Murad A Baig August 5, 2000
#33 Posted by Truth on August 7, 2000 4:29:59 pm
Murad:
Since you seem to know something about the origin of the Gills and the history of Kashyap, here is another question for you? Do you know anything about the ethnic history of Punjabi Khatris. Specifically, what is the history of the Khannas, Seths, Malhotras and Mehtas. These four families consider themselves to be among the upper echelons of Punjabi Khatri hierarchy. Without wanting to feed their vanity too much, I am curious as to who they are and why they have such vanity. Any clues?
Since you seem to know something about the origin of the Gills and the history of Kashyap, here is another question for you? Do you know anything about the ethnic history of Punjabi Khatris. Specifically, what is the history of the Khannas, Seths, Malhotras and Mehtas. These four families consider themselves to be among the upper echelons of Punjabi Khatri hierarchy. Without wanting to feed their vanity too much, I am curious as to who they are and why they have such vanity. Any clues?
#32 Posted by jyoti on August 7, 2000 4:29:59 pm
Sorry I have posted it again so that it can be read by others.
Re to Asim#51,52 and scout
This thread will go off soon, so I will not attempt a detailed answer of ur questions. TNT had its way in 1947. India has already suffered a partition. There will be no more partitions in the name of religion. Abraham Lincoln had to face a civil war to prevent his nation from being disintegrated. So will India.
In reply to scout`s question, `` Pakistani terrorists`` should have been Pakistan backed terrorists. And most of the Pakistanis support terrorist activities barring a few enlightened ones. If you want to see the hatred in the heart of an average Paki read Hamidm`s postings. Regarding ``freeing`` Kashmir, a nation can not be allowed to disintegrate because some fanatics brainwash gullible people in the name of religion. Kashmir will be granted more autonomy, greater help from the people of India in developmental activities to make it a prosperous state.
And in reply to Asim`s questions, what can a govt do to win the confidence of people. Providing economic help: that Indian govt was doing till now, by meeting majority of its expenses.Social acceptance: There is no discrimination of any sort thatis especially applied against Kashmiris in any part of India. Freedom to practise their religion: Indian constitution provides that to all people of India. If you are talking of any special priviliges, then Article 371 guarantees them an autonomous status and no laws without the approval of Kashmiri parliament can be imposed on them except in the matters of defense, Communication, and foreign policy. They are free for everything else.
Kashmiris are as much Indians as any other people. And we can sort the affair out between ourselves. Why does Pakistan come on between.
Sincerely
Re to Asim#51,52 and scout
This thread will go off soon, so I will not attempt a detailed answer of ur questions. TNT had its way in 1947. India has already suffered a partition. There will be no more partitions in the name of religion. Abraham Lincoln had to face a civil war to prevent his nation from being disintegrated. So will India.
In reply to scout`s question, `` Pakistani terrorists`` should have been Pakistan backed terrorists. And most of the Pakistanis support terrorist activities barring a few enlightened ones. If you want to see the hatred in the heart of an average Paki read Hamidm`s postings. Regarding ``freeing`` Kashmir, a nation can not be allowed to disintegrate because some fanatics brainwash gullible people in the name of religion. Kashmir will be granted more autonomy, greater help from the people of India in developmental activities to make it a prosperous state.
And in reply to Asim`s questions, what can a govt do to win the confidence of people. Providing economic help: that Indian govt was doing till now, by meeting majority of its expenses.Social acceptance: There is no discrimination of any sort thatis especially applied against Kashmiris in any part of India. Freedom to practise their religion: Indian constitution provides that to all people of India. If you are talking of any special priviliges, then Article 371 guarantees them an autonomous status and no laws without the approval of Kashmiri parliament can be imposed on them except in the matters of defense, Communication, and foreign policy. They are free for everything else.
Kashmiris are as much Indians as any other people. And we can sort the affair out between ourselves. Why does Pakistan come on between.
Sincerely
#31 Posted by khokan on August 7, 2000 12:02:45 pm
The Horizon
30th October, 1998
Self-determination Isn`t Always Sacred
by Pravin Satsangi
Self-determination is fast becoming the most abused concept of our times. When Woodrow Wilson coined the word, it was to verbalize his compassion and concern for fellow human beings. But the political arm of terrorists,like those in Kashmir, use the word in a way that is a travesty of the lofty principles that had animated President Wilson and is a cruel mockery of human rights. No one can possibly be left in doubt about this once he witnesses the plight of the
quarter million Kashmiri Hindus who have had to flee their ancestral home in the face of fanatical terrorists from abroad seeking
self-determination for the Muslims in Kashmir.
The political representatives of the terrorists in Kashmir weave the word ``self-determination`` into their righteous chants in a clever public relations effort to glean support for their goal of turning Jammu and Kashmir in the mold of ethnically cleansed Pakistan. The world needs to be informed that self-determination of ``their`` people is ruthlessly violating the human rights of others.
Self-determination is indeed a basic human right. But it loses its sanctity when self-determination of a group implies marching orders for the rest. Ofcourse, people don`t leave their homes voluntarily. They have to be persuaded. That means killing them untill everybody gets the idea.
The massive ethnic cleansing of 1947 in Jinnah`s Pakistan is an example of self-determaination of this evil variety. Pakistan lived upto its name by becoming a ``cleansed land`` within weeks of independence. And now Kashmir is taking a leaf out of Jinnah`s book. Self-righteous chanters of ``self-determination`` with direct Pakistani assistance seem well on their way to stamping out religious diversity from Jammu and Kashmir.
Will we never learn the cruel lessons of history? The previous UN Secretary General Boutros-Ghali put it about as bluntly as could be: ``If every ethnic, religious or linguistic group claimed statehood, there would be no limit to fragmentation. Peace, security and economic well-being for all would become even more
difficult to achieve.``
Self-determination for a group must never sanctify the violation of human rights of another. Automatic self-determination, for whosoever shouts the loudest, is a sure recipe for tragedies like Kashmir. It is the greatest of evils to allow one person`s self-determination to degenerate into his neighbour`s extinction. Kashmir desperately calls out for respite from fanatical terrorists from abroad who have turned the land into a living hell.
Abraham Lincoln courageously faced down those that chanted ``secession`` to perpetuate the evil of slavery. We, too, must summon the courage to confront those that chant ``self-determination`` in heedless pursuit of Jinnah`s evil ideology of religious apartheid.
30th October, 1998
Self-determination Isn`t Always Sacred
by Pravin Satsangi
Self-determination is fast becoming the most abused concept of our times. When Woodrow Wilson coined the word, it was to verbalize his compassion and concern for fellow human beings. But the political arm of terrorists,like those in Kashmir, use the word in a way that is a travesty of the lofty principles that had animated President Wilson and is a cruel mockery of human rights. No one can possibly be left in doubt about this once he witnesses the plight of the
quarter million Kashmiri Hindus who have had to flee their ancestral home in the face of fanatical terrorists from abroad seeking
self-determination for the Muslims in Kashmir.
The political representatives of the terrorists in Kashmir weave the word ``self-determination`` into their righteous chants in a clever public relations effort to glean support for their goal of turning Jammu and Kashmir in the mold of ethnically cleansed Pakistan. The world needs to be informed that self-determination of ``their`` people is ruthlessly violating the human rights of others.
Self-determination is indeed a basic human right. But it loses its sanctity when self-determination of a group implies marching orders for the rest. Ofcourse, people don`t leave their homes voluntarily. They have to be persuaded. That means killing them untill everybody gets the idea.
The massive ethnic cleansing of 1947 in Jinnah`s Pakistan is an example of self-determaination of this evil variety. Pakistan lived upto its name by becoming a ``cleansed land`` within weeks of independence. And now Kashmir is taking a leaf out of Jinnah`s book. Self-righteous chanters of ``self-determination`` with direct Pakistani assistance seem well on their way to stamping out religious diversity from Jammu and Kashmir.
Will we never learn the cruel lessons of history? The previous UN Secretary General Boutros-Ghali put it about as bluntly as could be: ``If every ethnic, religious or linguistic group claimed statehood, there would be no limit to fragmentation. Peace, security and economic well-being for all would become even more
difficult to achieve.``
Self-determination for a group must never sanctify the violation of human rights of another. Automatic self-determination, for whosoever shouts the loudest, is a sure recipe for tragedies like Kashmir. It is the greatest of evils to allow one person`s self-determination to degenerate into his neighbour`s extinction. Kashmir desperately calls out for respite from fanatical terrorists from abroad who have turned the land into a living hell.
Abraham Lincoln courageously faced down those that chanted ``secession`` to perpetuate the evil of slavery. We, too, must summon the courage to confront those that chant ``self-determination`` in heedless pursuit of Jinnah`s evil ideology of religious apartheid.
#30 Posted by pullu on August 7, 2000 10:23:57 am
Kashmir is paradise on earth(awful cliche).It is the jewel of India(take another one).It is synonymous with hinduism(digest this cliche).
It may not be surprising if one of the main reasons for congress led by Nehru to hold kashmir,
could be the ones` mentioned above. Nehru`s ancestral roots incidentally can be traced to kashmir. There are myriads of other reasons.
But changing of religion by a large section, does not warrant interference from other nations nor does it justify demands to secede from a nation. I don`t see any connection.
Freedom does not come cheap. And if the vale
of kashmir is soaked in blood, it is because kashmiris have asked for it. Army is deployed only where there is trouble.
It would be lovely to have peace in Kashmir but
that would be under the shadow of Indian tricolor. If kashmiris do not agree to this and bleed us (as pakistanis call it) then it will only be reciprocated in kind.
Who is to be blamed? The Indian heart points at him, and the human heart stands confused.
I too did not know saffron flags were so dangerous. Secularism at it`s best. What to say about kashmiriyat! Since somebody else is fighting
(and talking) for kashmir, kashmiriyat can go and
fend for itself.
``Kashmir and Accent`` both have got
foreign hand. :)
sadhana #reply all
Jee, maine aapka haasya-vyangya wala reply padha tha. Is it worth a buy? wish you had typed that poem here.(high hopes!).
So u belong to the helping category.rare. Generally i have found females to be quite a bit disturbed and insecure while travelling. That is why I have always offered help,(not that i wouldn`t otherwise) which i loved :). BTW what is the name of that train by which you travelled north/south?
(cheers)
until next time,
pullu
It may not be surprising if one of the main reasons for congress led by Nehru to hold kashmir,
could be the ones` mentioned above. Nehru`s ancestral roots incidentally can be traced to kashmir. There are myriads of other reasons.
But changing of religion by a large section, does not warrant interference from other nations nor does it justify demands to secede from a nation. I don`t see any connection.
Freedom does not come cheap. And if the vale
of kashmir is soaked in blood, it is because kashmiris have asked for it. Army is deployed only where there is trouble.
It would be lovely to have peace in Kashmir but
that would be under the shadow of Indian tricolor. If kashmiris do not agree to this and bleed us (as pakistanis call it) then it will only be reciprocated in kind.
Who is to be blamed? The Indian heart points at him, and the human heart stands confused.
I too did not know saffron flags were so dangerous. Secularism at it`s best. What to say about kashmiriyat! Since somebody else is fighting
(and talking) for kashmir, kashmiriyat can go and
fend for itself.
``Kashmir and Accent`` both have got
foreign hand. :)
sadhana #reply all
Jee, maine aapka haasya-vyangya wala reply padha tha. Is it worth a buy? wish you had typed that poem here.(high hopes!).
So u belong to the helping category.rare. Generally i have found females to be quite a bit disturbed and insecure while travelling. That is why I have always offered help,(not that i wouldn`t otherwise) which i loved :). BTW what is the name of that train by which you travelled north/south?
(cheers)
until next time,
pullu
#29 Posted by krashid on August 7, 2000 12:12:04 am
Salmangorsi #27
You don`t have to take the pains of Kashmiris. Nor for anyother.
Your senior generations has taken enough pain for you so that you can write on this board with a full stomach.
If your previous generation had not struggled in bloodbath, you will be lamenting at apathy of whole world for your rights being trampled.
Have a good future and closed eyes.
You don`t have to take the pains of Kashmiris. Nor for anyother.
Your senior generations has taken enough pain for you so that you can write on this board with a full stomach.
If your previous generation had not struggled in bloodbath, you will be lamenting at apathy of whole world for your rights being trampled.
Have a good future and closed eyes.
#28 Posted by rsaxena on August 6, 2000 9:22:07 pm
All this beautiful land...lakes...snow capped mountains....bushy trees....furry animals for pashminas talk about Kashmir is sickening. It has no oil or skyscrapers or yuppie hangouts or ferragamo shops or pubs selling 100 varieties of beer.
#27 Posted by Asim on August 6, 2000 9:22:07 pm
Re: Jay and introspection.
My message still stands. Introspection is the only way to move forward. But it has to be done not by just one party, but both parties ionvolved with the bloodshed. I hope i could not be more unequiovcal than that. Herein lies the problem. The perceived value of introspection, and the ability to maintain a clear focus on truth as opposed to issues of futile pride.
Having said that, i have yet to see admittance from your side, Jay, that wrongs are being committed selectively on those unfortunate critters. No where did i see an accptance of the fact that in the IOK, the Indian govt has done little iof at all anything, to win the confidence of the Muslims of that area over whom they have been ruling for the last 53 odd years. Why have they not shown them meticulous fair, and equitable treatment that would have moved them to vote for them in defiance of all Pakistani efforts. In this age of competition and fast paced life, people in the third world countries like ours, mostly poor, simple and honest people. These people(dare i add the majority) do not give a damn about politics, or who owns Kashmir. They merely want to get on with the mundane business of living, a simple, honest life, without the ominous threats of loss of life or loved ones hanging on their heads, day and night. What has the various indian regimes done for them? What have they promised them? As far as the independent observer can see, NOTHING, ZILCH, NADA, NO SECURITY, NO REFUGE, NO EQUALITY, NO SHELTER, just pain, grieve, and suffering. Why are the various Human rights orgnaisations pursuing such Anti Indian agendas about the dearth of human rights being exercised in the IOK. Surely you have to agree that not all of them could be sponsored by ISI. I am not saying that HR rights are not trampled upon by Pakistan; for they are indeed. But for this issue over this land which you hold so sacred to your hearts,.. why are si many reports being seen by the international media of the suffering of people in IOK. That i believe needss severe and groos introspection.
20 Century has seen that bully`s need to be curbed by whatever means possible. You saw what happened in Iraq, in Bosnia etc. Though its very strategic as to why US does not want to get involved in this bloodshed. There is not much for them in this game, as opposed to oil in the midle east, and cutting doen the oppoistion to size (Milosovic) in Bosnia. US is not a superpower just for the words, it uses extreme intellect to run the world. Human sympathy comes right at the bottom of its ladder, unless the appreciation of symptahy is linked to its gains somehow. But I digress.
You want to keep IOK. At least have it in your heart to not blackmail the suffering ``MINORITY`` junta of that comatose land into submission using any which means you deem necessary because once again THE ALL TOO FAMILIAR ``indian`` pride is at stake.
The day you start introspection and deal with thise unfortunate people in an equitable manner, Pakistan too shall back off. Contrary to what you might think, we are not all insance, or retrded to carry on putting resources into a fight, at the expnese of the progress of this country. Let us give soem thought to the peace processs. Numewrous times Pakistan has extended the hand for bilateral talsk, numerpus times these talks have been rejected. Why? Does that show a recptive regime on your part. I think Not!
DIALOGUE NEEDS TO BE OPEN.
Asim
P.S I am against all bloodshed; bloodhsed happening in IOK by your forces is not any less reprehensible than that bbeing done by mine. Like i have said, both parties should shoulder the blame. No one can skirt the issue by putting blame sorely on the other. But there is a cause and effect chain of command here. Depends which way you look at the cause and effect. Right?
My message still stands. Introspection is the only way to move forward. But it has to be done not by just one party, but both parties ionvolved with the bloodshed. I hope i could not be more unequiovcal than that. Herein lies the problem. The perceived value of introspection, and the ability to maintain a clear focus on truth as opposed to issues of futile pride.
Having said that, i have yet to see admittance from your side, Jay, that wrongs are being committed selectively on those unfortunate critters. No where did i see an accptance of the fact that in the IOK, the Indian govt has done little iof at all anything, to win the confidence of the Muslims of that area over whom they have been ruling for the last 53 odd years. Why have they not shown them meticulous fair, and equitable treatment that would have moved them to vote for them in defiance of all Pakistani efforts. In this age of competition and fast paced life, people in the third world countries like ours, mostly poor, simple and honest people. These people(dare i add the majority) do not give a damn about politics, or who owns Kashmir. They merely want to get on with the mundane business of living, a simple, honest life, without the ominous threats of loss of life or loved ones hanging on their heads, day and night. What has the various indian regimes done for them? What have they promised them? As far as the independent observer can see, NOTHING, ZILCH, NADA, NO SECURITY, NO REFUGE, NO EQUALITY, NO SHELTER, just pain, grieve, and suffering. Why are the various Human rights orgnaisations pursuing such Anti Indian agendas about the dearth of human rights being exercised in the IOK. Surely you have to agree that not all of them could be sponsored by ISI. I am not saying that HR rights are not trampled upon by Pakistan; for they are indeed. But for this issue over this land which you hold so sacred to your hearts,.. why are si many reports being seen by the international media of the suffering of people in IOK. That i believe needss severe and groos introspection.
20 Century has seen that bully`s need to be curbed by whatever means possible. You saw what happened in Iraq, in Bosnia etc. Though its very strategic as to why US does not want to get involved in this bloodshed. There is not much for them in this game, as opposed to oil in the midle east, and cutting doen the oppoistion to size (Milosovic) in Bosnia. US is not a superpower just for the words, it uses extreme intellect to run the world. Human sympathy comes right at the bottom of its ladder, unless the appreciation of symptahy is linked to its gains somehow. But I digress.
You want to keep IOK. At least have it in your heart to not blackmail the suffering ``MINORITY`` junta of that comatose land into submission using any which means you deem necessary because once again THE ALL TOO FAMILIAR ``indian`` pride is at stake.
The day you start introspection and deal with thise unfortunate people in an equitable manner, Pakistan too shall back off. Contrary to what you might think, we are not all insance, or retrded to carry on putting resources into a fight, at the expnese of the progress of this country. Let us give soem thought to the peace processs. Numewrous times Pakistan has extended the hand for bilateral talsk, numerpus times these talks have been rejected. Why? Does that show a recptive regime on your part. I think Not!
DIALOGUE NEEDS TO BE OPEN.
Asim
P.S I am against all bloodshed; bloodhsed happening in IOK by your forces is not any less reprehensible than that bbeing done by mine. Like i have said, both parties should shoulder the blame. No one can skirt the issue by putting blame sorely on the other. But there is a cause and effect chain of command here. Depends which way you look at the cause and effect. Right?
#26 Posted by Zahra on August 6, 2000 2:20:04 pm
Certainly an eye catching article! The 1st paragraph, had a very nice opening. As a reader, I *had * to continue with the flow. A beautiful sequence of events! The historical information was also re-educating.
I think the *Accent`s * -(interior and exterior) details could have been brought up at the end. Personally, I was totally engrossed in the beauty of Gulmarg and the after effects of Dal Lake, when I got hit by the Tazkaa`ra` of Accent :-( This is the 2nd time, I am reading/hearing about a drive to Kashmir, where the narrator found it important to mention the vehicle. My dear father would always mention his, before partition, childhood family summer vacation trips to Kashmir. The route from Sialkot, the winding roads, the natural beauty, the ‘shor-machatae hoaae’ bachae’[In this case, my father and his sister], late grandfather – giving them the overview of the surroundings, their old driver making sure that the Chevy-Impala`s drive is not distracted by the surrounding hustle bustle. There must be something special about this drive!
I no longer follow the ups and downs in Kashmir`s political scenes, but I found the ending paragraph carrying an underlying point. In the current situation, I`ll question: Can *one * person be the *catalyst * in resolving all the existing knots ? I wished the writer had seen some other *
I think the *Accent`s * -(interior and exterior) details could have been brought up at the end. Personally, I was totally engrossed in the beauty of Gulmarg and the after effects of Dal Lake, when I got hit by the Tazkaa`ra` of Accent :-( This is the 2nd time, I am reading/hearing about a drive to Kashmir, where the narrator found it important to mention the vehicle. My dear father would always mention his, before partition, childhood family summer vacation trips to Kashmir. The route from Sialkot, the winding roads, the natural beauty, the ‘shor-machatae hoaae’ bachae’[In this case, my father and his sister], late grandfather – giving them the overview of the surroundings, their old driver making sure that the Chevy-Impala`s drive is not distracted by the surrounding hustle bustle. There must be something special about this drive!
I no longer follow the ups and downs in Kashmir`s political scenes, but I found the ending paragraph carrying an underlying point. In the current situation, I`ll question: Can *one * person be the *catalyst * in resolving all the existing knots ? I wished the writer had seen some other *
#25 Posted by Rdesikan on August 6, 2000 10:50:15 am
RE Veeresh #21
Not disputing the mortality data there. More tourists die in an average month in Miami for that matter, for all I care. The point I was making was that Kashmir was open to the rest of the world save our beloved neighbour and that fewer people were seeing the wondrous sights because of the situation there.
On a different matter, the reason for the ceasefire more than the attributed masterstroke to Islamabad is the overall fatigue with the insurgency among the natives as well as the security folks. The same reason there was peace in Punjab. The bottom line is that people from our neck of the woods just want to go on with their lives. The bottom line is that when we go about our daily lives we are so preoccupied with the odds and ends that we really don`t think of nationality or patriotism. I believe that India is going to have to move from its stated position over the years and the same for Pakistan as well. Otherwise, it`s status quo. This bloody thing has taken a toll on the exchequers of both countries, and it`s time to move on. The damn place deserves a ten year moratarium to heal itself.
As the late great John Lennon said, all we are saying, is give peace a chance.
Not disputing the mortality data there. More tourists die in an average month in Miami for that matter, for all I care. The point I was making was that Kashmir was open to the rest of the world save our beloved neighbour and that fewer people were seeing the wondrous sights because of the situation there.
On a different matter, the reason for the ceasefire more than the attributed masterstroke to Islamabad is the overall fatigue with the insurgency among the natives as well as the security folks. The same reason there was peace in Punjab. The bottom line is that people from our neck of the woods just want to go on with their lives. The bottom line is that when we go about our daily lives we are so preoccupied with the odds and ends that we really don`t think of nationality or patriotism. I believe that India is going to have to move from its stated position over the years and the same for Pakistan as well. Otherwise, it`s status quo. This bloody thing has taken a toll on the exchequers of both countries, and it`s time to move on. The damn place deserves a ten year moratarium to heal itself.
As the late great John Lennon said, all we are saying, is give peace a chance.
#24 Posted by friend on August 6, 2000 10:50:15 am
Veeresh/Murad #22
``What is wrong in interspersing a car review with a travel/tourist/socio article? . . .``
Nothing is wrong with that. But that is more suitable for a travel oriendted magzine. Title and beginning of this article gave no clue that we will be finally treated with comparison between cars. May be writer should have given a two liner at the top explaining that it is a car review.
``Conversion of Buddhist temples from as far away as Central Asia, Afghanistan, even Iraq, is well documented. Difference being that some became Hindu, some became Muslim and some vanished...``
I agree with you when you are talking about decline of budhism in Central asia. I am curious only about the ``fact`` stated by author when he claims that Shankracharya converted budhist temples in Kashmir and Badrinath. If you know the source of this information, please enlighten me.
BTW, I do know where the largest stone statue of Buddha is. Hope that it is not blown away as threatened by ...
Regards
``What is wrong in interspersing a car review with a travel/tourist/socio article? . . .``
Nothing is wrong with that. But that is more suitable for a travel oriendted magzine. Title and beginning of this article gave no clue that we will be finally treated with comparison between cars. May be writer should have given a two liner at the top explaining that it is a car review.
``Conversion of Buddhist temples from as far away as Central Asia, Afghanistan, even Iraq, is well documented. Difference being that some became Hindu, some became Muslim and some vanished...``
I agree with you when you are talking about decline of budhism in Central asia. I am curious only about the ``fact`` stated by author when he claims that Shankracharya converted budhist temples in Kashmir and Badrinath. If you know the source of this information, please enlighten me.
BTW, I do know where the largest stone statue of Buddha is. Hope that it is not blown away as threatened by ...
Regards
#23 Posted by jay on August 6, 2000 10:50:15 am
Pakistanis are troubled, the beautiful valley of Kasmir is being destroyed, how sad. In the language of jihad, in the language of TNT, there is no scope for culture, nature, it is religion and religion only. In the last year, muslims from more than seven countries have come to kashmir with the only intention of killing. The great and widely respected moulana of pakistan, in the classic jihad style had one person executed in the aircraft to ensure his continued jihadic activity in pakistan. Yes, of course the hijackers vanished at the border of the land of the pure.
Asim Hayat,
You seem to like introspection. Great, introspect on the role of pakistanis in the so called peace taking place now. This is from nation of today,
Kashmir: Must Pakistan play third fiddle!
KARACHI-The tripartite talk issue raises many a delicate question for Pakistan. Whereas India rules out Pakistan`s participation in the uncertain talks - almost with a contemptuous wave of hand - the All Parties Hurriyet Conference (APHC) insists on that. As for the Hizbul Mujahideen, the principal actor in the ceasefire initiative, it has, subject to certain pre-conditions, agreed to kick start the talks in New Delhi without Pakistan.
This places Pakistan in quite an awkward position. Should it at all join the Hizb-New Delhi talks almost as a nominee of the APHC and play almost the third fiddle? or should it leave it to the Hizb, as the largest militant wing of the Kashmiris to tackle the Indians in their own way? Wouldn`t that be getting close to giving the Kashmiris their first chance to exercise their right of self-determination unaided? Nevertheless, one would wish the venue for the exercise of that right, even initially should have been the UN or Srinagar or Islamabad where the Hizb`s Chief Syed Salahuddin has his headquarters, rather than New Delhi. Who would in his right mind hesitate to give full support to the `window of opportunity` the Hizb`s (Kashmiri) initiative has opened for peace in the war-torn state of Jammu and Kashmir? Still the question would remain, what kind of peace and with whom? Regardless of the impeccable credentials of the Hizb as the main force in the Kashmiri armed struggle through the past decade, there are other smaller groups too with their share of sacrifices. The Lashkar-i-Tayyaba about the second largest among the combat groups, refuses to go along with the Hizb.
Not only that, it would even reportedly claim the responsibility for the first wave of massacres around the Valley of Hindu pilgrims on their way to the holy shrine of Amarnath. Worse still the Muttahida Jihad Council (MJC) would not wait to expel the Hizb from its ranks and denounce Syed Salahuddin as a traitor.
Qazi Hussain Ahmad, Amir Jamaat-i-Islami looked at the ceasefire move as the great betrayal of the cause of Kashmir liberation. The Jama`at together with Lashkar-i-Tayyaba and other relatively smaller activist groups seems convinced that armed struggle alone could wake India see sense and come to the negotiating table without pre-conditions.
As Pakistan faces not too easy a situation because of emerging divisions in the Mujahideen ranks and its own tenuous hold on those, India is exploiting the circumstances to its best advantage. The Anantnag massacres, even if a replay of the Chitisinghpura multiple murders of the Sikhs by the Indian forces well timed with the March visit of President Clinton, India has, once again, passed the buck on to Pakistan.
And the Pakistan-based Mujahideen group, by reportedly accepting the responsibility for the grisly act, seriously compromised Pakistan`s position. As a result, President Clinton personally called the Indian Prime Minister to convey his sympathies for the loss of innocent civilian lives and support for his (Vajpayee`s) peace initiative.
A day later US Ambassador Celeste in New Delhi, without condemning Pakistan in so many words expressed his and country`s deep appreciation for India`s peace efforts and restraint in the face of grave provocation.
India would seem to be using the same tactics to embarrass Pakistan diplomatically as it did through the Kargil episode. By firmly refusing to cross the LoC even under military pressure New Delhi won international acclaim for strategic restraint.
New it is trying hard not only to snatch the peace initiative from Pakistan and win the Kashmiris - of the Hizb`s at least - over to its side to leave Pakistan in the cold.
Home Minister L.K. Advani calls the Kashmiris his own people (Indians, that is) and talks it over with them without Pakistan. Prime Minister Vajpayee would be willing to hold talks with the Hizb and all other Mujahideen groups in the name of insaniyat (humanity).
`Leave the constitution`, he said, ` talks should be held within the limits of insaniyat so that violence is stopped and no more blood is shed.`
Asim Hayat,
You seem to like introspection. Great, introspect on the role of pakistanis in the so called peace taking place now. This is from nation of today,
Kashmir: Must Pakistan play third fiddle!
KARACHI-The tripartite talk issue raises many a delicate question for Pakistan. Whereas India rules out Pakistan`s participation in the uncertain talks - almost with a contemptuous wave of hand - the All Parties Hurriyet Conference (APHC) insists on that. As for the Hizbul Mujahideen, the principal actor in the ceasefire initiative, it has, subject to certain pre-conditions, agreed to kick start the talks in New Delhi without Pakistan.
This places Pakistan in quite an awkward position. Should it at all join the Hizb-New Delhi talks almost as a nominee of the APHC and play almost the third fiddle? or should it leave it to the Hizb, as the largest militant wing of the Kashmiris to tackle the Indians in their own way? Wouldn`t that be getting close to giving the Kashmiris their first chance to exercise their right of self-determination unaided? Nevertheless, one would wish the venue for the exercise of that right, even initially should have been the UN or Srinagar or Islamabad where the Hizb`s Chief Syed Salahuddin has his headquarters, rather than New Delhi. Who would in his right mind hesitate to give full support to the `window of opportunity` the Hizb`s (Kashmiri) initiative has opened for peace in the war-torn state of Jammu and Kashmir? Still the question would remain, what kind of peace and with whom? Regardless of the impeccable credentials of the Hizb as the main force in the Kashmiri armed struggle through the past decade, there are other smaller groups too with their share of sacrifices. The Lashkar-i-Tayyaba about the second largest among the combat groups, refuses to go along with the Hizb.
Not only that, it would even reportedly claim the responsibility for the first wave of massacres around the Valley of Hindu pilgrims on their way to the holy shrine of Amarnath. Worse still the Muttahida Jihad Council (MJC) would not wait to expel the Hizb from its ranks and denounce Syed Salahuddin as a traitor.
Qazi Hussain Ahmad, Amir Jamaat-i-Islami looked at the ceasefire move as the great betrayal of the cause of Kashmir liberation. The Jama`at together with Lashkar-i-Tayyaba and other relatively smaller activist groups seems convinced that armed struggle alone could wake India see sense and come to the negotiating table without pre-conditions.
As Pakistan faces not too easy a situation because of emerging divisions in the Mujahideen ranks and its own tenuous hold on those, India is exploiting the circumstances to its best advantage. The Anantnag massacres, even if a replay of the Chitisinghpura multiple murders of the Sikhs by the Indian forces well timed with the March visit of President Clinton, India has, once again, passed the buck on to Pakistan.
And the Pakistan-based Mujahideen group, by reportedly accepting the responsibility for the grisly act, seriously compromised Pakistan`s position. As a result, President Clinton personally called the Indian Prime Minister to convey his sympathies for the loss of innocent civilian lives and support for his (Vajpayee`s) peace initiative.
A day later US Ambassador Celeste in New Delhi, without condemning Pakistan in so many words expressed his and country`s deep appreciation for India`s peace efforts and restraint in the face of grave provocation.
India would seem to be using the same tactics to embarrass Pakistan diplomatically as it did through the Kargil episode. By firmly refusing to cross the LoC even under military pressure New Delhi won international acclaim for strategic restraint.
New it is trying hard not only to snatch the peace initiative from Pakistan and win the Kashmiris - of the Hizb`s at least - over to its side to leave Pakistan in the cold.
Home Minister L.K. Advani calls the Kashmiris his own people (Indians, that is) and talks it over with them without Pakistan. Prime Minister Vajpayee would be willing to hold talks with the Hizb and all other Mujahideen groups in the name of insaniyat (humanity).
`Leave the constitution`, he said, ` talks should be held within the limits of insaniyat so that violence is stopped and no more blood is shed.`
#22 Posted by Ras Siddiqui on August 6, 2000 1:56:58 am
From another Kashmiri
Khalid Hasan in The News International Today
(Sunday)
An elegy for Kashmir
Khalid Hasan
One largely unacknowledged victim of the conflict in Kashmir is this fabled valley`s environment. It has suffered the same devastation as have its unfortunate inhabitants whose only sin has been their desire to be asked how they want to live. For this single act of defiance, they have been punished. No one has come to their rescue though there are several who speak in their name.
Kashmir`s beauty has been the first to have been raped: its women, a close second. The world has neither cared for the first nor the second. And while those who wish the Kashmiris well have been generous with words, they have done little to stop the rampage, if not contributed to it. Much of Kashmir has died; the rest is dying. Kashmiris don`t need our tears because they have enough of their own.
What they need we seem unable to provide them. God made Kashmir the earth`s most beautiful spot: He also made it its most tragic. Iqbal wanted to shake away the hand that oppressed the Kashmiri. He died hoping for the day of Kashmir`s deliverance. So did Muhammad Ali Jinnah. And Chaudhri Ghulam Abbas. And KH Khurshid. Farooq Abdullah is the lot of Kashmir on that side and the Barrister, who has never practised what he claims to have a degree in, ours.
If there was a jewel in the crown that was the Kashmir Valley, it was the Dal Lake in Srinagar. And the Dal Lake is dying. Four years ago, Christopher Duvall from a research study centre in Hong Kong wrote, ``The civil war in Kashmir has had a devastating effect on the Dal lake ecosystem. Central to the Dal Lake problem is the semi-legal slashing of mountainside forests by the military factions and their opponents. The deforestation has created problems of soil erosion and mud slides that catch local population by deadly surprise and slowly change the shape and chemistry of the Lake. There seems to be an inability to significantly alter the course of the destruction. Both sides of the civil war have become entangled in bureaucratic red tape or by military objectives that supercede civilian programmes.``
``Dal Lake,`` he wrote, ``was being overrun by weeds, choked with silt and saturated with pollution``. That was four years ago. The situation is much worse today as there has been no let up in the conflict. Outside Srinagar, in the Dachigam national park which used to abound in a rare species of red deer, few are to be found today, having fallen victim to the warring sides.
According to the study, ``The red deer used to flourish in the area, but troops from both sides of the conflict detail the need for provisions and food that their benefactors have been unable to supply. Consequently, the deer, birds and fish in the area are now being used to nourish the troops.`` ``When thousands of people have been killed, no one is going to talk about wildlife,`` said Noorul Hassan, who served as chief of the Kashmir Valley forest service for more than three decades before his retirement. If a few hundred deer have been killed, so what?
As for the Lake, by 1996, six years after the outbreak of the armed conflict in Kashmir, it had shrunk to half its original size. Almost two-thirds of the remaining 4.6 square mile area has been smothered by vegetation. And it is shrinking. Its waters are weed-ridden and polluted by untreated waste. People continue to reclaim land from the lake area. As the conflict continues, so does the amount of waste and garbage being dumped into its waters.
With the appearance of red algae that thrive in polluted and stagnated water over vast portions of the lake, the entire food chain has been severed for the villagers who depended on the Dal for their food and their living. When the red patches first appeared in 1992, the people of Kashmir believed them to be the blood of those thousands of Kashmiris who had fallen in the struggle for azadi. ``All too often now, red slime covers the surface, the lake people struggle to navigate weed-choked canals and fewer birds return to their nesting sites in the trees on the bank,`` observed Duvall.
And yet it was not like this always. Sir Walter Lawrence, who recorded his impressions of Kashmir in his classic gazetteer on the state`s history, geography and people, said of the Dal Lake, ``The mountain ridges which are reflected in its waters as in a mirror, are grand and varied, the trees and vegetation on the shores of the Dal being of exquisite beauty. In the spring, the fresh green tints of the trees and the mountain sides are refreshing to the eye, but it is perhaps in October that the colours of the Lake are most charming. The willows change from green to silver gray and delicate russet, with a red tone on the stems and branches, casting colors on the clear water of the Lake, which contrast most beautifully with the rich olives and yellow greens of the floating masses of water weed. The chinars are warm with crimson, and the poplars stand up like golden poles to the sky. On the mountain sides, the trees are red and gold and the scene one of unequalled loveliness.``
Of the valley he wrote, ``Looking at the map of Kashmir, one sees a white footprint set in a mass of black mountains. This is the celebrated Valley, perched securely among the Himalayas at an average height of 6,000 feet above the sea. It is approximately 84 miles in length and 20 to 25 miles in breadth On the west, and wherever the mountainsides are sheltered from the hot breezes of the Punjab plains, which blow across the intervening mountains, there are grand forests of pines and firs. Down the tree-clad slopes, dash mountain streams white with foam, passing in their course through pools of the purest cobalt. When the great dark forests cease and the brighter woodland begins, the banks of the streams are ablaze with clematis, honeysuckle, jasmine, and wild roses which remind one of azaleas. The green smooth turf of the woodland glades is like well-kept lawns, dotted with clumps of hawthorn and other beautiful trees and bushes.``
But the most lyrical passage in Lawrence`s account is where he describes the colours of Kashmir and the quality of light which is unique to the valley. ``It would be difficult to describe the colours that are seen on the Kashmir mountains. In early morning, they are often a delicate semi-transparent violet relieved against a saffron sky, and with light vapours clinging round their crests. The rising sun deepens the shadows and produces sharp outlines and strong passages of blue and lavender, with white snow peaks and ridges under a vertical sun; and as the afternoon wears on, these become richer violet and pale bronze, gradually changing to rose and pink with yellow or orange snow, till the last rays of the sun have gone, leaving the mountains dyed a ruddy crimson, with the snows showing a pale creamy green by contrast. Looking downward from the mountains, the Valley in the sunshine has the hues of an opal, the pale reds of the karewa, the vivid light greens of the young rice, and the darker shades of the groves of trees relieved by sunlight sheets, gleams of water and soft blue haze, give a combination of tints reminding one irresistibly of the changing hues of that gem. It is impossible to do justice to the beauty and grandeur of the mountains of Kashmir, or to enumerate the lovely glades and forests, visited by so few.``
The Kashmir that so entranced Lawrence does not exist beyond the pages of his chronicle. What remains of its beauty is on its way to extinction. As are its people. The world stands aside and watches in silence while death and destruction consume the valley, the white footprint set in a mass of black mountains.
#21 Posted by veeresh on August 6, 2000 12:40:33 am
RDesikan 16: No, we would like all of us to visit Kashmir just as all of us can visit anywhere else in the world and live like human beings together except in our countries. Incidentally, about tourists dying in Kashmir, more tourists are bumped off in Miami than in all of Kashmir.
friend 18: What is wrong in interspersing a car review with a travel/tourist/socio article? Gives it credibility, the man did not go there on the invitation of a government or a political party or some vested interests . . .
friend 19: Conversion of Buddhist temples from as far away as Central Asia, Afghanistan, even Iraq, is well documented. Difference being that some became Hindu, some became Muslim and some vanished. Do you know where the largest statue of the Budha into stone is?
Very seriously, if we could have some simple articles about day-to-day life in Pakistan without any ``socio-political`` overetones or religious chants, maybe we would know each other better. I say one thing here : it was safer for me to send my daughter by bus to Lahore / I`bad / Taxila than it would be for her to ride a Delhi - Haridwarr bus in Western U.P. But nobody will write it, see?
whatever
#20 Posted by Pankaj on August 5, 2000 10:29:35 pm
re to #8, 13 Ras Siddiqui and scout
Hi folks
I wish you could come to Indian Kashmir. And see the hapless,beautiful people writhing in the marauding claws of Death. Perhaps you could peep into their terror stricken hearts and comfort their anguished soul. Perhaps you could know about the tragedy that that has become a part of the life of Kashmiri people. And perhaps you could see the other( Indian)side of the story.
Oh Kashmir , thou Irony-incarnate. Where the saffron scented zephyrs caress the wounds of the dead! Where the flurry of bullets greet the morning sun, and the wails of women salute every setting sun. Where the darkness preavils,where the people are despaired of light. A murderous calm mutes the stifled sound of peace. Where shrieking bullets of the terrorists silence any Kashmiri Hindu in the name of Islam. And Muslims huddle together anticipating.
Such are the environs of Pradise on the earth!!!. If this is a paradise who needs a hell.
Cheers
Hi folks
I wish you could come to Indian Kashmir. And see the hapless,beautiful people writhing in the marauding claws of Death. Perhaps you could peep into their terror stricken hearts and comfort their anguished soul. Perhaps you could know about the tragedy that that has become a part of the life of Kashmiri people. And perhaps you could see the other( Indian)side of the story.
Oh Kashmir , thou Irony-incarnate. Where the saffron scented zephyrs caress the wounds of the dead! Where the flurry of bullets greet the morning sun, and the wails of women salute every setting sun. Where the darkness preavils,where the people are despaired of light. A murderous calm mutes the stifled sound of peace. Where shrieking bullets of the terrorists silence any Kashmiri Hindu in the name of Islam. And Muslims huddle together anticipating.
Such are the environs of Pradise on the earth!!!. If this is a paradise who needs a hell.
Cheers
#19 Posted by friend on August 5, 2000 10:29:35 pm
veeresh,
May be as a fellow history buff of Murad, you may like to enlighten me about Shankaracharya ``converting`` budhhist temples in Badrinath and Kashmir.
Regards
May be as a fellow history buff of Murad, you may like to enlighten me about Shankaracharya ``converting`` budhhist temples in Badrinath and Kashmir.
Regards
#18 Posted by friend on August 5, 2000 10:29:35 pm
veeresh #15,
We very happily accept the credentials of Murad presented by you. However, a car review inserted in a sequence of socio-politiocal articles certainly looks odd. May be next time we will find an article about ``Tajmahal and how to grow potatos`` from an agriculturist.
An article only about Kashmir (or only about comparison between different cars) would certainly have been more acceptable.
BTW, all paragraphs about Kashmir were really well written,
Regards
We very happily accept the credentials of Murad presented by you. However, a car review inserted in a sequence of socio-politiocal articles certainly looks odd. May be next time we will find an article about ``Tajmahal and how to grow potatos`` from an agriculturist.
An article only about Kashmir (or only about comparison between different cars) would certainly have been more acceptable.
BTW, all paragraphs about Kashmir were really well written,
Regards
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