Pssst...This is Rest of South Asia speaking

In reply to krashid :

In absence of evidence to the contrary, one generally takes it that one`s government is lying. But then the govt. allowed Lord Avebury of the U.K., who was awarded Sitara-i-Pakistan for his support to (Pakistan`s version) of the Kashmiri cause, to visit Kashmir. From after that, Lord A. seems to have changed his tone, and is not as harsh as he used to be against India.

-arun gupta

My dear temporal:

Thanks for your post re. my post to the Webmasters of Chowk. I am grateful.

I can see how the following paragraph could have created a bit of a confusion.

``This is very annoying. I cannot be `made to read` a piece -- since it is in front of me -- and not know where did it come from?``

It was not a complaint against their demeanour but that of the posters`. If we, however unnecessarily, prefix it with, ``You will agree with me that...``, then the intention becomes aggressively civil and excruciatingly clear.

My hope was that the Webmaster(s) would announce it in the Chowk, as a matter of policy, that a minimum of reference is required to make the item traceable, authenticatable, and, in the event needed, quotable and citable.

Most sincerely yours,

``Observer``

RE; Ferozek #169

``The question Pakistan has to ask is that it might be willing to save the Muslim world from the evil specters of Zionist and Indian and American, and any combination thereof, conspiracies``

You`re joking right? India conspires against the muslim world?!

OFFSHORE BANKING SOFTWARE COMPANY /BD

I am pretty sure that talent available now in Pakistan. You could come in a run some ads and check out the stuff available. The problem is the brain drain because visas are being offered left right and centre and lot of people just want to walk out. There is a large banking industry in the country there should be younger bankers willing to retool into this area weaknesses.

OTHER INVESTMENT AREAS:

There is definite prospects for private investigation companies. The government needs these services, private companies need such services desperately to control pilferage and theft. Lawyers operate without the assistance of private detectives. International connections are also important. Search for hidden assets is very important. International services are needed. but they are very expensive and there is no local liason. A case in point is the rumoured case of few companies having genuine difficulties finally got fed up and hired a Hong Kong based agency to investigate a set of local bankers suspected of extortion and money laundering relating to loan recovery operations. The Hong Kong Agency has rumoured to have found the requisite evidence but billed far more had there been a high standard local agency to connect with for leads.

CREDIT INFORMATION:

Retailers and Industrial supply companies have no recourse to credit information reporting and have to rely on tradional methods which need replacement.

Re: Observer

A) No one assumed anything about your origins other than to notice that you`re not very bright and despite knowing English well, lack basic skills such as the ability to read carefully. Not only that, you`re dishonest. You *did * accuse me of having written that article. Now when caught with your pants down, you try to wiggle out of it like a worm saying since I posted it, I must agree with it (which in itself is a comment that displays your intellectual prowess).

B) ``O`bevqoofa,`` what does that article have to with the shortcomings about India you raise? It is about Pakistan, for Pakistan, and written by a Pakistani. Of course, that`s a little subtle for you. Is irrelevant rabble-rousing your habit?

Now before you go on another rampage, at least think before you do so you don`t put your jooti in your mouth again.

Umairr #156

You seem to say, in `nonideal` democracies, the majority imposes its will on the minorities, except in `truly pluralist` democracies like the US. What happens in states which are not democracies? Does a minuscule minority impose its world view on the majority with far-far less justification?

Has the ` minority viewpoint also been found to prevail in any `freedom movements` or does such a thing never happen?

For example, is the LTTE world view the one that all Sri Lankan Tamils must accept merely because LTTE has had the bottom to kill off moderate Tamil dissenters and eliminate all those who differed with it in the nature of the compromise to be reached with the Sinhalese?

Does the fact that LTTE cadres are willing to kill or die endlessly for their cause increase the validity of their methods(eliminate all challengers) or the validity of their world view for all Sri Lankan Tamils?

Sadhana

Observer #167

More insults, that`s very grown up. Again, do you have blinders when you read about India? You sound eloquent and articulate but nothing about the questions raised about democracy, secularism, etc.

This forum on Chowk is named ``InterAct``. How I read it mean is interacting in a civilized manner, not using words like `bevakoofa`, just because you like it.

If you didn`t get the gist of my response, let me summarize it for you: India is on path of fixing the problems you stated it has and better. The only thing that makes me angry is that sneeking into my neighborhood (disputed, if you like) in the dark of the night disguised as ``brilliant tactical maneuver`` or making widows out of newlyweds (in the name of Allah). I wouldn`t tolerate that. If that happens again .... we will show where to put your tail.

BTW, you did claim that you are an Indian and I was not assuming that you were a Pakistani. Most Pakistanis I know (Four of them were my roommates in college for five years) are much more polite than you are.

Re: bahmad # 158

You have raised a valid point.

First, before I answer that, allow me to me throw cold water on your ``wish list`` of reforming the political insititutions in Pakistan. The World Bank just came out with another condionality that Pakistan needs to reform its bureaucracy before the tranches will be released to it. The problem in Pakistan is not a lack of reforms; reforms are announced each day; high powered comittees are created each hour and promises to improve the lot of the common person is religiously made, but the problem is always one of implementation. The present Pakistani political system, as it has been engineered over the years is against reform.

The problem, the real reason why nothing will happen is that the mode of reform, the bureaucracy, does not want to amend its ways and unless the army takes over the entire government and starts running it on a micro level, waiting for the bureaucracy to reform the system is an utopian dream. Yes, I agree with you that we need to break out of our post colonial mindset, but that is easier said than done, because that very mindset, which you wish to break, is perpetuated daily in Pakistan by the system, which still operates on the old colonial pattern of divide and rule.

Pakistan, for all practical purposes is a dysfunctional state with sharp internal contradictions and a confused external perspective. Pakistan, in a political sense, is the confederation of four semi-autnomous enclaves; Sind, Punjab, NWFP, and Baluchistan with their own set of complusions and their own brand of ethnicity, which determines their political outlooks and this outlook is based on the simple principle of ethnic confrontation.

What is Pakistan; can you define the political raison d` etre of Pakistan as it has evolved over the last 53+ years? I am afraid, bahmad, Pakistan is a common idea upon which we all chose to disagree with and our defination of Pakistan is based on our ethnicity, religious, cultural and political biases and those in turn are colored by our provincial affiliations.

Getting to my idea of Pakistan pursuing its domestic agenda in isolationism, it is simply this: get your economic house in order by relying on your own means and capabilties, without external financial help. Isolationism was suggested in a political sense. Pakistan needs to improve its political conditions at home and its foreign policy should be directed towards enhancing trade and creating a ``bubble`` for it to exist in the international system, where its foreign policy should aid its economic revitalization. Pakistan needs to champion the cause of its own down trodden people, before it embarks on a moral crusade to protect and serve the interests of the entire Muslim world.

The question Pakistan has to ask is that it might be willing to save the Muslim world from the evil specters of Zionist and Indian and American, and any combination thereof, conspiracies, but does the Muslim world really sees Pakistan as its natural champion of human rights and does it want Pakistan to protect it from the international community?

Pakistan has too many problems internally for it to be irking the international community by poking its nose, where it is not wanted. We should learn to live, alone, by our own wits and let the world live according to its own wits.

Hope this clarifies my isolationist agenda for Pakistan.

Ciao!

Observer 167:

Re: References for quotes on the Chowk

Chowk is not responsible for the contents of what the contributors write or quote. Your query should have been directed to that writer.

I agree with you that references should be given if available.

You can find the article “A friendless Pakistan? by Rahimullah Yusufzai” in the May 08 issue of the daily News @
http://www.jang.com.pk/thenews/

regards

temporal

Sexna #146 and Foot in the Face (? or something like that, was it ``in the face of the mouth? Forgive me for I have forgotten) #155.

I don`t think that in the English, French or German languages is there a livelier expression than (and as expressive! as) ``Oh, bevqoofa!``. I like it and I shall use it. I am learning this language (in fact I already know it quite well) and this is my favourite expression.

So, Sexna and ``In the mouth``, O` bevqoofa, I knew what the article was. Sexna put it in because he agreed with it. Hence it represented his thoughts.

You all have blinders (khhopey?) on your eyes. You are so categorical in thinking, Indians about ten times more than the Pakistanis, that the moment a person criticizes India you assume Pakistani behind it. No hesitation, no doubt, to lump people into nationalities just because they say something you like or dislike. You, for instance couldn`t see that I was neither an Indian nor a Pakistani. Just an observer.

O` bevqoofa, if you `could care less`, then why didn`t you? I take it that after the fashion of rustic, illitrate Americans, you also do not distinguish between ``I couldn`t care less`` and ``I could care less``. You see, ``I couldn`t care less`` is the same genre as ``it cannot be overemphasized``. That is, a limit has been reached. It couldn`t be less than this, ... ``

Next I will hear from you ``Irregardless of... . Tell you what, allthat malarky about Live in Rome... is just that, malarky. People like you should live in Rome as educated and civilized Romans live.

Master Sexna: Dear fellow, what do you plan to do when you grow up?

Incidentally, as, I think, Syedha used to say, are you two smoking bananas these days? But seriously, what are you two on these days? Stay away from the antihistamines. They are not`joy`medications.

To end, and put some buddhi back in your gourds, see below a letter sent to the Webmasters/owners of Chowk. I knew precisely what the letter was. I just didn`t like the high-school-habit, bad and ugly, of not indicating reference to citations.





Subject: Referenceless articles on the Chowk



Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 00:04:03 -0500

From: M [...e.com]

To: info@Chowk.com

Part 1.1.1 Type: Plain Text (text/plain)

Encoding: 7bit

info@Chowk.com



Subject: Referenceless articles on the Chowk Priority: Highest



Dear Sirs and Madams:

I just read letter #123 on the ... [Harish Nambiar] board. It has no reference to its origin, nor even an implied notion as to its source etc.

This is very annoying. I cannot be ``made to read`` a piece -- since it is in front of me -- and not know where did it come from?

I should be very pleased to know the source of that piece so I can place it in its proper context and perspective. Thanks.

Sincerely,

[``observer``]

Now, to come back to my post: I suggest that you think about it seriously. Reflect upon it. It is a `felt` and serious post.

Don`t for ever be a jack ass.

One more point regarding religious right in Pakistan.

Although their philosophy is not accepted by masses who want their problems solved, but they are cobnsidered honest. If our religious right was more pragmatic, it would have a better chance. The same has been true of Leftist parties (i.e if they have been more pragmatic), who are religious left.

There is no doubt most religious parties are very organised and the way they are LEARNING to identify themselves with people, they have a bright future.

Compare to that mass of hoodlum PPP (Zardari Bachao Party) or Muslim League (Sharif Bachao Party)

Feroz K# 144

I think there is no better description of Pakistan.

Inuyour face#155

Although you claim India as such but facts speak against it.

India has never allowed foreign observers or International agencies to look at atrocities in Kashmir.

India is not transparent, I will say it is naked (barbaric)

BAhmed!

You have rightly pointed out the plight of Baluchistan.

Not only for the last 12 years, but even in Zia`s regime these same Bugti, Leghari, Kansi, etc etc all the big landlords and policians were at the helm of power. If they are blaming now, it is their fault.

Particularly, Akbar Bugti utilized his time in fighting one of its renegade tribesman and utilized all power to crush him. Moreover, he blackmailed by abduction foreigners who wanted to invest and had a price for all investment, which was good enough for foreigners to shun Investment.

If all the looters are together to sing the same tune at least one should not be blind to the facts.

If they are speaking now. They should be asked why they were accepting Pajeros, and briefcases, instead of demanding the development and rights for Baluchistan. The current crises appeared for reasons which you can very well understand. It was not that till last year there were a lot of dams and water storage to circumvent the crises and it suddenly appeared. It was the making of all these politicians.

Everybody agreed on not making KalaBagh dam, but nobody had brains or sinceerity to fight for something for the people so that these kind of crises don`t happen.

Why go far. Look at the streets of Karachi. Look at water problem. Look at electricity problems.

The people who have all the pain of Karachi were in power for long time to resolve it, but instead their utilized all their energies to crush any one who does not say Altafd Bhai.

Those self proclaimed fascist and looters have to go.

Re: Umairr 156 and Gymnosophist 152

Working from memory here, Gymnosophist is correct about the pre-Partition distribution of seats. If I remember correctly, the AIML was soundly trounced everywhere in the 1937 elections. In fact, it did so badly that the Congress felt that it could renege on its powersharing agreement. However, in 1946, they did much better. This is when Mr. Jinnah realized what Gandhiji and the Congress had known all along: that the masses need premodern symbols to whip them up and get them to back a party. So the AIML used ``Islam is in danger`` to get the mobs worked up into a killing and voting frenzy. This was the Direct Action Day of 1946. It was felt by Mr. Jinnah that some judicious muscle-flexing was needed to convince the British and especially the Congress that the AIML had to be taken seriously. In the Punjab, the JI was making inroads in the urban areas and among the lower-middle classes--its natural constituency--and seriously challenging the various Pirs, Sajda Nashins and whatnots in the Unionist Party. These people allied with the AIML against the JI.

I don`t recall if the AIML won an outright majority or not in the Punjab but I do know that the Unionists did very badly and the younger Unionists deserted for the League en mass. I believe in Sind there was an ML coalition government. The Frontier was of course pro-Congress--I believe the eventual referendum there was indeed rigged by the British to ensure that it gave the ``correct`` result.

However, all this being said, I don`t think that the pre-partition AIML could be called a Leninist-cadre party the same way that the JI was/is. The AIML was much closer in spirit and organization to Bhutto`s PPP: a populist/authoritarian mass-ish (pardon the mangled English) party dominated by the establishment but with its own wing of armed enforcers and thugs.

Mind you, this is the ``new`` AIML, the one that eventually ``won`` Pakistan. The old AIML was a minority elite party that represented nobody but itself.

Can this board get back to the original post please? This is once again degenerating into

an indo-pak fight.



There are a lot of meaningful issues that can be discussed in the context of the topic. I was looking forward to hearing economic, political, military, religious views of other countries in the region. Their worries, hopes, aspirations and fears of/from India, the Big Kid on the block.

This board started with some good write ups earlier and I hoped to gain more insights from the enlightened here. I particularly endorse Sadna`s post #25.

In my opinion India is the poor man`s USA in South Asia. If India grows economically the region flourishes. If India slows down, the region might not slow down, but it won`t prosper either. The economies of South Asia and consequently the lives of large population of the ordinary citizens in South Asia (outside India) can be influenced by his government`s relationship with India.

There might be some who disagree with this notion, but let`s assume a SAFTA situation - If India starts buying or selling any everyday commodity or goods ranging from onions to locomotives, the prices in the local market can change dramatically. This is in turn will effect can jobs,industries and livelihoods.

But do the other countries really hate and fear India? Is freer movement impossible? But is this acceptable to the people and to the governments? Do they realize the economic potential? What are the cultural issues?

Looking for non-core-issue kind of replies from all of SA.

Vicky