Arguments Against Aryan Invasion Theory

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Sameer j.b. for having read some history books to prove a point is like a messenger clasiming eye witness or worthy evidence that Aryans DIDNOT come from outside as all outsiders like to believe.What motivation do the aryans which your forfathers were even before 1000 yrs ago when muslims poured into India??

THIS IS THE LATEST PROOF OF WHAT YOU READ ARE FALSE.ONLY KAK,RAJARAM,JHA like unorthodox self taught by reading paper back books support there DELUSION THAT THEY WERE IN INDIA FOR 6000 yrs ago MY LEFT FOOT

``find out, RAJARAM,is or was a bank clerk. N.S. Rajaram is a vitriolic Hindu nationalist who claims to have worked for Lockheed in the United States before returning to India, apparently to devote himself full-time to writing Hindu nationalist works.

(Rajaram was recently the subject of embarassing revelations in the magazines Frontline and Outlook -- A Bushy Tail: The Piltdown Horse -- when Michael Witzel, a Harvard professor, and Steve Farmer, a comparative historian, demonstrated that a recent book of Rajaram`s had deliberately falsified evidence to bolster his arguments.)

What Rajaram, Talageri, Sethna (and friends and co-authors of theirs -- people like David Frawley, a New Age herbal healer; Subhash Kak, an electrical engineer; and Georg Feuerstein, author of ``Yoga for Dummies`` -- share in common, is a vitriolic hatred of majority opinions about ancient Indian history in the scholarly community, and a desire to replace it with a completely different view.



The motivation is transparent. They wish to erase the scholarly opinion that the north Indian languages (of which the oldest is the language of the Vedas) came to India as a transplant from the north-west. By doing so, they can then denounce Muslims and Christians as followers of a foreign religion, without







For a political party to support one side of an academic controversy -- and that the one without academic support -- recalls again the bizarre times of the Nazi or Soviet regimes.

having the same charge justifiably levelled back at them ``

Re: the indo-aryan language residue in Hurrian --

according to a Norwegian scholar Bjarte Kaldhol who is writing on the Indology list (URL below), the Hurrians (Mitanni) show little or no trace of archaic Sanskrit in their written records.

Apparently, Nazi-era German scholars who were seeking Aryans in ancient civilizations misread or let their biases carry them away, and saw words of Indo-Aryan etymology where there were none.

While Hurrian scholarship has progressed in the last fifty years, Indology has citing old and out-dated papers.

URL : a representative post follows,but I would suggest reading the whole thread.

http://listserv.liv.ac.uk/cgi-shl/WA.EXE?A2=ind0011&L=indology&D=1&O=D&P=38172

-arun gupta

I thank each and every one of you who read and shared their thoughts on this topic. I hope others learned as much as I did by interacting with very intellegent people. It was meant to provoke rational and objective thinking about distant past....

Regards,

Sameer

Sameer,

You embarrass me by suggesting that I am some kind of an expert. I am certainly not.

I did not view this as a contest in any way. This is a mere exchange of opinions, informed or otherwise.

My relatively sedate life has afforded me the luxury of indulging my passion of reading, especially history. However, it was a mere coincidence that a very dear and old friend of mine who is an archeological researcher and works with the Lahore Museum was generous enough to share some unpublished material with me a couple of years ago. That stuff related to carbon dating of gray painted ware which teams from Japan and the US had been working on and she was intimately involved with.

As for being familiar with germs and all, I squandered the best part of my youth in the futile pursuit of studying medicine. I compounded the folly, years later in America, by doing a graduate degree in epidemiology. Presently, I practice neither medicine nor epidemiology.

…SR

bg: How different the Baluchi and Pushtu languages are since they both belong to Indi-Iranian family of languages. How much Pushtu and average Balochi can understand? For example I probably understand 90+ percent Pothohari, 70+ percent Saraiki, about 10 percent Sindhi and 100 percent Punjabi because they are related languages.

Also, how different Balochi culture is from Pushtu? My understanding was that racially Balochis are much different than Pushtun. Are Balochis kin to Kurdish people? I think MAkranis are of East African extract but are People of Kalat any markedly different from Balochis in race, culture or language.

SR: I have only one question to ask.

How do you know so much about so many disciplines?

Just delighted to read such fascinating responses. It appears that my position is weakened against such a detailed case for infections, epidemics and viruses. Using Sun Tzu principle in ``Art of War`` it better to walk away than keep fighting. My previous response was right out of Jared Diamond`s Pulitzer Prize winning book, ``Guns, Germs and Steel``. But Syed`s Avenue is still open.

Urstruly: Intersting expansion in a series. How about Sahabs (friends). Shouldn`t same be applicable to Siddiqui, Farooqui, Usmani and Alvi. I am ready to bet a dollar, there are more Siddiquis than Farooquis or Usmanis.

Think about Jews. After losing 10 tribes, remaining two in 2600 years have produced 17-18 million people. I do not know when some Jews arrived in India but there were only 55000 when they left for Israel in 1948. How about Australian Aboriginies. They are known to be stranded in Australia for much more than 70 generations, yet when British came, they were less than a milliion. Somehow that expansion of series does not include a person with no children or with daughters only particularly in the earlier generations. Here is a question for you. Guess what was the most common last name in the last National Assembly of Pakistan? I rememnber going over the list of 212 members and counting last names. No.1 ---(26-27), No.2 Khan( 14-15).

Well why create a suspense. It was Shah. Couple of them from NWFP, about 8-10 from Punjab and remaining from Sindh.

fairdinkun: I look forward to your reply before it is pushed back to previous page. I have posted a response at Argument for.....I suppose I can never use that article as appendix to my matrimonial ad in India Abroad. Here is another intersting story. Once few of my friends were going out with Syed girls. only one of them ended up in marring. Rest created an association called, ``Anjuman Mut`assareen-e-Mussammat-e-Fiqah Jafria``.

RE: SR# 62

For some reason the system does not post the formula. So I will re-type it in words

Hi SR,
I was finally able to restore my ``Yaadasht`` after a good night sleep. Now I came up with a formula that can find an nth number in that series. The formula is as below:

number of individuals in nth generation

(3)powered by(n-1)
where n=1 to infinity.

I used my calculator to find the number of individuals in 70th generation and the resultant was

(8.34)multiplied by(10)powered 32

assuming every male has three male offsprings; and if every male has 2 male offspring the number becomes:

(5.9)multiplied by(10)powered 20

Even the half of this number exceeds the current world population. Still one shoud keep in mind that the above number is not the sum of whole series, it is just the 70th entry. In other words we are assuming that older generation dies right away when a younger generation is born.

I think now we can easily put our mortality rate, sterility rate, disease, famine, polygamy along with other variations and still be comfortable with the number of Saadaat in the world. How is that?

RE: SR# 62

Hi SR,
I was finally able to restore my ``Yaadasht`` after a good night sleep. Now I came up with a formula that can find an nth number in that series. The formula is as below:

number of individuals in nth generation

=(3)

RE: SR# 62

Hi SR,
I was finally able to restore my ``Yaadasht`` after a good night sleep. Now I came up with a formula that can find an nth number in that series. The formula is as below:

number of individuals in nth generation

=(3)

Urstruly, bg, Sameer, and SR,

Let me do some more research...i`ll ask my elders about a few things to get some of the facts straight. I`ll write a detailed post to settle this matter... In the mean time, don`t you guys say nothin about Syeds alright!? :)

Sameer, I anxiously await your response on Rohan`s article.

Cheers,
Fairdinkum

Urstruly,

Your mathametical induction model is very interesting and if one were to take it literally, we’d have Sayeds growing under every rock by 70 generations. Darwin once did some similar calculations are realized that if only one paramecium (a single cell creature like the amoeba) continued to grow and multiply, as it did once ever 24 hours, in five years it would become a heap of living mass of cell ten time the size of the Earth. Clearly, he figured, that was impossible in reality.

When one is simply dealing with abstract numbers, they can grow infinitely. But in biological beings one has to consider the effect of mortality, especially in the earlier generations.

:))

...SR

Sameer : [“…it was the domestication of animals … cereal grasses and sharing the same water resources with domesticated animals--the agrarian society--which developed immunity to the domesticated animals and plants born viruses. Any nomadic tribes coming in contact with agrarian and settled people will be more vulnerable than other way around.

That is exactly what happened in Americas where agrarian Europeans … came in contact with the nomadic cultures of native

Eurasia is a single land mass. The animals and plant carrying viruses were transferable through diffusion, rodent and animals seasonal migrations …a particular malignant virus does not have to depend upon exclusively on human migration …

The black death in Europe or Plagues in India were more of a local phenomenoa, benign viruses mutating to malignant ones and mutations lasting for a period not sufficient to effect all over Eurasia…”]


At times looking back through the mist of centuries is almost as hazardous a speculative pursuit as gazing into the crystal ball for a glimpse of the future. In both instances we are dependent on our imaginative intuituon. The vast nothingness of which we do not know can only be guessed at in the light of the little that we do know.

What I quote you as writing above is indeed the truth. However, there is some more to it as will attempt to explain in a minute.

But first let me say that I am not insistent upon the plague hypothesis. It is merely a plausible model that can explain some puzzling questions. Future advances in DNA technology will shore up the discipline of paleomicrobiology to where some day we may know the answer. Until them it has to be mere conjecture.

As a general rule pathogenic microorganisms (be they viruses, bacilli, mycobacteria, cocci, fungi or protozoa) are more often species specific than they are not (meaning that if they infect species A, they are harless to species B, C, D etc.) There is, indeed, considerable incidence of cross-species infection, but that is by far and away the exception rather than the rule. Over time some microbes do evolve enough to cross the species’ barrier and successfully invade new host species, but that takes special triggering events and promoting factors (HIV, many believe, has reached humans this way). One specie’s commensal (a harmless passanger) can be another specie’s killer plague bug and vice versa. .

Furthermore, when a new pathogen encounters a fresh population set of its preferred species, the early waves of the epidemic claim the greatest toll from that population. Eventually, the surviving segment of the population begins to develop a progressively better immune response. Ultimately, it comes down to a percentage of the remaining population that is immune and another segment that is vulnerable. One person’s commensal (a harmless passanger) can be another person’s killer bug (example: Typhoid Mary).

Whereas the Native American population was hit hard with the smallpox virus and the tuberculosis germ, the gift that the Europeans brought back home was Syphilis. The spirochete played havoc with the Europeans until penicillin came along in the early 20th century. Neither prince nor pauper was safe. King Henry the Eighth, for example, died of it and a strong case can be made that Abe Lincoln suffered the effects of the congenital form (acquired from the mother’s womb). The Native American’s, of course, were not nearly as affected by their ubiquitous friend, the spirochete.

Now let us suppose for a moment that the nomadic Central Asians carried a pathogen that spread through droplet infection (like the common cold, or pneumonic plague) as opposed to intimate contact (like the HIV) or flea bite (like bubonic plague). Suppose also that the organism was not lethal but, like mumps virus in adults, merely caused infertility (and thus drastically cut down population over generations). That would have been just enough to tip the balance without anyone ever noticing that something was even wrong.

My attraction to this pestulance hypothesis is that it fits the existing facts somewhat better then eather war or famine.

...SR

RE: Sameer, Fairdinkum, bd

I have been following your discussion about the present number of Syeds in the world. Although your assertions are assumptive in nature yet the logic that you follow is quite mind boggling. As a matter of fact your logic defies the basic principles of the Mathematical Induction. The Mathematical Induction is a branch of Mathematics that deals in the study of mathematical series of numbers e.g the series 2,4,6,8,….is a series of even numbers whereas 1,3,5,7….. is a series of odd numbers. Some series are simple while others are complex where each successive number in a series is obtained by a complex formula. The principles of Mathematical Induction enable us to device a formula through which an nth number in a series can be found. I think we can estimate the number of individuals in a particular generation by the following series:

1, (3X1), (3X3), (3X9), (3X27), (3X81),………….

It is quite obvious that any number of this series can be obtained by multiplying a previous number by 3. The following assumptions were made while setting up this series:

1. The first number in the series i.e. 1 is one son of Hazrat Zain-ul-Abidin. For the sake of argument we are assuming that he had only one son.

2. It is assumed that each male individual of the family bears 3 male offspring. Hence the second generation consists of 3 males (i.e represented by number 3 which is second link in the series). Each male from the 2nd generation bears three male offspring again. So the third generation consists of 9 male individuals and so on and so forth.

3. Let us assume that there are five generations in a century. It means that there are 70 generations in 1400 years.

Based on these assumptions the 70th entry in this series will represent approximately the present number of male Syeds. A 12-grader can easily setup a formula by analyzing the above series. My mathematics is very rusty since I haven’t used Mathematical Induction for a while. But with a little hard work one can easily find the 70th number in this series; and believe me it is a very large number. Now assume that at a particular point in time three generations co-exist, which is a reasonable assumption, the number reaches in millions. So far we have not considered the female members of the Syed family.

We have also not assumed other variations. For example, Awans trace back their origin to Hazrat Ali claiming that they are the offspring of a slave, not Hazrat Fatima. I know that Awans do not claim to be Syeds but that was just an example. There are other Syeds who trace their origins back to Ehl-e-bait with such relationships. Unfortunately, I can not recall a particular family at this moment.

So the number of Syeds in sub-continent is thus justified by this logic. What do you think?

re: sameer

yes, you are absolutely right, it seems close to impossible that mohammad could have produced such a huge ``awlaad``.

my response to your statement about asif zardari was tangential. i agree that his being a syed is unlikely. i was also voicing my frustration over north indian cultural hegemony. many times when indians say to me that pakistani and indian is the same thing, i point out to them that they are thinking i am like them, not that they are like me as they dont know the first thing about my hometown in pakistan. many have not heard of balochistan! anyway,...my point was only to highlight the similarity of balochistan and pakhtookhwa to iranian and arab culture relative to the rest of south asia. not because i think that arab or iranian culture is superior as it is ``islamic``, but just because its been my experience.

though iranian influence and similarity in balochistan is evident, i believe that there is a significant arab cultural and racial influence too, esp afro-arab. makrani music is powerful evidence for cultural influence. i sense the racial influence just by physical similarities between arabs and some balochs. but, in order for there to be scientific proof, we`d have to do those dna tests.

hey, why dont we do a huge fundraising campaign and put some of these claims and theories to the DNA test?

till then.

regards

Fairdinkum: Thanks for a very nice, appropriate and enlightening response about Syeds of Sindh. See, we can discuss so many topics other than I/P, I/H and K. Both you and bg have brought up issue with relation to Sindh and Balochistan. It would be of great interest to everybody to hear more about Sindh/ Sindhis, Balochistan/ Balochis and NWFP/ Pathans issues.

I am surprised to find out from your post that some Arabs came to Sindh prior to M. B. Qasim’s invasion and that Raja Dahar was not all that bad. In the light of above statement, do you think, as I do, that the justification of M. B. Qasim’s invasion was cooked up after the invasion? In all likelihood, the event of stopping a passenger boat carrying Arab women never took place. Please note laso that Arabs migrating to Sindh before or after M. B. Qasim is different than migration of Syeds. I will come back to this issue in my response to bg.

I take great interest in dissecting every issue in some crazy scientific ways. The purpose of such exercise is to get to the bottom of it. In practical life, everything is not science alone. I may know the exact ingredients of kebabs, but such information does not make it taste better for me than for others not knowing or caring about the taste. Such are the social and religious issues. The surnames, identities, ethnicities and cultures do help us get through life. They are fascinating and enjoyable irrespective of their origins in reality or myths. Unlike most Pakistanis, I am actually not against myths and mythology either. Myths and Mythology exhibit great power in many human societies. If this power is used in the right way, then all power to it.

What you have described about the habits of Syeds of Sindhs is not a problem of feudalism by Sindhi waderas as well as Punjabi zamindars and not restricted to Syeds alone. The marrying of girls to Quran, or prefering to not marrying them at all is pathetic. Syed No. 1 married all his daughters, then why Syed No. 50 chooses not to do it. The changes in such absurd behavior have to come from within the society; imposition from the top will not work. It is people like yourself who can make the difference by rebeling such inhumane behavior against the girls and other weaker members of the society.

Back to my favorite analysis through dissection. Let us see, Muhammad died in 623 AD, Karbala event took plave in 680 AD and M. B. Qasim attacked Sindh in 711 AD. As far as I know, Muhammad had two grandchildres, Hassan and Hussain. I am not sure how many male children, Hassan had and how many of them lost their lives in Karbala. My understanding is that 57 years after Muhammad’s death, he was left with one great grandchild Zain-Ul-Abidin in 680 AD. When M. B. Qasim attacked Sindh in 711 AD, it was still the time of Shia Imam Zain-Ul-Abidin who died in 714 AD. Here lies my question: how many children Zain-Ul-Abidin could father in 31 years (680-711) and how many grandchildren? The whole world wide supply of Syeds at the time of M. B. Qasim’s attack on Sindh can not be more than 100. There is essentially no chance for any of these less than 100 people deciding to settle in Sindh before M. B. Qasim. Similarly it is not possible to have any of those 100 people in M. B. Qasim’s Army because M. B. Qasim was Ummayid who have uneasy relationship with the descendent’s of Ali. You will be much better off looking for Syeds arrival much later.

bg: Thanks for your response from Pakhtuns and Balochis perspective. I ceratinly hope to see more of your posts on any number of issues. I believe that persian influence in the western Sub-Continent is undeniable. They ruled this part of the Sub-Continent during 6th century BC and later indirectly through Greek Bactrian and Selucid empires for sometime. Moreover, most of us know and acknowledge the Indo-Iranian origins of Pushtu and Balochi languages. I think the problem is lack of attention by mostly Punjabi/ Mohajir crowd who make up most of the immigrant population of USA and Canada, of Pakistani origin, and same hold true about the Pakistani chowkwallas. It is difficult to get involved in serious discussion without being well informed and we know much less about “others” than ourselves. It should be people like you participaing leading to discussions about the topics of your interests.

Unlike Persian influence all the way down to Bahadur Shah Zafar, the Arabic influence markedly decreased after Mahmud Ghaznavi’s invasions. The question really is not about Arabs, it is about Syeds. Just like Aryan, Arabic is a term for culture and not a race, though Arabic as race from Saudi Arabia, Gulf States, Kuwait, Jordan and some Iraqis are racially Arabs also. Among 200+ million Arabs, Arabic by race account for 30-40 million. There must be people coming to Balochistan or Sindh from many of these culturally Arab groups as well as racially arabs.

During Muhammad’s time, Mecca population is estimated to be 50-70 thousand people and Medina about 30-40 thousands. There were many other settlements in the sparcely populated Arabia in addition to nomadic Bedoin tribes. Now all these people have multiplied to 30-40 million people in 1400 years. How come just a single person from them ends up to be the fore-father of 10+ million Syeds ( you must include all claimants, including Alavis, Rizvis, Kazmis, Naqvis, Zaidis, and Syeds) spread from Turkey, Iran, Central Asia, Afghanistan, Pakistan, India and Bangladesh in addition to the royal families of Jordan, S. Arabia and Morocco? There have to be other pathways available to become Syed other than the blood descendants.

This is exactly my interest: to find out some reasonable justification to a very large number of Syeds. There is absolutely no reason to suggest--to a Syed or to someone carrying any other surname--to drop it or to ridicule it as a myth or to discriminate on the surname bases.