Arguments Against Aryan Invasion Theory

Fairdinkum: Thanks for a very nice, appropriate and enlightening response about Syeds of Sindh. See, we can discuss so many topics other than I/P, I/H and K. Both you and bg have brought up issue with relation to Sindh and Balochistan. It would be of great interest to everybody to hear more about Sindh/ Sindhis, Balochistan/ Balochis and NWFP/ Pathans issues.

I am surprised to find out from your post that some Arabs came to Sindh prior to M. B. Qasim’s invasion and that Raja Dahar was not all that bad. In the light of above statement, do you think, as I do, that the justification of M. B. Qasim’s invasion was cooked up after the invasion? In all likelihood, the event of stopping a passenger boat carrying Arab women never took place. Please note laso that Arabs migrating to Sindh before or after M. B. Qasim is different than migration of Syeds. I will come back to this issue in my response to bg.

I take great interest in dissecting every issue in some crazy scientific ways. The purpose of such exercise is to get to the bottom of it. In practical life, everything is not science alone. I may know the exact ingredients of kebabs, but such information does not make it taste better for me than for others not knowing or caring about the taste. Such are the social and religious issues. The surnames, identities, ethnicities and cultures do help us get through life. They are fascinating and enjoyable irrespective of their origins in reality or myths. Unlike most Pakistanis, I am actually not against myths and mythology either. Myths and Mythology exhibit great power in many human societies. If this power is used in the right way, then all power to it.

What you have described about the habits of Syeds of Sindhs is not a problem of feudalism by Sindhi waderas as well as Punjabi zamindars and not restricted to Syeds alone. The marrying of girls to Quran, or prefering to not marrying them at all is pathetic. Syed No. 1 married all his daughters, then why Syed No. 50 chooses not to do it. The changes in such absurd behavior have to come from within the society; imposition from the top will not work. It is people like yourself who can make the difference by rebeling such inhumane behavior against the girls and other weaker members of the society.

Back to my favorite analysis through dissection. Let us see, Muhammad died in 623 AD, Karbala event took plave in 680 AD and M. B. Qasim attacked Sindh in 711 AD. As far as I know, Muhammad had two grandchildres, Hassan and Hussain. I am not sure how many male children, Hassan had and how many of them lost their lives in Karbala. My understanding is that 57 years after Muhammad’s death, he was left with one great grandchild Zain-Ul-Abidin in 680 AD. When M. B. Qasim attacked Sindh in 711 AD, it was still the time of Shia Imam Zain-Ul-Abidin who died in 714 AD. Here lies my question: how many children Zain-Ul-Abidin could father in 31 years (680-711) and how many grandchildren? The whole world wide supply of Syeds at the time of M. B. Qasim’s attack on Sindh can not be more than 100. There is essentially no chance for any of these less than 100 people deciding to settle in Sindh before M. B. Qasim. Similarly it is not possible to have any of those 100 people in M. B. Qasim’s Army because M. B. Qasim was Ummayid who have uneasy relationship with the descendent’s of Ali. You will be much better off looking for Syeds arrival much later.

bg: Thanks for your response from Pakhtuns and Balochis perspective. I ceratinly hope to see more of your posts on any number of issues. I believe that persian influence in the western Sub-Continent is undeniable. They ruled this part of the Sub-Continent during 6th century BC and later indirectly through Greek Bactrian and Selucid empires for sometime. Moreover, most of us know and acknowledge the Indo-Iranian origins of Pushtu and Balochi languages. I think the problem is lack of attention by mostly Punjabi/ Mohajir crowd who make up most of the immigrant population of USA and Canada, of Pakistani origin, and same hold true about the Pakistani chowkwallas. It is difficult to get involved in serious discussion without being well informed and we know much less about “others” than ourselves. It should be people like you participaing leading to discussions about the topics of your interests.

Unlike Persian influence all the way down to Bahadur Shah Zafar, the Arabic influence markedly decreased after Mahmud Ghaznavi’s invasions. The question really is not about Arabs, it is about Syeds. Just like Aryan, Arabic is a term for culture and not a race, though Arabic as race from Saudi Arabia, Gulf States, Kuwait, Jordan and some Iraqis are racially Arabs also. Among 200+ million Arabs, Arabic by race account for 30-40 million. There must be people coming to Balochistan or Sindh from many of these culturally Arab groups as well as racially arabs.

During Muhammad’s time, Mecca population is estimated to be 50-70 thousand people and Medina about 30-40 thousands. There were many other settlements in the sparcely populated Arabia in addition to nomadic Bedoin tribes. Now all these people have multiplied to 30-40 million people in 1400 years. How come just a single person from them ends up to be the fore-father of 10+ million Syeds ( you must include all claimants, including Alavis, Rizvis, Kazmis, Naqvis, Zaidis, and Syeds) spread from Turkey, Iran, Central Asia, Afghanistan, Pakistan, India and Bangladesh in addition to the royal families of Jordan, S. Arabia and Morocco? There have to be other pathways available to become Syed other than the blood descendants.

This is exactly my interest: to find out some reasonable justification to a very large number of Syeds. There is absolutely no reason to suggest--to a Syed or to someone carrying any other surname--to drop it or to ridicule it as a myth or to discrimnate on the surname bases.

Scout #54

Iranians as you know are very apt at putting prename and surnames.

Like Haj for Haji. Whoever went to Karbala is Kla (probably Karbalai) and whoever has seen Imam Raza Mosoleum is Mush (probably Mushhadi).

Tababtabai, Like Allama Tabatabai are more revered because of both lineages tracing back to Prophet PBUH. Syeds can be from one lineage.

At least that is my understanding.

Any way as a Muslim I believe in last sermon of prophet ``There is no superiority of Arab over non-Arab, nor is white superior to black. Superior among you is one who is more pious.

Urstruly,
I am afraid she is :)

Scout,
One can read Quran as a book (not as a religious) and still find it quite interesting and beneficial in many ways ... Why can`t I use Quran to elaborate my point? It`s just another book brilliantly written and uses ancient history very persuasively to draw lessons for present and future.

And I don’t know whether you are religious or not, but your insistence on irrelevancy of ancient history to all South Asians is nothing short of proclamation of Prophet hood of a new religion which does not believe in ancient history :)

Sameer #41

Sameer,

I am greatly offended by your post and I will never forgive you for what you have written about my ancestors :) - Just kidding! Thanks for your interesting post. I quite enjoyed it.
I concur with you that earliest preachers of Islam in Sind were mostly Shia Muslims and probably a lot of them were Syeds (though somewhat diluted in their genetic makeup as you suggest) who arrived in Sind as refugees avoiding persecution in Arabia. It is well known that Raja Dahir was a kind and just ruler who provided protection/shelter to many such refuges and despite several requests/threats from authorities in Arabia he refused to hand them over. What happened once these migrants settled down in Sind and made it their home and started interacting with local people, in relation to inter-marriages of Syed men with local women (and Syed women with local men), and the rest (including what you suggest in your post) is anybody’s guess. Your view is logically understandable to a large extent. In addition to your arguments, it is quite interesting that not many of them (Syeds) are able to prove their lineage to Mohammad by way of genealogy either. I have been interested in this for quite sometime now and have asked several of the Syeds about their family tree and how they trace their roots to Mohammad. It is usually a mind-boggling detour, which eventually connects them to one of the children of Fatima and Ali.

Syeds of present-day Sind usually do not prefer to marry into non-Syeds – especially their women are not allowed to marry a non-Syed. I know for fact that several of my relatives prefer to keep their daughters at home (marrying a woman to Quran is still not too un-common a practice) rather than let them marry into non-Syeds. Even a Syed who is of less status in the society or less wealthy than them is, sometimes, not good enough. This practice on the surface seems to be an effort to preserve their genetic inheritance, but in my view, this is largely due to the fear of losing land/property/wealth to outsiders rather than anything else.

As for Asif Zardari, well, I agree with bg … he is nothing more than a scumbag – and (like bg) I don’t see why a Baloch cannot be a Syed? Balochistan has a border with Iran. One of the Imams of Shia Muslims (Imam Ali Raza, a true descendent of Mohammad) migrated to Iran (again to avoid persecution in Arabia) and settled down in Mashhad. His shrine is the holiest place for Irani Shia Muslims. It is highly likely that some of his decedents later moved to areas, which are now called Balochistan. However, I doubt that Asif Zardir’s family is from one of them :) I concur with your statement that “It is impossible to separate the “true” Syeds from “acquired” , “adopted” or “phony” Syeds.” Unless we go down the path of DNA testing as suggested by gymnosophist (thanks for your post gynmo – I largely agree with your view).

Whether or not we are able to separate true Syed from a phony Syed, the fact is that we have this elite class in Sind who call themselves ‘Syeds’ (they usually use Shah as their surname). My interest in this matter is not because of any religious or racial inclinations, but due to my absolute abhorrence to continued exploitation of poor Sindhis by these so-called ‘Syeds’ or ‘Shahs’. I totally understand why Sindhis gave so much respect to Syeds in the distant past. It was probably because of the character, integrity, and most of all knowledge and wisdom of people like Shah Abdul Latif, but present-day Syeds of Sind do not deserve this treatment. They have proven themselves to be unworthy of such respect. They’ve subverted and caused a lot of pain and suffering to poor Sindhis who provided protection and greeted them with immense hospitality. It is not the poor Sindhi who is to be blamed for creating this unacceptable situation of exploitation by Syeds – they only respected (and still do respect) Syeds for what Mohammad did for mankind. It is the Syeds who are to be blamed for their greed and lust for power.

Regards,
Fairdinkum

krashid #50,

So there are different classes of Syeds depending on where you`re from?

Sohail (SR): Thanks a lot for a very nicely put detailed article about this subject, the best response thus far, in my opinion. Obviously you are well informed and very knowledgeable. I would have gladly exchanged your post with my piece except for the last part about immunity and epidemics.

My understanding, reading from various sources, is that prolong association with animals, plants and contaminated water resources had been the major reason of developing immunity. To put it simply, it was the domestication of animals, domestication of cereal grasses and sharing the same water resources with domesticated animals--the agrarian society--which developed immunity to the domesticated animals and plants born viruses. Any nomadic tribes coming in contact with agrarian and settled people will be more vulnerable than other way around. That is exactly what happened in Americas where agrarian Europeans carrying smallpox and dysentary viruses but immune to them, came in contact with the nomadic cultures of native Indians who have no immunity to these viruses, leading to the biggest disater in human history.

Unlike Americas and Europe distant apart by Atlantic ocean, Eurasia is a single land mass. The animals and plant carrying viruses were transferable through diffusion, rodent and animals seasonal migrations and natural phenomenon of winds disributing the viruses carrying seeds to a greater distances. What it means is that a particular malignant virus does not have to depend upon exclusively on human migration as it was the case betweem Americas and Europe. That is why there is no specific record of large scale epidemics in Eurasia resulting from migration of people. The black death in Europe or Plagues in India were more of a local phenomenoa, benign viruses mutating to malignant ones and mutations lasting for a period not sufficient to effect all over Eurasia.

There is certainly some probability of what you are suggesting but much greater probability of agrarian Indian decimating the migrating nomadic central asians by infecting them with domesticated animals and cereal born viruses. [Even believing in Aryan Invasion and turning natives into Shudra, relegating them to menial work and taking care of dead organic matter clearly indicate the natives greater immunity to dirtier and unhealthy environment. Shudras could not have survived the filthy environment, if they had less immunity to some ``Aryan`` viruses.]

There is absolutely no argument about rest of your post. Just fantastic!!!

regards,

Sameer

Scout: I am glad that I did not offend you by writing a post about Syeds. Actually same will be true of any other surname if looked back to 50 generations. At the same time if an identity based on truth or mythology helps to bring the best out of a person, then it is good. When it is used to downgrade others, it is bad. I must admit though, for majority, it is irrelevent issue.

Dost-Mitter: Different areas in India have different traditions and same is true among Muslims. There are Syeds in Bangladesh but not as many as in UP, Behar and Pakistan. Syed surname is not used among Arabs although powerful families like Moroccan, Saudi and Jordanian royal families trace their origins back to Muhammad and use it as part of their justification to be hereditary leaders of their subjects. There was a famous Syed from Hyderabad (AP) in Pakistan, named Maulana Maudoodi, founder of Jamaat-e-Islami. There are certain myths in some of the rural areas of NWFP, Punjab and Sindh about Syeds but in urban centers, generally they niether demand nor get any special treatment. BTW, your couple of posts about Khatris were very interesting and informative. Thanks.

bd: You have made a good point about river Saraswati possibly blocking upstream as a result of major catastrophic event. It will be interesting to find some large dry lake bed along the supposed path of the river in Kashmir, HP or northern UP.

Ilove money: Most of the information about old Indian history comes mainly from archaeology and Vedas. Unfortunately, the people of Indus valley did not leave behind great deal of written material. Moreover, what written material is available has not been ciphered yet. There were several seals excavated from Harappa and Mohenjo-daro; some depicting sun worship, naga worship and a priest sitting in standard yoga position. The pictures of these seals are widely available in a number of books and might be available at www.harappa.com also. Archaeologists have developed some very ingenious methodologies to extract large amount of information from various kinds of remains found at these sites. Please read SR’s post which gives great deal more information on the lives and times of Indus valley people.

I wonder if your other post was meant to be here or at “1971 in 2000” board. A lot of Paksitanis and Indians would have happily responded to it. Yet it is undeniable that human do not learn from historical as well as “non-historical” mistakes and keep repeating them.

interesting and well researched article, sameer. as SR says, somehow the idea of indoeuropean speakers has become synonymous with ``race``. and a hypothesis has assumed the status of history. the questions you raise help our much needed re-educaiton.

re your post #41
``It is surprising to see a person like Asif Zardari can simultaneously claim himself as a Baloch and a Syed.``

actually, i dont know if asif zardari can claim to be anything other than a sleaze-bag, but...

...why do you assume that baloch and syed are mutually exclusive (as you imply)?

though ``indigenous`` balochs are believed to be the fast disappearing gypsy shepards, present day balochistan is probably as diverse, if not more, as any other part of the sub-continent. in quetta alone, you will find the east asian looking, darri speaking ``hazaras``; the balochi speaking african-looking makranis; the green-eyed, light haired, pushto speaking pathans; the brahvi speaking, semitic looking ``kurds`` (there are brahvi-speaking families who go by the last name kurd, which is not as prestigious as syed, so more likely not to be a fiction and the ethnic diversity i have enumerated predates the afghan war).

balochi music, food and general culture has a great deal in common with semitic/arab, persian and afghan culture. in fact, many balochs are believed to be semitic. so, though i cannot speak for asif zardari, i think it is not entirely impossible for some balochs to have semitic roots. how many of them are ``syeds``, is of course, another matter.

i agree that most pakistanis ignore their south-asianness and identify as arab/persian/central asian. but, when we make fun of those claiming to be ``syeds``, we run the risk of throwing the baby out with the bath-water.

there is clearly a great deal of arab/central asian cutlure and blood floating around in western south asia, esp balochistan and pakhtoonkhwa. in fact, parts of pakhtoonkhwa and balochistan should strictly be considered central/western asia based on language and cultural similarities. you cannot convince a pakistani pathan that s/he has more in common with a tamil from madras than the guy across the border in afghanistan.

i think many times discussions on our history and racial/ethnic origins tend to only consider the perdominant groups in pakistan -- the punjabis, and to some extent, sindhis and those whose ancestors migrated from what is now india. it is presumed that if the punjabis, north indian muslims and sindhis are making false claims to arab/central asian descent, then that is true for ALL south asian muslims. and that is clearly inaccurate.

scout #44

I think in Iran if one of your family member is Syed, they are called Sayyed. If the lineage is all along Syed they are called Tabatabai.

RE: SameerJB #43

Maluk Saib wut maza taN nah aya naN. Koi GideR singhi kado, koi phultro sunghao jatki aaN wadday ilmaN Walayo. Zaat ni Korh Kirli tay japhay maray shehteeraN nooN, Hain Maluk Saib?

I think the Sayedaat that you mentioned sing in Pahari which is more of South Eastern kashmiri-Lala Atta Ullah Khan Isa Khailawi is more like it.

Re: Humsab #7

Can you give me one example where people have actually learned from history. They keep on making the same mistakes again however much they have read about the past.

Why not invent imaginary utopias. It gives us something to strive towards instead of just feeling that it is alright to go to war etc. because people have always done so.

Sameer

Some intresting arguments, but I don`t see any of the proof you promise. e.g. when you say that Harrapan people practised yoga, how do you know?

If statues of people in yogic positions or something have been found, you should have said so, it would make the article much more convincing.

satish # 32, sameer jb #35

Gentlemen, there can be a relatively simple explanation for the saraswati (1) changing course drastically (2) drying up dramatically. As you very well know, most of the headwaters of these rivers arise in the mountains and that area is a major tectonic activity area. Natural Dams are formed quite easily and they do burst easily as well, that can have a catastrophic flood downstream and post flood, the river course can be dramatically different, specially if it happens upstream. A case in point is the recent flood in Arunachal Pradesh, which has been blamed on a natural dam giving way in the Tibetan region rather than rain-runoff.

Sincerely

bd

SameerJB #41,

Wow. Great post.

My mother`s family are ``Syeds`` dating back from Iran. But I never bought the idea of being related to the Prophet and showing it off like that. She doesn`t either.

When my ``Syed`` paternal grandfather married my mother off to a Punjabi, he suffered admonishment from his brothers, for marring the ``Syeds only marrying Syeds`` tradition. Just goes to show, how people use a mere title to justify their superficial ``I`m better than you,`` ideas.

scout

Urstruly: eh tusaN ki teera jatok honha te banda nibbarh lena per banda is kee keh aakhey--bunh accho?

How is my Pothoari? Love to listen to Malika Pukhraj/ Tahira Syed paharhi folk songs!!!

Brother t: Thanks for coming out to support me even though I owe you one too many apologies for failing to respond on personal level. t, it has been my weakness throughout to have difficluty in saying no to the people I have immense regard. My schedule did not provide me a window of opportunity to commit myself. I sincerely hope for forgiveness. By the way, how did it go?

Regards,

Sameer