Krishnan/Gopalan/Mohanan/Ramakrishnan whoever: Choose a better (fake) Pakistani name for your next posting, dude.

abu_hal #29:

Do you see the ‘infidel’ agenda in all things that pertain to ameliorate life in Pakistan?

I suspect if this was a paper discussing waste management and garbage disposal in an environmentally friendly way with emphasis on recycling, you would see ‘infidel’ hands in it too.

What is so Islamic about morals? Good moral values are essentially universal in nature.

Whose morality are you talking about?

If you are a Barlevi, you would hate Deobandis. If you are a Wahabi you’d hate all the rest.
If you are a Sunni you would hate Shia. Even Sufism is not left alone. (I hate to do this to you Asif Naqsbandi, but with all your duaa’s and blessings and incantations of His Rehmat on deceased Alims you too have a very narrow parochial outlook.)

We must rid ourselves of this intolerance. This intolerance that is the crazy glue bonding hatred towards everyone else but ‘us’ in the narrowest sense. And, though this INTOLERANCE is not limited to, it is more pronounced in Muslims.

-----You say, “We do not need to emulate the west or the Kafirs on the east.”

On the contrary, if your own value system is skewed, you should follow the matrons of whore houses if you have to, to relearn your own social mores and perhaps moral values. (As was done till the turn of last century by the ‘shrufaa’.)

-----You say, “ We should learn science but UNPROVEN UNGODLY SCIENCE SUCH AS EVOLUTION should not be taught.Gods mystical ways as described by the holy book and as witnessed by the wise should be taught.”

I suppose you and your ilk have an absolute lock on deciding what is ‘ungodly science’ and who is the ‘wise’ one who would decide? Right.!

-----You say, “ Only MEN who are able to understand the plot of the western ways should be allowed to learn those. That too with a sole purpose of defeating them.”

Do I dare think you and your ilk would decide that too?


------You say, “Only emancipation Pakistan can find is in ISLAM.”

For that the first criteria is emancipation of the MIND. Do that and get rid of your excessive hatred and intolerance toward just about everyone.

------You say, “If we forego the way shown to us by the prophet (PBUH) we will perish in darkness.”

In the first instance if you forego the spirit of Allah then it does not matter if you follow Muhammad (saw) or not. You are doomed. And there is a fine difference there.

regards

temporal

Mukallaf #33:

In this article Pervez wrote, ”Pakistan has yet to decide whether it wishes to live in the 21st century of modern education or return to the days of Nizam-ul-Mulk and the madrassa system of the 11th century.”

Perhaps he should have elaborated or chosen different words. Like he did in another article and in a speech recently here in Toronto, where he clearly indicated the deterioration of the Nizamiya Nisab. As you have stated it was remarkably forward thinking for its time and was the precursor of the universities of the West.

As is evident from this quote, again from Britannia: “Madrasahs may have existed as early as the 9th century, but the most famous one was founded in 1057 by the vizier Nizam al-Mulk in Baghdad. The Nizamiyah, devoted to Sunnite learning, served as a model for the establishment of an extensive network of such institutions throughout the eastern Islamic world, especially in Cairo, which had 75 madrasahs, in Damascus, which had 51, and in Aleppo, where the number of madrasahs rose from six to 44 between 1155 and 1260.

Important institutions also developed in the Spanish cities of Córdoba, Seville, Toledo, Granada, Murcia, Almería, Valencia, and Cádiz, in western Islam, under the Umayyads. The madrasahs had no standard curriculum; the founder of each school determined the specific courses that would be taught, but they generally offered instruction in both the religious sciences and the physical sciences.”

The undue orthodox influence (overdue according to the Taliban-sympathetic perspective) of religious sciences begets their narrow outlook and the scorn of the rest of the world.

According to Pervez Hoodbhoy this occurred because of the narrow focusing on religious sciences only. In a way, even though they follow the Nizamiyah Nisaab, as it was envisaged in the eleventh century, they are not truly loyal to even that. And have dropped the equal emphasis on physical sciences (which would have naturally led to other sciences).

regards

temporal

Perhaps this article makes more sense if read as part two of ``Pakistan in the year 3000`` ...