Faith, Religion and National Direction

re: scout#158

Dearest Scout Aunty,

With all due respect, I really don`t buy this ``[my] responses have been in retaliation to a finger pointed at me`` business. I mean, where does it stop? Now, everyday I see the most ignorant and baseless comments made about my country, religion and people on chowk. In a way, these ignorant and baseless comments are directed at me. But I CHOOSE to ignore them. I know they are not true and I CHOOSE not to respond to them. Without taking names, I think these people get a wierd sort of satisfaction in instigating mudslinging bouts between people. These people have a generic hatred built into their system. They say that they really don`t mean it, but oh no, they do mean it and they revel in it.
And please don`t say that Indians instigate and Pakistanis only retaliate. That could be a comforting thought but it ain`t. There are imbecilic morons yahan bhi aur wahan bhi, but again, I CHOOSE not to engage with them. There is a muhavra in my dialect which goes something like this ``If you throw a stone on dung, it jumps onto your face``. When there is an argument, the heat can only be reduced when one party takes responsibility and acts maturely and chooses not to retaliate. Then inevitably the aggressive party cools down. This I found out is the best way to diffuse brawls and such. When somebody makes an insulting comment and the offended party too decides to raise the tempo, then things get out of hand. When people don`t pay any attention to barking dogs, the bitches go away out of sheer frustration. So come on, Scout chachi, me knows and you knows that something has to be done to help our respective peoples and engaging in cyberroom brawls is not the solution. Lets be mature and only pray that people get the message soon.

As for your trip to Delhi, it really ain`t expensive. When you come to Pakistan, all you have to do is get a visa (preferably from the Indian Consulate in New York) for India, jump on the bus in Lahore and lo and behold, within 8 hours or so, you`ll be in Delhi. (The bus ticket is around 20 bucks one way; and I`ve heard the Indian bus has better seats...hehehehe...but the Pakistani bus has better AC :( ) And please don`t insult me by saying that you will have money problems in Delhi. You`ll hardly have reason to spend money here. And hey, since its a Pakistani aunty visiting, I`m sure Delhi wallahs will make concessions. All you need to pull the trip off is a little bit of planning ahead and the will...that`s all. That rest can be arranged in Delhi. Remember, the offer will ALWAYS stand...irrespective.

Kabuli.

In response to Narain (Reply # 160)
Dear Narain:
Your statement: ``For most Indians, secularism is a cornerstone of what being an Indian is all about, much as Islam is a cornerstone of being a Pakistani.``
Comment: The words ``secular`` and ``secularism`` are used differently by different people in India. What brand of secularism do you believe in? For my views about Pakistan (and her ideological basis)in relation to secularism, see my ``Pakistan: A Failed State?``
Sincerely, Bilal Ahmad

Pankaj #140 I can understand your suspicion of religion given the way it has been twisted and misused by power-hungry people and other misfits. Behind this mess, however, are some profound truths and values provided by religion that I dont think change the way you indicate. I presented to you these truths as provided in Islam in my earlier post on the subject. Do you see any problem with them? The challenge of course is in living up to such basic values, not just stating them. Incidentally, I know that all religions, including Hinduism, have a kernal of profound beauty and truth, and one need not ``belong`` to a religion to appreciate this and, where one agrees, to try an live one`s life accordingly.

shammi #131 Thanks for the compliment, which I assume was prompted by my previous post on this subject. Now I suppose I will have to struggle to maintain the high standard you have set for me :-)

Ref: Bahmad #138

``De jure equality is indeed a major achievement (as you have rightly pointed out), but not in countries like India and Pakistan where even access to clean water is not guaranteed to a major part of population (let alone access to legal protection).``

More than De jure equality, what is more impressive is the commitment of civil society in India to the concept of secularism. You may have noticed how prickly Indians on chowk become when Indian secularism is derided. So important is the concept to us that our President, the guardian of our constitution, feels it incumbent upon him to warn us about our collective failings on this front in his independence day speech. For most Indians, secularism is a cornerstone of what being an Indian is all about, much as Islam is a cornerstone of being a Pakistani.

Unfortunately it seems that in Pakistan, atleast till 1971, even civil society did not accept the equality of the minorities. As the Hamdood-ur Rahman commission reports, the army was given explicit instructions to massacre Hindus in erstwhile East Bengal. These could not but have been reflections of the popular mindset in Pakistan, which in the best of times was willing to tolerate the minorities, but expected them to ask for little more than this. I hope (and am sometimes heartened by the responses of chowk interactors) that the situation in Pakistan has improved since then.

-narain

Kabulliwallah #155, ````Don`t point fingers at others, lest the same be done to you`` ``

I agree wholeheartedly, thusfar, all my ``pointed finger`` responses have been in retaliation to a finger pointed at me. I`ve never started anything. My posts which you read were directed at JR #4. You came into the crossfire and started on your own :).

As for a trip to Delhi, it will be a while, since the money that I do have is spent on books, food, rent and other such necessities. And I`d rather not go to papa and beg for more.

Would you like to start collecting some ``chunda``

for the ``scout`s visit to India fund.`` ;)

love

scout aunty

In response to Kubuliwalla (Reply # 155)
Dear Kubuliwalla:
Your statement: ``So lets come to an understanding, that we have our own respective problems. Lets spend our energies in solving them and not wasting time and effort in badmouthing each other. But I wonder what would happen to the chowk readership if we did that. . . .``
Comment: Good advise/suggestion. The readership will mature (I hope!).
Sincerely, Bilal Ahmad

re: Satyavadi#128

I cannot divulge the origin of my nick, but thanks for the support. I loved Tagore`s Kabuliwallah, which I think we read
in VI grade Hindi. We also read Kabuliwallah
in X grade English Honours in the US.

regards,

Kabuli

re: scout#139

Dear Scout Aunty,

Thanks for the quote, if you`ll permit this gustaakh, let me write another one here:

``Don`t point fingers at others, lest the same be done to you``

or some such.

So lets come to an understanding, that we have our own respective problems. Lets spend our energies in solving them and not wasting time and effort in badmouthing each other. But I wonder what would happen to the chowk readership if we did that :)

In any case, my invitation for you to Delhi stands. If God willing, you can make it to India`s capital, email me at veerbhagat@hotmail.com.

love

Kabuli

krashid

post#152

{{Don`t lump the Pakistanis with individual outlook to the herd mentality one liner Indians.}}

Hah! That is the best one liner I`ve seen so far!

You convieniently seem to forget the many disagreements Indians have between themselves on chowk. So get off your pious holier than though high horse.

re: krashid # 146

You said, ``Islamic society will always be divided into many trends as any other society and as there is no concept of Islamic society without compassion of sufis, same way there is no concept of Islamic society without fundamentalist. But majority of Ummah is at middle road...``

So would you say Hindu society will always be divided into many trends as any other society and as there is no concept of Hindu society without compassion of the bhakti saints, same way there is no concept of Hindu society without RSSwallahs. But majority of Hindus follow a middle road...?

Then why do you rant and rave about the BJP and RSS people in your posts
on India so often? Why do you use one yardstick for Pakistan and one for India?

Note, that at no point, have I
supported the BJP or the RSS in this post.


As for your suggestions for improving the position of minorities and all disadvantaged people in India, I thank you for that. I had decided once that I will not comment on Pakistan,as it serves India no immediate purpose and so I’m going to stick to my decision and I’ll try my best to stick to it in future. So forgive me for not responding to your statement that “Bhutto being Sindhi did a lot of work for the upliftment of Sindhis and later Government not only continued this trend but included Pakhtunistan and Baluchistan.”




regards,

Kabuli.

HamidM!

I strogly protest to your remarks.

Don`t lump the Pakistanis with individual outlook to the herd mentality one liner Indians.

We have our brains to use.

Their brain is borrowed.

We can speak our heart.

They speak what is beneficial.

We discuss our problems.

They show there is no problem.

Please don`t degrade us.

Siagalph#

Looks like your country has nothing to affer you.

For me if I can earn half the amount what I am earning here I would go back to my people.

re Krashid

I refer you to Shankar`s post #145 which says it all too well.

As for your continuous argument, what can I say? If you really think that someone is better than America, find that country and prove it so.

That thing about only money drawing people to America is sheer nonsense of the third category. If it was just money most people would migrate to the much richer Bedouin kingdoms in Arabia. My friend, it is freedom, social and economic, which draws the huddled masses to the land of Liberty.

The question shouldn`t be why the US interferes in the internal affairs of other countries. The real question should be why our countries have such barbaric practices that foreigners have to interfere just to save our own lives, honour, and institutions? Take your thinking higher, man. Hope and work for the day when the countries in the subcontinent are so advanced and civilised that we are called upon to ``interfere`` when the US or Europe is destroying its own institutions, killing its own people, or slaughtering its own minorities; and all that with our aid money. Until then, the decent thing will be to work for the betterment of our society rather than criticism of the greatest civilisation humanity has seen yet(no, I am not talking about Pakistan or Bangladesh).

BAhmed #144

Let me read you. page 2 of download.

``After examining 213 witnesses, the Hamoodur-Rehman Commission submitted its special investigative report to the ex-president of Pakistan on July 8, 1972. The Commission reassembled on October 23 1974 in Abbotabad, Pakistan, to prepare a supplementary Report to the main report. Both the main report of July 8, 1972 and the supplementary report of the Hamoodur-Rehman commission were published in the information times on Saturday August 12, 2000.``

If there is a catch I don`t know, but the words are quite clear.

Re: satyvadi # 134

I was merely suggesting that till the full report comes out, nothing will be known! This a first step in the direction, but the journey is not over!

Ciao!