Nuns and Tawaifs

well..i do belive this guy should be killed by some brother in islam for misquouting the quranic ayahs and rediculing islam and allah message

:)

guess im a fanatic

``Do all men suffer from this or is it only a desi problem, this hide your sister but lust for others` syndrome? ``

I think it is less of a ``Desi`` problem and more of a ``conservative``s problem. All conservatives be they Mexican Catholics OR Irish Protestants OR Indonesian Muslims have the same ownership problems (and hence their countries are similarly impoverished and backwards). Since they view women as property (as ``fields to be ploughed in any way possible`` to quote a certain Holy Book) they would rather greedily salivate over the others` daughters and wives and protect their own ``stock`` behind veils and four walls. Conservatives put women in neat categories : mahrams and non mahrams (those you can have sex with and those you cannot have sex with). We believe sex is currency. Nikah literally means `` to copulate`` and marriage ``nikah nama`` is the license to copulate. So there are a lot of ``honor`` related , war like, primitive issues where men think they own their sisters and mothers and daughters - when in reality our women can handle themselves quite well. Our women are quit capable.
There is a lot of guilt involved as well. The men feel guilty for their desires and yet in their case their own hormones overpowers the guilt temporarily. But when they see the same desires in their fellow man they pounce on the victim and try to crucify him.
So it is not a ``desi`` thing. A lot of Indians are very open minded and know quite well that what goes around comes around. If you allow love to flow freely someday it will come back to you. They respect the decisions of their sisters and mothers and daughters (the modern secular ones) and allow them to make their own decision from marriage to career choices. I have noticed the same thing in most enlightened European and American men. They do not interfere in the love interests of their sisters or mothers or daughters unlike in Karachi where family feuds emerge around two people loving each other. In Karachi brothers kill their sisters for suspecting them for ``dishonoring`` the family. I read a recent news item where this air line hostess living in gulberg. She was a single woman, earning more than her father and two brothers combined! She was butchered with a knife by her own brother. His excuse ``she was having an affair``.
In the USA they made a home video out of two palestinian parents stabbing their daughters. The father stabbing and the mother restraining the daughter - with the mother screaming in arabic ``why wont you die? die quickly! die quickly!``. They were stabbing her because she was carrying the quarterbacks child and was planning on getting married to him.

:-(

;-)

:-)

regards

wow!

pardon me for having seen east is east twice over the last few weeks, but after reading your piece, i had to say ..... B-A-S- *- *-R-D!!!

don`t get me wrong, i tend to say that in fits of pure delight.

its a feeling like pasternak describes in one of his autobiographical works....

``no sooner than the music starts to play, your eys fill with tears and they roll down your cheeks, and you cry, not because you are sad, but because the path to your heart has been found fo swiftly and unerringly``

nuns and tuwaifs had that same quality, keep it up!

mohammad ali

--

Solitude/Shiraz #25, 26, 27

My apologies. On two counts. I should have paid more attention and respect to your nom de plume. And I should have kept in mind that old scientific adage about the process of observation, for I truly liked your writings (including the curves you are now trying to throw, to borrow from the baseball terminology). And no disrespect to the good folks back home either. (Make it three counts). Cause and effect relationships are complex, besides, my emphasis was on the society at large. After all, “It takes a village…”.

Princes #23

You raise basic questions. I can only share my thoughts.

I think questions and conflicts between faith and reason, society and individual, control and growth are to be resolved within ourselves and if possible, without frameworks imposed from outside. Doesn’t mean one should not seek to learn from others, just that one need not feel bound to their views.

How one makes peace with oneself may not necessarily work for others. For that matter, since we keep thinking, what makes sense to us today, may look flawed tomorrow. At least one should be open to such a possibility.

dear athar shiraz,

what is wrong with the squirty stuff? absolutely nothing. i`m a big fan of it myself. the only problem is that, like most hair products, it`s one application only. metaphorical squirty stuff on the other hand, can be applied, reapplied, and then scraped off and smelt again (though everyone else might not find that prospect as appealing as i do).
what does `keep writing` mean? it means keep writing. not because you`re not good enough yet, but because you`re fun to read, and one of the cardinal rules of substance abuse (and here again i refer to the squirty stuff, excessive imbibing of which can be addictive) is that you must have more of it. immediately. or you get all antsy and start pacing (again it might just be me).
`i think you live`. why go to paris to verify that? come here. be a fly on the wall. watch us roll around in sticky stuff and try desperately to extricate ourselves. and then, maybe, you wont see that comment as condescending or pretencious, but merely envious.

shandana

athar saheb,

you, sir, are a gifted individual. i know another athar from lucknow, who is equally gifted - in chemistry.

are athars endangered species?

regards

``Could it be that the author has a professional or academic background `` - Reply #: 20

No I don`t. Self taught like everyone else. Have a degree in Engineering if that counts as academic background.

``is he a young,``

Yes

`` energetic person``

counting the pile of porn on my shelf - yes (just kidding - remember kids porn gives you AIDS!)

`` whose sensitivity ``

well there you have me pinned down perfectly. I must humbly admit that I am very sensitive - why just the other day I cried while peeling onions, I said to myself ``these poor stinking onions, so mushy on the inside - why should these smelly bas_tards be subjected to a knife soaking in the blood of my roommate`s annoying kitten ? why oh why fair onion? this is an unjust world!``

I hope the ladies are reading this - btw my number is [...censored by editors... note from editors: sorry shiraz you have to give up harassing every Tammy, Dickenson and Harriett by threatening them with your number ]

``and honesty``

brutally honesty . . . at times - called my mother fat the other day, for which she disowned me (for the third time) now you tell me is that the kind of treatment an honest man deserves ?

``is he a smart writer?``

well I have been told I LOOK smart when I write- I take out that shiny laptop in front of all dem gals and type away with that pensive thoughtful expression on me face (along with the eye glasses I often steal from my mother - that was when disowning #2.567 , yeah it has #s after the decimal because you have to keep track of the important disownings in your life with integers and the minor ``angry`` / ``passionate`` disownings with inexact floating numbers because those are all ``crimes of passion`` and they don`t really mean it - I know because at those moments the lawyers are not there forcing me to read the revised wills and restraining orders etc. ).

`` both mature and creative ``

mature ... there is that word again. I knew I should have been prepared for it. My father always uses it when referring me and then scoffs as though a fly had travelled up his nose.

Creative- no way! I use condoms and have nothing to do with any of the women who claim they are bearing my children. I am a Muslim after all ... I dont indulge in such hanky panky with women- I stick to exploring the Sunnah with my boy friends in the Tablighi jamaat and MSA and Jamaate Islami and ...

``Well, your response seems to clear up some of those mysteries. ``

ouch ...

Those things are a mystery to you after reading my articles - oh that one hurt.

Essensaur, thanks a lot for your kind words. I am thrilled to have intelligent people reading my work. That is the only kind of readership I want. In fact if I could I would attach the following to every article of mine :

``If you are a homophobe, if you hate people because of their religion, color, sex or nationality, if you are sexist , if you are racist, if you feel to `lightly beat` women is permissible, if you feel to genitally mutilate minors is OK and beating children for not praying is OK - please do me a favor - leave me alone, DO NOT READ WHAT I WRITE!``

``which attracts the reader’s attention and keeps it riveted`` - Reply #: 15

Was it ? wuz it riveted , sah ?

``For those intrigued by Freud’s truths, there are those memories of the mother resurfacing at a “turning point”, not to mention the projection / rationalization of the sense of guilt by seeing a whore in the female that you feel attracted to. `` Reply #: 15

Well I am very intrigued - elaboration would be appreciated.

``Keep writing Shiraz`` Reply #: 15

Why do people always say that ? It always leaves me wondering what they are talking about. Did they like my work and want to read more of it - if yes then pleeease say so because I desperately need a bit of ahem critical encouragement - I think that is essential for growth. Particularly after all the attacks (the ones that pass through the editors are nothing) I get abuses flying all the way to my parents` telephone (since I post my work on less controlled free forums also).



Sometimes saying ``I love it`` works (even though it is vague) but what I really love are detailed analysis and critical insights that readers come up with. I love it when people email me from France and thank me for helping them understand the behaviour of the Pakistani husband who deserted them so that he can obey the wishes of his mother and inbreed with the nearest cousin.

But what does ``keep writing`` mean ? Does it mean ``unhh you are almost there but if you keep on writing you could make reading your work tolerable``? I often interpret it as ``Need to write more - not good enough!``

``The problem is, you have too much testosterone . . .`` Reply #: 8

So is it a problem or not ?

I am getting a bit weak in the knees with you talking about ``too much`` testosterone followed by ``. . . circumcision . . . I thought you would like . . .`` - Reply #16

You thought wrong. The article may have been interesting to you because it is typical of what circulates amongst MSA cult members: ``brothers and sisters read more about the glory of our perfect faith`` but it is the same song you can hear from every clone, drones and Borg from every mosque. Originality and individualism and desire for change does not suit slaves.

``dear s shriaz`` - Reply #: 17 Slink/ Shandana

It is A. Shiraz as in - Athar Shiraz.

``When i said testosterone . . . i simply meant it as a metaphor for life force, not squirty stuff you aim at women or men ``

What is wrong with squirty stuff ? and what is so exalted and lofty about metaphorical testosterone(sp?) ?

There was once a girl who sighed while taking a shower with some guy ``If only sex was always like this - it would not have such a bad name and so many women would not be turned off by it``. I think it is the obligation of every man to use his testosterone so responsibly that everyone falls in love with it.

Remember that scene in There`s Something About Mary ? where Diaz accidentally uses what looks like creamy white gel ? Why is that every guy`s favorite part because rarely does the real testosterone (sp?) get accepted with such delight.

Women are beginning to accept it more and more but just a few years ago in the US it was considered ``paleed`` (filthy) until Bill Clinton and Monica Lewinsky and Hillary Clinton came along.

Women feel that delighting in the fluids of men would make them look bad : promiscuous etc.

Do you ever see a guy go ``I think it is wonderful that you are overflowing with breast milk madam, ... er ... the metaphorical kind I mean !``

Who would not kill a new born babe for a little suckle ? for a little breast milk?

Now that responder #17 is truly regretting making that statement . . .

``I think you live``

Thanks that is awfully kind of you. I would have to go to Paris to really test the truth of that statement. They say the snow is pink, the women are hot blooded and you have Gerard Depardiue (sp?) and my fellow Pakistanis love French laws and customs more than the Fatwas & customs of 6th century Arabia.

BTW my 20 yr. old, 16 yr. old and 12 yr. old sisters are also reading all my works from Karachi. Hello Gul, Sahar, Ayesha :) [ *wave *] and welcome . . .

Don`t let Abbu Jan know you are reading deviant material designed to lead you astray.

p.s. I confess I cajole my relatives to log on and praise my work . . .

[By the way I was just kidding; thought I should clarify that in case it triggers another population explosion in Pakistan: ``Mommy, I want more relatives in my family so that they may respond to my articles on chowk, defend and praise me shamelessly ... etc.`` ]

As a counterpoint to this article, I appreciated the article on ``Huma, Miss India, and my photo`` because, although it shows our foibles in a genuine manner, there is a reason for her writing the article...it`s a gentle reminder (which resonates far more with me). Her desire to not change her picture represents something more--it`s a general shift in her world view. She`s thinking!

From the point of writing, she not only paints a dilemma, but shares her feelings when coming to a resolution. I didn`t feel like Shiraz`s did that, or at least, not as well.

Essensaur #20

Your response is a well-thought out one, specifically in reference to ``growing pains`` that we all go through...making mistakes is a part of life--like receiving some bit of disease in the form of a vaccine, in order to effect a cure. This I will not deny!

No doubt that we all need to struggle/grow up, but I just wonder whether the level at which we (young muslims collectively) are currently struggling is reaching new lows as of late. [at least, for the general chowk audience; other discourse communities may differ]. Of course we aren`t prophets (or Ishmael for that matter), but I wonder how worthy the battles are that we currently struggle over, as a generation. This is a rhetorical question...

In some respects, we`ve gotten spoilt with over indulgences. Just my opinion.

I don`t know the author`s intention, but I get some inkling that he is glorifying his ``mistakes``, rather than trying to learn or work through them. Just moving headlong into them...(with some help from the girl), not wanting to think them through as much, or until later. Or maybe the author wishes this wasn`t a problem, doesn`t even try to muster some will power, and so he embraces them head on. I don`t know...maybe he doesn`t really recognize a mistake.

To beg a larger question, I just worry that our generation tends to find its mistakes somewhat ``alluring``, which usually spells the historical downfall of many people. Part of that is broadcasting our mistakes to gain strange noteriety, rather than as a remorseful warning to others.

Of course, maybe it`s only me who sees the protagonist making a mistake. As you pointed out, I shouldn`t generalize my feelings on others. But then again, as part of a muslim community, what assumptions about ourselves (as muslims) am I allowed to keep? I know that there are people today who don`t follow the ``guidelines`` (some even flaunt them!), but at least I know what the ``guidelines`` are! That much at least is simple. We can`t rubberstamp people into one brand, but while maintaining individuality, there still needs to be some basic principles in operation that we all agree on.

Nothing is ever black and white, but every community has certain requirements in order to enjoy its collective priveleges. I can accept (as a brother) the alcoholic muslim who is at least trying to become sober--because at least he recognizes it as wrong and is trying to help himself. I won`t recognize the muslim who makes his prayers but beats his wife, if he doesn`t see something wrong with it [``is it piety to turn your face from east to west?``]. In either case, I couldn`t give up on the person.

However, I will never accept a person who calls himself a muslim but doesn`t believe in Allah (as the Quran describes Him, not the media or wherever some people get their information!). Either you are, or you aren`t, by definition of the word, ``muslim``. Somedays, my level of certainty may wax and wane, but in my heart, at least I feel/recognize/celebrate that connection.

But to do something wrong, in the face of better knowledge, and not change or repent after understanding why, is inexcusable--whether you`re a muslim or not. As a general rule of thumb, you gotta ``live the examined life``--socrates.

I hope that that is the author`s intent. Otherwise, it would just seem like hot air to me.

Ah what can I say ... we are all Hypocrites arent we???

Yasser

Funny ..

Shiraz you are pretty ok if you dont slander unnecessarily ...

-Yasser Hamdani

Solitude/Shiraz #14

I have been reading your “Chowk” articles with great interest. My comments on “Nuns and Tawaifs” were certainly influenced by an appreciation of your earlier pieces, and the profile of a promising author that was taking shape in my mind.

This author was similar to, but also different from the many others that write on the Chowk. He was obviously sensitive to the pains of growing up in a social system whose heritage most of the Chowk readers seem to share. But he was writing about a social system that has been trying to redefine itself as a narrower and more intensely homogenous subset of its original already orthodox, feudal but pluralistic past. Such a process must inevitably imply extra pressures on its young citizens. Could the products of a society that was trying to homogenize itself also display some standardized characteristics in a significantly pronounced fashion? Was the author trying to explore such themes consciously?

The incidents the author has chosen to narrate provide deep insights into those pressures. Could it be that the author has a professional or academic background that helps him pick such “rich” incidents to write about? Or is he a young, energetic person whose sensitivity and honesty instinctively lead him to talk about psychologically significant events? Is he a smart writer, both mature and creative? Or do his articles represent a personal quest for unknown answers? Well, your response seems to clear up some of those mysteries.

I know there is always a danger in trying to read between the lines. One may invent rather than discover. But at the risk of reading too much, I am concerned about your reference to “some Arab”. Do you mean what I think you mean? And please, do not answer that one!

But I liked your tongue-in-cheek reference to belly dancers. Only a creative mind would make such an impassioned, yet funny plea for openness in society. That may well be the best way to channel your anger.

Princes #19:

You would probably not feel that way if you looked at this story as a part of the pattern Shiraz is presenting through his articles.

But that apart, why not look at it as a growing pains episode, and leave it at that? Nobody attains mature adulthood without going though puberty, adolescence, youthful “mistakes”, and without suffering the pains of an identity crisis. It is rarely pretty to observe. The greater these pains, the better is your personality if and when you successfully resolve your crisis. The mature guy whom women would love to marry today, could well have been someone they would have despised yesterday, when he was passing through his adolescence. So no need to heap scorn on the male character in the story, just because he tells his readers what he does not say to his girl.

Do not grudge the poor man his wishful thinking. Even the President Carter once confessed to having “lusted” for other women, even as he was holding that most exalted office. And have you not enjoyed watching the “obsessed” behavior of Garry Grimes and his young friends in The Summer of ‘42?

And just to debate your point about the story, this kid was definitely egged on by the girl. In that sense she was hardly “random” as you call her. For him, there was no one before her, if you believe the narrative. Actually, the wooing on the part of the girl is rather well written. Too bad you overlooked it.

Sex out of wedlock is proscribed by the young man’s value system. He obviously is going through a to-do-or-not-to-do crisis. For the girl, he may well have been attractive enough to help out. Or may be, just different enough to be interesting. But there is no need to sit in judgement on the female lead either. After the sixties, the ethos on the campus had completely jettisoned the values the young man seems to be struggling with. Guilt has been done away with. Limits of freedom are still being explored, probed and pushed.

You know, judging others by one’s own standards is popular, but hardly fair.

it`s sad in a pathetic sort of way...it may not be autobiographical, but it doesn`t strike any chord of resonance with me...and i feel bad for the readers in whom it does. Who`d want to marry that kind of guy, anyway?

all this kid (in the story) lives for is to be touched by a random girl, and when he actually does, he`ll be disappointed (maybe not immediately, but soon). And if he isn`t, then I question what he`s living for anyway.

Surprise!! there`s more to life than sexual tension.

One doesn`t have to be a eunnuch, but men aren`t wilderbeasts either. don`t believe the hype.