Mecca or Mohenjodaro?

Re: Harish, # 65

Now we seem to be getting somewhere.

Yes, if you use similar, I think we can agree with each other.

However, without wanting to split hairs, I would say that I still dont think Indians or Pakistanis who lived close to each other had identical cultures...because they share everything in common (eg language, history, etc.)except...religion...which does instill some differences...but yes they are (very) SIMILAR.

As for the Indians who migrated to Pakistan...well, `native` Pakistanis and they dont have identical culture either, as is evidenced by the often bitter ethnic strife that has happened in Pakistan.

What I am saying is that it is important to recognise the differences as well as the similarities between not just Indians and Pakistanis but between Pakistanis and Pakistanis, etc.

Pakistan was founded on the basis that the differences were sufficient to warrant an independent state...which I agree with. That shouldn`t and needn`t be interpreted as hatred or dislike for Indians...simply a desire for self determination.

rgds,

Mujnooh Khan.

Analyze this to death if you want, but the fact doesn`t change. When you speak Urdu, I understand you and when I speak Hindi, you understand me. Drop your Chief Executive off in a village in India and no one will turn twice to look. Now tell me the two aren`t related Azam pig.

I see where you`re coming from though. With little else around you to feel good about, you can always count on revisionist and biased interpretations of history to anounce your ancestral superiority. I too am really a Viking, despite my brown skin and dark hair.

re fuzair

``Now, if you will excuse me, I want to put on my smoking jacket, light up a cigar (a Don Diego this time), pour a glass of my favorite single malt (Glenmorangie),...``

Praise the Lord, brother! I will be joining you (but I`ll opt for Glenlivet instead, if it`s okay)

Re: Shamyl`s posts

Actually, I did read the article. Its pretty clear that Azam is not talking literally about Mohenjodaro`s influence on Pakistan versus that of Islam`s but that Mohenjodaro is used as a codeword for indigenous influence--by that I presume he refers to Hindu influence. I realize that ``indigenous influence`` is very awkward usage but I can`t think of a better term right now.

No matter how hard we try to disguise it with names with Syed or Persian origins or Central Asian/Afghan origins (if you believe my paternal grandmother, her line is pure Afghan for the past umpteen generations) guess what folks, we all have more than a touch of the tarbrush and the brush is a Hindu one.

I am not surprised that this post appeals to the obscurantists among us since the author`s mistakes clearly indicate that the level of his scholarship is at par with their`s. That is, non-existent. Let me pick out just one complete howler. ``Urdu is written in the Arabic script. This is a major contribution. The Urdu language derives primarily from Arabic and Farsi. Farsi itself is based on Arabic.``

As others have pointed out on this thread, Urdu has a North Indian grammar with some Persian and Arabic vocabulary. This is a lot like English: French/Latin vocabulary superimposed on a Germanic grammar. No one but a complete ignoramus would call English a Romance language. It is a Germanic language.

No matter how many Arabic words we toss in and how much we mangle our pronunciation--Ridwan instead of Rizwan, or Ramadan instead of Ramazan and I am still waiting for the ultimate abomination, Bakistan--Urdu will still remain a South Asian language. Similarly, no matter how much Arabic our Arab wannabes learn, they will not become Arabs but will be condemned to remain mere Pakistanis.

And the last time I looked, Persian was not derived from Arabic. Arabic (and Hebrew) are Semitic languages NOT Indo-European ones. Persian is very much an Indo-European language with some Arabic vocabulary. You could possible make a case (a bad one but more plausible than the tripe argued by the author) that Arabic was derived from Hebrew. Actually, given this line of reasoning, since we use words like ``TV,`` or ``radio,`` or ``typewriter,`` or many other English words, in Urdu, Urdu is really based on English!

You see the absurdity of this line of reasoning? A defender of this article could argue that this is just one minor error, it does not detract from his general thesis. Maybe. Or maybe it just shows how poor is his research and logic.

Regards to all.

PS: F_K, I hate to disappoint you but, in my misspent youth, between rounds of boozing--Black Label of course--I too played your true Pakistani sport, polo. However, I was taught by the Pakistani Army in Mona and we used the old British Indian Army`s method of training cavalry officers and sowars how to ride, jump and play. Nothing ``authentic`` about our polo since we could actually ride Now, if you will excuse me, I want to put on my smoking jacket, light up a cigar (a Don Diego this time), pour a glass of my favorite single malt (Glenmorangie), and apply some Fair and Lovely to my brown arms and dream of being white. TTFN.

Re: Shamyl #73

Shamyl,

It’s called the dog whistle tactics.

Blow a dog whistle, and you won`t hear much of a sound. But the target of the whistle -the dogs - can detect a sound beyond the audible range of the rest of us, and will react to it. Two quite different messages are contained within the one action - the one benign and the other designed to be heard and heeded only by the ears tuned to it. For example, the author has ridiculed the indigenous cultures, and yet he hasn’t done so unequivocally.

The beauty of this tactic is that if your critics claim they have detected your true meaning, you can always accuse your accusers of mischievously misinterpreting your words!

Bina and others who are critical of this piece, detected the malignant assertions of the author, and you being the dog, and spokes person of the author at the same time, are accusing us of misinterpreting the authors words.

Re:Zahra #76

Zahra Bibi,

perhaps you are right about the context thing...as for the sweeping statements i sometimes make, i am working on it..cool?

Stay happy!

RMS Azam:

What more can be said about a buffoon who spells his name like an inscription upon an out of currency antiquated coin.To him,perhaps it elevates his IQ a bit.Ashfaque Ahmad,the short story writer,writes how Mumtaz Mufti,Uxi`s father,grovelled and begged him to do something for his son---``O jee ubb uxi ka kya banay gaa``.Perhaps to cajole him to use `influence` upon Q.U.Shahab---who Mumtaz thought of as nothing short of a demi-god.The National Arts council stint & then the spin-off into this Lok-virsa stone-henge has made many a tongue wagging.I still wonder what `qualities` & `qualifications` were needed to to make these birds of clay from the ruins of the Dero of Silence & breathe spirit into them to make them fly.Such `miracle` workers are already breathing heavily, post socialism & communism,on the drip of secularism & humanism.Please let them rest.

The muslim voice is getting ever more thunderous & it would become very `in` & faddish among these metemorphosis-prone munafiques once the Farangi-lands embrace it & `exports` it back to these wheatish-coloured wanna-be whites. Obviously Emex & Lux are not working.

Alas Alas they do not even learn from one of their own & the greatest thinker poet of the last century.Let me refresh their `minds`.

Panjabi Musulmaan

``Mazhab mein bohut taaza pasand iss kee tabiyaat

kr lay kaheen manzil tho utarta hai bohut juld

tahqeeq ki baazi ho tho shirkat naheen krta

ho khel murredi ka tho hrta hai bohut juld

taaveel ka phunda koi sayyad lagaaday

yeh shakhe nashaiman say utarta hai bohut juld.``

A L L A M A Iqbal

(In matters religious he is flippant and he does not dwell & stay at one station long enough.Where research is the vocation,he does not

partake in it.If blind following is the order of the day he is `game` in a hurry.And when the proposal is baited by some `pragmatism`,then he falls for it with gusto & relish)

with sincere apologies to those Panjabis who do not subscibe to Un-Islamist mindset.

Fairdinkum (Post# 64):-

I sincerely suggest that you should go back and read in what context I was saying what I said. I think Jagdeep`s post had very good points though they needed few addendums. My post was addressed to Jagdeep, if you read carefully. I doubt you could gather what I was implying. I am in no mood to explain that to you. Sorry, no time.

Take Care

PS: Please make an effort to contemplate first when you read something that is not ``clear as mud``. It will refrain you from putting forth sweeping statements/phrases. I hope you understand this at least.

Re # 65

dear mujnooh sahib,

i think you and i are harping on the wrong points in each other`s posts. now let me try to sum up:

you disagree with the author`s assertion that islam is the sole basis of pakistani culture. based on what i know, i agree.

you disgree with me for using the word ``identical`` when talking about the respective cultures of india & pakistan.

you are right. i should not have used the word ``identical.`` ``similar`` would be more appropriate because eventhough indians who live near the pakistani border and especially those indians who migrated from pakistan have an identical culture to pakistanis, there are many indians (particularly those from the south) who have similar (but not identical) cultures.

but the real point is that it is precisley because of this cultural similarity between india and pakistan that people such as the author of this article feel the need to totally rewrite any part of pakistani history that is remotely ``similar`` or linked to india.

regards,

harish

To Nigar Suleman:

Who says:

``In response to Shamyl`s observation about the Indus Valley civilization not being condemned would like to draw attention to the last few words of RMS Azam in which he refers to a miniscule ruined stupa of Moenjodaro.I think the heritage of Moenjodaro is greater than that.Any attempt to glorify something at the expense of another is symptomatic of the self-righteous mindset that we find ourselves mired as a society. He states unequivocally ``the Islamic civilization is superior..``.

Ok maybe the author should not have said that. It was a politically incorrect statement to make

BUT....today we find MOSQUES AND NOT STUPPAS ALL OVER PAKISTAN. Also, from a purely architectural point of view, I think the Badshahi Mosque in Lahore is not only bigger but more beautiful than the Mohenjodaro Stuppa (just a personal opinion!).

Also, with over 50 Muslim countries the heritage of Islam is a tad bit greater than Mohenjodaro`s heritage, don`t you think! We have the OIC and not the OMC ;)

Also, the fact that the Islamic civilization exists today whereas the Mohenjodaro civilization doesn`t exist today is also an indicator as to which civilization has had a greater impact on the world, let alone Pakistan.

Shamyl

To Bina:

Who says:

``As for the author`s assertion that there are no influences in Pakistan save the Muslim one, it makes you wonder whether he actually lives in the same Pakistan as the rest of us do!``

- No where in the article has Mr. R.M.S. Azam made any assertion to that effect. Please quote the exact sentence and tally it with your statement above. The author is merely countering Mufti`s assertion that Islam has no cultural influence in Pakistan.

For ALL:

Most of you guys have not read the author`s article properly or have misread it entirely.

Mr. Azam has NOT said anywhere in his article that no other culture exists in Pakistan. He is merely saying that Islam does have a cultural influence on Pakistan which Mufti denies and that Islam`s influence over Pakistan is stronger than Mohenjodaro which existed 5,000 years. This is TRUE. We are not talking about Baluch, Sindhi, Punjabi cultures here. We are talking about MOHENJODARO AND THE INDUS CIVILIZATION...DUH! So all of you get a grip! First READ THE ARTICLE CAREFULLY.

Shamyl

2 Shakir69:

Very few people choose to point out your argument for the reasons of partition. Perhaps religious and nationalist agendas have blurred our senses of history and driven us into blind alleys where history is allowed to be written `behind the back of people`.

About Bulleh Shah:

We should all heap praise on Junoon for their `Parvaaz` album released last year which has four songs with Bulleh Shah lyrics and one with Shah Hussains`. Whatever elders now very old remarks pertaining to new generation singers/`singers`, for every one person who knew about Baba Bulleh Shah, after Junoon`s album a thousand more know him. They have spread our cultural heritage far more than uninteresting and distorted history books.

In response to Shamyl`s observation about the Indus Valley civilization not being condemned would like to draw attention to the last few words of RMS Azam in which he refers to a miniscule ruined stupa of Moenjodaro.I think the heritage of Moenjodaro is greater than that.

Any attempt to glorify something at the expense of another is symptomatic of the self-righteous mindset that we find ourselves mired as a society.He states unequivocally ``the Islamic civilization is superior..``.

Nigar

RMS Sameer #56:

Yes, I know you and a few other who’d pick on the reference.


Would you like to join a quasi-select group, rms sameer?


regards,


rms temporal


PS:
Left something on the Oscars board for you.

RE: All

People, you need to chill out and cut back on this topic a wee bit!

The author is perfectly entitled to his views and he has a right to post them on this forum, but whether those views are right or wrong, depending on our own inclinations, is a subjective matter.

I, for one, do not agree with his view points and his attempts to exculpate history to suit his present perceptions. When he denies M`doro, he is in denial of his own cultural roots and no matter how hard he tries to put down M`doro, he is stuck with it, because despite his most fevered intentions, he can not change the past, which is a lot more difficult to change than the periodic amendments in Pakistani history. People, in my opinion, need to learn from the past and not try to reformulate it just to suit their present realities, or the lack of them.

Historical revisionism is the bane of a true intellectual pursuit and those who indulge in it, are misserving themselves, their communities, their nations and most importantly, are creating a false sense of future expectations and are setting the stage for their own final betrayal and disillushionment.

As the ancient Greeks once said, ``the past is the future``. My advice to such people is try to undertand the past, because your past has direct bearing on your future!

Ciao!

Re: Zahra #63

You say:

“Punjabi poetry has far more depth than Urdu poetry. “

“Urdu poetry has its own beauty but when one listens to Late Nusrat Fateh Ali reciting Bulleh Shah`s Kalaam, the words simply pierce through the human body and impinge on the heart. Whereas, ones does not feel that way when Mirza Ghalib is eloquently recited by Jagjeet Singh.”

Well, to start with, it is not that easy (or wise for that matter) to compare and pass judgments on the poetry/literature of two different languages. Secondly, you are comparing Ghalib with Bulleh Shah which, coming from you, is a bit disappointing.

A little naive, perhaps.