Mecca or Mohenjodaro?

Interesting article on the merits and demerits of apples and organges! Though, I agree with some of the author`s contentions, there is much in the article, which I tend to be in disagreement with.

Overall, a thought provoking article, but as usual secularism is four letter word in Pakistan and the author delves into that mindset, when he shows his personal bias against it, which colors the tone of his article accordingly.

Ciao!

WHAT A RELIEF,

At last the article I had been looking forward to is here.

``There is a small group of pseudo-intellectuals in Pakistan who wish to see Pakistan secularized and de-Islamized. This small band of people who wish to ape and mimic the West suffer from a serious inferiority complex and do not wish to see reality as it is.`` Yes, I know them, most are on the chowk.

I lokk forward to your next article, a nation created out of TNT, two nation theory, what should its destiny be, what should it excel.

``It would have made no difference to the creation of Pakistan if Mohenjodaro existed or not. On the other hand, it would have made all the difference in the world if Mecca existed or not.``

So what you are saying is that all muslims were imported to the region of Pakistan, and before Islam came there was no one living on the plains of Indus? There would have been no people had there been no Mohenjodaro. And there would have been no Pakistan had there been no people. You seems like another victim of Pakistan Studies.

This is an ill-informed and clearly biased article. Far from dispassionately and rationally discussing the issues, it blindly endorses and grossly oversimplifies the `Pakistan is Islam` concept without seriously engaging the subject.

To take just one example: the author asks (rhetorically, I assume), ``(W)hy are the 135 million Pakistanis such religious Muslims?`` Two false assumptions are made here. One is that all Pakistanis are Muslim. The other is that all Muslims are religious. If the question is rephrased, though, it can easily be answered. Why are most Muslim Pakistanis Muslim? Because their parents and grandparents were Muslim.

And one doesn`t need to have been at the `hallowed` halls of the Ivy League or Oxbridge to know that.

Uxi Mufti has been a dedicated folklorist who has been painstakingly collecting folklore all over Pakistan, especially associated with local sufi saint. Professor Dani is probably the most eminent anthropologist in the history of Pakistan. Most of his former students have nothing but utmost praise for him as a superb teacher. Disagreeing with his point of wiew is one thing, disrespectful of him another.

I am in no position to define what constitutes a culture but my perception is that language, dress, food, pottery, customs and art would be the dominant defining variables.

The Author has already conceded most of these variables to desi geography in the same way as tundra Eskimos could not be vegetarian or fasting for six months at a time. Yet several desi customs related to day-to-day life, marriage and funeral rites have much less to do with the geography than with the traditions developed over time as the result of historical interactions. Almost throughout the known history of sun-continent prior to British colonialism, it has been governed by a system of vassals and yeomen which is very inefficient way of transplanting the value system and culture of the rulers to the populace at large. The development of culture largely remained independent of the political realities.

Urdu in literary form has many Arabic and Persian words but the spoken Urdu in the Pakistani cities is not much difference from the Hindi or Hindustani spoken in the major north Indian cities. Moreover, the local vernaculars have even less Persian and Arabic words, and the influence of Persian can, in part also attributed to the common ancestry of Persian and Sanskrit based languages in addition to pre-Islamic Persian and persianized Greeks (Bactrians, Selucids) rule over most part of Pakistan.

The Arabic script of Urdu is a non-issue. Bengalis, Malay and Indonesian Muslims are no less Islamic though they do not have Arabic script. It may sound funny, but if British had given independence to India five years earlier than 1947, it would have been actually Bengal seceeding from India based on TNT, and the people of present day Pakistan, given the third option, would not have liked to be part of India due to their historic rivalries with the people of Gangetic plains. The Arabic script had been around for centuries, Persian and then Urdu, and did not paly any significant role in defining seperate Muslim political identity before 1942.

quote ``There is a small group of pseudo-intellectuals in Pakistan who wish to see Pakistan secularized and de-Islamized. ``

And there is a large group of pseudo-intellectuals in Pakistan who wish to see Pakistan talibanised...no prizes for guessing which group Mr. Azam belongs to.

I agree with Ferozk, the article would`ve been more reasonable were it not for the underlying prejudice that the author appears to be having against all other historical, etc. sources constituting our culture.

A few points....:

* First of all, Mr. Azam appears to think that Islam is the be all and end all of our culture and history...invoking Islam as the dominant culture in Pakistan simply because of a prevalence of Mosques, etc. is rather absurd IMO, what about other factors? what about our foods, our music, our history, our background??

Mr. Azam says that he is from Lahore... what was happening in Lahore a few weeks back? yes, I am referring to our very pwn Kite flying festival...is that also derived from our Islam, Mr. Azam?

Our wedding festivals and methods embody both Islamic and non-Islamic rituals.

Our foods are derived from more than just Islamic lands.etc.etc.etc.

Invoking Islam as the sole source of our nationality is silly at best and disingenuous at worst, Mr. Azam appears to be having difficulty comprehending the fact that much more than Islam defines us:

``Islam is a culture and Islam is a nationality. Nationality in this sense denotes feeling of belonging to a defined cultural heritage and identity.``

My response : Read the above.

* Secondly, arguing that because Islam has contributed towards our languages and one sees mosques everywhere, etc. makes it our dominant culture, is also baseless. How about the USA or western Europe... Christianity has contributed as much to their languages, their names are derived from Christian saints, every town has a church... but I would not say that christianity defines their culture or Is the dominant culture. He himself goes to mention `subarban sprawls and skyscrapers` (in another argument) as constituting American culture...so how can you then go and pick ONE or Two items and use them to illustrate that point??

* Thirdly,

``How can anyone say they Islam has no cultural impact on Pakistan.``

Anyone saying that is as biased as you obviously are.

The whole article is quite obviously an exercise in dissing the culture of Mohenjodaro and extolling the virtues of Islam...and that is it. The author drivels on about how all other cultures feeding into todays Pakistan are dead, and Islam lives... it is this kind of zealot talk and mode of thinking which has contributing to the problems confronting Pakistan today... our people kill themselves for schisms in their religious outlooks (so much for the mythical homogeneous Islamic outlook of Mr. Azam).

I believe that we, Pakistanis, need to face the twenty first Century with a grip on reality, with an appreciation of ALL the cultural and historical facets which constitute us as a people s... we need to learn to celebrate ourselves as what we are...people of the indus, with Islamic, hindu, Bhuddist, and pre-Islamic/hindu cultures...that would be to face reality...unlike self-deluding individuals like Mr. Azam.

Mujnooh Khan.

In attempting to thrust forward the message of ``Islamic superiority`` not only is RMS Azam going to ridiculous lengths but is almost perpetrating a kind of cultural tyranny.

There does not appear to be a pressing need to condemn the Indus Valley civilization.This is one remarkable aspect of Muslims in general,they never really feel real ties with the land that they adopt.

Nigar

Pakistan has got to find a more rational raison d`etre than Islam and India-phobia. Its relevance in the world to come may well depend on that reformulation.

The learned counsel quotes at length from the Quaid-e-Azam on several occasions but overlooks his maiden address to the Constituent Assembly where Mr Jinnah hoped for a day when in his Pakistan ``Hindus will cease to be Hindus, and Muslims will cease to be Muslims, not in a religious sense... but a civic sense as common citizens of one nation.``

I must say your article is very well written,but again a little more tune to history is missing.

Once again,many thanks for little reflection on our heritage, and as a sindhi i find it interesting.

RMS Azam:

May Allah bless you a thousand times over. This is exacly what we need more & more of on Chowk.PLease contribute & participate more often. Chowk is getting infested with the secularists & humanists (most recent refuge for the scoundrels from the gutters of socialism & communism).The good news is that their`s is a dwindling number.Most of them are the ignorants who have somehow determined that the entire storehouse of `learning` is encompassed in the english alphabets.It is unfortunate that we have to use this weapon to annihilate their mindsets.

If,instead of you,this article was written under the pen-name of a maulana or maulvi or from a madressa pupil you would have witnessed salvos of farangi `intellectualism`, hurled in your direction.

I am very happy that you mentioned that you are a vakeel & that you play a pakistani sport.These third rate `technical` kind of amreeka-droolers have the slave-gene which appeases & pleases them no end when they see such qualities mentioned.I believe we should always use them to our advantage.

It is a lot of fun to see that sometimes the same piece of writing elicits a diametrically opposite response, entirely depending upon under which name it is presented.I discovered that at a very early stage in my farangi-drenched school when an essay containing muslim names would get me less marks but praised very highly if I demonstrated farangi name & place dropping techniques.It was hilarious to see once an english ``O`` level teacher deducting a lot of marks from a composition of `mine` ditto-copied from the very grammar book she used as a text.The reason? I had just changed the english names to muslim names & english locales to Pakistani ones.Hinting that one drinks & fornicates and annonces with impunity to all & sundry also `elevates` the IQ a few notches.Mentioning that you must go for namaz suddenly shrivells your IQ in the brownie-farangi mindset.

``The cure of their ailment is nothing but in the use of a lancet``

The days of the sandhursts,cambridge,& harvards are over;at least in the fields of `learning` which were meant to subjugate us.I believe that we still have to keep a low profile & continue to placate the farangi(like Qadeer Khan) until we are strong enough to be in a position to be reckoned by them & their hash-brownies.

``Baada hai neem-russ abhi,shauque hai narassa abhi

Rehnay doo khum kay sur pay tumm,khisht e kalisya abhi``

[(The `wine` is,as yet not ready,your desire to `drink` is also not yet properly whetted.Let the brick of the west(farangi) stay on as a lid on the wine-still(to increase boiling pressure) ......lest the fizz is lost before the `wine` is ready]

A L L A A M A Iqbal.

wassalam

This is in response to Nigar Suleman below who says:

QUOTE:``There does not appear to be a pressing need to condemn the Indus Valley civilization.This is one remarkable aspect of Muslims in general,they never really feel real ties with the land that they adopt.``UNQUOTE

I don`t think Mr. Azam is `condemning` the Indus Valley civilization. In fact, in his article he referred to it as one of the `great` civilizations of the world. This article is in response to Uxi Mufti`s article ``Roots of National Identity`` which briefly stated that Pakistan`s culture has more to do with Mohenjodaro than Mecca which in my opinion is not true. Uxi Mufti takes a swipe at Mecca and overestimates Mohenjodaro. Mr. Azam here is merely saying that Mecca has more importance in Pakistan`s life than Mohenjodaro and that is an accurate statement and he`s right.

Overall, a good article by R.M.S. Azam. I think Pakistan raison d`etre and ideology needs to be highlighted.

Also, referring to the author as trying to `Talibanize` Pakistan is in one mistatement. Nowadays it has become fashionable to label whoever speaks in defence of Islam as a `taliban` or a `fundamentalist`.

Shamyl

An Interesting critique and comparison!

I would beg to differ with the writer in numerous examples that he narrated. I understand that the writer is trying to enlighten the readers on Civilization = Religion than saying Civilization + Religion = 0.

It is the beauty of the religion that Muslims all over the world with “different cultural backgrounds” perform the same rituals as part of their faith. I will take an example of Namaz. You would not see a Nigerian Muslim offering his prayers in his local language and an American Muslim offering them in English (Barring cases where there are converts). We will see most of the Muslims offering their prayers in Arabic, in their own dialects, wearing their native dresses. So there must be something “Native” to those lands!



Therefore, culture is different from religion!

Religious norms have embedded in cultural practices, but not all the Muslims were/are born Muslims. When Shah Wali-Allah started preaching Islam there were people on the face of earth that existed, to whom he conveyed the message. All the Muslim rulers preached Islam and never ruled states where all and sundry were Muslims. If I see the article in light of my above argument, then I find it light in weight.

Let’s take another example: Marriage Ceremony in Lahore. I have yet to attend a marriage in Lahore, where there was no Mehndi and Mayoan. I have grown up in Lahore myself therefore speak from experience. Were they prescribed in the religion?

Religiously, I have heard of Nikaah and Walima only. So it is pretty simple. Now, a point can be raised that we are practicing wrong customs. I disagree with that. If you want to have a Mehndi and/or Mayoan then that is your way of celebration and performing the local Rasoom’. {I will refrain from expressing my views on that}

So, there are two components in this marriage saga. One is the core and the other surrounds the core. The core is same for all the Muslims but the surrounding elements will be different based on the cultural backgrounds. Marriages in Pakistan will be different from marriages in South Africa or Middle East.



As pointed out by Sameer JB, Mujnooh and few others, each country has its customs, rituals, cuisine, arts, crafts, dresses etc and all of them are native to that country only.

On a lighter note, what about the stories of Heer/Ranjha, Laila/Mujnooh, Shireen/Farhad, Puran Bhagat (I have recently read this one, and amazingly beautiful and sad) are you telling me that they never existed? Were they fallacies? I know you never said that but by ignoring the “importance of culture” you are “negating” the very existence of the above.

Please do not equate Culture with Religion. You have quoted:

``````God says in the Qur’an that “I have divided you amongst nations and tribes so that you may recognize one another”. “””

I am surprised after that you had an urge to engage in controversial concepts in your article.

As an ending note, please pick one of the following:

a) Allah Baili

b) Rub Raa’kha

c) Fi-Aman’Allah

d) Khuda Hafiz

e) Allah Hafiz

This argument is an inevitable outcome of the theory that the Muslims of the subcontinent constitute a people distinct from all the other inhabitants of the subcontinent.

The last time this argument came up seriously, it was to say that ``Bengaliness`` was outweighed by Islam, and resulted in a war. Before that, when any shared culture in the subcontinent was considered to be outweighed by Islam, it resulted in the Partition and attendant violence. So it is best to keep out of this fight.

One might attend with interest to discussions on the legitimacy of ``Kashmiriyat`` -- which is an attachment to a geographically localized culture.

-arun gupta

re farangi_kush who spews

``The cure of their ailment is nothing but in the use of a lancet``

Spoken like a true Talebanist! Crushing dissent is the hallmark of the cowardly mullahs who fear that debate and discussion may unravel their phony claims to rule the roost.

Oh, since you despise the English(Latin) alphabet so much, put your mouse where your mouth is and start sending posts in Urdu or Sanskrit. Let`s see how true of a farangi_kush you are.

RMS Azam’s article is a response to Uxi Mufti’s thesis. Mufti, according to Azam, suggests that “Islam is not the culture of Pakistan and that the culture of Pakistan is more correctly represented by Mohenjodaro.” As I am not aware of Uxi Mufti or his/her work, I picked three books from my library for quick reference. Uxi Mufti’s name does not appear in the index of any one of these book, namely, “The Cambridge Encyclopedia of India, Pakistan, Bangladesh, SriLanka, Nepal, Bhuttan and the Maldives” (ed. Francis Robinson), “Pakistan: The Identity of Culture” (Jameel Jalibi), and “Pakistani Culture: A Profile” (M. Yusuf Abbasi). Could someone provide a brief introduction to Uxi Mufti and his published works?

Sincerely, Bilal Ahmad

To those intellectuals (pseudo and otherwise) on Chowk who are talking of secularism:

I realize that you know what secularism means but just to make matters clear:

secularism: defined in the dictionary as ``worldly, keeping religious teachings out of matters such as education and government``.

My question to you is:

1. Do you subscribe to the above definition and advocate that Pakistan be governed along such lines?

2. How does this reconcile the history when the Muslim world was ruled on the basis of Islamic principles.

3. Are you saying that Islam is not valid? That it does not provide a true path for men to follow in their interactions and does not provide guidelines for them to rule by?

Or are you saying that those rulers were wrong and that they should have ruled according to ``secular`` principles?

Is this why you advocate not being ruled according to Islamic principles?