What are they Teaching in Pakistani Schools Today?

RSaxena #141: I find your use of the phrase ``Pakistani moderates`` quite interesting. I suppose it is a step forward compared to thinking in terms of ``Pakistani enemies``. Third step, I suppose, would be: ``Pakistani posters`` on Chowk. And fourth would be ``fellow posters`` on Chowk, with attacks/support limited to the posts themselves, not to the individuals. My point is: please dont label Pakistanis on Chowk as ``moderates`` or ``fanatics``. Just stick to the posts themselves, and assume the posters are all perfectly fine and reasonable folks (why assume otherwise?).

Pakistan & India - Global leaders in IT

Posted By John Thimothy on May 01, 2000 at 09:16:03 in Friday Times

It is an amazing coincidence that both Pakistan & India are making rapid strides in IT. But alas India is doing so in `Information Technology` & Pakistan is doing so in `Islamic Terrorism`.

http://www.state.gov/

http://www.msnbc.com/news/401934.asp

http://cnn.com/2000/ASIANOW/south/04/30/us.southasia/index.html

http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/south_asia/newsid_731000/731473.stm

U.S.: Terrorists shift to South Asia



Terrorism report blasts Pakistan- ABC News

http://www.abcnews.go.com/sections/world/DailyNews/terroristreport000430.html

State Dept. says new locus is Afghanistan and Pakistan

NOT FROM PARVEZ,

The following is from Friday times and shows another aspect of the pak laws, what is treason in pakistan. If only the indian peace `makers` of the chowk had been told the truth.

Security as confrontation: Confrontation with India cost Pakistan its democracy. Pakistan`s ideology became India-centric. Its textbooks indoctrinated the nation in favour of a security paradigm of permanent confrontation. The Penal Code was amended to equate opposition to the anti-India ideology with treason.

TRUE NATURE

At last the true nature of the pakistanis on the chowk is out. How dare Parvez say that the pak education system is based on india hatred, how stupid he is to quote the pak books which in turn is reproduced in indian news papers. These are the secrets which the chowk pakistanis never let out. Even the `educated` and scholarly on the chowk have defended jihadists in the guise of alleged human rights. Now at last Parvez has let out the secrets, the very secrets that have moulded the thinking of the chowk pakistanis.

Now is the time to turn on to Parvez, shoot the messenger.

Ref FARANGI_KUSH #: 138

You ask {How come that most of the desi schools attendies in Pakistan always get enrolled in 0ne or two higher grade in the public schools in North America & Britain?.When the graduates of same universities apply their standard is reduced to a grade 10 or 11? Equal to those some of who cannot even read the english newspaper?}

I believe admission to most US colleges and universities are based on SAT scores. I know of several kids in India who write the SAT and get into freshman year at US colleges and universities. Perhaps, instead of claiming that secular schooling in Pakistan is bad and should be abandoned, one should look to improve its standards so that the kids have a good chance of entering Western universities at the appropriate level. Clearly, anyone doing A levels is not going to be downgraded when he applies to the US for college admission.

The point about desi kids doing high school who transfer to the US being admitted to a higher grade, it is primarily because their math and science skills are better than those attained by US kids at the same grade level. And their English also happens to be better. Perhaps this is an argument for science-based education in the English language.

There are some kids who are inherently brighter than the average and they do better in school, whether in the US or back home. The failures of the less-than-average should not be used to denigrate either US schools or science-based education in Pakistan.

Right now, there is a debate going on in Singapore about the role and quantity of religious instruction for Muslim students. Though the Singapore government is walking on eggshells because the issue is both religion and ethnic-oriented (the minority Malays being the Muslims), their fear is that this would keep the Muslims in a lower socio-economic class.

As for Umairr who quoted all the advanced first-world and third-world countries who teach in their native languages, Singapore forces all its students to learn English and one other language (Chinese, Malay, or Tamil). The English-stream students get the best jobs and opportunities and currently Singapore ranks in the top 10 nations of the world in terms of per capita income. So, education in one`s native language is not necessarily the tool that improves a nation`s wealth. It all depends on the individual`s efforts to better himself.

To the Pakistani moderates who light a fire under young ylh`s behind:

Great work.

What gall! Sitting there comfortably nestled in America and its freedoms spewing fundamentalist garbage in true armchair general fashion!

What kind of parents are rearing these things? What hope is there to turnaround the poor kids being dragged off to the madrassahs in Pakistan when the likes of this yoni latto harami (ylh) cannot be helped?

Re:ylh#133

You seem to be itching for a brawl with Indians and moderate Pakistanis. Hence you want to make provocative statements and call an intellectual like Najam Sethi a traitor. Kyon bhai, are you that bored that you have to zabardasti pick a fight ? Chalo, hamne maan liya that you are very worked up about Kashmir and you are right on every issue. Hope that makes you happy !!

I agree with the tone of Y1H.

If anybody has followed the thoughts of Dr. HoodBhoy, he has a defeatist attitude.

He has been one of the most vocal person against Nuclear Programme, not because Nuclear Programme is bad (that was a side issue only), but Pakistan cannot do and sustain Nuclear Programme because of lack of sustained education and infrastructure for Nuclear Education.

His attitude probably reflects , the reaction to ``Muslim Scientists`` during Zia era, who churned ``Islamic science`` to fill their pocket.

As autobiography, will always be autobiography, Dr. HoodBhoy`s analysis is mostly subjective and reflects his state of mind. I don`t see any goal in the article, which should have been put clearly regarding education. Most of the article is criticizing the current system. Is he the only one to criticize?. Even a matric grade student in his interview says this.

His remedy is kill this, kill this, kill this and TRUTH will surface by itself.

All our intellectuals, which I consider as DEGREED people have the same attitude as any illiterate person. ``Impose my will, because I am the only one who is right``

The primary premise is, we have to work in and with the society where we live in.

Neither can we transplant America on Pakistan. Neither will there be a mass exodus of Pakistanis to West to learn Western culture.

If the goals are set in clearly, then the issue of Maddressah vs A level is irrevelant. As one of Indian said regarding funding of Maddressah to propagate education in India. It can only be done by India, which has set a right priority in education.

In Pakistan, for our so called intellectuals, goal of education is do away with Maddressah, Take a pistol on all fundamentalist head to say ``La Ilah`` and all the problems of Pakistan will be solved. Because until and unless these fundamentalist are not got rid of we caanot succeed.

If that is the case, then China and Iran would never progress as a nation.

temporal(#130): Glad to see that both of us are roughly on the same wavelength on the matters of revolutionary movements in India during the earlier decades of twentieth century and thanks for introducing to me of some more graet freedom fighters of that era. There is no doubt that Ghadar Party lacked strong organization, and their call for total independence was premature but you must give them credit for laying out the ground work for later successes of Congress and ML. Similarly there is no way of measuring the popular support for them because it can easily be argued for not being unpopular either based on the average of 30,000-50,000 people, they were regularly attracting to their rallies. Moreover, martial law in Amritsar and the heavy handedness shown by the Raj leading to the Jullianwala Bagh massacre also attest to their popularity. The gaddarites also spawned a series of reevolutionary movement, namely Kirti Kisan, Nau Jawan Sabha and Babbar Akali Jatha ( afterall Bhagat Singh belonged to Nau Jawan Sabha, and the revolutionary activities of Kishan Singh and other members of Babbar Akali Jatha are legendary of mythical proportions. Do not confuse the Babbar Akali Jatha with some Sikh religious party. They were radical leftist Sikhs and the first party who openly rejected the Gandhiji’s philosophy of non-violence to achieve total independence). Another important factor to bear in mind is that, a party does not have to enjoy the support of the majority of 300 million or so Indians to kick out 140,000 Brits from India. This factor alone was sufficient for the defiant mood and methods of the revolutionaries of 1910-1930. Moreover, the victory is not allways judged by the success in the revolutionary sense. For them, believing in a noble cause and sincerely putting their best efforts was all that counted.

Most of these people, except BAJ, supported Gandhiji and Congress wholeheartedly in salt-making yarn-weaving and satyagraha (non-cooperation) movements but Gandhi and Congress were less than forthcoming when revolutionaries needed them. They were the people who stirred up the pot but it was another breed of politicians in the forties who succeeded in skimming the cream. Never ever being a leftist and having deep respect for all the leaders of the freedom movement, I think one must objectively analyze the role of revolutionaries in the freedom struggle in that time frame and circumstances, and appreciate it where appreciation is due.

We all tend to look at the freedom struggle from the Muslim, Hindu, Sikh and/ or Indian and Pakistani perspective while completely ignoring the British or Raj’s perspective. Naturally the first line of defense, from Raj’s perspective would be to hold on to power in India at all costs. They would lay out thorns on every step of the way for these anglophobe revolutionaries by severly repressing them and infiltrating their ranks to destroy them inside out. Additionally the Raj would deface them by labelling them continuously as terrorists and common petty criminals. The second line of defense would be to prop up least anglophobe alternate parties and leadership which can guarentee the safety of 140,000 Brits in addition to British friendly governments--if Raj was to withdraw from India. That is why both Congress and ML were not treated nearly as harshly as their predecessors.

The teaching of the history of freedom movements must not be limited to Congress and ML only because it is lot more than just TNT and negotiating around round, square or parallelogram tables.

To All Islamists:

please always remember that this word has been coined by those with the secularist & liberal mindset.Obviously the antonym for this is the Un-Islamist.I recommend that,henceforth,this term be used for such buffoons.

It is high time that the nefarious designs of such `learned` people be exposed who have been the ``Talibans` of the Harvard,Cambridge,& 0 & A levels system of `education`.It is another matter that despite their best efforts they have always pathetically failed to gain converts.The proof is that more & more fringe-muslims & non-muslims are feeling the pull of Islam in the farangi-lands.

How come that most of the desi schools attendies in Pakistan always get enrolled in 0ne or two higher grade in the public schools in North America & Britain?.When the graduates of same universities apply their standard is reduced to a grade 10 or 11? Equal to those some of who cannot even read the english newspaper?

Next to armaments the greatest business in the farangi lands is that of `education`.How come that Germans & French are able to teach without resorting to the brownie-pilpili-sahib theatrics.

If Hoodbhoy(of Dumbo-fame) is sincere in his `mission` let me suggest to do the following:

1.Change his garb.He should look,walk,& talk like his desi village pupils.(He may suddenly feel his I.Q lowering a few notches,but this will establish his true esteem.

2.Stop quoting `foreign` solution to indigineous situations.Take a course or volunteer with MAULANA(never forget this word MAULANA) Abdul Sattar Eddhi.

3.If he is using any farangi props & is sneeringly peppering them to augment his arguments:Like drinking,cigar or pipe smoking or wearing farangi bill-boards(otherwise known as apparel) the please abandon that.

4.Try to work as a scientist or an educator.Do not mix and match them.It seems your are failing in both.A scientist is as secular as a taxi driver,mistry,carpenter & surgeon.Please do not mix religion with the mundane secular(worldly,materialist,belly filling activities).Leave the affairs to guide the people to those who do it best.Politicians,maulanas,social volunteers & soldiers and poets and charity prone individuals)

5.Are you willing to sacrifice something of value for your cause----no matter how `misguided`---like money,relationship,lifestyle,career etc etc .If not then believe me you are already a big time-consumer.



Pakistan is not the name of the territory between Iran & India.It is a concept & Ideology which needs continous grooming & preening.Is it any wonder that the most active community in matters muslim & Islam is the one from India,Pakistan,South Africa, & East Africa(all fro Indo-Pak origin)? With the resolve & reinforcement of the Afros this is already the most vibrant & dynamic community.Pakistan is the name of the muslim renaissance & we Pakistanis are thankful to have been the fortunate ones to play this role.It is another matter that this fruit is being wasted by the parrots & mynahs of the farangi `school` of thought.

You just cannot shake it off.The CHANGE will come from within the farangi lands.Our youth need the positive leader-ship role scenarios & not the whining & ridiculing disdain for the grand value system we already have.

Look what they are achieving with your `help` & without your help.Just do a quick reality check.The children of Islamists are achievers & those of Un-Islamists are druggies & burger-flippers.What you sow so shall you reap.

To all Islamists:I S L A M P A I N D A B A A D !!

US Report Admonishes Pakistan on Terror

WASHINGTON :A State Department report on terrorist activities worldwide urges Pakistan to curb armed groups fighting India for control of the disputed territory of Kashmir.

The admonition is contained in the department`s annual report on terrorism, due to be released Monday.

While Pakistan is not on the list of countries that sponsor terrorism, a State Department official said the report notes that Pakistan is being watched. ``They need to do better,`` said the official, who spoke on condition of anonymity. Pakistan and Afghanistan are accused of providing safe havens and support to international terrorist groups.

The world faces greater threats from ``loose networks`` of Pakistani and Afghan groups and individuals motivated more by religion and ideology than by politics and financed increasingly by drug trafficking, crime and illegal trade.

The New York Times, saying it had obtained the full 107-page report, reported in Sunday editions that in addition to Pakistan, the latest report is especially critical of Afghanistan for providing safe haven and support to international terrorist groups.

The congressionally mandated report, issued each spring, largely mirrors the comments on Pakistan made by President Clinton when he visited that country on March 25.

Clinton pressed Gen. Pervez Musharraf, the Pakistani leader, to ease tensions with India and restrain Islamic militants from moving across a cease-fire that divides Kashmir between the two countries.

Clinton said Pakistan must ``create conditions that will allow dialogue to succeed`` in resolving the Kashmir dispute, which nearly sparked a war between the two South Asian rivals last summer.

The Times said the report cites Afghanistan as a ``major terrorist threat`` by, among other things, continuing to shelter the Saudi exile Osama bin Laden, who is wanted in the 1998 bombings of two U.S. embassies in Africa.

Overall, it said, the report concludes that the threat of terrorism now comes less from state-sponsored attacks than from ``loose networks`` of groups and individuals motivated more by religion or ideology by politics and financed increasingly by drug trafficking, crime and illegal trade.

The Times said the report also notes that the weapons of choice are moving away from car and truck bombs and other explosives and more toward biological, nuclear, chemical and other ``weapons of mass destruction,`` as well as ``cyber-terrorism.``

Amit #132

I think you are taking a very simplistic approach to casteism. Your arguments based on color are especially superficial. I don`t care about Islam and I don`t want to defend it, but this is the first time I heard that Islam is skin skin-color conscious! WOW!

I know, south & north Indian fair skinned shudras, North and south Indian dark skinned Brahmins, and every color combination for Muslims.

Except for Indian born religions, there is no other religion which gives preferential treatment to caste, color, skin or nationality. Once other religions take you in their fold, you can become a priest, carpenter or a mortician with the same level of access to god.

Incidentally, the non availability of god, and inequality of status for Shudras was/is the main reason for them to convert to Christianity and Islam. And not skin color!

Think about it.

Vicky

Re:temporal#120

The article you posted on the caste system is very interesting. Although I am myself a hindu brahmin, I completely agree that the caste system is responsible for the decay, degeneration and defeat for India in the past. Babar has written in his memoir ``Babarnama`` about an incident when he was fighting with a hindu king. On the eve of the battle, he noticed that there were a lot of fires burning on the hindu army site. When he asked about it, he was told that different subcastes in the hindu army were cooking food separately, hence the fires. Babar immediately replied that he would win the next day, which is exactly what happened. If people cannot eat with each other, how can they fight together ?

The real issue is why did hindus institute such a wretched system for thousands of years ? The answer is obvious - racism. The subcontinent has seen numerous fair skinned invaders in history. Each group of invaders won political power but then they could not figure out what to do with the dark skinned natives. You could not kill so many people. Moreover, it was very tempting to lead a life of luxury on the backs of the subjugated people, exploiting their labor and using their women. Different invaders came up with different strategies. The aryans came up with the caste system.

The idea of the caste system was to blame everything on your past life`s actions. If you did not like your present, it was because you were bad in your previous birth. Keep on doing your best so that the next birth would lead to better results and a better caste. What a perfect system to maintain status quo for domination. It worked a bit too well, because the Aryans became lazy, decadent and degenerate which led to their defeat by muslims.

Muslims and the british faced a similar dilemma when they won political power. When muslims faced the more aryan hindus in Pakistan and Afghanistan, their objective was conversion. Yet when the muslims occupied India and faced the more dark skinned natives, suddenly they lost all interest in conversion. Why was that so ? After all who wanted a whole bunch of dark skinned muslims claiming equality based on Islam ? So they conveniently settled down to maintaining racial/ethnic boundaries and forming alliances with hindus. The british similarly maintained racist boundaries but tried to create an intermediate, educated class that would be a buffer between them and the masses. The overall them is the same - racism.

In response to bilal_naseer (Reply # 129)

Dear Bilal:

Your comment is quite appropriate. However, the power of your comment may not be denied provided an overwhelming majority of Pakistani schools maintain at least a minimum level of academic standard. Do they? Are Pakistani schools a reflection of the troubled state of Pakistani state and civil society? Do you know how many “ghost” schools exist in various parts of Pakistan?

Sincerely, Bilal Ahmad

P.S. Bilal, I hope you won`t mind this Bilal to Bilal communication.

For longest now I have wondered what a waste of time chowk can be....

I want to start with Pervez Hoodbhoy. I know a student of yours who is a Fulbright scholar here in the US. He was kind enough to tell me more about you because that Peter Jennings Show ``India Pakistan and the Bomb`` really had me interested.

I understand that you have devoted your life to science and Mathematics and the presently Pakistan seems to lack in the mentioned fields. I am some times baffled by your approach to the issues of Pakistan ..... all of you have done is lament all through .... and pseudo intellectuals of this forum have said yay to everything you have said...

you have time and again used the example of ``Taliban`` and the cursed ``Mullahs`` ...is that all there is to Islam???? .... and you have time and again singled out Islam as the cause of backwardness of Pakistan. In essence you have committed the same fallacy as Attaturk .....

whereas I commend your stance against obscuranitism and fanaticism I must say that to condemn a whole civilization and to take away their right to feel proud of what they have been and of their essence ... is essentially killing them .... this was Attaturk`s folly ... and thank god you are not in power ...

So let us think before we speak .... pragmatic solutions can only be considered if you clear on an ideological plane....

So what do we need to teach our kids in school is big question ? A question which is beyond the capacity of an undergrad in the US who spent his entire life studying in American and British systems ....

but like it or not ....

Ideologies are inculcated through education ....

Whereas a thinking, interpretive mode of acquiring

knowledge should be pursued one cannot abandon the

inculcation of national pride in a child. But I am not here to debate whether this should be done or not done ......

I agree with most of what you have to say but you display such fascination of newly acquired awareness .... you come across as very juvenile!!!

As for the rest of you who have drawn tangents with Mahmud of Ghazni and MB Qasim ......

Mahmud Of Ghazna and Muhammad bin Qasim will remain heroes for Pakistanis as they will remain the worst scourges for Indians !!!!! Thats the way its meant to be ...

One thing we know for sure that Mahmud of Ghazna was never defeated in battle till the time he took up arms against the jats.....

By the way Mcgupta ... I was educated in the British and American systems of Education in Pakistan but

for the drama that your country has put on in Kashmir for the last 53 years has made me feel the same way as that young girl in that remote border village ........

So need I quote my hero Zulfikar Ali Bhutto who said in the UN on the 15th December 1971 on the eve of defeat ...

`` I say what Cato said to the Romans ... Carthage must be destroyed ... and we will tell our children and they will tell their children``

You have forced this mode of thinking .... by doing what you have done in Kashmir, by criticizing the Partition and by threatening us with agression for 53 years! So untill India changes its ways and accepts the fact that Pakistan is here to stay ... and that people have a right to choose .... that self determination supercedes other ideologies and principles ....

``India is our enemy and India must be destroyed and we will tell our children and they will tell their children``

and you can rest assure this is coming from someone who has never been exposed to the Pakistani educational system!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You force insecurities on our people and then you expect us not to defend ourselves ...... this is why people like Najam Sethi are traitors!

There are priorities higher than the priorities set out by the learned Professor from MIT ......

Science and Mathematics count but not at the cost of our annihilation!!!!

I know I am inviting intellectual wannabe ruthless diatribe .... so let the good times roll!

Bilal Nasserr.

I agree with you.

May be in current times, Dr. Hoodbhoy has come up with this.

I think not only Dr. Hood bhoy but most Pakistanis on this board have studied from same schools in Pakistan, which he is mentioning.

Seeing the QUALITY and CONTENT of Indian repliers, I think Dr. Hoodbhoy got hold of Indian Curriculum by mistake and interpreted it according to his way of thinking (which I think reflects an education from the highly secular Indian schools).