What are they Teaching in Pakistani Schools Today?
Pervez Hoodbhoy April 15, 2000
#33 Posted by jay on April 18, 2000 10:00:34 am
TEMPORAL INTROSPECTION,
It is amusing that some one who followed up my posts with name calling and ended with the unmistakable clarion call of the jihadists, of course embelished in the rooster imagery should resort to introspection to solve the education problem of pakistan. Life is a mystery, I will give it a chance, however temporal the change might be.
It is amusing that some one who followed up my posts with name calling and ended with the unmistakable clarion call of the jihadists, of course embelished in the rooster imagery should resort to introspection to solve the education problem of pakistan. Life is a mystery, I will give it a chance, however temporal the change might be.
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#32 Posted by Mukallaf on April 18, 2000 2:26:15 am
I agree with Dr. Hoodbhoy’s conclusions, but I wanted to set the record straight about “Nizam-ul-Mulk and the madrassa system of the 11th century” referred to by Dr. Hoodbhoy. Nizam al-Mulk (1018-92), a Seljuk vizir of Persian origin, was one of the greatest statesmen of medieval Islamic civilization. According to Encyclopedia Britannica:
“Because of Toghrl Beg`s victory over the Buyids in Baghdad in 1055, the Seljuqs came to be seen as the restorers of Muslim unity under the Sunnite caliphate. While Alp-Arslan and Malik-Shah expanded the empire to the frontier of Egypt, the Seljuq vizier Nizam al-Mulk oversaw the empire`s organization during both their reigns. The Seljuq empire, political as well as religious in character, left a strong legacy to Islam. During the Seljuq period a network of madrasahs (Islamic colleges) was founded, capable of giving uniform training to the state`s administrators and religious scholars.”
Nizam al-Mulk was known as a great patron of the sciences and literature. He was a friend and mentor to al-Ghazali, whom he appointed to take charge of the Nizamiyya madrasah in Baghdad. He was also a patron of the famous poet, mathematician, astronomer, philosopher, and physician Omar al-Khayyam.
The madrasahs established by Nizam al-Mulk provided advanced religious, scientific and philosophical education. These madrasahs were similar to the madrasah universities of North Africa, which the first European universities are thought to have been modeled on. George Makdisi, a leading American scholar of medieval Islam, has extensively documented the common origins of Islamic and Western educational institutions. For example, the methods of teaching by lecture and disputation in the English Inns of Court is thought to have originated in Islamic madrasahs. Intellectually these madrasahs probably have more in common with the Western universities of today than with the robot-factories called madrasahs in Pakistan.
“Because of Toghrl Beg`s victory over the Buyids in Baghdad in 1055, the Seljuqs came to be seen as the restorers of Muslim unity under the Sunnite caliphate. While Alp-Arslan and Malik-Shah expanded the empire to the frontier of Egypt, the Seljuq vizier Nizam al-Mulk oversaw the empire`s organization during both their reigns. The Seljuq empire, political as well as religious in character, left a strong legacy to Islam. During the Seljuq period a network of madrasahs (Islamic colleges) was founded, capable of giving uniform training to the state`s administrators and religious scholars.”
Nizam al-Mulk was known as a great patron of the sciences and literature. He was a friend and mentor to al-Ghazali, whom he appointed to take charge of the Nizamiyya madrasah in Baghdad. He was also a patron of the famous poet, mathematician, astronomer, philosopher, and physician Omar al-Khayyam.
The madrasahs established by Nizam al-Mulk provided advanced religious, scientific and philosophical education. These madrasahs were similar to the madrasah universities of North Africa, which the first European universities are thought to have been modeled on. George Makdisi, a leading American scholar of medieval Islam, has extensively documented the common origins of Islamic and Western educational institutions. For example, the methods of teaching by lecture and disputation in the English Inns of Court is thought to have originated in Islamic madrasahs. Intellectually these madrasahs probably have more in common with the Western universities of today than with the robot-factories called madrasahs in Pakistan.
#31 Posted by sac on April 18, 2000 12:28:15 am
I do agree with most of the conclusions in Dr. Sahib`s article however I think the article muddles up the issue of quality vs. access. The first priority should be on having universal access to education and then we can worry about the quality. Despite the impression to the contrary, the best and the brightest Pakistan has produced are not the product of `O` and `A` levels. They went through the ``mediocre`` system just like anybody else and are still world-class professionals. I used to joke that the first few months in an academic environment in the west is spent ``unlearning`` what one is taught back home and then the real learning begins. What I was missing was the fact that one needs to go through the system to realize how bankrupt it is. The `O` and `A` level crowd as sincere as it is has no idea. Armed with a superiority complex vis-a-vis the ``Urdu-medium`` masses and constantly whining about the hoops they had to jump through to get by Pakistan Studies and Islamiat all they want is their pound of flesh when they go back home. Genius and ability will survive given the least amount of nurturing.
By all means reform the rotten system of education we have but do keep in mind that not all people want(or need) to be philosophers. Give them the basic skills to read and write and then ensure for the brightest amongst them to have access to more specialized forms of education.
By all means reform the rotten system of education we have but do keep in mind that not all people want(or need) to be philosophers. Give them the basic skills to read and write and then ensure for the brightest amongst them to have access to more specialized forms of education.
#30 Posted by Umairr on April 18, 2000 12:28:15 am
satyavadi #22: You have made a much needed observation. I wanted to write something along similar lines. However since I do not like Indians preaching to Pakistanis, I did not think it would be appropriate for me to initiate a reverse preaching session. Coming from an Indian, it will probably be more acceptable to other Indians.
A potential for economic progress may or may not be a good thing. This statement probably seems strange to most people. I say this while looking at the history of Pakistan. I have not seen Pakistan make any progress for as far as back as I can accurately remember (mid-70s onwards). Economically things haven`t changed much, and socially things have regressed. The roads, bridges, schools, mohallas, five star hotels, damns, aircraft, industries etc. seem about the same as they were when I was 10 years old. Nothing new has really been added.
However, the history of Pakistan tells us that when Pakistan came into existence it had nothing in terms of infrastructure; it consisted of the most barren parts of India; both materially and educationally. Even the biggest group of Pakistanis with marketable skills were the ones who migrated from what is now India. Yet we can all see that the Pakistan of today is way ahead of where it was in 1947, in terms of infrastructure, universities, damns, hotels, industries, defence forces etc. etc. If no major improvement was made since the mid-70s, then one can assume that most of the progress occurred between 1947-1970 (I would appreciate compariteve input on outlook of Pakistan`s economic future during the late 60s and now, from Pakistanis who lived through that period. I am going only off research for the times before early 70s).
So in a span of less than 25 years (47-70), Pakistan grew at a rate much higher than its neighboring south asian countries. There are many national and international economists (Omar Noman of Oxford being one) who have stated that Pakistan was at the launching stage of getting out of the third world at that time; a stage that, despite all the potential, India has yet to reach. But Pakistan never took off. It basically reached its peak potential-potential (as you described) by 1970, and then started declining. Infact, some of the most traumatic events of the Pakistani history occured around the time when Pakistan was, ``potentially`` as wealthy as it has ever been. Firstly, East Pakistan broke off from West Pakistan. And then, with one stroke of the nationalisation pen, Pakistan`s economic future was sent to the gallows (I heard Omar Noman call this nationalization the most harmful event in the history of Pakistan; i agree).
The simple analysis would be to blame it all on Bhutto. One could say that he ruined the potential of the Pakistani economy (this is partially true, but not completely true). A detailed analysis might bring out certain different aspects; many of which you seem to have mentioned in regard to the current situation in India.
The progress of poor countries depends not only on economic progress and potential; it depends on social progress, as well. If half the people become wealthy, and the other half remains where they are, the country on average has progressed; however practically it may have potentially regressed.
This is exactly the situation Pakistan was in around 60s-1970. The rich were potentially getting richer. The middle class and upper middle class was potentially doing quite well. People with B.A degrees from Pakistan could get pretty good jobs, which is not the case anymore. Industries were in private hands, and many picked Pakistan as a potential economic success story. Unfortunately, a big portion of the population was not part of this economic ride. The more the poor saw the rich getting richer, the more frustrated they became (even though they themselves may not have been getting any poorer).
Added to this were the ethnic lines on which the economic progress was taking place. Due to this unequal distribution, East Pakistanis felt that they were not getting their fair share of the pie, and demanded their own country. In West Pakistan, the, ``poor half`` being envious and angry at the, ``rich half`` demanded equality, and ownership. This resulted in complete nationalisation. Instead of formulating a middle ground on economic policies, the pendulum went from one economic extreme of privatisation to the other of nationalisation.
In a sense, Pakistan may have been better off had it achieved very slow and steady economic growth, which took along the whole population, rather than a quick rate of growth which took along only the top half. It is very important in every potentially successful economic scenario that no ethnic, religious of social group of the society is left behind when economic progress takes place. Otherwise, the initial euphoria may result in a group of frustrated, ``have nots.`` If these have nots happen to belong primarily to one religion or one ethnicity, then situation becomes a ticking time bomb. And that is too big a price to pay for half the population`s economic progress.
For poor countries, economic progress with wide ranging social cohesion is a recipe out of the third world. Economic progress accompanied by widening social incohesion is a bubble waiting to burst.
A potential for economic progress may or may not be a good thing. This statement probably seems strange to most people. I say this while looking at the history of Pakistan. I have not seen Pakistan make any progress for as far as back as I can accurately remember (mid-70s onwards). Economically things haven`t changed much, and socially things have regressed. The roads, bridges, schools, mohallas, five star hotels, damns, aircraft, industries etc. seem about the same as they were when I was 10 years old. Nothing new has really been added.
However, the history of Pakistan tells us that when Pakistan came into existence it had nothing in terms of infrastructure; it consisted of the most barren parts of India; both materially and educationally. Even the biggest group of Pakistanis with marketable skills were the ones who migrated from what is now India. Yet we can all see that the Pakistan of today is way ahead of where it was in 1947, in terms of infrastructure, universities, damns, hotels, industries, defence forces etc. etc. If no major improvement was made since the mid-70s, then one can assume that most of the progress occurred between 1947-1970 (I would appreciate compariteve input on outlook of Pakistan`s economic future during the late 60s and now, from Pakistanis who lived through that period. I am going only off research for the times before early 70s).
So in a span of less than 25 years (47-70), Pakistan grew at a rate much higher than its neighboring south asian countries. There are many national and international economists (Omar Noman of Oxford being one) who have stated that Pakistan was at the launching stage of getting out of the third world at that time; a stage that, despite all the potential, India has yet to reach. But Pakistan never took off. It basically reached its peak potential-potential (as you described) by 1970, and then started declining. Infact, some of the most traumatic events of the Pakistani history occured around the time when Pakistan was, ``potentially`` as wealthy as it has ever been. Firstly, East Pakistan broke off from West Pakistan. And then, with one stroke of the nationalisation pen, Pakistan`s economic future was sent to the gallows (I heard Omar Noman call this nationalization the most harmful event in the history of Pakistan; i agree).
The simple analysis would be to blame it all on Bhutto. One could say that he ruined the potential of the Pakistani economy (this is partially true, but not completely true). A detailed analysis might bring out certain different aspects; many of which you seem to have mentioned in regard to the current situation in India.
The progress of poor countries depends not only on economic progress and potential; it depends on social progress, as well. If half the people become wealthy, and the other half remains where they are, the country on average has progressed; however practically it may have potentially regressed.
This is exactly the situation Pakistan was in around 60s-1970. The rich were potentially getting richer. The middle class and upper middle class was potentially doing quite well. People with B.A degrees from Pakistan could get pretty good jobs, which is not the case anymore. Industries were in private hands, and many picked Pakistan as a potential economic success story. Unfortunately, a big portion of the population was not part of this economic ride. The more the poor saw the rich getting richer, the more frustrated they became (even though they themselves may not have been getting any poorer).
Added to this were the ethnic lines on which the economic progress was taking place. Due to this unequal distribution, East Pakistanis felt that they were not getting their fair share of the pie, and demanded their own country. In West Pakistan, the, ``poor half`` being envious and angry at the, ``rich half`` demanded equality, and ownership. This resulted in complete nationalisation. Instead of formulating a middle ground on economic policies, the pendulum went from one economic extreme of privatisation to the other of nationalisation.
In a sense, Pakistan may have been better off had it achieved very slow and steady economic growth, which took along the whole population, rather than a quick rate of growth which took along only the top half. It is very important in every potentially successful economic scenario that no ethnic, religious of social group of the society is left behind when economic progress takes place. Otherwise, the initial euphoria may result in a group of frustrated, ``have nots.`` If these have nots happen to belong primarily to one religion or one ethnicity, then situation becomes a ticking time bomb. And that is too big a price to pay for half the population`s economic progress.
For poor countries, economic progress with wide ranging social cohesion is a recipe out of the third world. Economic progress accompanied by widening social incohesion is a bubble waiting to burst.
#29 Posted by macgupta on April 18, 2000 12:28:15 am
Here are some statistics on Pakistan from the UN Human Development report, 1999. Sri Lanka is probably the best-in-class in South Asia, and any comparisons should be made with it.
The report is available at http://www.undp.org/hdro/report.html
Pakistan :
Adult literacy 49% (1997)
Net enrolment ratio as %age of relevant age group : primary & secondary : (1997) : data not available.
Tertiary science enrolment ( as %age of total tertiary enrolment ) : (1995) : data not available
R&D scientists and technicians per 1000 people : 1990-96 : 0.1
Children not reaching grade 5, percentage (1992-95) : data not available
Public education expenditure :
As %age of GNP : 1993-96 : 3.0
As %age of total govt. expenditure : 1993-96 : 8.1
Primary & secondary, as %age of all levels : 1993-96 : 77.3
Higher, as %age of all levels : 1993-96 : 13.2
Public expenditure as percentage of GNP :
Education : 1985 : 2.5
Education : 1996 : 3.0
Military : 1988 : 6.5
Military : 1996 : 5.6
Female adult literacy : 1997 : 25.4%
Index (1985 ... 100 ) : 1997 ... 151
As percentage of male rate : 46%
Data on female primary enrolment, secondary enrolment, tertiary enrolment : not available.
----
-arun gupta
The report is available at http://www.undp.org/hdro/report.html
Pakistan :
Adult literacy 49% (1997)
Net enrolment ratio as %age of relevant age group : primary & secondary : (1997) : data not available.
Tertiary science enrolment ( as %age of total tertiary enrolment ) : (1995) : data not available
R&D scientists and technicians per 1000 people : 1990-96 : 0.1
Children not reaching grade 5, percentage (1992-95) : data not available
Public education expenditure :
As %age of GNP : 1993-96 : 3.0
As %age of total govt. expenditure : 1993-96 : 8.1
Primary & secondary, as %age of all levels : 1993-96 : 77.3
Higher, as %age of all levels : 1993-96 : 13.2
Public expenditure as percentage of GNP :
Education : 1985 : 2.5
Education : 1996 : 3.0
Military : 1988 : 6.5
Military : 1996 : 5.6
Female adult literacy : 1997 : 25.4%
Index (1985 ... 100 ) : 1997 ... 151
As percentage of male rate : 46%
Data on female primary enrolment, secondary enrolment, tertiary enrolment : not available.
----
-arun gupta
#27 Posted by taimurmalik on April 18, 2000 12:28:15 am
Kudos to Dr.Hoodboy for once again raising an issue which requires much disscussion and even more action.
As a society given to rituals and timelessness,Pakistan is not naturaly inclined to energize thoughtful analysis.A certain ad-hocism has defined the collective mentality of a people accustomed to letting events shape their destiny.Pakistanis have readily accepted and adapted to change but have shown a curious reluctance to replace inertia with initiative for change.Instinctively,the country has preffered tradition and habit to radicalism.It isn`t conservatism.Intellectual laziness would rather be a better description.
The problem isn`t one of desire.There are enough Pakistanis who are angry,frustrated and impatient with the present.But unstructured exasperation has its limits and is mere sound and fury.Needed are ideas that focus the mind on the direction of change and generate the will to affect them.Without ideas,the yearning for improvement is easily hijacked by slogan shouting charlatans.
As a recent A`Level graduate,with a prior traumatic experience of having been to a government college for a few months,I can better relate to Dr.Hoodboy`s fears and anxiousness to revamp the current educational system.Though I think that the situation is far more worse and requires practical action from all levels of our society,bureaucracy and government.
Regards,
Taimur Altaf Malik.
As a society given to rituals and timelessness,Pakistan is not naturaly inclined to energize thoughtful analysis.A certain ad-hocism has defined the collective mentality of a people accustomed to letting events shape their destiny.Pakistanis have readily accepted and adapted to change but have shown a curious reluctance to replace inertia with initiative for change.Instinctively,the country has preffered tradition and habit to radicalism.It isn`t conservatism.Intellectual laziness would rather be a better description.
The problem isn`t one of desire.There are enough Pakistanis who are angry,frustrated and impatient with the present.But unstructured exasperation has its limits and is mere sound and fury.Needed are ideas that focus the mind on the direction of change and generate the will to affect them.Without ideas,the yearning for improvement is easily hijacked by slogan shouting charlatans.
As a recent A`Level graduate,with a prior traumatic experience of having been to a government college for a few months,I can better relate to Dr.Hoodboy`s fears and anxiousness to revamp the current educational system.Though I think that the situation is far more worse and requires practical action from all levels of our society,bureaucracy and government.
Regards,
Taimur Altaf Malik.
#26 Posted by taimurmalik on April 18, 2000 12:28:15 am
Kudos to Dr.Hoodboy for once again arising an issue which requires much disscussion and even more action.
As a society given to rituals and timelessness,Pakistan is not naturaly inclined to introspection.A certain ad-hocism has defined the collective mentality of a people accustomed to letting events shape their destiny.Pakistanis have readily accepted and adapted to change but have shown a curious reluctance to initiate it.Instinctively,the country has preffered tradition and habit to radicalism.It isn`t conservatism.Intellectual laziness would rather be a better description.
The problem isn`t one of desire.There are enough Pakistanis who are angry,frustrated and impatient with the present.But unstructured exasperation has its limits.Needed are ideas that focus the mind on the direction of change and generate the will to affect them.Without ideas,the yearning for improvement is easily hijacked by slogan shouting charlatans.
As a recent A`Level graduate,with a prior traumatic experience of having been to a government college for a few months,I can better relate to Dr.Hoodboy`s fears and anxiousness to revamp the current educational system.Though I think that the situation is far more worse and requires practical action from all levels of our society,bureacracy and government.
Regards,
Taimur Altaf Malik.
As a society given to rituals and timelessness,Pakistan is not naturaly inclined to introspection.A certain ad-hocism has defined the collective mentality of a people accustomed to letting events shape their destiny.Pakistanis have readily accepted and adapted to change but have shown a curious reluctance to initiate it.Instinctively,the country has preffered tradition and habit to radicalism.It isn`t conservatism.Intellectual laziness would rather be a better description.
The problem isn`t one of desire.There are enough Pakistanis who are angry,frustrated and impatient with the present.But unstructured exasperation has its limits.Needed are ideas that focus the mind on the direction of change and generate the will to affect them.Without ideas,the yearning for improvement is easily hijacked by slogan shouting charlatans.
As a recent A`Level graduate,with a prior traumatic experience of having been to a government college for a few months,I can better relate to Dr.Hoodboy`s fears and anxiousness to revamp the current educational system.Though I think that the situation is far more worse and requires practical action from all levels of our society,bureacracy and government.
Regards,
Taimur Altaf Malik.
#25 Posted by mohajir on April 18, 2000 12:28:15 am
India, Shed the obsession with Pakistan
http://www.naradonline.com/n-news/dispcomment.php3?ID=140
India is back to making Pakistan the sole focus of its foreign policy - By T.K. Arun
http://www.naradonline.com/
http://www.naradonline.com/n-news/dispcomment.php3?ID=140
India is back to making Pakistan the sole focus of its foreign policy - By T.K. Arun
http://www.naradonline.com/
#24 Posted by temporal on April 17, 2000 10:17:05 am
TO MY INDIAN FRIENDS
Please allow us some room for introspection.
(Satyavadi #22: Well intentioned as your digressions are, please not now, not here.
friend #13: and cheraym #17 thank you.)
regards,
t
Please allow us some room for introspection.
(Satyavadi #22: Well intentioned as your digressions are, please not now, not here.
friend #13: and cheraym #17 thank you.)
regards,
t
#23 Posted by Mohammad Naeem on April 17, 2000 9:22:23 am
A really great article by Dr. Pervez Hoodbhoy about school education in Pakistan. I think the situation is even worst than what Dr. Sahib depicted in his article. Our youth is constantnly being deprived of intellectual development through the self-delusion of a handful of individuals that have a self-image of the only blessed creature in God`s universe. They are stuffing young minds with an extremely virulent propagana and consequently our young adopt extreme world-views detrimental to everything that is important be that themselves, the nation, the country or the humanity. As a citizen of this country I have every right for my children to have balanced, broad, and objective world view and for that they must be taught objective and real history be that of Indo-Pak, Islam, or the humanity. I would never give up my right.
#22 Posted by satyavadi on April 17, 2000 9:22:23 am
All Indians, please try to go thru this and try to respond if you can:: Pakistanis and others are also more than welcome to comment:
One thing that comes out of articles such as these is that present day Pakistan is going through a major churning process, which accompanied by serious self-criticism and introspection. On the whole it seems, like a positive development.
I as an Indian find the contrast in the scenarios between India and Pakistan quite interesting - slightly disturbing too. The prevailing mood in contemporary middle-class and upper-class India seems to be of unqualified euphoria, which is not necessarily a bad thing. Optimism and self-confidence are the name of the game these days in India. But sometimes it seems, that the optimism is starting to border in to complacency and self-confidence into misplaced overconfidence. While the prospects for India`s future seem quite good, the present situation doesnot allow the luxury of smug satisfaction on part of Indians. The much hyped IT revolution is yet to happen, its just the potential that is apparent now, and even when it will happen, it will probably keep more than 70% of the population out of it. So are the supposed potential of this field and the expectations of foreign investments creating more employment, good enough to lift the morass that 40% of our people find themselves in?
Many of the problems described by Dr. Hoodbhoy`s article regarding education are very much there in India, maybe on a lesser scale. Are we seriously considering them? Are we as a nation focused on literacy? An International Business School or something of the sort in Hyderabad is good- no doubt, it will get a few more of my talented brothers and sisters salaries starting with 120K, like many IIMites do, but should we just focus on such institutions? IITs are a great asset, but will we keep putting money in higher education at the cost of primary education?
I used to pay around 100 bucks per MONTH in primary school, 300 per YEAR for secondary and higher secondary school- because the govt subsidizes even privately managed high schools-- and an incredibly low 1000 per YEAR for my engineering in the best institution of my state. And all of those figures are in Rupees. Is the govt subsidizing people like me at the expense of the poorer folks? Can you find a better example of misplaced inappropriate spending?
Higher education is great but will we also not consider improving the state of primary education in India?
Is the government or anyone in India talking about literacy these days? All the influential people hardly get anytime from bragging about the IT revolution- which is hard to see, if you dont belong to the IT cabal or happen to know someone who does, and 85% of India doesnt belong.
The influential elite hardly talks about anything but itself. It almost seems, like we have decided to feel good about ourselves in everything. So no longer do we see newspapers raising issues such as literacy, or healthcare on their front pages. Some Yukta Mookhey becoming Miss World, occupied half the front page on one day, and on some other day it is some trader who suddenly became ``das kardopati`` because Azim Premji`s Wipro skyrocketed in the BSE. I wonder whats the big deal if someone became ``das karodpati``- there are several thousands of them in India, and how would it make any difference whatsoever to anyone. While Wipro breaking new records is certainly newsworthy, the same cannot to be said about this particular trader and his accountant whom he fired ( and this was duly reported by the TOI), because he failed to alert him about Wipro before time.
To cut a long story short - its all feel good. I am sure Chelsea Clinton had not gotten as much attention in the US in the eight years as the First Daughter as she got in the five days Clinton was in India. ``Chelsea played Holi in Jodhpur palace but only the Prince applied color on her face`` such and other pathetic reporting in Times of India and other newspapers, almost atleast for that moment, reduces them to the tabloid level.
But they will write it, because the elite wants to feel good- to sweep all that is bad under the carpet - lest Buddha-like they be moved by all the misery that surrounds them, though I hardly think its possible.
Well, the point I am trying to make by all this rambling is only one: We seem to be getting somewhere with liberalization, we have reached the stage where people have started recognizing our potential - i would call it ``potential potential``, but we are far away from being even another Sri-Lanka- its internal strife notwithstanding,- as far primary education and health care go.
The govt says India is 52% literate- so still even officials acknowledge that 48% are angutha-chhaap. What are the politicians doing about it? Nothing. Whats the target for becoming 100% literate--- No one knows, no one talks.
How many people donot have basic sanitation-- atleast 30%.. Whats the govt doing-- nothing, atleast nothing that is apparent. How many people donot get drinking water-- again atleast 30%. Whats the govt doing- maybe something at a pace which will take another 50years for everyone to get clean drinking water. Is Chandrababu Naidu also aiming to provide clean water to all the villages in AP, along with his dream Cyberabad?
Will the elite--educational, financial, political, social- a group that most of us here fall into, evaluate him only on how much investment he got to AP and how many Yankee firms there are in the Hi-Tec city, or will we also ask him what he did for the poor, for the rural people ? Will we or wont we-- maybe we will not--for the obvious reason, that it doesnt affect us.
Now I know I am being very preachy here. But my motive is to ask you guys-- very knowledgeable fellow Indians here-- what is it that we are doing about all this? Yes, I know about AID and ASHA and all those good orginazations funded and managed by NRIs, they are doing commendable work. But whatever they are doing is no where close to the enormity of the effort that we need to put in. And that is not going to happen, unless it changes at the policy level, unless the govts of the day in all States and the Center feel that they along with keeping the BSE sensex fairly high and floating, they also need to show something in the social sector. Abandoning the socialist model of economy doesnt mean abandoning social causes. The socialist economic model is gone, and thats good, since it didnt achieve much in any field- not even in the social sector that its purported to serve- and instead caused only economic stagnation and at best sluggishness.
Seems like the controlled liberalization model being followed today, could produce results. But isnt there space within this model for social priorities ? Isnt there a need for the govt to develop a new paradigm which would incorporate and prioritize social welfare of the rural and the poor, along with the the finances of the economically mobile middle and upper middle and upper classes ? Arent the wellbeing of all these groups inextricably linked to each other?
Are we as part of the elite (and lets not pretend we are not) doing anything to nudge the govts and the politicians to think on those lines -- or are we just too concerned about ourselves ?
Its wonderful to contribute time and money to Asha and AID and other such organizations, but as long the policy doesnt change-- not for the rhetoric, its already there and has always been--- the priorities of the politicians donot change-- nothing is going to improve substantially. Will we do something to bring about this change? No matter how much we sing paeans to the intelligence of the poor Indian voter, he is constrained by several factors including his survivial problems, lack of means, resources, time and yes also intellect (no I am not being arrogant and insensitive here--just stating the facts rather plainly) to influence policy matters, despite his tremendous voting power.
Its the educational, financial and social elite, who have the real power to influence any democratic govt`s policy, more than any villager or slum dweller, who would rather concentrate on getting a small handpump in his village or the slum than demand that with the handpump he also be given, sanitation, a hospital that has doctors and a primary schools that teaches.
But the Indian elite is euphoric and complacent and indifferent. Pakistan is definitely in turmoil but its elite does seem to be doing some introspection-- the articles in Chowk and Dawn and Jang bear testimony to that fact.. Are we doing any introspection-- for once taking cue from Pakistan? Or shall we wait until we are in turmoil? Maybe we are sure, that we(not all Indians- but a group of Indians) are never going to be in turmoil.
Satyavadi
One thing that comes out of articles such as these is that present day Pakistan is going through a major churning process, which accompanied by serious self-criticism and introspection. On the whole it seems, like a positive development.
I as an Indian find the contrast in the scenarios between India and Pakistan quite interesting - slightly disturbing too. The prevailing mood in contemporary middle-class and upper-class India seems to be of unqualified euphoria, which is not necessarily a bad thing. Optimism and self-confidence are the name of the game these days in India. But sometimes it seems, that the optimism is starting to border in to complacency and self-confidence into misplaced overconfidence. While the prospects for India`s future seem quite good, the present situation doesnot allow the luxury of smug satisfaction on part of Indians. The much hyped IT revolution is yet to happen, its just the potential that is apparent now, and even when it will happen, it will probably keep more than 70% of the population out of it. So are the supposed potential of this field and the expectations of foreign investments creating more employment, good enough to lift the morass that 40% of our people find themselves in?
Many of the problems described by Dr. Hoodbhoy`s article regarding education are very much there in India, maybe on a lesser scale. Are we seriously considering them? Are we as a nation focused on literacy? An International Business School or something of the sort in Hyderabad is good- no doubt, it will get a few more of my talented brothers and sisters salaries starting with 120K, like many IIMites do, but should we just focus on such institutions? IITs are a great asset, but will we keep putting money in higher education at the cost of primary education?
I used to pay around 100 bucks per MONTH in primary school, 300 per YEAR for secondary and higher secondary school- because the govt subsidizes even privately managed high schools-- and an incredibly low 1000 per YEAR for my engineering in the best institution of my state. And all of those figures are in Rupees. Is the govt subsidizing people like me at the expense of the poorer folks? Can you find a better example of misplaced inappropriate spending?
Higher education is great but will we also not consider improving the state of primary education in India?
Is the government or anyone in India talking about literacy these days? All the influential people hardly get anytime from bragging about the IT revolution- which is hard to see, if you dont belong to the IT cabal or happen to know someone who does, and 85% of India doesnt belong.
The influential elite hardly talks about anything but itself. It almost seems, like we have decided to feel good about ourselves in everything. So no longer do we see newspapers raising issues such as literacy, or healthcare on their front pages. Some Yukta Mookhey becoming Miss World, occupied half the front page on one day, and on some other day it is some trader who suddenly became ``das kardopati`` because Azim Premji`s Wipro skyrocketed in the BSE. I wonder whats the big deal if someone became ``das karodpati``- there are several thousands of them in India, and how would it make any difference whatsoever to anyone. While Wipro breaking new records is certainly newsworthy, the same cannot to be said about this particular trader and his accountant whom he fired ( and this was duly reported by the TOI), because he failed to alert him about Wipro before time.
To cut a long story short - its all feel good. I am sure Chelsea Clinton had not gotten as much attention in the US in the eight years as the First Daughter as she got in the five days Clinton was in India. ``Chelsea played Holi in Jodhpur palace but only the Prince applied color on her face`` such and other pathetic reporting in Times of India and other newspapers, almost atleast for that moment, reduces them to the tabloid level.
But they will write it, because the elite wants to feel good- to sweep all that is bad under the carpet - lest Buddha-like they be moved by all the misery that surrounds them, though I hardly think its possible.
Well, the point I am trying to make by all this rambling is only one: We seem to be getting somewhere with liberalization, we have reached the stage where people have started recognizing our potential - i would call it ``potential potential``, but we are far away from being even another Sri-Lanka- its internal strife notwithstanding,- as far primary education and health care go.
The govt says India is 52% literate- so still even officials acknowledge that 48% are angutha-chhaap. What are the politicians doing about it? Nothing. Whats the target for becoming 100% literate--- No one knows, no one talks.
How many people donot have basic sanitation-- atleast 30%.. Whats the govt doing-- nothing, atleast nothing that is apparent. How many people donot get drinking water-- again atleast 30%. Whats the govt doing- maybe something at a pace which will take another 50years for everyone to get clean drinking water. Is Chandrababu Naidu also aiming to provide clean water to all the villages in AP, along with his dream Cyberabad?
Will the elite--educational, financial, political, social- a group that most of us here fall into, evaluate him only on how much investment he got to AP and how many Yankee firms there are in the Hi-Tec city, or will we also ask him what he did for the poor, for the rural people ? Will we or wont we-- maybe we will not--for the obvious reason, that it doesnt affect us.
Now I know I am being very preachy here. But my motive is to ask you guys-- very knowledgeable fellow Indians here-- what is it that we are doing about all this? Yes, I know about AID and ASHA and all those good orginazations funded and managed by NRIs, they are doing commendable work. But whatever they are doing is no where close to the enormity of the effort that we need to put in. And that is not going to happen, unless it changes at the policy level, unless the govts of the day in all States and the Center feel that they along with keeping the BSE sensex fairly high and floating, they also need to show something in the social sector. Abandoning the socialist model of economy doesnt mean abandoning social causes. The socialist economic model is gone, and thats good, since it didnt achieve much in any field- not even in the social sector that its purported to serve- and instead caused only economic stagnation and at best sluggishness.
Seems like the controlled liberalization model being followed today, could produce results. But isnt there space within this model for social priorities ? Isnt there a need for the govt to develop a new paradigm which would incorporate and prioritize social welfare of the rural and the poor, along with the the finances of the economically mobile middle and upper middle and upper classes ? Arent the wellbeing of all these groups inextricably linked to each other?
Are we as part of the elite (and lets not pretend we are not) doing anything to nudge the govts and the politicians to think on those lines -- or are we just too concerned about ourselves ?
Its wonderful to contribute time and money to Asha and AID and other such organizations, but as long the policy doesnt change-- not for the rhetoric, its already there and has always been--- the priorities of the politicians donot change-- nothing is going to improve substantially. Will we do something to bring about this change? No matter how much we sing paeans to the intelligence of the poor Indian voter, he is constrained by several factors including his survivial problems, lack of means, resources, time and yes also intellect (no I am not being arrogant and insensitive here--just stating the facts rather plainly) to influence policy matters, despite his tremendous voting power.
Its the educational, financial and social elite, who have the real power to influence any democratic govt`s policy, more than any villager or slum dweller, who would rather concentrate on getting a small handpump in his village or the slum than demand that with the handpump he also be given, sanitation, a hospital that has doctors and a primary schools that teaches.
But the Indian elite is euphoric and complacent and indifferent. Pakistan is definitely in turmoil but its elite does seem to be doing some introspection-- the articles in Chowk and Dawn and Jang bear testimony to that fact.. Are we doing any introspection-- for once taking cue from Pakistan? Or shall we wait until we are in turmoil? Maybe we are sure, that we(not all Indians- but a group of Indians) are never going to be in turmoil.
Satyavadi
#21 Posted by Umairr on April 17, 2000 2:03:37 am
Pervez: You stated, ``Compared to Bangladesh and India, we spend 2.5 and 4 times more per schoolchild respectively but end up with demonstrably poorer results.``
I had always heard that Pakistan spends far less on education than any other countries in South Asia. Could you explain how Pakistan is able to spend 2.5 and 4.0 more per schoolchild than other South Asian nations. Is it because the percentage of school going children in Pakistan is less than other countries? And why exactly are the results poorer?
I had always heard that Pakistan spends far less on education than any other countries in South Asia. Could you explain how Pakistan is able to spend 2.5 and 4.0 more per schoolchild than other South Asian nations. Is it because the percentage of school going children in Pakistan is less than other countries? And why exactly are the results poorer?
#20 Posted by krashid on April 17, 2000 2:03:37 am
Prof Hoodbhoy.
You have to divide education into basic (primary and secondary) and higher education for they have entirely different aims and priorities.
As I understand this regarding American system. It is two tiered.Upto high school, which prepares a child to be a ``Useful`` citizen. And higher education, which are great institutions of learning and is pursued by those who are interested.
The main purpose of our higher education is to give a degree for economic benefit of the person earning the degree.(that is why cheating etc)
Although, you said patriotism of CW as not allowing A and O level of Pakistan. But it can also be seen in the form of delivering education according to class character.
What should be the role of Government in this?
Either education should be homogenous or heterogenous?
At the level of primary and secondary education, first thing I think is a universal education. And for it we can utilize all resources, like from private institution to Government schools to Maddressah (and it should be mandated to provide this education at basic level for their registration).
Also primary and secondary education should be given in Urdu or Local language with English as a second language so that people at least comprehend what they are studying even though all of them will not fare good in exams.
All the schools should have to abide by the curriculum and language requirement. (If somebody already has resources he/she can put extra effort or school itself can produce extra effort to become competitive with American standard).
My premise is this. With your system of multi type system of education, it will further aggravate the class system of education and will put vast majority of children of our country at disadvantage.
I have to give it more thought,how to provide the benefit of quality education to majority of people but the primary aim of education should be universal and minimum standard (which can be put at high level) at the level of primary and secondary level.
As far as curriculum is concerned, it has to take many factors in account. I think apart from Pak studies or history which needs to be taught with some objectives in mind and with objectivity, and Islamiat all the other subjects should have a secular approach even at primary and secondary level, this will not only be in keeping with your objective but will also be reflective of our aspirations.
Text books or Curriculum can be standardized also at national provincial or regional level. Or at all three levels. Like in secular subjects like maths, Physics, Chemistry, Biology etc should have a National Text Book or Curriculum (So that a person or school can use many text books). Non secular subjects can have a provincial or regional standard which should be regulated by some National standard.
As far as Examination is concerned, I think it should be held at District or some other level at the level of 5,8,9,10,11 and 12 level and should be made as fair as possible. It will not only judge the performance of students, but also of schools imparting education.
Your approach of using University level educators in forming curriculum at Secondary level (9-10) and Higher secondary (11-12) level is highly appreciative and will be reflective also of the standard of Education at University level.
Teacher training is also very important.
So my points are:
1- The aim should be a Universal Education and trying to involve not only all kinds of institutions for this purpose, but to give incentive for this.
2- The medium of education should be Urdu or regional language for every one without any exception and should be a requirement for registration.
3- There should be a minimum curriculum set up and its exam held at national or regional level at frequent intervals. (In this connection, a school or institution should be mandated to provide two or three extra subjects in each class depending upon the local circumstances. Like a scool in village teaching handicraft for women or agricultural related or other broad subjects like computer etc depending upon the regional requirements or a Maddressah teaching Islam etc)
So a minimum standard should be set.
4-Exam should have a certain minimum standards for passing and should be combination of subjective and objective type. It should be at all costs fair and every method should be applied to make sure.
In short the purpose of Primary education should be a quality universal education with certain minimum standards.
This should be coordinated but should be seperate from higher education, whose purpose should be to provide quality education of highest standard to persons who want to pursue further education.
You have to divide education into basic (primary and secondary) and higher education for they have entirely different aims and priorities.
As I understand this regarding American system. It is two tiered.Upto high school, which prepares a child to be a ``Useful`` citizen. And higher education, which are great institutions of learning and is pursued by those who are interested.
The main purpose of our higher education is to give a degree for economic benefit of the person earning the degree.(that is why cheating etc)
Although, you said patriotism of CW as not allowing A and O level of Pakistan. But it can also be seen in the form of delivering education according to class character.
What should be the role of Government in this?
Either education should be homogenous or heterogenous?
At the level of primary and secondary education, first thing I think is a universal education. And for it we can utilize all resources, like from private institution to Government schools to Maddressah (and it should be mandated to provide this education at basic level for their registration).
Also primary and secondary education should be given in Urdu or Local language with English as a second language so that people at least comprehend what they are studying even though all of them will not fare good in exams.
All the schools should have to abide by the curriculum and language requirement. (If somebody already has resources he/she can put extra effort or school itself can produce extra effort to become competitive with American standard).
My premise is this. With your system of multi type system of education, it will further aggravate the class system of education and will put vast majority of children of our country at disadvantage.
I have to give it more thought,how to provide the benefit of quality education to majority of people but the primary aim of education should be universal and minimum standard (which can be put at high level) at the level of primary and secondary level.
As far as curriculum is concerned, it has to take many factors in account. I think apart from Pak studies or history which needs to be taught with some objectives in mind and with objectivity, and Islamiat all the other subjects should have a secular approach even at primary and secondary level, this will not only be in keeping with your objective but will also be reflective of our aspirations.
Text books or Curriculum can be standardized also at national provincial or regional level. Or at all three levels. Like in secular subjects like maths, Physics, Chemistry, Biology etc should have a National Text Book or Curriculum (So that a person or school can use many text books). Non secular subjects can have a provincial or regional standard which should be regulated by some National standard.
As far as Examination is concerned, I think it should be held at District or some other level at the level of 5,8,9,10,11 and 12 level and should be made as fair as possible. It will not only judge the performance of students, but also of schools imparting education.
Your approach of using University level educators in forming curriculum at Secondary level (9-10) and Higher secondary (11-12) level is highly appreciative and will be reflective also of the standard of Education at University level.
Teacher training is also very important.
So my points are:
1- The aim should be a Universal Education and trying to involve not only all kinds of institutions for this purpose, but to give incentive for this.
2- The medium of education should be Urdu or regional language for every one without any exception and should be a requirement for registration.
3- There should be a minimum curriculum set up and its exam held at national or regional level at frequent intervals. (In this connection, a school or institution should be mandated to provide two or three extra subjects in each class depending upon the local circumstances. Like a scool in village teaching handicraft for women or agricultural related or other broad subjects like computer etc depending upon the regional requirements or a Maddressah teaching Islam etc)
So a minimum standard should be set.
4-Exam should have a certain minimum standards for passing and should be combination of subjective and objective type. It should be at all costs fair and every method should be applied to make sure.
In short the purpose of Primary education should be a quality universal education with certain minimum standards.
This should be coordinated but should be seperate from higher education, whose purpose should be to provide quality education of highest standard to persons who want to pursue further education.
#19 Posted by Moez on April 17, 2000 12:51:20 am
Dr. Hoodbhoy, another of your great article, as always you have presented the
true face of Pakistan very eloquently, meanwhile I was enjoying another of your
great writing, your convincing book ``Islam & Science, Religious Orthodoxy and
the battle for Rationality``. It`s been always a privilege to have access to your
writing (which are always to the point and unbiased).
Your assessment of the current Pakistan`s Education crisis is on bull`s eye.
What we as a nation are producing, mindless ROBOTs, who are constantly fed
government propaganda. No wonder Pakistani students lack the analytical and
intelligent reasoning! The Govt. should invest heavily in its future, that is its
children, but in our case our priorities are foolishly misplaced.
Pick up the any curriculum and one will notice the confuse state, from the
beginning children are pounded with different and difficult languages. You rightly
said they have to learn sometimes 3 or 4 languages and they ended up
proficient in non. The sad factor is that even after passing the Matric it is not
uncommon to find a student unable to write a simple English letter or able to
comprehend Daily English newspapers.
Rote learning is ENCOURAGEd, where as questioning or discussing interesting
topics are inhibited. I remember in my 9th grade class, fascinated by Space
(thanks to PTV by showing Carl Sagan`s COSMOS), I inquire about a question
to my Physics teacher, but being told not to ask questions outside the Physics
class, what he meant was dont ask question out of the govt. prescribed book
(maybe he was not competent enough to answer those inquiries out of state
book.
Curiosity is a part of human nature, asking question, why this happen, how this
happen...etc. is embedded in us. It is not confine to any race or culture but if this
ability is crushed in tender age and questioning is considered as challenge to
authority, then what we will produce is a citizenry which is confused and lack any
depth because learning is never encourage but memorizing is. From this fall out
we can see the obvious results, our masses are highly uneducated and
becoming a burden on already government meager resources. These citizens of
nation are not productive and are adding more to the already compounded
problems. In other words they become liability to society.
How this trend can be reversed, one obvious step is to stop the bleeding and
leaking but that will be a arduous task. Govt may give the local district more
authority in choosing the syllabus and as you said give the private endeavors
the subsidy. Training of teachers on Int’l level and competence is rewarded by
decent salaries. Ideas are abound but implementation is what needed in good
faith. May be NGOs and other Pvt. institutions can help. One thing is sure, for a
prosperous nation its citizen need to be educated on international level starting
from its female citizen, and tide can be turn around in single generation!
All best hopes and Good Luck to Pakistan,
Sincerely,
Moez Momin.
true face of Pakistan very eloquently, meanwhile I was enjoying another of your
great writing, your convincing book ``Islam & Science, Religious Orthodoxy and
the battle for Rationality``. It`s been always a privilege to have access to your
writing (which are always to the point and unbiased).
Your assessment of the current Pakistan`s Education crisis is on bull`s eye.
What we as a nation are producing, mindless ROBOTs, who are constantly fed
government propaganda. No wonder Pakistani students lack the analytical and
intelligent reasoning! The Govt. should invest heavily in its future, that is its
children, but in our case our priorities are foolishly misplaced.
Pick up the any curriculum and one will notice the confuse state, from the
beginning children are pounded with different and difficult languages. You rightly
said they have to learn sometimes 3 or 4 languages and they ended up
proficient in non. The sad factor is that even after passing the Matric it is not
uncommon to find a student unable to write a simple English letter or able to
comprehend Daily English newspapers.
Rote learning is ENCOURAGEd, where as questioning or discussing interesting
topics are inhibited. I remember in my 9th grade class, fascinated by Space
(thanks to PTV by showing Carl Sagan`s COSMOS), I inquire about a question
to my Physics teacher, but being told not to ask questions outside the Physics
class, what he meant was dont ask question out of the govt. prescribed book
(maybe he was not competent enough to answer those inquiries out of state
book.
Curiosity is a part of human nature, asking question, why this happen, how this
happen...etc. is embedded in us. It is not confine to any race or culture but if this
ability is crushed in tender age and questioning is considered as challenge to
authority, then what we will produce is a citizenry which is confused and lack any
depth because learning is never encourage but memorizing is. From this fall out
we can see the obvious results, our masses are highly uneducated and
becoming a burden on already government meager resources. These citizens of
nation are not productive and are adding more to the already compounded
problems. In other words they become liability to society.
How this trend can be reversed, one obvious step is to stop the bleeding and
leaking but that will be a arduous task. Govt may give the local district more
authority in choosing the syllabus and as you said give the private endeavors
the subsidy. Training of teachers on Int’l level and competence is rewarded by
decent salaries. Ideas are abound but implementation is what needed in good
faith. May be NGOs and other Pvt. institutions can help. One thing is sure, for a
prosperous nation its citizen need to be educated on international level starting
from its female citizen, and tide can be turn around in single generation!
All best hopes and Good Luck to Pakistan,
Sincerely,
Moez Momin.
#18 Posted by Rdesikan on April 17, 2000 12:51:20 am
Mr. Hoodbhoy,
Very insightful article. It probably explains why so many Indians are befuddled by the inherent hatred of India and Hinduism by so many Pakistanis. If you teach hatred to impressionable young minds, what else can you expect? BTW, do the minorities [or what you have left of them] have to suffer the indignities of such a system too?
In retrospect, I`m glad I was given the benefit of a school education that was patterned more on the O-levels [ICSE] that focused on a more rounded education. Going to college was a disappointment as it was generally a dumbed down version of what the Brits left behind.
Though I took my ICSE eons ago, I remember having to take different subjects--English with a hearty dose of Shakespeare, Geography, History that was rather global in perspective with nary a negative opinion on Pakistan, Science that was esssentially three --physics, chemistry and biology, and language in the form of Hindi, that alien tongue of the north that was foisted on this Madrasi. My question to Chowkwallas who`ve taken the Pakistani equivalent of the O and A levels. How different is your curriculum from ours, and how much of political engineering did you see?
The public school I went to was cosmopolitan, with a smattering of just about every tongue, and every religion represented, including Judiasm, that it was awfully hard for the system to foist its opinions/thinking on the students.
While I can`t comment about state-funded education, do check out the latest businessweek where there was a nice article about a small village in the north that focused on why even impoverished villagers were scraping ends to put their kids in private local schools. A teacher in a state school was quoted saying that this system was designed to produce clerks out of students.
Our general educational system is just as bad, though thank God, pun intended, save for the ocassional religious hymn foisted by certain teachers, is free of religious propaganda and hatred.
Very insightful article. It probably explains why so many Indians are befuddled by the inherent hatred of India and Hinduism by so many Pakistanis. If you teach hatred to impressionable young minds, what else can you expect? BTW, do the minorities [or what you have left of them] have to suffer the indignities of such a system too?
In retrospect, I`m glad I was given the benefit of a school education that was patterned more on the O-levels [ICSE] that focused on a more rounded education. Going to college was a disappointment as it was generally a dumbed down version of what the Brits left behind.
Though I took my ICSE eons ago, I remember having to take different subjects--English with a hearty dose of Shakespeare, Geography, History that was rather global in perspective with nary a negative opinion on Pakistan, Science that was esssentially three --physics, chemistry and biology, and language in the form of Hindi, that alien tongue of the north that was foisted on this Madrasi. My question to Chowkwallas who`ve taken the Pakistani equivalent of the O and A levels. How different is your curriculum from ours, and how much of political engineering did you see?
The public school I went to was cosmopolitan, with a smattering of just about every tongue, and every religion represented, including Judiasm, that it was awfully hard for the system to foist its opinions/thinking on the students.
While I can`t comment about state-funded education, do check out the latest businessweek where there was a nice article about a small village in the north that focused on why even impoverished villagers were scraping ends to put their kids in private local schools. A teacher in a state school was quoted saying that this system was designed to produce clerks out of students.
Our general educational system is just as bad, though thank God, pun intended, save for the ocassional religious hymn foisted by certain teachers, is free of religious propaganda and hatred.
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