The Point

Yes Solitude I am in love with you .... I miss ... ahem .... being up your rearside.... you are just a dream ... well more like a horrible dream ... though not a nightmare .... you are more disgusting than scary ....

Post # 32 (Mr. Kush)

Thanks for a detailed analysis!

``Do you think what happened to her is really the part of our glorious traditions & superior value systems?``

-- May I know where does that superior value system reside? [Genuine Question]

Recently, I read an interesting statement on Chowk’s main page. It was under an article’s heading and stated - ``We possess a strict code of honor and a time-tested spirit of bravery and valor``.

The words were very impressive when read & written in black and white. It’s the practice of them that is real tough! Probably the writer should have identified that as well!

``Even today if you go to areas which are less affected by the western curse you`ll find that it is almost unimaginable that such thing could happen``

--Mr.Kush: I grew up in East myself and came to West for higher studies and have been working in US for approximately half a decade now. There is ``some`` law and order in West as compared to the ``anarchy`` in East. Though no system is perfect anywhere. Personally, I feel that being in West, I do not have to worry about many silly things that are prevalent in East. It is an ironic fact! Read the CNN Article that someone quoted here.

--Do you think a woman, who never left the premises of her four walls, could come forward and write about such an incident that Shandana wrote? Do you think if the ``the writer`` had not taken the stand to resolve the matter on her own, she could ever muster up the courage to handle such a situation confidently in future? After all, a woman is an individual like a man, and she has to move around in the world on her own as well. Would there be a man always around, to stand by her? In fact, should there be a man always by her side?

--I feel that you have a tendency to generalize ``West = Curse only``. There are many good points of West as well. Somehow we are hesitant to accept them. There is authenticity in Eastern Culture but there are ``Eastern Curses`` as well. Unfortunately, in the East, you will not hear about the ``Eastern Curses`` very openly as the Eastern Society further nurtures them. I hope you can understand that and I do not need to put forth any examples.

``Imran Khan, Clinton-----good good. Maulvi-looking----bad, very bad.``

--The above was a very naive statement. By saying the above, I feel that you undermined the intelligence and judgement of readers (men and women both). World is full of all kind of people. You can find a nobleman in the garb of a Mau’lvi whereas you can also find a debauch in the same garb. A clean-shaved can be a crook or a saint as well. You cannot generalize a man based on his looks i.e beard or clean-shave.

I feel you took it personally when the writer brought up ``a man with a beard``. Do not tell me that the criterion to judge a nobleman is by his beard? In fact, was it ever? Had that been the case then there would have been abundance of ``nobility`` and pointing out the noble men would be a piece of cake. :-(

``The subject of ``honor-killings`` is very complex and even the courts & mushharraf are `helpless` & paralyzed for a reason.``

--Helpless & Paralyzed? Are you kidding?

They are neither helpless nor paralyzed they are all chip of the old block! Just acting aloof towards the mentally sick fellow men!

I happened to hear the ambassador recently in D.C at an Engineering Conference. She began very eloquently while addressing the expatriates (scientists, engineers and technologists). The speech started with the technology development and how expatriates could assist the country. As she proceeded, there was a sudden twist. A briefing was delivered on the current affairs of Pakistan. During that she addressed the subject of ``honor-killing``, briefly and casually. It was mentioned in a statement or so that Pakistan does not support the practice of ``Honor-Killings``”. She was probably responding to the recent article in Washington Post. Somehow, she sounded like a puppet reading out words than even realizing the context and the meaning! I resisted my urge to question:

What do you mean by ``does not support”?

a)Is there any legislation underway?

If there is crime in the country then some laws should be passed. Just saying, ``does not support`` is living in a fool`s paradise.

b)Did a miracle take place to awaken the masses? And they realized the meaning of ``real honor”?

c)It was a nightmare and now it is over?

Many of my friends shared the same sentiments. In fact, few plan to bring it to her attention.

Suffice to say, the absence of the following is truly felt.

``We possess a strict code of honor and a time-tested spirit of bravery and valor.``

[I really liked the above line but did not want to read the article, as what is the use it would have been:-

Re: PM

I`ll try to clear the misunderstandings.

As to the social interaction, I am not talking about sex education per se, just a basic intro to how males and females should act with each other based on the precepts of Islamic teachings at an early age so these types of behaviors could be avoided. Teenagers in Pakistan, need to be educated about the ``changes their bodies are going through`` and they need to be given a reference on how to deal with the emotions of attractions, love, infatuations etc. Everyone in Pakistan knows that the teens and college students indulge in sex and many of them are sexually active, so instead of playing the osterich, we should address the problem, because by ignoring it, the problem will not disappear.

Yes, PM, you are right that social interactions are frowned upon in Islam, but is it a taboo in Islam to teach young people to respect each other`s privacy? I am not seeking to give a dejure status to sexual liberation in Pakistan, merely to suggest that education, teaching right from wrong, is the best solution to this problem.

PM, this a problem and it will not be solved if we pretend that it does not exist! In Pakistan, we are told that there no problems and the land of the pure is a perfect utopia for the faithful to dwell in perpetual bliss, but reality suggests something else altogether!!

PM, I live in the real world and in the real world one has to be pragmatic and pragmatism suggests that we need to find a complimentary balance between Islam and our western lifestyle choices. Pakistan will never be an Islamic republic and it will never to be allowed to be a westernized nation. Therefore, we have to find a place between heaven and hell, where we can exist with all our contradications. Pakistan can not exist as half Islamic and half western state; it has to be either of the one of the two, but it can never exist as the sum of these two different philosophies.

Either we become an Islamic state or we become a secular state, but we cannot any longer go on with this politically confusing charade!!!!

Ciao!

``Everyone just ignore Solitude`s babblings... ``

ooh I may have a fan (a pankha) . Maybe he is in love with me ? Does he wait for me to write something so that he can say ``everyone ignore him ... because I get jealous when people do because only I love solitude and solitude is all mine``.

A little obsessive and scary like the bearded and capped Mullahs who used to come all the way to my dorm (used to enter it illegally) and then used to harass me (I only like getting groped by non muslims with overtly sexual intentions).

Could it be some latent homo-erotic instinct where they were really attracted to me but felt they had to be violent and angry in order to touch me? You know there are ways of touching someone without being abusive (like shaking their hands, wouldnt that be civilized? - oh I forgot that is a western innovation and hence un islamic)

To those who always put exclamation marks after my handle (Solitude!!!!! you $%@$#@) please do NOT read what I have to write. Why do you feel compelled to read what I have to write ? Ask yourself that ? Are you torn by some erotic desire for me that you cannot display because your religion forbids you from doing so? Why torment yourself? Maybe if you stop seeing me you will stop ``loving`` me (out of sight out of mind, hunh ?).

Anyways I will stop flattering myself into thinking my readers ``love`` me and just live with the fact that they are doing their ``duty`` - yes they are making sure everyone knows I am [insert abuse here]. For a lot of people are really quite gullible and ignorant and may NOT be able to figure out that I really am [insert abuse here].

re Bina #49:

I was in complete agreement with you till the last sentence:

``Now what can we do to protect women?``

Fact is that the emancipated woman of today doesn`t want to be protected. As the rejoinder frequently goes ``Protect me from what?``. Women who say that actually deserve a lot of respect from me becuase they are at least standing by their convictions regarding the equality of the sexes. The other variety goes around using its femininity to advantage when it suits them and conveniently looks for Sir Galahad to come and rescue them when the going gets tough. Thanks but no thanks.

later

-sac

Everyone just ignore Solitude`s babblings... he just craves attention ...

Dear Anamika, Praveen, Saima Shah;

The Peshawar page is updated with descriptions to the pictures on your demand. I will do the rest tomorrow i.e. the psychedilic page and the Later... page.

www.angelfire.com/zine/gomal/next1.html

Rgds.

Zeemax

Urstruly #59:

I owe you an apology and an explanation. You are right, I do not use trashy language!

My response #44 to your #33 should be filtered in the light of #21 and #32 on this board.

(And there is past history, if you go to

http://www.chowk.com/bin/showr.cgi?filename=ophoenix_mar2000&r=10

and read #s 102, 103, 107, 110, 115, and 116.)


I hope you will understand where I am coming from. If you don’t I will apologise once again and move on.

Folks, sorry for this digression. Let us get back on the article.

regards,

temporal

RE: FerozK, Reply# various

Dear FerozK,

Thanks for sharing your critical and just analysis with us. Your approach is very pragmatic, focused and sincere.

Regards.

Ref Bina #: 49

``Men all over the world have molested women. This is a fact whether they live in segregated societies or open ones. Now what can we do to protect women?``

Buy an AK-47, Bina. I understand it is rather cheap in your land. You will definitely dis-invite unwanted attention. Concealed-carry doesn`t cut it; the guys might decide to take a chance.

I have to figure out the workings of an Instant Emasculation Apparatus. I shall publish details of it on the Chowk once I design it.

``It is the general North Indian culture that segregates the sexes. ``

Why yes it is the fault of those ``North Indian Hindus``? I forgot those hindus are to blame for everything aren`t they. Come to think of it that Maulvi sahab was short and scrawny and I bet dark like a negroe so he HAS to be a RAW agent for gawd knows all of us Pakistanis look like white, healthy aryan arabs , right ?

Allow me to tell you a little about N. Indian and S. Indian culture. In north india the elite of the Muslims reside (who could the elites be besides the kings and his forty wives? oh that would be the Mullahs who persuaded Aurangzeb to massacre hindus and levy taxes on them) From Luckhnow to Delhi there is a snobbish Muslim populace that prides itself in being more Muslim than the Arabs.

In South India things are a quite different. Muslims go to hindu temples and christian churches to pray with their fellows. Muslims are fewer in number (compared to the north) and the few Muslims there are very willing to compromise and adopt hindu values and cultures (they read gita and know the hindu myths) One of India`s top scientist has a Muslim name but he reads gita more fluently than the Quran (quran is arabic, the hindu scriptures are closer to telugu) In the north urdu is predominant in the south telugu and other local dialects resisted the babarism of the Arabs because Babar thought the women were ``too ugly`` (or dark skinned).

BTW isn`t ravina tandon, sri devi and many other Indian actresses from the south. I guess those arabs and mughals missed those women.

p.s. the problem is that we do not even know the problem - even though its festering and boiling out of mosques and madrasahs and afghanistans. Good luck my fellow countrymen. I am just hoping my passport remains valid until I can get the citizenship of some UN Islamic country.

``In a nutshell, my argument is simply that we, Pakistanis, should start blaming ourselves for our own misdeeds instead of afixing the cause of our problems on others or a host of external circumtances. ``

Whenever we raise our voices against this religion the Mullahs say ``But it is YOUR fault, you are not following the religion properly`` then we pray harder and we fast to our deaths and we are worse off than before and then the Mullahs say ``well it is a hard religion to follow, it not easy, the path is surrounded by thorns and brambles, this life is a test, you must not be tempted and take the easy way to love, money and happiness like those evil, dacadent, promiscuous and dirty westerners``

They make our lives hell and then say ``heaven awaits for you in the here after in this world god gives permission to the infidels to make a heaven on earth but wait till they die, they will rot in hell and you will have 70 virgins`` and like stupid oafs we take it all in. Meanwhile the Mullah`s sexually starved son is harassing women at the mall, the mullah is busy preparing the taweez and gandas and Islamic medicine for the women of the country (which he personally administers in his ``hujra``) sometimes he even ``cures`` little boys (in order to compete with his christian counterparts).

This is how the Mullah works : they keep young men and women from enjoying each others` company. Lack of sexual gratification causes, uneasiness and has historically been a major cause of hysteria (specially amongst women). These women are confused as ``possessed`` when they are really yearning for the cute boy in their class (oh I forgot ``co education`` is haram) They are taken to these Mullahs who definitely cure the innocent little girl`s ``sickness`` turning her into a life long ``mureed`` of the Maulvi Sahab.

Is that what you guys want ? It used to happen in mideval Europe but in Europe people threw religion out of their governments - but allowed a few fanatics to keep their religion (lest the fanatics whine ``oh how they persecute us just because we want to make life for everyone miserable``)

``you and your super liberalism``

I hope you were not referring to my posts. Let me clarify right now. I am NOT a liberal (I do not want to give those people a bad name) and I would much rather uphold ``wanton crassitude`` over your conservatism. Why ? because the common people are crass and crude and the common people are better than your elitist, religious, militaristic, feudalistic ``smooth``ness. That is why I like the Punjabi people - they are sincere and straightforward, even ``munh phat`` (open mouthed) and simple minded unlike the Imams/ Qaris (who are either too abrasive or too politician-like) I prefer ``crass and crude but true`` to dis honest, artificial & fanatical: ``if you bring Sahaba and rasool allah into this then I will kill you`` - that is pretty much the only straightforward thing that comes out of their mouths.

``Why, that was quite beautiful! It was not just breaking down the old temples but providing a vision of a new one.``

Why do we need temples my dear PM ? Why do we need me to provide visions. YOU are a visionary yourself. I say everyone can build their own temples. Everyone can be the god of their own temples. It is lazy to demand temples and ideaology that replaces Islam. It would be slavish and sluggish to demand alternatives from people like yourself. Besides the temples I build are often just small enough for one man (me) and too fragile. My temples are women.

There are no messiahs and prophets (only people who are turned into messiahs and prophets and gods). We do not have to look for Ataturks and Martin Luther Kings ( so why do you say ? ``so instead of looking-up to our CE, we should start looking for a martin luther king``)

I ask you my fellow human beings : why wait? or look up to anyone? What if I were to tell you that YOU ARE ATATURK and YOU ARE MARTIN LUTHER KING. YOU ARE EVERYTHING you are looking for. You are the King and the slave - why do you look for leaders? why do you hand over your proud reigns to others?

So pick up that butchers knife and head straight for your local masjid (just kidding), pick up those years of frustration and anger and helplessness and start speaking against the religion that has made you submit- the religion of ``submission`` (starting with your own : Islam, hinduism, christianity etc.).

Then watch the rage of those who have no temples of their own. Witness the helpless tantrums of those who are parasitically feeding off of ready-made (pre cooked and pre-canned) ``divine`` morality. Heed not their braying because they are slaves ``abd allah``- they are mindless ``samena wa ataana`` (we hear and obey) and are subhuman because they choose to submit (to Islam = ``submission``) they carry this life like a donkey bearing its burden (life is a test a burden) Be amazed at the caw-cawing of these vultures who feed off the dead carcasses of primitive 6th century morality. It is time we buried that 6th century morality 6 feet under the ground.

Dear Shandana!

May I suggest that, it is time that you should come down to the forum and explain about your motives behind writing this article. This article has widened the rift between two ``schools of thought`` on a seemingly non-issue issue.

Would you please care to explain to your readers whether you were trying to push an anti-religion agenda through this real or imagined incident depicted in your article or you just described an event, that may actually have happened in reality; or you just give your imagination a body of words, exactly as it occurred in your mind.

Could you please also explain whether it was your intention to get attention through exploiting people`s prejudices or ideals for that matter, or you were merely trying to make a point by showing the ugly face of the society.

Dear People,

I suggest that we should stop gouging each other`s eyes till Shandana gives us her version. This will help direct this discussion towards a meaningful and fruitful end. Hey! we might even be able to push government to pass stricter anti-harassment laws. How about that?

(from #54) ``You are taking things too literally if you are reciting phrases from the Koran, which was written thousands of years ago, in tune to the culture of the time.``

(and #53): ``I agree with you that the medival, or more accurately the dark ages, interpretation of Islam have a lot to do with this problem, but I still do not think that Islam should be held responsible for these types of acts.``

It is this kind of, IMO, intellectual dishonesty on the part of the eduacted that has brought Pakistan to the seemingly incredible pass of being controlled by the whims of political parties that garner two percent of the electoral votes.

In failing to call a spade a spade when one sees one; in seeking to hide behing fatuous but ultimately self-defeating arguments like `incorrect interpretation` or lack of `solid evidence`; in pretending that there is not enough in Islam to justify the actions of misogynysts; in conveniently ascribing all ulterior motives to religiously inspired action; in pretending that religion does not play part of a role in many such assaults (I think Ferozk got it right in saying that ``it makes it worse``) and in taking comfort that ``Oh, these things happen everywhere`` (no attempt to see why more so by the religious on the apparently non-religious in Pakistan); it is becasue all such self-deception and lack of balls that the Religious Extreme Right, esp. in a situation of economic hardship (but not ONLY) will do what the more (ba-ba-black-sheep- :)) educated will not-- interpret Islam in both spirit AND LETTER. And who can argue with them for doing that? You cannot say ``It is not Islam`s fault at all`` and ``No, don`t interpret Islam too literally`` in the same breath. That is intellectually dishonest.

Feroz, you say: ``There are many myriad factors for [male treating women as mere sex objects], but ignorance through a lack of education, exposure towards social interactions between males and females...``

Now, correct me if I`m wrong, but strictly scriptually speaking, are social interaction between males and females NOT frowned upon in Islam? (Maybe Solitude could pull out a few more verses and hadith here?)

``... frustrated and oppressed by the dogmatic nature of orthodoxy in Pakistan.``

Some people call that Pure Islam. Strictly going by the book, I think they are much more logically consistent than all the educated Muslim women on the chowk who pretend there is no religious inconsistency in reconciling working alongside males with their religious tenets.

``... I was not trying to suggest that, as you implied, that Islam is the sine qua non of all these problems.``

I apologize if I gave that impression. I have, in fact repeatedly claimed that we ought to lay AT LEAST PART of the blame on the doorstep of religion. (refer to first post to you, #39, or #41), something which I see no Muslim even beginning to do. (But I can understand this.. in a supossedly perfect system, the removal of one card could bring the house down).

For the record, and as I have stated before, I am generally impressed with Islamic teachings of justice and equity... But I think it hoeplessly behind the times when dealing with interaction of the genders, and I find it very unfortunate that educated folk cannot see (or admit) that in this regards, IT DOES foster unhealthy attitudes, especially if followed to the T. We keep hearing feeble excuses such as ``interpretation``. Tell me, how many different ways are there to interpret 4:34 or the ayats that Solitude quoted earlier?

``...In a nutshell, my argument is simply that we, Pakistanis, should start blaming ourselves for our own misdeeds instead of afixing the cause of our problems on others or a host of external circumtances.``

Yes, but we should also be wary of blaming the patient too much if the doctor is prescribing harmful medication.

``Self-critism is the first step on the road to intellectual honesty and we, in Pakistan, have never been intellectually or otherwise honest with ourselves! ``

I wholeheartedly agree!

regards,

PM

RE: Temporal! # 44

Mullah Omar Zindabad!

Pirsahib of Militaryshareef Zindabad!

Tunnel-Visioned Imbecile`s Zindabad!

Temporal!

You have confused me with above slogans. I couldn’t figure out a reason why you put those slogans in your reply. I have been thinking and came up with following three possibilities:

The first possibility is that those are your slogans or war cries. If that is true please ignore rest of my post.

The second possibility is that you are attaching those slogans to me. The only reason I could think of was that since I asked you to be decent that made you put me in that pigeonhole of your mind that is labeled with those slogans. I was wondering if Shandana is also in that pigeonhole since she is literally crying for some decency.

The third possibility is that you are absolutely clueless why you put those slogans there. In that case I would say that ``gata jayay banjaaraa``.

Like I said, Temporal!, you can do better than this, resist the temptation of mediocrity.