Faith, Religion and National Direction

Mateen #75

You said that ``I believe in creation (special creation theory) and not evolution as all people of book do.``

First of all why do you believe in special creation theory. Can you tell me from an Islamic perspective with Ayah of Koran.

Because for me evolution can be interpreted to be correct according to Koran.

If you are interested let me collect my ammunition.

Tell me Qazi Hussain is saying that there should be no representation of women in local council. Is it non-Islamic or ``Bughz-e-Muawiya``(N.G.O`s)

RE: Sadhna #80

Dear Sadhna!

I think Iranian Democracy is passing through a brief phase of McCarthy-ism. They well get over it. The McCarthyism always dies eventually.

Regards

The author says:
``More often than not, the `teaching` of religion gets mired in the many conflicts between differing groups and settled questions of `doctrine` become major flashpoints of discord.``

Also please see:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/middle_east/newsid_887000/887233.stm and related links at this site.
The news item pertains to events in the continuing struggle in Iran between the conservatives and pro-reform press and MPs, presently with regard to the pro-reform press, shutting down of newspapers and arrest of journalists. Excerpt:

``...A week ago, more than half the deputies in the Iranian parliament signed an open letter pledging to push ahead with their pro-reform agenda.

They were responding to a call by the supreme leader, Ayatollah Ali Khamenei, for parliament to suspend its efforts to liberalise the country`s press laws.

In their letter, MPs warned the conservative establishment that, if the reform movement failed, society would suffer and the whole Islamic system would be in danger...`` (end excerpt)

A question for the author and others speaking of incorporation of religious tenets and religious figures in the system is `who should have the final say in Iran? Who are better guardians of an `Islamic` system and its ideology, the elected representatives or the religious heads? `

Sadhana

Bilal,Rashid, and Mateen Mohajir Sahibaan,

I was feeling a little YLHish today- so I thought I should share it with you to see how do you opine.

According to GOP figures hardly 30% of the vote casting population casts votes. Conservative estimates reduce this percentage to 20% and in some cases down to 17%. I think this attitude is indicative of the abhorrence of the people, or at least their indifference towards the “present” system of democratic governance. After a little research I found the common denominator beneath this attitude; and it was that the people just find themselves so perplexed during elections that it becomes almost impossible for them to choose among the lesser of the evils. Some people have even questioned that why they only get to choose among the evils in the first place. If you can remember Allama’s couplet about Democracy where he said that it is a system where heads are counted and not weighed, then you will exactly know what I mean. So I thought of the following:

1. Casting a vote should be made mandatory- as a matter of fact it should be made a criminal offence not to exercise ones right to vote.

2. On the ballot paper, among the list of candidates, there should be a block titled “None of the above”.

3. If in a certain constituency the total number of ballots cast with the option “None of the above” are found to reach a certain pre-set percentage limit, all candidates should be disqualified for life. Then a new set of candidates should come forward and the whole process is repeated until…..

4. ----- until a candidate comes up with a certain number of votes that matches the pre-set qualifying limit.

5. Even after election people should have an option to run a signature petition to hold interim election in a constituency if they find that the candidate that they chose is not delivering his promises. (On a side note, I think that it will also reduce the traffic to Heera Mundi). I think France has this system of signature petitions. Since one of our Chacha Ji is already doing it, so it is Kosher.

6. I think this procedure will bring only the best forward- the best who cannot compete-the best who choose not to dare. I also think that this procedure will gradually eliminate the hold of ‘Biradari System” and sure will eliminate feudal nature of politics.

So what do you think?

Rashid! I am still sifting through the plethora of information that you put in your last post-meanwhile I am organizing my thoughts to compose a reply. I am also feeling a little Mateen Mohajirish today-didn’t you notice the use of word ‘plethora’.

Mr. Mohajir-I hope you are familiar with the term ``YLHish``- if not please dont hesitate to ask.

With reference to Replies 16 to 20:

What is the politics and identity of Chowk?

We want Chowk to find its own personality - an emergent personality. To a large extent Chowk is an adaptive purposeful system akin to a living organism. The second dimension called InterAction! lends Chowk the character of a street theater where things happen on the fly. Chowk is real-time journalism, Chowk is antithetical to manufactured consent. We try not to control for the sake of any particular ideology, philosophy, ethnicity.

Chowk is an intersection, a meeting point, a town square. There are always more travelers [those who stay for a few months and then move on] than residents [the regular voices]. Residents have their own leanings and biases. Often these leanings resonate with the travelers.

Chowk does not have a gender, color, religion, orientation, etc. How can it? It is a Chowk.
Residents and travelers are the ones who make Chowk look a certain way on certain days.

There is no bar on what is written - in general we will not let Chowk gravitate to the level of the lowest common denominator.

On the thorny issue of India and Pakistan, North and South - Chowk does not editorialize or promote any message. The residents and travelers have to only abide to the simple rules of Chowk disucssions.

Chowk may not have a visa to enter but it certainly has a passport for identification and passage. On that passport there is no picture, no statement for religion, nationality, gender, sexual orientation, limitation for entry and exit, color, identifying marks, etc.

Specifically, lest you think Chowk does not have a specific position - Chowk is left of center, modern, rational, independent of doctrine and dogma. We will not preach or allow religious fomentation, jingoism and nationalism, including fascism, etc.

Krashid writes: My thinking is if Bhutto was alive, he would have ...turn(ed) Pakistan into an Asian tiger.

Actually, Pakistan was seen to be a model developing nation with sustained 6% GDP growth rates in the early 1960`s, until Bhutto took over. This growth was derailed by the 1965 war (instigated by then foreign minister Bhutto`s ambitions and Ayub`s vainglory); the nationalization of Banks and of manufacturing units (by PM Bhutto). So, Bhutto turned Pakistan from a tiger into a mouse, and that is what Pakistan has remained to this day. Let us hope the ``Chief Executive`` and his band of technocrats can turn the tide. They seem to have some right ideas.

On Islam and Pakistan: They say that little knowledge is a dangerous thing. Given the total lack of understanding of what Islam is all about in Pakistan (it is about learning, about tolerance, not about subjugating women by pretending to protect them) let us start by something more modest: Try to bring Pakistan into the ranks of civilized human societies with mass poverty and illiteracy and joblessness first, and then talk about Islam.

todays news post at nytimes.com

August 19, 2000

Pakistani Is Arrested in Argentina Attacks

By THE ASSOCIATED PRESS

WASHINGTON, Aug. 18 -- American agents have arrested a Pakistani wanted by the Argentine authorities for questioning in the bombings of the Israeli Embassy in Buenos Aires in 1992 and of a Jewish cultural center there in 1994.

An Immigration and Naturalization Service spokeswoman, Nancy Cohen, confirmed the arrest in Los Angeles of Muhammad Abass Malik, on grounds that he was in the United States without proper documentation. Ms. Cohen said she had no additional information on the man.

The chief of Argentina`s intelligence service, Fernando de Santibanes, disclosed the arrest to The Associated Press on Tuesday, the day Mr. Malik was taken into custody. But there was no confirmation by any American government agency until today.

Mr. Santibanes, on a visit to the United States, said Argentine authorities believe Mr. Malik ``is related`` to the embassy bombing and ``may have a connection`` to the bombing at the Jewish center.

Mr. Santibanes said they based their view on information obtained by Interpol.

An in-depth look at the ugly face of religious extremism

The Independent, Bangladesh

by Jamal Hasan

``History, despite its wrenching pain, cannot be unlived. But if faced with courage need not be lived again.`` - Maya Angelou

This goes back to the time when seventy-five million people of the erstwhile province of East Pakistan were engaged in a life and death struggle against an army bent on genocide to preserve the power and privileges of ruling elite hailing from the opposite end of the subcontinent. Enayet Karim, a career diplomat in the Pakistani Foreign Ministry, had just defected from the service in protest against the genocidal military campaign in East Pakistan. Karim unveiled his future plans to a group of students and newsmen on the campus of an east coast university in the USA. A Bengali activist in America has written an eyewitness account of that tumultuous meeting. A West Pakistani member of the audience demanded angrily of Mr. Karim, ``Is Islam dead? Can it no longer keep Pakistan united?``Enayet Karim replied with his legendary eloquence, ``The Islam that was born in 1947 is dead. But the Islam that was born 14 centuries ago is very much alive and will continue to live and thrive a lot better in an independent, secular and democratic Bangladesh than in a Pakistan groaning under the heels of military dictatorship.``Sad to say, Enayet Karim`s optimism has failed the test of time. Today`s Bangladesh would have sorely disappointed the veteran diplomat if he were still alive. The Pakistani brand of Islam has not only gained a foothold in Bangladesh, but has even experienced a mushroom growth during the last quarter of a century. Thanks to two military dictators and a chain of events that took place in this impoverished land since mid-August 1975. It is a matter of great regret that the traditional Sufi Islam of our land is being supplanted with a harsh and intolerant brand of Islam that overran Pakistan a long time ago. Bangladesh had traditionally been home to an eclectic and serene brand of Islam. However, the trauma of 1971 caused a profound change among the orthodox Islamists. Pakistan had been the fruit of their aspirations. Not even the genocide of 1971 could shake their faith in Pakistan. They remained convinced that a united Pakistan was necessary to make the sub-continent safe for Islam. Even in the darkest hours of 1971, they continued to believe that turning their back on Pakistan was tantamount to betraying Islam - a Gunah of some sort.Bengali Muslims have historically been loyal to pan-Islamic causes. Their contribution to major movements such as Khilafat Movement was by no means insignificant. Islamic brotherhood has always meant a great deal to Bengali Muslims. They have traditionally been very generous in extending support to any crusade fought under the banner of Islam. The Bengali Muslims could thus be drawn very easily into supporting a cause if its upholders could claim that it was an Islamic one. They were even prepared to forgive a ``Muslim`` murderer because ``all Muslims are brothers,`` an erroneous concept. During the 1971 pogrom in Bangladesh, some people were willing to turn a blind eye to Pak army`s record of rape and torture because the crimes were deemed to have been committed to make the sub-continent safe for Islam. It was indeed quite shocking to some of the devout to witness the extent of brutality that the Pakistanis were indulging in to make the sub-continent safe for Islam. Neither the Pak army, nor the defenders of Islam in distant Islamabad showed the slightest remorse for the systematic rape and murder that was being carried out incessantly in every nook and cranny of the erstwhile province of East Pakistan. For many a non-political devout Muslim, this was an extraordinary trauma, to say the least.Bengali Muslims had flocked to the Pakistan Movement with the hope of social and economic emancipation. Theological considerations either had taken the backseat for many or else had played no significant role whatsoever. In fact, a great majority of the conservative Islamists including some notable Deobandis were against partitioning the sub-continent based on the two-nation theory. Ironical as it might sound, many a party of these Islamists like Nezam-I-Islami, turned overnight into fervent defenders of Pakistan after 1947. I am hardly surprised that many a member of these parties chose to misplace their moral compass and suppress their conscience in 1971. With the high-brow Bhadroloks of the Calcutta elite entrenched in power in pre-Pakistan Bengal, it was but natural that the rising Muslim middle class would be forced into a confrontation to get a fair share of the pie. The Muslim underclass in rural Bengal had firsthand experience of humiliations at the hands of the rich and arrogant upper caste Brahmins. Class conflicts are the norm rather than exception in many a society. In Bengal, they were exacerbated by the fact that class division was roughly along the religious line. Therefore, situation was just ripe for Mohammad Ali Jinnah to become the pied piper of Hamelin as he led the Bengalis on the path to Pakistan with the purpose of turning a part of the sub-continent into a safe haven for the aristocrats of Uttar Pradesh and the mercantile class of the Malabar Coast of Indian peninsula.Inevitably, the ruling class in nascent Pakistan turned to Jinnah`s pan-Islamism to advance its own interests. Thus, it hardly took long for it to project Urdu, the language of a tiny minority, as Pakistan`s national language. Rulers of Pakistan were determined to stamp the supremacy of their ways on the nation. It was a none-too-subtle way to force the citizenry into kowtowing to the new rulers of the land. It didn`t take long for Liaquat Ali Khan to decide to cleanse Karachi of its indigenous culture. The landmarks of the city, that reminded the new rulers of non-Muslim Sindhis, were overnight renamed with proper ``Islamic`` names. Under the circumstances, it was hardly surprising that Jinnah would declare arrogantly and unabashedly in Dhaka in front of a predominantly Bengali audience that Urdu, and Urdu alone, was fit to be Pakistan`s state language!The power brokers of the western wing of Pakistan had traditionally held a rather low opinion of the Bengalis. This coterie, serving mainly Punjabi and Muhajir interests, considered Bengalis racially inferior to them. They had both the arrogance and audacity to regard the Bengalis to be practitioner of a brand of Islam that was less than pure! Anthony Mascarenhas, a Dawn correspondent from Karachi, wrote in 1971 of the racist bigotry in the predominantly Punjabi army. At the height of the genocide in 1971, he was shocked beyond words to discover that Pakistan`s military officers would nonchalantly joke in the army mess about the wholesale rapes in East Pakistan as the army`s contribution to improve the genes of East Pakistanis! I find it mind-boggling that Bengali members of Jamaat-e-Islami or the Muslim League not only condoned but even supported the predominantly Punjabi Pak army in its demonic campaign of rape and murder in East Pakistan to make Pakistan safe for Islam.

Vikram # 13 Thanks for the suggestion. I fancy myself as a free thinking spirit, not tied down to any “domain”. I would like to reflect and muse on whatever affects me – not as a ‘strategist’, “keyboard” or “vardi”, but as an individual person who makes up the chessboard of life!

AI # 11 It is not a “psychosis” at this point – it is a matter of substantially upgrading the quality of life of not only Pakistanis, but also the human dignity. Without a resolution of the Kashmir issue, we can have no ‘better’ anything. The plain fact is that only.

Fairdinkum # 10 Some truths are secrets best left unkept – and some are in the nature of being “third secrets”.

I do not subscribe to the view that the Pakistan Army is either the “elitist of the elite” or that it has been responsible as a major source of plight of our people. I believe that we need to have a better understanding of why events occurred – of course, there have been many ambitious and “bonapartist” elements in the Army hierarchy of the past; but seriously and conscientiously I make this statement: “The present dispensation has come about as a consequence, but it is going to deliver, Insha Allah”.

Narain # 8 You have read the quote I picked from Mr. Iqbal Akhund’s bio, out of context. What he has implied and what I have used the quote for is to make a point: if you read further down my article you will, hopefully, understand. “The ‘good’ of all religions is the same”. We Muslims falter because we make ‘form’ rather than create ‘substance’ – we would rather be projecting our “true muslimness”, than being truly muslim. Like your Thackeray or the RSS types!

I have also tried to argue that we are capable of being a modern Islamic State – you do not seem to have got the drift. Too busy looking at the woods and missing the trees?!!

I cannot discuss ‘evolution’, where I believe in ‘creation’ – as all people of the Books do. Darwinian precepts are in the nature of picking up the micro-bits, and trying to fashion a mass matter.

Urstruly # 36

Well, frankly, I just had to answer a call from my friend, MAAARSMAAAN!!

I agree with the drift of yourthinking. ‘Ijtehad’ is, in my opinion, equitable to practical democracy in line with our society, education/literacy and awareness/development. Most importantly, we have to get away from feudal and materialistic culture – and more especially the corruption.

Appointments to the FSC or CII etcetera are best left to the people who are elected and who would formulate ‘Rules of Business’: if the supreme body of elected people (call it Parliament, Majlis, Jamaat whatever) decides to make appointments directly to all federal posts, why should there be any quibbling?

Incidentally I agree to your assertion that system of governance should be based on social justice, egalitarianism and humanism. I believe the persons who occupy the august place of supreme representation, should not be clods or dadas but with a modicum of base education and qualifications. Otherwise, we will continue to have Islamabad doling out ‘development’ funds which acts as justification enough to merrily build more RAIWIND palaces and ROCHESTER mansions. I think the ‘Local Bodies and Devolution Plan’ unveiled on 14th August, is a pretty good start towards getting the various tiers of peoples representation in perspective and, ultimately, proper administration leading to good governance.

LOCAL GOVERNMENT = PROPER ADMINISTRATION + SUPERIOR QUALITY OF LIFE

+ ENHANCED VALUES + LAW AND ORDER

PROVINCIAL GOVT = EFFECTIVE LAWS + BETTER ADMINISTRATION THROUGH COORDINATION + GOVERNANCE

FEDERAL GOVT = LEGISLATION + NATIONAL COHESION + FISCAL STRENGTH + GOOD GOVERNANCE

I do not agree with you on the criticism of NGOs and their modus operandi.

FerozK # 35

I don’t think I understand your statement(s) correctly.

All Organisations have bull sessions to hammer out strategic and tactical business aims. The Army also has routine ‘talk’ sessions where the Commanders do get some frank views, queries and opinions from the officers, including middle-level and junior. There are also the ‘durbars’, again at all tiers of command; definitely once a month at the Unit level (Lieutenant Colonel command). At such durbars too, the soldiers are at liberty to speak their mind.

Of course the Army does not (SHOULD NOT!) tolerate any ‘insubordinate dissension’ or ‘disobedience’. Neither does any good Corporation or MNC.

Frankly, I presume that there might be many officers in the lower ranks who do have a different opinion on how things are to be done – don’t you? They have a choice of shutting up, speaking out or getting out!

Sigalph # 23

I may also respectfully reiterate: our religious ‘leaders’ have signally failed to either understand the true Faith or act as true ‘tableeghies’. As I have stated above and also tried to suggest in the article, the gentlemen (‘maulvis’ as you also have implicitly acknowledged) who act as our faith minders, have misunderstanding and brazenly confuse between ‘form’ and ‘substance’ of Islam.

Asif Naqshbandi # 20

I have deep reservations on Prof Tahir Ul Qadri and his views – even though he has moderated a lot from the late 80s/early 90s when Minhaj Ul Quran was founded (and he also prospered)with a lot of help and support of the then CM of Punjab!

Humsat # 18

My sentence may have been a bit incorrect in structure – what I meant was that the basic doctrine remains firm, not subject to modification or some other interpretation. However, Islam is a Faith based upon logic and reason and is fully amenable to change in style and outlook without alteration to the fundamental tenets.

That is why it is a Living Faith, not dormant or locked away in the masjid or prayer hall only.

That is also why we do not have priests as interlocutors.

And that is why I find it very disconcerting to see so many Shrines and Data Nagris, and the thousands of misled folks who gather there (given quite a bit of impetus by our worthy Auqaf dept, which gets fat on the income generated!)

Jay # 17

Thanks.

Maybe you should say ‘Zindabad’ (Long Live)!

I have some reservations about the thrust of Krashid`s commentary. With all due respect I disagree with the remark about Islamic parties

``and their sole purpose is not to get power in the name of Islam.``

Indeed that IS their sole purpose. The Islamic party`s idea of democracy is very simple: one man, one vote, ONE TIME. They have reluctantly agreed to democratic norms only to get power and, once this is achieved, strangulate the system so that nobody else can challenge them. They did this successfully in Iran and Sudan and have been stopped, only with herculean efforts, in Algeria, Jordan, and Turkey. In these Machiavellian antics, they are no different from the Nazis, the Fascists and the Communists. All came to power thru the ballot box and then got rid of the same box. Come to think of it, Nawaz Sharif was trying something similar in the name of Islam too.

The fact remains that to date proponents of Islamic ideologies have not come to terms with the norms, ethos, and practices of pluralist democratic politics. Until they come to such terms, for most of the civilised world Islam will remain incompatible with 21st century pluralist democracies. Notwithstanding how loud our screams are about how Islam practically created democracy in the 7th century etc etc.

RE: Bilal# 64

Dear Bilal,

Thanks for your direction. It sounds like an intersting article-would you be able to tell me who publishes this journal. Is there a URL available to access this article on line. I think I am living in the wrong part of this globe.

Best regards

Urstruly #64

Nobody is Nazi Sympathizer. The information that reaches you makes up your mind. Just see the atrocities committed all over the world in the name of democracy and secularism (it does not mean secularism and democracy are bad but it is not democracy and secularism but Capitalist interest).

There is some truth to Hamood-ur-Rehman Commission report even if it is not true report, that I can tell from my personal interaction with many people including Mukti Bahini workers Bengalis and Biharis. You can read the book by Col. Siddiq Salik,``Mein Ne Dhaka Doobte Dekha`` (I think) which is from Pakistani and Islamic perspective and you can get the glimpse of condition of Bengalis at that time.

By a unanimous consensus, the army rule has alienated East Pakistanis. If it was political leadership, they would have reached some understanding. Best would be a kind of confederation between East and West Pakistan, basing on theory that West Pakistan would never accept the rule of East Pakistan when Capital was concentrated in West Pakistan. And rule of Yahya Khan was no better.

As far as Zia-ul-Haque policy on Kashmir, Afghanistan, and Atomic Bomb, strengthening the armed forces, professionalism in armed forces etc it was a continuation of policies of Bhutto. My thinking is if Bhutto was alive, he would have gotten much more benefit for Pakistan at that time and turn Pakistan into an Asian tiger.

But policies of Islamization of Pakistan (or more appropriately Anti-PPP) had left an imprint on Pakistan in the form of Heroine and Klashinkov culture. (I say this because I have never thought MQM, or Nawaz Sharif and co as working for Islamization except to the extent that how much it helps in their personal agenda). The alienation of Sind in his early rule, he later corrected.

It is lesser of the two evil, because there is no political leadership as such. Basically the leadership which is now became leaders because of army. MQM is a product of agencies as much as Nawaz Sharif. Once they stopped working according to the wishes of their mentors, they fell in disgrace. Isn`t it?.

Now all these people in disgrace are joining hands with people who have struggled against Army rule before them. The new generation of leaders on which army is putting their ``Dast-e-Shafqat`` now is probably Tahirul Qadri, Tehrik-e-Insaaf, etc.

Keeping this aside.

I am in favor of local bodies election and power to the people at the local level to solve their problems. Like sewage, education, etc. And to solve their basic problem, they should be given enough power.

Also the devolution plan to provinces is a step in right direction.

If you see it in proper context, you will see that these are not army rule, but democratic institutions. Provided, army is sincere in delivering this and it is given constitutional cover.

Army rule where they can decide the fate of people, no way. Constitutional rights to people. Yes.

According to me in any setup, it is always the ruling elite who make major policy decisions in their interest and not the common man. So constitutional right in constitution is very important for us. Not that Oh Islam already gives all the rights to people. If Islam gives all rights, then make it part of constitution specifically (i.e all the laws and rules), and not in preamble only. So that in any future USE of Islam by ruling elite, the constitutional rights according to Islam can be shown to Rulers and their intentional or unintentional touts.

KabuliWallah # 65

First of all Indian Muslims are Indian.

Second they are Muslims.

As you know very well that many Indians with American Passport and Nationality are Indians and do lobby for Indians because of some affinity and concern.

In the same way, as a Muslim, concern of Muslims also become our concern.i.e if they have a problem.

Half my family still lives in India. Do you think I can break my bond, because they are Indians. There is nothing Indian or Pakistani in our relationship.

And if you think Indians can change the relationship between us by force, it is their folly.

You must have seen the recent example of North and South Korea after 50 years of forced seperation and reaction in their respective countries.

And you will be aware that one thousands years of living together by Hindus and Muslims has not changed that.

If the two states cannot resolve their differences, it is not the fault of people on two sides of border. And although one has to take sides out of compulsion, one should also keep this in mind.

The word Kaffir is used only in the sense of believers in idol.

As an example, when Abraham AS, the prophet took stand against idol worship, their countrymen were very much against it. But when he broke the idols secretly and people suspecting him asked who did it. He said, ask these idols, if they have no power to protect themselves, how can they protect you.

I don`t believe in political Islam as projected by Jamat-e-Islami. For me it should be seen in

nationalistic perspective as a rallying point for common cause as much as Communist, or LTTE or any other movement. In recent years its manifestation is seen in Iran, which was a struggle against American influence and Imperialism. The same can be said in Kashmir.

Whenever there is a friction in a country, it is due to unequal opportunities. Whether it is related to division based on religion, race, color etc. With unequal opportunities comes the justification in the form of rationalizing injustice and labelling by beneficiaries of system.

The only solution to Indian problem (or for that matter any other country) is related to economics. If a state or person or group thinks that his rights are being usurped or will benefit by secession, what keeps him to remain a part of India (or any other country).

The lesson from Pakistan, may be of some relevance, regarding how once hostile Pakhtoon, Baluch and Sindhis had been absorbed to a good extent in the mainstream.

............... I have the final solution.... let`s put krashid and other followers of the demented Qazi Sahib and his wild-eyed Brother-in-Islam, Mullah Omar, into Occupied Kashmir and close the border behind them .....they can chew miswaq and practice vitwani while conducting Jihad against the Infidel, swiftly dispatching Rsaxena, Jay, Narain and other members of the saffron hordes to hell and themselves into the waiting arms of buxom houris in Heaven ......everyone wins except the Indians.

...... there is nothing wrong with being a nationalist and wanting to kick the Indian hiney.. but to cheer on Allah and Ali in the process is nothing short of blasphemy ............ let`s seperate the temporal from the spiritual so that we can be good at least one of them ............. this nonsense about mixing Islam with everything - from setting the rules for personal hygiene to determining the prime lending rate is ridiculous .......... there is nothing more disgusting than a smelly tribesman from Talibanistan, and nothing as outrageous as the interest rate demanded by properly bearded money-lenders in Peshawar ............

In response to Urstruly (Reply #: 64)
Dear Urstruly:
For a brief historical understanding of the social relations of the army establishment in Pakistan, please see Hasan Nasir Gardezi`s ``The Failure of Capitalism in Pakistan`` (Journal of Contemporary Asia, Vol. 28, No. 3, 1998, pp. 310-326. For additional insights, please the writings of Professor Hamza Alavi.
Sincerely, Bilal Ahmad

Oh yes and one more thing, the opinions expressed on Chowk are just that opinions and more often than not, are reactionary. Somebody says something insulting and then somebody else embarks on an `insult till the other guy feels sick` campaign...and the cycle goes on. If one chooses to, he/she, without necessarily being corny, can attempt to break that cycle.