Pssst...This is Rest of South Asia speaking

Sadhanaji,

Quite before coming to #89, I had the urge to put a few queries to you, not completely rhetorically either, and really in a spirit of gratitude and honest wonder. So...

What is the motivation, Sadhana?

How many hours are there in your day?

How in the world is it possible for you to hold tech job (am assuming IT), in which one cannot help but bring work home (in the cerebral brief case at least) and stay on the ball, nay balls, here on the chowk?

(I ask as one who has had to choose betweem accepting a modest IT job and a sabbatical for political education from you-know-where)

best regards,

PM

temporal,

Yes, hartaals and payya jaams may be all-too-common occurences in Paksitani cities, but few, if any are to protest against injustice or violation of the common good. Where the public good *is * sometimes (ostensibly) represented, it is only incidental to the primary purpose of furthering some vested interest or other. (The payya jaams to protest gasoline price hikes or market closures to protest GST impostion come to mind). Assad_K`s last post seems to support this thesis of self-serving activism.

Much as I am myself tempted to tie down the differences in (political) attitude of the two peoples in this regard to DNA, I think we seriously need to identify more plausible faactors. Certainly, inertia would be a major one, but one gets the feeling it goes deeper.

regards,

PM

PS. Am enjoying the 10 deg C above seasonal averages too.

INDIA AND LTTE,

Gymno #72,

It appears that you have some how stopped short of including the indian involvement in sri-lanka. In 1982, if I remember correctly, a group of srilankan soldiers were killed in ambush by the tamils, a riot broke out in Colombo, many tamils were killed, including the parents of my then classmate. Many escaped to Jafna, many more to India and other parts of the world.

This was a period when india had serious disagreements with the srilankan govt. (1) they allowed the operation of a VOA repeater station in srilanka much to the anger of indians. (2) They allowed the refueling of US military aircraft from philipines through bangkok to Colombo to Diego Garcia.(3) An american military map showed Tricomali as a US naval base, which the american said was a mistake. (4)Srilanka was moving in the direction of a free port with tremendous smugling consequences to india. This was also a time whem srilankan govt went to israel for help while the tamils were courting PLO. In those days israel aws a no-no to india.

India so this as an opportunity to settle some scores. LTTE and other organisations were supported by the indian govt among the refugies in tamil nadu. When the situations worsened, srilanka accepted indian `help`, the jayawardene-rajive gandhi accord annulled all of the above 4 items. There is a specific provision that Srilanka will not allow any foreign military vessels to come to its waters with out consulting india.

The rest of course is well known. LTTE refused to allow any other tamil organisation and that was the primary reason for fall out with the indians.

tahmed and others have pointed out before, india did help create a monster, a taliban clone, but the point is one should be able to control it. In the case of pakistan, the jihadic gini came out in afghanistan, but now has cast the spell on pakistan.

YLH

I think we may be related. Please get in touch at ScienceAndLogic@nycmail.com

S&L

Re: (ylh)

Very dignified posts you have put up. What`s with your obsession and constant references to the orifices? Must be related to your obsession with everything divergent, especially the many references to pedophilia and homosexuality made in it. Anyway, your preferences are your business, not mine to comment on.

Study hard for those Rutgers exams. So how many terrorists, err Mujahideen, does it take to have enough critical mass for a jehad? What`s the best strategy to execute suicide attacks? If you can answer these, you will pass your exams with flying colours.

#79,89

Me Too.

I really am very busy taking exams .... and I really dont have time right now to get into this ... how people like RSaxena make me sick!!!!!

Let me make something clear to you RSAXENA ... if you dont have anything positive to contribute please keep your urges to let your pent up nonsense out ..... I had never met a person whose metal devices and oral orifices could substitute for their ... rectal ... orifice!!!!Is this a Hindu thing???

-Yasser Hamdani

macgupta #80

Arun:

Don’t you dear temporal me! You clever dilliwala --- you refer to a very thought provoking article(Mushirul Hasan and earlier Jochen-Hippler), then slip in strike/protest and the responsiveness of (Pakistani) governments and expect a quick response. So considerate of you! Might as well throw in Kashmir, Sunni-Shia schism and the caste system as well to wipe the slate clean.
Seriously, ( and I mean seriously --- and hoping my attempts at humour are not irksome) give me some time to respond.

There is an interesting book I am reading by a UoT professor on the development of English literature of the Windies. In one chapter he is discussing the various issues from the English literature point of view. I am struck by the similarity of that in the present sub-continental context. Since this is not on the net I would need to painfully type out his words. Hence the time request.

Also, I have to reply to the indefatigable Sadhna bibi. So I will try and answer you both shortly. Well, in a few days.

This is promising to be a great weekend here in Toronto, with temperatures 10 degrees above normal. How is the dilli garmi? And are you experiencing any water shortages?

regards

temporal

To correct my previous email, the armored division I referred to was in 1965 not 1971.

Rsaxena #64 Not only am I Pakistani, but one whose near and dear ones have experienced the horrors of 1947 while fleeing East Panjab, and who have played central roles in 1965 and 1971 in giving chase to your troops in Kashmir and in holding back your armored division in 1971. I also remeber the agony of our next door neigbor on learning of the death of his father in action defending Lahore in 1965. Had a good friend, only recently in school enjoying WWII movies with me, himself burn to death inside a tank in 1971. I could go on. But the point is: it is time to put the hostilities of the past half century behind us, and give the next generation a chance to live together in a peaceful and civilized manner. The failure is of the South Asian leaders who have failed to foster goodwill among people, not of the people.

tahmed321 #81

Well, good to cross swords with you, too, I`ll try in the interests of clarity not to blow my top again :-(.

tahmed, let me first say that the `support` for the Tamil cause from India is only in the form of some political opinion these days, the arms factories were destroyed many years ago as far as I know. A law (termed by many to be `draconian`) called TADA(Terrorist and Disruptive activities Act) was brought in force for some years to quell covert activities. Please don`t compare Pakistan and Tamil Nadu, there are no training camps here, no schools of ideology and no mass mobilization, no public meetings, no weapons and most importantly LTTE is banned in India.

Back to the topic of peoples participation: You are right in saying community activism is different from trying to get rid of established processes. Now how to judge which is which? Don`t judge by the cost of civic disruption, the hidden costs of public apathy or of not holding governments/leaders accountable almost on a daily basis are much much higher(surely all of us in South Asia realise that).

Thats one reason for talking of Rs 2000cr spent on re-elections after only one year. All that money down the drain? to publically uphold a principle: that governments power comes from the people according to the norms prescribed by the Constitution.

Civic disruptions in modern South Asia can be of good cause only if those who are protesting and those who are targetted both publically acknowledge that the sovereignity of the existing Constitution and the people is supreme(whatever they may do behind the scenes, at least lipservice in public gaze must be kept up, thats a very important ritual, too, one may not always realize).

Now whether the point being made relates to a political or social or administrative issue, unless those affected show some dynamism and take ownership, efforts willnot be made to recognise and resolve these issues even within the `established process` (read Constitution and collective decision-making), after all governments are made of ordinary people who are far from omniscent.

The parallels with the struggle for Independence becomes relevant for two reasons. Yes there is a distinction between the objectives in those days(throwing off the colonial yoke) and these days. BUT, but, what we learnt then was that mass movements if carried out peacefully can be used to make a strong point, secondly that a ready tool of `empowerment` is available through past experience to ordinary South Asians at any level in the totem pole to be used in situations that warrant them.

The moral weight of many people coming together for a single purpose has not lost its relevance. Surely reckless amendments to the Constitution are reasons to express ones opinions openly(whether actions result or not)

At this point in time, if indeed Pakistan is at a crossroads, I humbly suggest the criteria to judge what is `good` and what is `bad` in mass protests ought to be, 1) recognition of the basic principles of all citizens being equal vs unequal and 2)unity vs divisiveness.

Take jihadi organization rallies, political party rallies, citizens rallies, bandhs in a province(say) against national meddling in local government. You tell me, is it so difficult to judge what is and what is not conducive to Pakistan`s bright future?

I guess unity can look a lot like collusion and also many important issues are ignored by the most vocal. Thats where an alert public can make a big difference. But what currently stops every party from toning down their divisive and confrontational tones and talking of unity in times of crisis right now?

BTW, do you have any idea of the combined circulation figures of English newspapers in Pakistan?

As temporal says(and I wasnot totally ignorant of) Pakistan has a long tradition of mass protests, too. Don`t give up on it, please.

Sadhana

More random thoughts.. Regarding political rallies in Pakistan, their major function seems to be to of the sort that Tahmed describes.. destabilize the goverenment, rather than work - well, positively. Don`t blasta nuclear bomb, have bangles thrown at you in the `political rally`.. blast the bomb, get accused by the same people of screwing up Pakistans position in the world. Funnily enough, most rallies that do occur tend to be for causes that I find rather abhorrent, like the rallies taken out by the Sarhad Chamber of Commerce in the wake of the Samia murder. Alternately, let any government make any attempts to change the Hudood ordinance, Blasphemy Law or any other of those fun provisos we have in our law, and watch the people display their right to protest a change in the law!

However, I do think that Pakistanis are as capable as anyone else of carrying out and favouring change. I`m not sure whether the Orangi Pilot Project fits Sadnas description of change from within, seeing as how it essentially circumvented government, but that was free of protests and suchlike but just.. worked.

Possible unrelated 2 bits..

Since the decision has moved on from economics to the drought to Kashmir, as usual, I would just post a small note here.

Kashmir is a political problem and it can only be solved politically, and not through armed means or any such considered military misadventures. While Kashmir is being debated to death, it would be nice if both India and Pakistan would ask the Kashmiris how they feel about Islamabad`s and New Delhi`s attitude towards resolving the problem?

It would seem that the both nations are willing to fight for Kashmir to the last Kashmiri!

It is time both the protagonists considered the third option; not the demarcating of the LoC into a fixed border, but independence for Kashmir in its totality. Given the alienation levels of the average Kashmiri, it should come as no suprise that they wouldf hate both India and Pakistan for the misery they are suffering due to the intractibility of the problem as perpetuated by both sides to appease their own vested domestic political interests.

Unilateral, bi-lateral, tri-lateral or quad-lateral diplomacy will fail to the solve the problem, because India and Pakistan have so much political capitial invested in prolonging the crisis, that they really, in their hearts of heart, do not want a political settlement of the issue!

Ciao!

gymnosophist #72 Thanks for the well informed background on Sri Lanka. Seems to me the problems in Sri Lanka are not unlike similar problems elsewhere: you mentined the imposition of a ``national`` language on Tamils, quotas on education, jobs. Interestingly, you mentioned the unwillingness of Vajpayee to clamp down on pro-LTTE support from Tamils across the border (shades of Kashmir, with roles changed!!). I think this would indicate a common ``tap root`` to which these problems are symptoms. I dont know what this tap root is: my feeling is that it has something to do with undue interference of central governments in local affairs.

sadna, you write too fast for me. No sooner did I send my previous post that I see you have another one where you provide some perfectly good examples (``Manipuri mothers doing group-guard duty at nights...``) that scream out for clarification: I think we should distinguish between community service and social activism of the type you mention, and the hartals and demonstrations I was talking about. Community services of the kind you mention in these examples strengthen (indeed lie at the roots) of democratic processes. Hartals of the kind I was referring to, and of the kind you referred to in the context of pre-Independence Satyagraha, are a challenge to the established processes: these are OK if one wishes to weaken or get rid of established processes as in pre-Independence days, but not OK if one wishes to strengthen them.

sadna #73, you write ``Mass protests are not yet irrelevant to the subcontinent...``. And then you proceed to provide the precise reason that they are largely irrelevant to the subcontinent today when you write ``Its easy to see that Pakistanis are forgetting the struggle for Independence...People in India still remember it``. People need to realize that what was justified for purposes of gaining political freedom is not, in most cases, justified once the political freedom has been achieved. Let me explain: In pre-Independence days, demonstrations were justified, since the alternative process was not a democratic process but a bloody revolutionary war like the American Revolution or the 1857 struggle. But now the alternative process is not civil war: democratic legislative processes exist, and it is these processes that are replaced (and often weakened) by demonstrations. Thus, rather than one man one vote, the most aggressive and vocal elements in society have their way. In Pakistan, the reason people have not taken to the streets at this time is because there is I think an unspoken consensus to give the military a chance to fix some things. People will take to the streets if this consensus starts to change.

Thus: to the extent demonstrations make up for the ineffectiveness of democratic processes, they could possible by justified in the same way as military takeovers could be justified ``for the greater good`` (which is the justification provided by the Pakistani attorney general earlier this week). But one needs to be very cautious and clear in ones mind of the costs in terms not just of economic disruption but also the weakening of the democratic processes already in place.

PS: Good to cross swords with you on this

:-). I recall our earlier discussion on local goverment, and I (and presumably other Chowkwallahs) definitely learnt a lot from your knowledgeable description of the experience with local governments in India.

Also, I actually enjoyed your reference to the glorious unwashed and I think temporal made a mistake in thinking it was deprecating.