Faith, Religion and National Direction

hi`

guys

though i would be off-point to current discussion,i would like to suggest that all chowk citizen have a dekho at www.kamat.com.

a thoroughly well made website provides excellent links to various facets of subcontinent culture.

the richness and diversity in indian subcontinent comes through and makes me feel proud to part of this culture.

i hope visitors to chowk would appreciate richness of our common culture and would stop bickering.

regards

msingh

Truth # 42

“As a private religion, Islam will be around forever successfully and this is Pakistani`s joy. As a state religion, Islam is hopelessly out of date and this is Pakistan`s fundamental problem.”

I would like to refer you to the spirit and sense of my article: we do abide by the essence of Islam as a guiding factor in the conduct of our daily lives. Correct. I do not see it as a “fundamental problem”, but rather as manipulated distortion by the vested interest groups who do not understand the true Faith; and that Islam the Religion is ‘logic’ and ‘reason’, not “out of date”, but very much dynamic and forward-looking in the essentials.

Sarwari # 94

Thanks for your sentiments.

Let me clarify through a reply to your comments, that my intention was not to generate any Pakistan-India or inter-religion verbal duels that have unfortunately caused unwanted friction on the site. I sincerely feel that the extremists and ‘clouded-thinking’ persons belonging to religious parties in both countries are not interested in allowing rational thought to develop. (Sameer JB # 100: are you on board?)

The treatment of minorities is probably obnoxious in both cases, not by design as far as Pakistan State policy is concerned: this is my personal assertion.

I would like to commend Pankaj # 101 (and Scout # 107) for the views/comments, which are eminently sensible and reflective of a majority of right-thinking individuals in both countries.

Views expressed by bahmed (Bilal) # 172 are fully endorsed. Thank you.

macgupta # 108

I suggest you read: “Understanding the Muslim Mind” by Rajmohan Gandhi, “The Spirit of Islam” by Syed Ameer Ali, “ The Holy Quran: Translation and Commentary” by Maulana Abdulla Yusuf Ali, “Islam and Democracy” by Fatima Mernissi, and “The Living Islam” by Akbar S. Ahmed.

The claims of Islam as an embodiment of TRUTH are absolute, not as a finality of itself but as a beacon of light for humanity’s conduct and life. You are confusing the issue of fact and sentiment.

Veeresh # 205

Thank you. Actually, everyone is a thinking animal – ‘vardi’ imposes quite a few prohibitions on expression of personal views and communication by way of articles such as these (thanks to CHOWK). This is true of every armed forces in the world; some do allow expression of personal views etc, even political association like in the USA, if it is not in conflict with the Institutional regulations or policy.

Everyone: There is a greater issue of inter-mixing cultures and religious symbolisms which are more often than not ethnic and nationalistic in character.

I personally think that there is now a universal `culture` which has permeated all strata of society worldwide, (``pop and burger`` culture I call it!)This causes more restrictive thinking and commotion (refer to Huntington`s tome `Clash of Civilisations` and also Fujiyama`s `End of History`.

I am working on that theme and hope to put it across on `Chowk` soon.

Urstruly: Thanks for your good wishes.

Tahmed321:

You said:

{stayavadi #204, you wrote ``see what image u people have created``.

``Why do you worry about Pakistanis` image with other people? Anyone having a single image of a country of millions and millions of people is surely such a moron (I could name a few illustrious contributors to chowk here) that his/her image is not worth being concerned with.``}

I was surprised to read this post of yours. I reread my post #204 and couldnt find it. I think Devkant made that comment in his post #203.

Coming to the poin you raised let me ask you. Is there something called collective image of a group? The answer is, there IS and it is different from individual image. Every person in a group is an exception to the group image.

Say for exmaple the image of Americans is that they are generally tolerant of or indifferent to (relatively speaking) the sexual orientation of people. Is that image wrong? No. but still you dont expect a KKK member to hug and kiss a homosexual, do you?



Hope you get the point.

Satyavadi

stayavadi #204, you wrote ``see what image u people have created``.

Why do you worry about Pakistanis` image with other people? Anyone having a single image of a country of millions and millions of people is surely such a moron (I could name a few illustrious contributors to chowk here) that his/her image is not worth being concerned with.

RE: Mateen

Get well soon Mr. Mohajir.

Best wishes

Hello All! My father, Mateen Mohajir, asked me to convey his appologies for not being able to reply to all your responses/comments as he had promised to do today. He`s down with high fever/flu and has not been able to sit on the PC/ internet. However, he wants you all to know that he would be doing so at the earliest possible once he recovers.

Shabkhez

Dear Brigadier Sahib . . . why is it that faujis on both sides, India and Pakistan, tend to get very intelligent only AFTER they retire and pen stuff which shows the world that above the spine and backbone that they positively have, they also have something more called a head?

Here is something by the soon to be retiring Army Chief in India . . . is it any different at your end, other than that you have taken out the civilian irritants?

Actually the Armed Forces of our countries have a lot to answer about what they were doing after 1947, agreeing to accept British Chiefs of Staff and stuff like that . . . oh well . . .

Anyways, Sirji, well written thesis. Only one thing: religion (and Kashmir) not going to feed our people, for sure . . .

+++ (this is utaroed from rediff . . .)

Pak exploiting our weaknesses: Malik



Retiring Chief of Army Staff General V P Malik has said Pakistan was exploiting India`s internal dissension and weaknesses of ethnicity, communal, caste and creed, and corruption to try and weaken the country.

There was an imperative need for a consensus on national security, Malik said in an interview to Asia Defence News International.

Malik stressed three points that needed to be tackled: take care of people`s problems so that alienation does not set in, fight militancy along the Line of Control and internally through better intelligence gathering, better co-ordination, and Indian foreign policy must send a clear message to Pakistan that it cannot keep India bleeding and the international community must be made to realise that this ``terrorist state`` business is not doing any good to the world.

``With the kind of proxy war that is going on today, the chances of war are much more than they were 10 years back or even five years back. By and large the nuclear factor stands neutralised today on both sides. Of course, in their case, the button is with one man. In our case, the situation is quite different, but our policies are very clear - we will do it only when they do it. They will not be so stupid... They will do it only when they are really hurt,`` the army chief, who retires on September 30, said.

Underscoring that the overuse of the army in internal security duties must stop, he pointed out that it has come to a point that people are talking about bringing in the army to deal with forest brigand Veerappan. Maintenance of law and order is the primary responsibility of the state governments and it is the responsibility of the police and intelligence agencies.

``The Central Reserve Police Force and Border Security Force need to be revamped. They need better equipment, training and leadership at the junior and senior levels. This tendency to call the army every time for internal security purposes will be extremely damaging.

``The Rashtriya Rifles was set up for low intensity conflicts, to deal with proxy wars. Now people are talking of handing it over to the ministry of home affairs. The Rashtriya Rifles is 100 per cent of armymen. We send our boys to the Rashtriya Rifles for two years after which they return. If they are placed under the command of the police, their operational efficiency and army ethos will be adversely affected,`` Malik said.

He applauded dialogue with the Hizbul Mujahideen and said that he had told the government that there was no alternative. ``You have to speak to them because if the people come to know that we are not wanting to talk to these people, the whole of Jammu and Kashmir`s population will be alienated... Initially, Pakistan felt that we may not accept it. Then they developed cold feet and then they went out of their way to stop it.

``These are things you need to be very clear about. Kashmir is not an average Pakistan agenda. Kashmir is basically a Pakistan military agenda. The military in Pakistan, particularly the army, cannot give up the rationale for the status that they have acquired, the position that they have entered politically and economically.``

``The Inter Services Intelligence is part and parcel of the Pakistan army. That machine is controlled and commanded by it. Today you are giving them more credit not because they are more efficient, but because of our problems and weaknesses. They are able to exploit our weaknesses,`` Malik said.

He said the recent upsurge in violence in J&K was temporary. ``But one thing I am sure would have gone home to the people of J&K is that the Government of India`s heart is clean. They are prepared to talk. We have been able to show to them our desire to bring about peace and tranquility. So that is a plus point.``

``It will also be clear to the population of J&K that all these people are stooges of the other side, of Pakistan. They are more concerned about including Pakistan in talks. They want freedom and if that were so there is no reason for them to want Pakistan included in the talks. So that is quite evident to everybody in Kashmir,`` Malik said.

He said it was not possible to stop infiltration.

On the home ministry proposal to put up barbed wire from Pathankot, along with other gadgetry like radars, sensors and night vision devices, he said it will be able to check infiltration to a greater extent, but will not be able to eliminate it.

Referring to demands for a restructuring of the defence ministry, he said that for 53 years it consisted only of civilian officials. ``Whatever I suggest has to be processed by them. I am responsible to the man on the ground. If he doesn`t have the weapons he tells me: `Sir, what is this you are asking me to do`. Now when I ask the same thing from the ministry, he doesn`t have the same sense of accountability or urgency.

``In the earlier days, there used to be a single file system. Anyone`s remarks would go up to the minister. Now, you have a double file system. Our remarks are kept in a file and their remarks are kept in another file and I don`t get to know, the army headquarters or the service headquarters do not know. What is the rationale? Therefore, there is no alternative to integration of the ministry of defence and the service headquarters for better responses, better understanding and for cost-effectiveness,`` Malik said.

On the appointment of an appellate tribunal to handle cases of disgruntlement over promotions in the armed forces, the chief of staff indicated that there was a difference of opinion over whether the findings of the tribunal will go directly to the Supreme Ccourt or be referred to the high court.

UNI

devkant #203:

Jealous, you did make me. But then, what do you expect from some one eating Upama for three dinners in succession ?:)

I am working to get the situation remedied, by calling up this evening, my aunt`s old neighbour`s something something`s daughter.....

Wish me luck.

Actually, I checked siftpune.com and not org as I wrote before. But couldnt find u there. Anyways, mail me at kewal23@yahoo.com, when you get a chance.

Satyavadi

#202, ylh...

``but I dont know why you will tell me that you drink ...

all my friends drink ... and all three of my heroes ... Jinnah Ataturk and Bhutto drank much more than you ever could ... and quality too

But why does a liberal and good pakistani necessarily have to drink ????``

it seems that you aren`t so stuck up about boozing as u were the last time we interacted. thats really good for u. as far as your heroes drinking quality....well...quality is a perception that differs from person to person. quality to u might seem trash to me.

and u claiming that your heroes drank much more than i ever did, well....since u don`t know me personally, i`m not sure if thats a valid comment.

satyavadi....

u may like my vanishing - appearing act, but i don`t because it prevents me from being a part of some good discussion. i was in bombay since the last 3 days and i had all the great food stuff we had spoken about. hope it makes u feel jealous.

as far as siftpune.org is concerned, it will never work because thats not the right address.

the correct one is www.siftpune.com and our guys hope to update it 2 weeks time. since most of the work is done by the students itself, it might take a while before things get done here.

and now a little bit of something to the others......

if what is written in the article is true, we in india are looking at an extremely unstable neighbour who, if i percieve correctly, is paying the price of its own doing. throw in a bit of nuclearism and what we have here is a potentially explosive situation. a strong and prosporous pakistan is in the best interests of india. by simply being an outside spectator to the drama in pakistan, the sparks that will fly from across the border will hurt india as much as it is hurting pakistan. india must appeal to the international community to come to the aid of pakistan and make sure that the aid goes to the right places and not to wasteful and non-productive expenditures like defence.

i know many pakistanis will not agree with me, but thats fine. u don`t need to believe what i say. just take a look around the world and see what image u people have created for your selves.

one more thing.....these comments of mine are purely based on what i read in the article. my comments are subject to change if what is written by brigadier sahab is not true.

Thanks for the sentiments devkant ...

but I dont know why you will tell me that you drink ...

all my friends drink ... and all three of my heroes ... Jinnah Ataturk and Bhutto drank much more than you ever could ... and quality too

But why does a liberal and good pakistani necessarily have to drink ????

sure devkant thanks for the offer

scout:

I am willing to wait. Dont they say, good things dont come easy ? BTW, if its going to be after two years, then you might have to host ATLEAST two people :)

devkant:

welcome again. i like your vanishing-appearing act :)

``i was wondering that if scout chachiji does decide to honour mumbai or pune with her prescence, i should offer to host her....what u say?????``

what me says? do it AYOR :) JK.

BTW, did check siftpune.org, didnt help though.

Good luck with your job search and enjoy while you can. Yeh din fir nahi aayenge. Can say from

my experience of the very recent past.

Satyavadi

hi people....(ylh in particular),

first of all....brigadier saheb....u`ve written a great article....whether true or not, i`m not sure `cause i`m not a pakistani and nor have i ever been to pakistan. so i`m not sure if i`m in a position to comment. also my perceptions of pakistan may be much different from some other people here. so its best for me to keep my comments reserved. and also most of the things that i have percived of pakistan have already been said.

anyway....

it seems i`ve missed out on a lot of great discussion, arguments etc. whatever u all may call it. as much as i would have liked to have been a part of it, i couldn`t `cause i had exams, submissions and above all job hunting. ( gotta find a way to make a living, isn`t it???)

i see souct chachi is coming to delhi. now thats very bad. why is chachiji only going to delhi?? why not mumbai or pune for that matter???

chachiji....people from mumbai and pune are very sad that u r not coming.

# ylh....

my great friend....i`ve been drinking like a fish and remembering u everytime i have a peg!!!!

hope u r having a great time in pakistan. and belated happy independance day.

# satyavadi....

i was wondering that if scout chachiji does decide to honour mumbai or pune with her prescence, i should offer to host her....what u say?????

devkant.

Dear Urstruly,

A.O.A

Not really as slippery as some of the other `fish` in the Chowk pond!

Regards,

Mateen

Dear All (specially Bilal)

A.O.A.

My apologies for being out of the wonderful discussion, posturing, presenting, swapping thoughts -- and INTERACTING!

I have been down with some bad flu (is there any `good` flu?!!)and now recovering: I have sneaked to the PC dodging the eagle-eye of my `better` half!

I have downloaded all the replies (`posts` as Bilal puts it) and will get through them by tomorrow. I do intend to push through my replies/points/rejoinders (some !) and hope that the CHOWK Staff does not beat me out by putting this article in the `previous` section!!

Thanks, Chowk Staff!

Regards,

Mateen

Oye Kurhiyo te mundyo

Thand khao thand

Larhai karo band