Arguments Against Aryan Invasion Theory

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Sameer j.b. for having read some history books to prove a point is like a messenger clasiming eye witness or worthy evidence that Aryans DIDNOT come from outside as all outsiders like to believe.What motivation do the aryans which your forfathers were even before 1000 yrs ago when muslims poured into India??

THIS IS THE LATEST PROOF OF WHAT YOU READ ARE FALSE.ONLY KAK,RAJARAM,JHA like unorthodox self taught by reading paper back books support there DELUSION THAT THEY WERE IN INDIA FOR 6000 yrs ago MY LEFT FOOT

``find out, RAJARAM,is or was a bank clerk. N.S. Rajaram is a vitriolic Hindu nationalist who claims to have worked for Lockheed in the United States before returning to India, apparently to devote himself full-time to writing Hindu nationalist works.

(Rajaram was recently the subject of embarassing revelations in the magazines Frontline and Outlook -- A Bushy Tail: The Piltdown Horse -- when Michael Witzel, a Harvard professor, and Steve Farmer, a comparative historian, demonstrated that a recent book of Rajaram`s had deliberately falsified evidence to bolster his arguments.)

What Rajaram, Talageri, Sethna (and friends and co-authors of theirs -- people like David Frawley, a New Age herbal healer; Subhash Kak, an electrical engineer; and Georg Feuerstein, author of ``Yoga for Dummies`` -- share in common, is a vitriolic hatred of majority opinions about ancient Indian history in the scholarly community, and a desire to replace it with a completely different view.



The motivation is transparent. They wish to erase the scholarly opinion that the north Indian languages (of which the oldest is the language of the Vedas) came to India as a transplant from the north-west. By doing so, they can then denounce Muslims and Christians as followers of a foreign religion, without







For a political party to support one side of an academic controversy -- and that the one without academic support -- recalls again the bizarre times of the Nazi or Soviet regimes.

having the same charge justifiably levelled back at them ``

Re: the indo-aryan language residue in Hurrian --

according to a Norwegian scholar Bjarte Kaldhol who is writing on the Indology list (URL below), the Hurrians (Mitanni) show little or no trace of archaic Sanskrit in their written records.

Apparently, Nazi-era German scholars who were seeking Aryans in ancient civilizations misread or let their biases carry them away, and saw words of Indo-Aryan etymology where there were none.

While Hurrian scholarship has progressed in the last fifty years, Indology has citing old and out-dated papers.

URL : a representative post follows,but I would suggest reading the whole thread.

http://listserv.liv.ac.uk/cgi-shl/WA.EXE?A2=ind0011&L=indology&D=1&O=D&P=38172

-arun gupta

I thank each and every one of you who read and shared their thoughts on this topic. I hope others learned as much as I did by interacting with very intellegent people. It was meant to provoke rational and objective thinking about distant past....

Regards,

Sameer

Sameer,

You embarrass me by suggesting that I am some kind of an expert. I am certainly not.

I did not view this as a contest in any way. This is a mere exchange of opinions, informed or otherwise.

My relatively sedate life has afforded me the luxury of indulging my passion of reading, especially history. However, it was a mere coincidence that a very dear and old friend of mine who is an archeological researcher and works with the Lahore Museum was generous enough to share some unpublished material with me a couple of years ago. That stuff related to carbon dating of gray painted ware which teams from Japan and the US had been working on and she was intimately involved with.

As for being familiar with germs and all, I squandered the best part of my youth in the futile pursuit of studying medicine. I compounded the folly, years later in America, by doing a graduate degree in epidemiology. Presently, I practice neither medicine nor epidemiology.

…SR

bg: How different the Baluchi and Pushtu languages are since they both belong to Indi-Iranian family of languages. How much Pushtu and average Balochi can understand? For example I probably understand 90+ percent Pothohari, 70+ percent Saraiki, about 10 percent Sindhi and 100 percent Punjabi because they are related languages.

Also, how different Balochi culture is from Pushtu? My understanding was that racially Balochis are much different than Pushtun. Are Balochis kin to Kurdish people? I think MAkranis are of East African extract but are People of Kalat any markedly different from Balochis in race, culture or language.

SR: I have only one question to ask.

How do you know so much about so many disciplines?

Just delighted to read such fascinating responses. It appears that my position is weakened against such a detailed case for infections, epidemics and viruses. Using Sun Tzu principle in ``Art of War`` it better to walk away than keep fighting. My previous response was right out of Jared Diamond`s Pulitzer Prize winning book, ``Guns, Germs and Steel``. But Syed`s Avenue is still open.

Urstruly: Intersting expansion in a series. How about Sahabs (friends). Shouldn`t same be applicable to Siddiqui, Farooqui, Usmani and Alvi. I am ready to bet a dollar, there are more Siddiquis than Farooquis or Usmanis.

Think about Jews. After losing 10 tribes, remaining two in 2600 years have produced 17-18 million people. I do not know when some Jews arrived in India but there were only 55000 when they left for Israel in 1948. How about Australian Aboriginies. They are known to be stranded in Australia for much more than 70 generations, yet when British came, they were less than a milliion. Somehow that expansion of series does not include a person with no children or with daughters only particularly in the earlier generations. Here is a question for you. Guess what was the most common last name in the last National Assembly of Pakistan? I rememnber going over the list of 212 members and counting last names. No.1 ---(26-27), No.2 Khan( 14-15).

Well why create a suspense. It was Shah. Couple of them from NWFP, about 8-10 from Punjab and remaining from Sindh.

fairdinkun: I look forward to your reply before it is pushed back to previous page. I have posted a response at Argument for.....I suppose I can never use that article as appendix to my matrimonial ad in India Abroad. Here is another intersting story. Once few of my friends were going out with Syed girls. only one of them ended up in marring. Rest created an association called, ``Anjuman Mut`assareen-e-Mussammat-e-Fiqah Jafria``.

RE: SR# 62

For some reason the system does not post the formula. So I will re-type it in words

Hi SR,
I was finally able to restore my ``Yaadasht`` after a good night sleep. Now I came up with a formula that can find an nth number in that series. The formula is as below:

number of individuals in nth generation

(3)powered by(n-1)
where n=1 to infinity.

I used my calculator to find the number of individuals in 70th generation and the resultant was

(8.34)multiplied by(10)powered 32

assuming every male has three male offsprings; and if every male has 2 male offspring the number becomes:

(5.9)multiplied by(10)powered 20

Even the half of this number exceeds the current world population. Still one shoud keep in mind that the above number is not the sum of whole series, it is just the 70th entry. In other words we are assuming that older generation dies right away when a younger generation is born.

I think now we can easily put our mortality rate, sterility rate, disease, famine, polygamy along with other variations and still be comfortable with the number of Saadaat in the world. How is that?

RE: SR# 62

Hi SR,
I was finally able to restore my ``Yaadasht`` after a good night sleep. Now I came up with a formula that can find an nth number in that series. The formula is as below:

number of individuals in nth generation

=(3)

RE: SR# 62

Hi SR,
I was finally able to restore my ``Yaadasht`` after a good night sleep. Now I came up with a formula that can find an nth number in that series. The formula is as below:

number of individuals in nth generation

=(3)

Urstruly, bg, Sameer, and SR,

Let me do some more research...i`ll ask my elders about a few things to get some of the facts straight. I`ll write a detailed post to settle this matter... In the mean time, don`t you guys say nothin about Syeds alright!? :)

Sameer, I anxiously await your response on Rohan`s article.

Cheers,
Fairdinkum

Urstruly,

Your mathametical induction model is very interesting and if one were to take it literally, we’d have Sayeds growing under every rock by 70 generations. Darwin once did some similar calculations are realized that if only one paramecium (a single cell creature like the amoeba) continued to grow and multiply, as it did once ever 24 hours, in five years it would become a heap of living mass of cell ten time the size of the Earth. Clearly, he figured, that was impossible in reality.

When one is simply dealing with abstract numbers, they can grow infinitely. But in biological beings one has to consider the effect of mortality, especially in the earlier generations.

:))

...SR

Sameer : [“…it was the domestication of animals … cereal grasses and sharing the same water resources with domesticated animals--the agrarian society--which developed immunity to the domesticated animals and plants born viruses. Any nomadic tribes coming in contact with agrarian and settled people will be more vulnerable than other way around.

That is exactly what happened in Americas where agrarian Europeans … came in contact with the nomadic cultures of native

Eurasia is a single land mass. The animals and plant carrying viruses were transferable through diffusion, rodent and animals seasonal migrations …a particular malignant virus does not have to depend upon exclusively on human migration …

The black death in Europe or Plagues in India were more of a local phenomenoa, benign viruses mutating to malignant ones and mutations lasting for a period not sufficient to effect all over Eurasia…”]


At times looking back through the mist of centuries is almost as hazardous a speculative pursuit as gazing into the crystal ball for a glimpse of the future. In both instances we are dependent on our imaginative intuituon. The vast nothingness of which we do not know can only be guessed at in the light of the little that we do know.

What I quote you as writing above is indeed the truth. However, there is some more to it as will attempt to explain in a minute.

But first let me say that I am not insistent upon the plague hypothesis. It is merely a plausible model that can explain some puzzling questions. Future advances in DNA technology will shore up the discipline of paleomicrobiology to where some day we may know the answer. Until them it has to be mere conjecture.

As a general rule pathogenic microorganisms (be they viruses, bacilli, mycobacteria, cocci, fungi or protozoa) are more often species specific than they are not (meaning that if they infect species A, they are harless to species B, C, D etc.) There is, indeed, considerable incidence of cross-species infection, but that is by far and away the exception rather than the rule. Over time some microbes do evolve enough to cross the species’ barrier and successfully invade new host species, but that takes special triggering events and promoting factors (HIV, many believe, has reached humans this way). One specie’s commensal (a harmless passanger) can be another specie’s killer plague bug and vice versa. .

Furthermore, when a new pathogen encounters a fresh population set of its preferred species, the early waves of the epidemic claim the greatest toll from that population. Eventually, the surviving segment of the population begins to develop a progressively better immune response. Ultimately, it comes down to a percentage of the remaining population that is immune and another segment that is vulnerable. One person’s commensal (a harmless passanger) can be another person’s killer bug (example: Typhoid Mary).

Whereas the Native American population was hit hard with the smallpox virus and the tuberculosis germ, the gift that the Europeans brought back home was Syphilis. The spirochete played havoc with the Europeans until penicillin came along in the early 20th century. Neither prince nor pauper was safe. King Henry the Eighth, for example, died of it and a strong case can be made that Abe Lincoln suffered the effects of the congenital form (acquired from the mother’s womb). The Native American’s, of course, were not nearly as affected by their ubiquitous friend, the spirochete.

Now let us suppose for a moment that the nomadic Central Asians carried a pathogen that spread through droplet infection (like the common cold, or pneumonic plague) as opposed to intimate contact (like the HIV) or flea bite (like bubonic plague). Suppose also that the organism was not lethal but, like mumps virus in adults, merely caused infertility (and thus drastically cut down population over generations). That would have been just enough to tip the balance without anyone ever noticing that something was even wrong.

My attraction to this pestulance hypothesis is that it fits the existing facts somewhat better then eather war or famine.

...SR

RE: Sameer, Fairdinkum, bd

I have been following your discussion about the present number of Syeds in the world. Although your assertions are assumptive in nature yet the logic that you follow is quite mind boggling. As a matter of fact your logic defies the basic principles of the Mathematical Induction. The Mathematical Induction is a branch of Mathematics that deals in the study of mathematical series of numbers e.g the series 2,4,6,8,….is a series of even numbers whereas 1,3,5,7….. is a series of odd numbers. Some series are simple while others are complex where each successive number in a series is obtained by a complex formula. The principles of Mathematical Induction enable us to device a formula through which an nth number in a series can be found. I think we can estimate the number of individuals in a particular generation by the following series:

1, (3X1), (3X3), (3X9), (3X27), (3X81),………….

It is quite obvious that any number of this series can be obtained by multiplying a previous number by 3. The following assumptions were made while setting up this series:

1. The first number in the series i.e. 1 is one son of Hazrat Zain-ul-Abidin. For the sake of argument we are assuming that he had only one son.

2. It is assumed that each male individual of the family bears 3 male offspring. Hence the second generation consists of 3 males (i.e represented by number 3 which is second link in the series). Each male from the 2nd generation bears three male offspring again. So the third generation consists of 9 male individuals and so on and so forth.

3. Let us assume that there are five generations in a century. It means that there are 70 generations in 1400 years.

Based on these assumptions the 70th entry in this series will represent approximately the present number of male Syeds. A 12-grader can easily setup a formula by analyzing the above series. My mathematics is very rusty since I haven’t used Mathematical Induction for a while. But with a little hard work one can easily find the 70th number in this series; and believe me it is a very large number. Now assume that at a particular point in time three generations co-exist, which is a reasonable assumption, the number reaches in millions. So far we have not considered the female members of the Syed family.

We have also not assumed other variations. For example, Awans trace back their origin to Hazrat Ali claiming that they are the offspring of a slave, not Hazrat Fatima. I know that Awans do not claim to be Syeds but that was just an example. There are other Syeds who trace their origins back to Ehl-e-bait with such relationships. Unfortunately, I can not recall a particular family at this moment.

So the number of Syeds in sub-continent is thus justified by this logic. What do you think?

re: sameer

yes, you are absolutely right, it seems close to impossible that mohammad could have produced such a huge ``awlaad``.

my response to your statement about asif zardari was tangential. i agree that his being a syed is unlikely. i was also voicing my frustration over north indian cultural hegemony. many times when indians say to me that pakistani and indian is the same thing, i point out to them that they are thinking i am like them, not that they are like me as they dont know the first thing about my hometown in pakistan. many have not heard of balochistan! anyway,...my point was only to highlight the similarity of balochistan and pakhtookhwa to iranian and arab culture relative to the rest of south asia. not because i think that arab or iranian culture is superior as it is ``islamic``, but just because its been my experience.

though iranian influence and similarity in balochistan is evident, i believe that there is a significant arab cultural and racial influence too, esp afro-arab. makrani music is powerful evidence for cultural influence. i sense the racial influence just by physical similarities between arabs and some balochs. but, in order for there to be scientific proof, we`d have to do those dna tests.

hey, why dont we do a huge fundraising campaign and put some of these claims and theories to the DNA test?

till then.

regards

Fairdinkum: Thanks for a very nice, appropriate and enlightening response about Syeds of Sindh. See, we can discuss so many topics other than I/P, I/H and K. Both you and bg have brought up issue with relation to Sindh and Balochistan. It would be of great interest to everybody to hear more about Sindh/ Sindhis, Balochistan/ Balochis and NWFP/ Pathans issues.

I am surprised to find out from your post that some Arabs came to Sindh prior to M. B. Qasim’s invasion and that Raja Dahar was not all that bad. In the light of above statement, do you think, as I do, that the justification of M. B. Qasim’s invasion was cooked up after the invasion? In all likelihood, the event of stopping a passenger boat carrying Arab women never took place. Please note laso that Arabs migrating to Sindh before or after M. B. Qasim is different than migration of Syeds. I will come back to this issue in my response to bg.

I take great interest in dissecting every issue in some crazy scientific ways. The purpose of such exercise is to get to the bottom of it. In practical life, everything is not science alone. I may know the exact ingredients of kebabs, but such information does not make it taste better for me than for others not knowing or caring about the taste. Such are the social and religious issues. The surnames, identities, ethnicities and cultures do help us get through life. They are fascinating and enjoyable irrespective of their origins in reality or myths. Unlike most Pakistanis, I am actually not against myths and mythology either. Myths and Mythology exhibit great power in many human societies. If this power is used in the right way, then all power to it.

What you have described about the habits of Syeds of Sindhs is not a problem of feudalism by Sindhi waderas as well as Punjabi zamindars and not restricted to Syeds alone. The marrying of girls to Quran, or prefering to not marrying them at all is pathetic. Syed No. 1 married all his daughters, then why Syed No. 50 chooses not to do it. The changes in such absurd behavior have to come from within the society; imposition from the top will not work. It is people like yourself who can make the difference by rebeling such inhumane behavior against the girls and other weaker members of the society.

Back to my favorite analysis through dissection. Let us see, Muhammad died in 623 AD, Karbala event took plave in 680 AD and M. B. Qasim attacked Sindh in 711 AD. As far as I know, Muhammad had two grandchildres, Hassan and Hussain. I am not sure how many male children, Hassan had and how many of them lost their lives in Karbala. My understanding is that 57 years after Muhammad’s death, he was left with one great grandchild Zain-Ul-Abidin in 680 AD. When M. B. Qasim attacked Sindh in 711 AD, it was still the time of Shia Imam Zain-Ul-Abidin who died in 714 AD. Here lies my question: how many children Zain-Ul-Abidin could father in 31 years (680-711) and how many grandchildren? The whole world wide supply of Syeds at the time of M. B. Qasim’s attack on Sindh can not be more than 100. There is essentially no chance for any of these less than 100 people deciding to settle in Sindh before M. B. Qasim. Similarly it is not possible to have any of those 100 people in M. B. Qasim’s Army because M. B. Qasim was Ummayid who have uneasy relationship with the descendent’s of Ali. You will be much better off looking for Syeds arrival much later.

bg: Thanks for your response from Pakhtuns and Balochis perspective. I ceratinly hope to see more of your posts on any number of issues. I believe that persian influence in the western Sub-Continent is undeniable. They ruled this part of the Sub-Continent during 6th century BC and later indirectly through Greek Bactrian and Selucid empires for sometime. Moreover, most of us know and acknowledge the Indo-Iranian origins of Pushtu and Balochi languages. I think the problem is lack of attention by mostly Punjabi/ Mohajir crowd who make up most of the immigrant population of USA and Canada, of Pakistani origin, and same hold true about the Pakistani chowkwallas. It is difficult to get involved in serious discussion without being well informed and we know much less about “others” than ourselves. It should be people like you participaing leading to discussions about the topics of your interests.

Unlike Persian influence all the way down to Bahadur Shah Zafar, the Arabic influence markedly decreased after Mahmud Ghaznavi’s invasions. The question really is not about Arabs, it is about Syeds. Just like Aryan, Arabic is a term for culture and not a race, though Arabic as race from Saudi Arabia, Gulf States, Kuwait, Jordan and some Iraqis are racially Arabs also. Among 200+ million Arabs, Arabic by race account for 30-40 million. There must be people coming to Balochistan or Sindh from many of these culturally Arab groups as well as racially arabs.

During Muhammad’s time, Mecca population is estimated to be 50-70 thousand people and Medina about 30-40 thousands. There were many other settlements in the sparcely populated Arabia in addition to nomadic Bedoin tribes. Now all these people have multiplied to 30-40 million people in 1400 years. How come just a single person from them ends up to be the fore-father of 10+ million Syeds ( you must include all claimants, including Alavis, Rizvis, Kazmis, Naqvis, Zaidis, and Syeds) spread from Turkey, Iran, Central Asia, Afghanistan, Pakistan, India and Bangladesh in addition to the royal families of Jordan, S. Arabia and Morocco? There have to be other pathways available to become Syed other than the blood descendants.

This is exactly my interest: to find out some reasonable justification to a very large number of Syeds. There is absolutely no reason to suggest--to a Syed or to someone carrying any other surname--to drop it or to ridicule it as a myth or to discriminate on the surname bases.

Fairdinkum: Thanks for a very nice, appropriate and enlightening response about Syeds of Sindh. See, we can discuss so many topics other than I/P, I/H and K. Both you and bg have brought up issue with relation to Sindh and Balochistan. It would be of great interest to everybody to hear more about Sindh/ Sindhis, Balochistan/ Balochis and NWFP/ Pathans issues.

I am surprised to find out from your post that some Arabs came to Sindh prior to M. B. Qasim’s invasion and that Raja Dahar was not all that bad. In the light of above statement, do you think, as I do, that the justification of M. B. Qasim’s invasion was cooked up after the invasion? In all likelihood, the event of stopping a passenger boat carrying Arab women never took place. Please note laso that Arabs migrating to Sindh before or after M. B. Qasim is different than migration of Syeds. I will come back to this issue in my response to bg.

I take great interest in dissecting every issue in some crazy scientific ways. The purpose of such exercise is to get to the bottom of it. In practical life, everything is not science alone. I may know the exact ingredients of kebabs, but such information does not make it taste better for me than for others not knowing or caring about the taste. Such are the social and religious issues. The surnames, identities, ethnicities and cultures do help us get through life. They are fascinating and enjoyable irrespective of their origins in reality or myths. Unlike most Pakistanis, I am actually not against myths and mythology either. Myths and Mythology exhibit great power in many human societies. If this power is used in the right way, then all power to it.

What you have described about the habits of Syeds of Sindhs is not a problem of feudalism by Sindhi waderas as well as Punjabi zamindars and not restricted to Syeds alone. The marrying of girls to Quran, or prefering to not marrying them at all is pathetic. Syed No. 1 married all his daughters, then why Syed No. 50 chooses not to do it. The changes in such absurd behavior have to come from within the society; imposition from the top will not work. It is people like yourself who can make the difference by rebeling such inhumane behavior against the girls and other weaker members of the society.

Back to my favorite analysis through dissection. Let us see, Muhammad died in 623 AD, Karbala event took plave in 680 AD and M. B. Qasim attacked Sindh in 711 AD. As far as I know, Muhammad had two grandchildres, Hassan and Hussain. I am not sure how many male children, Hassan had and how many of them lost their lives in Karbala. My understanding is that 57 years after Muhammad’s death, he was left with one great grandchild Zain-Ul-Abidin in 680 AD. When M. B. Qasim attacked Sindh in 711 AD, it was still the time of Shia Imam Zain-Ul-Abidin who died in 714 AD. Here lies my question: how many children Zain-Ul-Abidin could father in 31 years (680-711) and how many grandchildren? The whole world wide supply of Syeds at the time of M. B. Qasim’s attack on Sindh can not be more than 100. There is essentially no chance for any of these less than 100 people deciding to settle in Sindh before M. B. Qasim. Similarly it is not possible to have any of those 100 people in M. B. Qasim’s Army because M. B. Qasim was Ummayid who have uneasy relationship with the descendent’s of Ali. You will be much better off looking for Syeds arrival much later.

bg: Thanks for your response from Pakhtuns and Balochis perspective. I ceratinly hope to see more of your posts on any number of issues. I believe that persian influence in the western Sub-Continent is undeniable. They ruled this part of the Sub-Continent during 6th century BC and later indirectly through Greek Bactrian and Selucid empires for sometime. Moreover, most of us know and acknowledge the Indo-Iranian origins of Pushtu and Balochi languages. I think the problem is lack of attention by mostly Punjabi/ Mohajir crowd who make up most of the immigrant population of USA and Canada, of Pakistani origin, and same hold true about the Pakistani chowkwallas. It is difficult to get involved in serious discussion without being well informed and we know much less about “others” than ourselves. It should be people like you participaing leading to discussions about the topics of your interests.

Unlike Persian influence all the way down to Bahadur Shah Zafar, the Arabic influence markedly decreased after Mahmud Ghaznavi’s invasions. The question really is not about Arabs, it is about Syeds. Just like Aryan, Arabic is a term for culture and not a race, though Arabic as race from Saudi Arabia, Gulf States, Kuwait, Jordan and some Iraqis are racially Arabs also. Among 200+ million Arabs, Arabic by race account for 30-40 million. There must be people coming to Balochistan or Sindh from many of these culturally Arab groups as well as racially arabs.

During Muhammad’s time, Mecca population is estimated to be 50-70 thousand people and Medina about 30-40 thousands. There were many other settlements in the sparcely populated Arabia in addition to nomadic Bedoin tribes. Now all these people have multiplied to 30-40 million people in 1400 years. How come just a single person from them ends up to be the fore-father of 10+ million Syeds ( you must include all claimants, including Alavis, Rizvis, Kazmis, Naqvis, Zaidis, and Syeds) spread from Turkey, Iran, Central Asia, Afghanistan, Pakistan, India and Bangladesh in addition to the royal families of Jordan, S. Arabia and Morocco? There have to be other pathways available to become Syed other than the blood descendants.

This is exactly my interest: to find out some reasonable justification to a very large number of Syeds. There is absolutely no reason to suggest--to a Syed or to someone carrying any other surname--to drop it or to ridicule it as a myth or to discrimnate on the surname bases.

Scout #54

Iranians as you know are very apt at putting prename and surnames.

Like Haj for Haji. Whoever went to Karbala is Kla (probably Karbalai) and whoever has seen Imam Raza Mosoleum is Mush (probably Mushhadi).

Tababtabai, Like Allama Tabatabai are more revered because of both lineages tracing back to Prophet PBUH. Syeds can be from one lineage.

At least that is my understanding.

Any way as a Muslim I believe in last sermon of prophet ``There is no superiority of Arab over non-Arab, nor is white superior to black. Superior among you is one who is more pious.

Urstruly,
I am afraid she is :)

Scout,
One can read Quran as a book (not as a religious) and still find it quite interesting and beneficial in many ways ... Why can`t I use Quran to elaborate my point? It`s just another book brilliantly written and uses ancient history very persuasively to draw lessons for present and future.

And I don’t know whether you are religious or not, but your insistence on irrelevancy of ancient history to all South Asians is nothing short of proclamation of Prophet hood of a new religion which does not believe in ancient history :)

Sameer #41

Sameer,

I am greatly offended by your post and I will never forgive you for what you have written about my ancestors :) - Just kidding! Thanks for your interesting post. I quite enjoyed it.
I concur with you that earliest preachers of Islam in Sind were mostly Shia Muslims and probably a lot of them were Syeds (though somewhat diluted in their genetic makeup as you suggest) who arrived in Sind as refugees avoiding persecution in Arabia. It is well known that Raja Dahir was a kind and just ruler who provided protection/shelter to many such refuges and despite several requests/threats from authorities in Arabia he refused to hand them over. What happened once these migrants settled down in Sind and made it their home and started interacting with local people, in relation to inter-marriages of Syed men with local women (and Syed women with local men), and the rest (including what you suggest in your post) is anybody’s guess. Your view is logically understandable to a large extent. In addition to your arguments, it is quite interesting that not many of them (Syeds) are able to prove their lineage to Mohammad by way of genealogy either. I have been interested in this for quite sometime now and have asked several of the Syeds about their family tree and how they trace their roots to Mohammad. It is usually a mind-boggling detour, which eventually connects them to one of the children of Fatima and Ali.

Syeds of present-day Sind usually do not prefer to marry into non-Syeds – especially their women are not allowed to marry a non-Syed. I know for fact that several of my relatives prefer to keep their daughters at home (marrying a woman to Quran is still not too un-common a practice) rather than let them marry into non-Syeds. Even a Syed who is of less status in the society or less wealthy than them is, sometimes, not good enough. This practice on the surface seems to be an effort to preserve their genetic inheritance, but in my view, this is largely due to the fear of losing land/property/wealth to outsiders rather than anything else.

As for Asif Zardari, well, I agree with bg … he is nothing more than a scumbag – and (like bg) I don’t see why a Baloch cannot be a Syed? Balochistan has a border with Iran. One of the Imams of Shia Muslims (Imam Ali Raza, a true descendent of Mohammad) migrated to Iran (again to avoid persecution in Arabia) and settled down in Mashhad. His shrine is the holiest place for Irani Shia Muslims. It is highly likely that some of his decedents later moved to areas, which are now called Balochistan. However, I doubt that Asif Zardir’s family is from one of them :) I concur with your statement that “It is impossible to separate the “true” Syeds from “acquired” , “adopted” or “phony” Syeds.” Unless we go down the path of DNA testing as suggested by gymnosophist (thanks for your post gynmo – I largely agree with your view).

Whether or not we are able to separate true Syed from a phony Syed, the fact is that we have this elite class in Sind who call themselves ‘Syeds’ (they usually use Shah as their surname). My interest in this matter is not because of any religious or racial inclinations, but due to my absolute abhorrence to continued exploitation of poor Sindhis by these so-called ‘Syeds’ or ‘Shahs’. I totally understand why Sindhis gave so much respect to Syeds in the distant past. It was probably because of the character, integrity, and most of all knowledge and wisdom of people like Shah Abdul Latif, but present-day Syeds of Sind do not deserve this treatment. They have proven themselves to be unworthy of such respect. They’ve subverted and caused a lot of pain and suffering to poor Sindhis who provided protection and greeted them with immense hospitality. It is not the poor Sindhi who is to be blamed for creating this unacceptable situation of exploitation by Syeds – they only respected (and still do respect) Syeds for what Mohammad did for mankind. It is the Syeds who are to be blamed for their greed and lust for power.

Regards,
Fairdinkum

krashid #50,

So there are different classes of Syeds depending on where you`re from?

Sohail (SR): Thanks a lot for a very nicely put detailed article about this subject, the best response thus far, in my opinion. Obviously you are well informed and very knowledgeable. I would have gladly exchanged your post with my piece except for the last part about immunity and epidemics.

My understanding, reading from various sources, is that prolong association with animals, plants and contaminated water resources had been the major reason of developing immunity. To put it simply, it was the domestication of animals, domestication of cereal grasses and sharing the same water resources with domesticated animals--the agrarian society--which developed immunity to the domesticated animals and plants born viruses. Any nomadic tribes coming in contact with agrarian and settled people will be more vulnerable than other way around. That is exactly what happened in Americas where agrarian Europeans carrying smallpox and dysentary viruses but immune to them, came in contact with the nomadic cultures of native Indians who have no immunity to these viruses, leading to the biggest disater in human history.

Unlike Americas and Europe distant apart by Atlantic ocean, Eurasia is a single land mass. The animals and plant carrying viruses were transferable through diffusion, rodent and animals seasonal migrations and natural phenomenon of winds disributing the viruses carrying seeds to a greater distances. What it means is that a particular malignant virus does not have to depend upon exclusively on human migration as it was the case betweem Americas and Europe. That is why there is no specific record of large scale epidemics in Eurasia resulting from migration of people. The black death in Europe or Plagues in India were more of a local phenomenoa, benign viruses mutating to malignant ones and mutations lasting for a period not sufficient to effect all over Eurasia.

There is certainly some probability of what you are suggesting but much greater probability of agrarian Indian decimating the migrating nomadic central asians by infecting them with domesticated animals and cereal born viruses. [Even believing in Aryan Invasion and turning natives into Shudra, relegating them to menial work and taking care of dead organic matter clearly indicate the natives greater immunity to dirtier and unhealthy environment. Shudras could not have survived the filthy environment, if they had less immunity to some ``Aryan`` viruses.]

There is absolutely no argument about rest of your post. Just fantastic!!!

regards,

Sameer

Scout: I am glad that I did not offend you by writing a post about Syeds. Actually same will be true of any other surname if looked back to 50 generations. At the same time if an identity based on truth or mythology helps to bring the best out of a person, then it is good. When it is used to downgrade others, it is bad. I must admit though, for majority, it is irrelevent issue.

Dost-Mitter: Different areas in India have different traditions and same is true among Muslims. There are Syeds in Bangladesh but not as many as in UP, Behar and Pakistan. Syed surname is not used among Arabs although powerful families like Moroccan, Saudi and Jordanian royal families trace their origins back to Muhammad and use it as part of their justification to be hereditary leaders of their subjects. There was a famous Syed from Hyderabad (AP) in Pakistan, named Maulana Maudoodi, founder of Jamaat-e-Islami. There are certain myths in some of the rural areas of NWFP, Punjab and Sindh about Syeds but in urban centers, generally they niether demand nor get any special treatment. BTW, your couple of posts about Khatris were very interesting and informative. Thanks.

bd: You have made a good point about river Saraswati possibly blocking upstream as a result of major catastrophic event. It will be interesting to find some large dry lake bed along the supposed path of the river in Kashmir, HP or northern UP.

Ilove money: Most of the information about old Indian history comes mainly from archaeology and Vedas. Unfortunately, the people of Indus valley did not leave behind great deal of written material. Moreover, what written material is available has not been ciphered yet. There were several seals excavated from Harappa and Mohenjo-daro; some depicting sun worship, naga worship and a priest sitting in standard yoga position. The pictures of these seals are widely available in a number of books and might be available at www.harappa.com also. Archaeologists have developed some very ingenious methodologies to extract large amount of information from various kinds of remains found at these sites. Please read SR’s post which gives great deal more information on the lives and times of Indus valley people.

I wonder if your other post was meant to be here or at “1971 in 2000” board. A lot of Paksitanis and Indians would have happily responded to it. Yet it is undeniable that human do not learn from historical as well as “non-historical” mistakes and keep repeating them.

interesting and well researched article, sameer. as SR says, somehow the idea of indoeuropean speakers has become synonymous with ``race``. and a hypothesis has assumed the status of history. the questions you raise help our much needed re-educaiton.

re your post #41
``It is surprising to see a person like Asif Zardari can simultaneously claim himself as a Baloch and a Syed.``

actually, i dont know if asif zardari can claim to be anything other than a sleaze-bag, but...

...why do you assume that baloch and syed are mutually exclusive (as you imply)?

though ``indigenous`` balochs are believed to be the fast disappearing gypsy shepards, present day balochistan is probably as diverse, if not more, as any other part of the sub-continent. in quetta alone, you will find the east asian looking, darri speaking ``hazaras``; the balochi speaking african-looking makranis; the green-eyed, light haired, pushto speaking pathans; the brahvi speaking, semitic looking ``kurds`` (there are brahvi-speaking families who go by the last name kurd, which is not as prestigious as syed, so more likely not to be a fiction and the ethnic diversity i have enumerated predates the afghan war).

balochi music, food and general culture has a great deal in common with semitic/arab, persian and afghan culture. in fact, many balochs are believed to be semitic. so, though i cannot speak for asif zardari, i think it is not entirely impossible for some balochs to have semitic roots. how many of them are ``syeds``, is of course, another matter.

i agree that most pakistanis ignore their south-asianness and identify as arab/persian/central asian. but, when we make fun of those claiming to be ``syeds``, we run the risk of throwing the baby out with the bath-water.

there is clearly a great deal of arab/central asian cutlure and blood floating around in western south asia, esp balochistan and pakhtoonkhwa. in fact, parts of pakhtoonkhwa and balochistan should strictly be considered central/western asia based on language and cultural similarities. you cannot convince a pakistani pathan that s/he has more in common with a tamil from madras than the guy across the border in afghanistan.

i think many times discussions on our history and racial/ethnic origins tend to only consider the perdominant groups in pakistan -- the punjabis, and to some extent, sindhis and those whose ancestors migrated from what is now india. it is presumed that if the punjabis, north indian muslims and sindhis are making false claims to arab/central asian descent, then that is true for ALL south asian muslims. and that is clearly inaccurate.

scout #44

I think in Iran if one of your family member is Syed, they are called Sayyed. If the lineage is all along Syed they are called Tabatabai.

RE: SameerJB #43

Maluk Saib wut maza taN nah aya naN. Koi GideR singhi kado, koi phultro sunghao jatki aaN wadday ilmaN Walayo. Zaat ni Korh Kirli tay japhay maray shehteeraN nooN, Hain Maluk Saib?

I think the Sayedaat that you mentioned sing in Pahari which is more of South Eastern kashmiri-Lala Atta Ullah Khan Isa Khailawi is more like it.

Re: Humsab #7

Can you give me one example where people have actually learned from history. They keep on making the same mistakes again however much they have read about the past.

Why not invent imaginary utopias. It gives us something to strive towards instead of just feeling that it is alright to go to war etc. because people have always done so.

Sameer

Some intresting arguments, but I don`t see any of the proof you promise. e.g. when you say that Harrapan people practised yoga, how do you know?

If statues of people in yogic positions or something have been found, you should have said so, it would make the article much more convincing.

satish # 32, sameer jb #35

Gentlemen, there can be a relatively simple explanation for the saraswati (1) changing course drastically (2) drying up dramatically. As you very well know, most of the headwaters of these rivers arise in the mountains and that area is a major tectonic activity area. Natural Dams are formed quite easily and they do burst easily as well, that can have a catastrophic flood downstream and post flood, the river course can be dramatically different, specially if it happens upstream. A case in point is the recent flood in Arunachal Pradesh, which has been blamed on a natural dam giving way in the Tibetan region rather than rain-runoff.

Sincerely

bd

SameerJB #41,

Wow. Great post.

My mother`s family are ``Syeds`` dating back from Iran. But I never bought the idea of being related to the Prophet and showing it off like that. She doesn`t either.

When my ``Syed`` paternal grandfather married my mother off to a Punjabi, he suffered admonishment from his brothers, for marring the ``Syeds only marrying Syeds`` tradition. Just goes to show, how people use a mere title to justify their superficial ``I`m better than you,`` ideas.

scout

Urstruly: eh tusaN ki teera jatok honha te banda nibbarh lena per banda is kee keh aakhey--bunh accho?

How is my Pothoari? Love to listen to Malika Pukhraj/ Tahira Syed paharhi folk songs!!!

Brother t: Thanks for coming out to support me even though I owe you one too many apologies for failing to respond on personal level. t, it has been my weakness throughout to have difficluty in saying no to the people I have immense regard. My schedule did not provide me a window of opportunity to commit myself. I sincerely hope for forgiveness. By the way, how did it go?

Regards,

Sameer

Fairdinkum: Here is something about Syeds, you might enjoy reading it. Please do not take it too seriously, if you are one or have special regards for them. This is just one person`s opinion.

Before the invasions of Mahmud Ghaznavi, Islam was mainly spread by Ismaili and Shia preachers. Being the followers of Ali, a claim for the descendency from Muhammad was very helpful in justifying their stands on various issues. It is possible that some of these earlier preacher settled in Sindh, or they endowed the title of Syed to the elders of newly converts. Some of these people later on switched to Sunni branches but kept their honorable surnames. Same might not be true for Syeds from other regions of sub-continent. My guess for UP Syeds as well as Qureshi, Farooqi, Usmain, Alavi, etc. is that they are substitutes for their non-Muslim surnames following conversion. In Sindh and Punjab, newly converts kept on their previous surnames, for example, Aslam Cheema, Ghulam Muhammad Bajwa and Abdullah Janjua but in UP there are probably no Aslam Tiwari, Ghulam Muhammad Sharma or Abdullah Singh Yadav. Then there are people who became Syeds by virtue of their position or by just inhaling enough germs from a Syed sneezing nearby. That is all I can say about the history of Syeds of Sindh. It is surprising to see a person like Asif Zardari can simultaneously claim himself as a Baloch and a Syed. It is impossible to separate the “true” Syeds from “acquired” , “adopted” or “phony” Syeds.

Lets have some fun by exploiting this topic further. Let us assume that any one who claims to be a Syed is in fact a descendent from Muhammad. Let us say there are 5 million Syeds in the sub-continent. Scientifically speaking, there should be additional 5 million people, descendents from Syed females ending up marrying non-Syeds and do not carry Syed surname but have the same genetic make up as any other Syed.

The present day Syeds are roughly 50th generation from Muhammad (1400 years/30 years). It is impossible to accept that no infidelity occured at any time during the last 50 generations of Syeds. Some degree of infidelity has always been present in all societies at all times. Infidelities occured in the earlier generations, say first 15, must have been grossly magnified by now among 5 million Syeds without anybody knowing or caring about it. Similarly, Syed men must have fathered large number of children with women, not their wives and thus do not carry their surname. The surnames from the father is really a social phenomenon; scientifically a surname from mother is at least, equally if not little more, important.

From atomic and molecular point of view, all of us share atoms from each others body during their lives as well after their death--throught he process of organic matter decaying to carbon dioxide, spreading around the world through diffusion and winds (trade, tropical etc.). Statisically, we are all Syeds including Jay and Rsaxena by virtue of sharing Muhammad at atomic level. But atoms do not determine chemical/ biological properties, molecules do. At molecular or genetic level, nobody is a Syed because Muhammad’s genes much have been diluted to less than one percent by now, during 50 generations. Fatima carried 50 percent, Imam Hussain 25 percent and Zain-Ul-Abideen 12.5 percent of Muhammad’s genes; not very difficult to figure out the the percent down to 50th Asif Ali Zardari generation, excluding the possibility of Syeds marrying exclusively amongst themselves. Moreover, you have to consider the possiblity of this much less than one percent of Muhammad’s genes residing in the inactive or less important 90+ percent of our genetic material thus not contributing any recognizable features.

It is possible for successive Syed generations to pass certain distinct or honorable values through nurturing. But what stops parents next door, non-Syeds, not to instill similar good values to their offsprings and raising them to be good members of the society.

Surnames are nothing but one of the several way to identify onself with certain segments of a society. It is wrong to use lineage for acquiring benefits and wrong for others to accept superiority of Syeds or Pandits, even in the matters of religion. But then religions demand obedience to their respective dogma and not some rational or logical discussion, particularly on the matters which may be detrimental to the status and well being of the priestly classes. That is why, despite no atomic, molecualr, social or moral superiority--Syeds or Pandits are generally more respected than other surnames only because it is a state of mind for a large number of people from South Asia.

RE: Fairdinkum, Sameer

Scout is a tough customer eh?

fairdinkum #36, ``From reading your various posts on other boards, I assume that you are quite interested in Islam and other religions. ``

Not really. I just think religion is a personal matter which should be respected and should be separated from other ``worldly`` matters to some extent.

``Have you ever thought about why Allah is so interested in ancient history? ``

No I never thought about it, and probably never will. And thinking about it will still not answer my question about the relevancy of Aryans to present day Desi society. Why bring religion into this?

``What relevance does Ancient Egyptian history has for present day South Asians?``

Well, the Egyptians were a bright lot and have effected ``world`` culture greatly as is obvious by their art, architecture, etc. Women still use the Egyptian inspired Henna and Kohl. It`s not much, but it`s still something. We have a country full of Egyptians, of Egyptian culture and heritage.

How can you even compare it with the Aryans?

``Remember that Quran is addressed to mankind rather than just Muslims… I hope you get my drift!? ``

Again, why bring religion into it? Secondly, I don`t get your drift. Sorry if I`m missing the whole point of your reply.

But thanks for replying.

SR #35:

Thank you Sohail. It is always a pleasure to read your thoughtful posts.

Sameer#34:

Thank you for this. How is the `story` progressing?

One must be passionate about life. There is more to life than (earning a) living. Those who have no passions are dullards doomed to the dustbin of Present (& Past.)

Keep writing!

regards,

temporal

Sameer,
I look forward to your post.. I, being a Sindhi Syed myself, know a little bit about our history...but not much.. so it will be interesting to read your post.

Re: Scout #33

Dear Scout,

I did not mean to brush you aside. I regret that you felt that way. I realize that you are genuinely curious about the relevance of ancient history in present times. I also understand that relevance of more recent history is obvious, whereas study of ancient history is more of an acquired taste rather than a popular pursuit. Here is a brief account of how and why I got interested in ancient history. I actually never went through this stage of questioning the relevance of ancient history for present times… So, it may not be very helpful to you. Still, it may shed some light on the issue at hand.

I know that I advised Sameer not to justify his work on moral/religious grounds, and I stand by my statement (ok, I never practice what I preach :)). I’ll repeat that academic value of this kind of research work is justification enough. And Sameer has addressed the relevance issue quite eloquently and sufficiently.


From reading your various posts on other boards, I assume that you are quite interested in Islam and other religions. Have you ever thought about why Allah is so interested in ancient history? His book, the Quran, uses ancient history with supreme persuasiveness, and unmatched eloquence to draw lessons for present and future generations of mankind. What relevance does Ancient Egyptian history has for present day South Asians? Remember that Quran is addressed to mankind rather than just Muslims… I hope you get my drift!?

Take care.

Regards,
Faidinkum

Thanks for writing this article Sameer. Really enjoyed reading it. A while back another article with a very similar slant (though not as well research) appeared on The Chowk. Perhaps those interested would like to look it up:

http://www.chowk.com/bin/showr.cgi?ashim_mar3198

It is an understatement to say that there exist great gaps of ignorance in our knowledge of the ancient past. In fact what we have are only gaps of knowledge in our sea of ignorance.

In recent years much archeological work has been done in the subcontinent. Lahore museum, for instance, has been participating with several multinational groups (American, French, Japanese) to unearth and interpret the past along the Indus Valley. Similar work has been done in Rajistan, Sindh, Mysore, and along the Ganges Valley to name just a few.

The earliest human activity in India goes back to the Second Inter-galactic age (before circa 200,000 BC). The culmination of a slow cultural evolution was the highly advanced Harappa Culture (c. 2500 BC), with still older ones in Baluchistan (Nal Culture) and Makran coast (Kulli Culture) and some others along the rivers of Punjab, Rajistan and the Kathiawar region. The Harappa Culture was the most advanced ancient culture which seems to have a city-state setup. Spread over a thousand miles there were cities in areas as far as Rajistan (Kalibangan), Punjab (Rupar), Sindh (Kot Diji) and Gugrat (port-town of Lothal). There was commerce and trade between The Indus Valley people and those of the Persian Gulf and Mesopotamia. This civilization declined and went belly-up by 1500 BC, which is when the so-called Aryans come into the picture.

Ethnological researchers believe that there were at least six racial groups in the ancient subcontinent: the Nigrito, Proto-Australoid, Alpine, Mongoloid, Mediterranean and much later on those assigned the term `Aryan`. Skeletal remains at Harappan sites do not include the `Aryan`.

`Aryan` is in fact a term applied to a speech-group not a race. To refer to the migration of the Aryans is technically inaccurate. However, it has become so customary that it will sound rather pedantic to refer to the `Aryans` as ``the groups of people who spoke Indo-European languages``.

There is indeed no evidence of ``invasion``. To say that a great Aryan army ``invaded`` the Indus Valley is a very simplistic model. But there is another possibility:

The immigrants were nomadic barbarians who came over to a settled agrarian civilization. Like the Germanic people who ``invaded`` Italy centuries later, these Aryan people were immigrants, rather than marauding invaders. They may have brought new diseases with them that the natives did not have in their natural habitat. These `migrants` from Central Asia were most likely simple `economic refugees`. They left a harsh landscape, perhaps due to worsening climatic conditions and failing crops and ended up in the fertile lands of the subcontinent. India was fertile and prosperous and the West Asian landscape was harsh and inhospitable. Perhaps they brought diseases with them against which the local population had no immunity. The plagues that came with the refugees may have done worse than any invading army could possibly have done.

The recent example of North America can serve as a model here. (Native American populations were decimated as a result of new diseases, and NOT due to military disasters at the hands of the Old World immigrants.) A hundred years from now the `brown invasion` of the US will have changed the racial make up here. (In 2030 more than 50% newborns will be non-white.) In five hundred years the only `pure whites` may be left in the hills of Montana, Wyoming and the Badlands of the Dakotas. Will we then be justified in saying that there is no evidence of a `brown invasion` of North America? :)

The Sanskrit term `arya` did come to mean `noble` but that was a later Brahaminical innovation. The original word comes from the Sanskrit root `ri-ar` which means ``to plough``; cf: the Latin ``aratrum``, a plough, and ``area``, an open space. On this theory, as you also point out, Wil Durant suggests that the word `Aryan` originally meant not nobleman but peasant.

The `Painted-Grey Ware` culture which is associated with the Neolithic speakers of Indo-European languages shows a gradual spread eastward in the subcontinent along the Ganges plain. Carbon 14 tests demonstrate this with reasonable certainty today and the dates of the gradual progression range from 1500 to 500 BC. Material from Atranji Khera (near Alighar) considered to be the mid-point of the migration is dated at 1025 BC (margin of error = 110 years).

It is entirely plausible that as the native populations were destroyed by the mysterious plague, the relatively immune migrants simply took over their vaccant lands and thrived and multiplied, spreading east and south. At some point, the surviving native populations developed natural immunity against those foreign bugs which had dwindled their numbers over the previous couple of centuries.

...SR

I am puzzled by the persistency of the debate about the relevance of this piece to people of South Asia at the individual and/ or collective level. As far as I remember from my high school years, the first chapter in the history textbook was always about the old history, Harappa, Mohenjodaro, Aryans etc. It never occured to me until 3-4 days ago that it was irrelevent. I suppose same can be said about any subject, any topic and any thing.

At individual level it is normal for people to like or dislike a subject but a judgement of irrelevency for collective South Asian people is quite a different thing. It must be backed by argument or credible data/ reasoning to support it. It is one of the easiest thing to be critical of anything based on disinterest alone. As the responses indicate there are quite a few chowkwallas who do not consider it irrelevent.

Why would a person with background in Chemistry and Chemistry being his bread and butter for all his professional life will be interested in history, archaeology, religions, philosophy and host of other subjects when he could have spent all his life reading Chemistry literature. People do buy and read books other than their major area of interest, not just for entertainment but also to broaden their horizon. Any subject dealing with any aspect of India/ Pakistan are bound to be relevent to some South Asian people.

Satish: Thanks for your post about Saraswati river. There is nothing unusual about finding dry river beds because river do change path over time. Similarly noone can deny the excavation of settlements along the old river paths all over the world--alongside Nile, Indus, Tigris, Euphretis and Mississipri-Missouri. However, it takes catastrophic event for people to abruptly migrate. A slow migration with the slow changing of river conditions usually do not lead to major and sudden conflicts. My personal feeling is that there were minor conflicts which were mythologized by Veda literature in the same way as conflicts between Jewish tribe and Egyptian Pharoah are exaggerated and mythologized by Jewish literature.

fairdinkum: I will post response to Sindhi Syeds later today, though I do not know great detail about it. But you may find my post interesting!!!

fairdinkum,

Don`t assume I mean all history is irrelevant. Read my posts again carefully.

As to the relevance of the whole Aryan Invasion Fiasco, enlighten me please instead of brushing me off.

I want to learn the relevance of the Aryans to present day South Asia. I sincerely do.

Re: Arun

You asked about geological proof of Sarasvati River and the year of its drying up. There has been a little work on this, and they have got some very useful results. Based on remote sensing satellite data, they have mapped the course of Sarasvati along the Ghaggar-Hakra channels. they have found water at as a little depths as 30 feet along this channel and their geological models place the drying up of the basin at about 2000BC. The ground water along this channel has been analyzed using tritium dating methods and found not to have been recharged from surface water for at least 4000 years. (You probably know that tritium is generated in surface water by cosmic rays, and decays fast when the water goes underground.) They have used some other dating techniques as well. You could find the details about this at the Sindhu-Sarasvati web site (I have forgotten the exact url, but it is quite easy to dig out, and also in the writings of Prof. Kalyanraman. Some of the recent issues of Current Science and Resonance, two journals from Bangalore had articles on Sarasvati Basin.

Scout #27

Dear Scout,

Let me refresh your memory:

You said: [I think exploring and perusing old world history is nothing but bored men dying to have an intellectual discussion to kill time and make themselves look smart.] Post #4

In fact, I`ve put it quite mildly, and in polite terms by saying that you probably didn`t see any point in the study of history.

You say: [What will studying Aryans do for us? Will it provide us with a better understanding of Pakistanis and Indians in this day and age?
Think about it.]


I understand that you fail to see relevance of history for present times or for the future. Relevence will dawn on you through contemplation... whenever you have some spare time (away from your very productive and enlightening, India v Pakistan mud slinging matches), take a deep breath and think about it :)
And I am not trying to put you down by being sarcastic.

As for history being the domain of ``bored men``, I do not concur with you there either.. There are quite a few prominent women historians who are also bored, trying hard to kill time & dying to look smart too :)

Take care, and stay cool!

Regards,
Fairdinkum

SalmanGorsi

I think I am one of the guilty as charged. I have already clarified in my response number 18 that I like to see author`s work at an academic level. It will be great dishonesty if you do not admit that Sameers effort is as objective as it could get and does qualify the academic merit. My point in my respose # 12 was of academic nature-where I wanted to elaborate the difference between a hypothesis and a theory and Sameer has hilighted the point in his response. I agree with him.

My response# 18 is also of an academic nature. I dont beleive that historians should work with a specific agenda in their mind. I think they should refrain from political and social nature of interpretation of their findings.History is already a very subjective subject and a historian should be the last person who should do the ``political`` and ``social`` interpretation for the ``reader``.

fairdinkum #27 ``As for people like scout who find it difficult to see any point in the study of history, well, you can’t really help them by writing a couple of responses.``

I don`t quite remember saying that :). I think history pertaining to people should stay within AD

and limited to useful data. Leave the BC centuries to the ecologists and environmentalists studying global warming etc, which is relevant to us in this day and age.

What will studying Aryans do for us? Will it provide us with a better understanding of Pakistanis and Indians in this day and age?

Think about it.

If it interests people, that`s another matter.

To each his own. And someone should write about it for other interested people, like Sameer did, and it was good.

I`m strictly talking about relevance here.

I`m not trying to put anyone down.

Ref fairdinkum #: 27

You said {A slight digression here… It would be great, if you did some research on the Syeds of Pakistan with a particular emphasis on Sind. I think you’ll find that a lot of these so-called ‘Syeds’ are not able to trace their roots back to Mohammad without a mind-boggling detour.}

Any research, unless based on scientifically irrefutable facts, is likely to be debated endlessly without coming to a conclusion. Recently there was a program on public TV here about an African tribe in Kenya claimimg to be Jews. Since the priestly classes (surnamed Cohen [or Hacohen] and Levi [or Halevi]) among Jews have rather strict rules against intermarriage with the rest of the Jewish community, a large number of Cohens and Levis in Israel were DNA sampled to establish a distinct charateristic. When the same characteristic was found in 50% of the African tribe, compared to much less than that among other Jews in Israel, a conclusion was drawn that this tribe is likely to have a Jewish ancestry.

One perhaps has to do a scientific survey at this level (costing several hundred thousand dollars) to establish with any credibility the lineage of Pakistani Sayyids. On the other hand, with the intermingling of Sayyids with the general population (hasn`t the claim been repeatedly made here on the Chowk that in Islam all people are treated equal?), it may be difficult to locate such a distinguishing DNA marker.

A study along similar lines was done among Brahmins and non-Brahmins by Kamaraj University in India (I don`t have the reference handy but can look it up if anyone is interested) but it didn`t involve a large sample. It might be interesting to establish genetic markers for the various `gotras` of the Brahmins to see if in fact they have any validity either.

Sameer,

A fascinating, mesmerizing, and intriguing topic - and well written. Thank you very much for sharing it with us… First, a brief comment on some of your responses:
Because of the academic nature of this article, I don’t think there is any need to justify this work on moral/religious grounds. Its academic value is justification enough. You are not in the business of providing moral guidance based on your research. You deal with facts in a purely scientific manner. The moment you get into moral justification business, the whole thing will become controversial and you’ll be labelled as something that you really are not. South Asian (and particularly Pakistani) mind is very susceptible to hallucinations – seeing hidden agendas and conspiracies against their religion/faith/culture etc. is the first stage of their delusional state of mind … So, in a way, I agree with ‘urstruly’ that you should keep it at an academic level.

However, that doesn’t stop you from (for example) refuting claims of racial superiority from certain sections of sub-continent population. But, you base your stance on facts rather than give it a moral angle.
As for people like scout who find it difficult to see any point in the study of history, well, you can’t really help them by writing a couple of responses.

Now on the content of the article:

The arguments you’ve presented against AIT are well known and have been around for sometime. In addition to what you have discussed, I find it interesting that the caste system is unique to Vedic people. Why isn’t there any trace of caste system elsewhere in western culture? If Vedic people were fair skinned, then why their heroes such as Rama, Krishna, and Shiva were dark skinned? Why don’t other Indo-European languages follow a consistent structure as Sanskrit does?
There are so many other historical, archaeological, and other facts now available to us (some of them are covered by your article), which are un-explainable on the basis of AIT. However, whereas these newly discovered facts might put AIT into doubt, they do not lead us to an alternative hypothesis to AIT in a conclusive manner yet. The other difficulty is that AIT is deeply entrenched and it will take a while to completely dislodge it. An alternative hypothesis strongly refuting the AIT is only the first step.

A slight digression here… It would be great, if you did some research on the Syeds of Pakistan with a particular emphasis on Sind. I think you’ll find that a lot of these so-called ‘Syeds’ are not able to trace their roots back to Mohammad without a mind-boggling detour.

I also do not understand why so much of criticism and name-calling about this article. If not anything, this article has certainly a very high pedagogic value. Sameer, thanks for an enlightening article, as usual I might say. Keep us informing and enlightened.

Humbly cheraym

Re: JR #21,

That`s a great point. All cultures have their mythical `super age`. For some it lies in the past and for some in the future. To me, the cultures whose `super age` has not yet arrived are much more motivated and therefore stand a great chance at achieving progressive positive growth. The Islamic & Christian fundamentalists who think that their societies were better off centuries ago are destined to cause much mayhem and so are the idiots who want to recreate `Ram Rajya`.

I would much rather be part of a society that is convinced that the best is yet to come and believes in working for it.

Rgds.

sameer #17, ``The point is that certain classes use and propagate mythologies in which they have vested interests. Similarly, in the past, many people belonging to certain classes of Indian people have used Aryan mythology as a noble lineage for their vested interests. ``

I think the fault lies within the people who believe others` claims to nobility or a ``superior`` race. And these people are illiterate, and will remain so unless something is done directly to dispel their gullibility (i hope that`s a word). And these people probably won`t read your article, don`t have access to ``learned`` thinking and reasoning. Correct me if I`m wrong, but I think the rest of us know that, in this day and age, making claims of superior lineage dating back to the BC centuries is just plain dumb and stupid.

I personally never look at a desi person and think ``wow what a snazzy looking guy, maybe he`s Aryan.``

Maybe I`m just naive to the whole ``Aryan propaganda.`` To me, and this is my opinion, it doesn`t seem like a big issue, like Sobia`s big feet weren`t. But she wrote well, and so do you.

You have strong convictions and you put them into writing well.

Hope I didn`t offend you.

sincerely,

scout

Sameer:

Sameer, kudos. Great article.

It is important to know ones history and origins, because the more you know about such things, the more humbling it is. History and historians have a way of always mystiying and glorifying the past - for example, a village hero is talked about as a royal in the following few genererations, after some more time the same person assumes divine characteristics and a few centuries down the line he is worshipped and becomes somebody`s `god`.

I wish people would start understanding that people were always people. We, today are far more advanced in almost all aspects in comparison to our forefathers. It is foolish to believe that somehow people in the past were ethically better or more humane or even lived in utopian societies that are so often glorified by historians. The fact is as we delve deeper - people have always been people - no nobler than any other. So.. `the Syeds` deserve nothing special.

Urstruly,

That isn`t the only massive contradition in

Sameer`s thinking. He claims his work is sooooo

important because Awans, Abbassis Syeds, are

too proud of their Semitic origins for his

liking. Two points:

1. Syeds and the other semetic descent ethnic

groups are not at the top of the Pakistani

social hierarchy.

2. Even if they were, how the hell does ``disproving``

the Aryan Invasion Theory making Syeds etc less

proud of their origins?

Sorry, but Sameer is nothing more than a poser.

Sameer,

You have nothing of to say of any substance.

You flatter yourself greatly if you think you`ve disproved the Aryan Invasion Theory. As Hamidm might say you`re just a martini-swilling tree-hugging perfidious Paki poser.

Satyavardi,

You`re quite correct, Pakistanis have very

little interest in the AIT. It just isn`t

relevent or important for us. Sameer is just

trying to make some Indian friends.

RE: SameerJB

I know that the research that you are doing is academically very important and it should be done as such; but I am not buying what you are trying to sell to Scout. On one hand you abhor the idea of (self-assumed) preference of one race over the other and on the other hand you justify your work with the contention that finding ones origin will define him as a better human being-circular reasioning and contradiction at best. Why cant you just keep it at academic level as it should be?

Aaker, sac, Feroz, Urstruly:

yes, Aryan Invasion should have been a hypothesis; not a theory. Sometime a hypothesis gets elevated to a theory mainly due to the lack of additional evidences over a long period of time. This article is not about any condemnation of indologists or orientalists. I actually believe that Max Muller and other did a reasonable job by proposing a workable hypothesis. In the continuous human persuit of most up-to-date knowledge, hypothesis are transformed into theories and then to laws (in sciences) and believably true in the matters of history. We do not criticize Ptolemy for his cosmos theory (or hypothesis) though we do not believe in it any longer. Similarly, the matters related to the old Indian history must be subject to continuous research and updating without overly crticizing the earlier hypotheses. This piece is only an attempt at updating our understanding of this specialized area of history which is very fascinating to me due to my desire to know as much as I can about myself with regard to history.

It is kind of unfortunate to have two articles on the front page, simultaneously dealing with a highly specialized area but this was not in my control. Aaker, I believe that the articles at “University Ave” are/ should be for information and educational purposes. It is more comforting to me if it is read with learning some tidbits which some may not be familiar with. Number of responses is not even a secondary issue here, because that is damn easy according to The Happy One’s formula.

It is true that being a good human being is of utmost importance but that is not the only concern of humankind. We like to constantly update our thinking and knowledge about a variety of subjects which on the surface do not make a bit difference in human condition or the issues of urgent importance. Yet in time, most knowledge, complements, converge in often mysterious way to benefit us all.

There is great deal of interest in dispelling the notion of Aryan race after the WWII because of this mythology taken too seriously and for all the bad reasons leaving 55 million people dead. I am not suggesting that this was the only reason but it did play a significant role in the development of National Socialist mindset of Nazis ( Feroz, I better not challenge your superior intellect in this area ).

Scout:

Let me try to answer you seperately for raising the question; why should it matter to us?

Many years back, I watched a goat being overrun by a speeding car near Quaid-e-Azam University in Islamabad. Soon the car was surrounded by villagers from nearby, demanding compensation for the lost goat. The occupant of the car, a well groomed guy, tried to apologize but the villager would not budge. But the villagers let him go free without any compenasation only because he told them that he is a Syed from a well known Syed (pir) family. The point is that certain classes use and propagate mythologies in which they have vested interests. Similarly, in the past, many people belonging to certain classes of Indian people have used Aryan mythology as a noble lineage for their vested interests. There are also many groups in Pakistan claiming their noble arabic origins; Abbassies from Murree hills as the descendents from Abu Abbas, Awans from Aun Bin Mohammad, AraiN from Al-Raiya, certain Pashtuns from the lost semitic tribe and so on. Wouldn’t you like to know rationally who you really are? Who were your ancestors? It is very important to know yourself better towards becoming a good human being. This subject is as important, acrtually more so, for Pakistanis, than Indians because we have only miniscule Dravidian speaking people. We are wrong, if we believe in having “noble middle eastern or Aryan” ancestory. The term Aryan denotes to a culture and a family of languages. True, people always migrated throughout history and many times small bands of people ended up culturally and linguistically dominating large masses of people. Have you ever wondered walking through the bazars in Pakistan and watching people; how characteristic features of Persian, Greek, Mongols, Arabs and Turks keep appearing generation after geeration due to the genetic pool. You must have also noticed that other than 10-15 percent of such people, rest practically look alike. You can mistakenly think of Aryan race and rightly think of them as a mixture with mostly native genes and the effects of nature and nurture. Believing in this, as most religions also preach, it helps in treating all as equal human being with respect fro some based on individual’s character, accmplishments and behavior rather than for their noble origins.

Scout I have gone to a great length to justify the importance of this subject and knowledge in general. Believe me it has nothing to do with your feet. You do have a characteristic fine way of communicating and interacting. I hope you will keep using this asset selectively and wisely. Keep your mind open to learning from good knowledge as you have yourself recently alluded to.

Feroze

Can`t you see that by refuting the so called Aryan Invasion Theory, Sameer is trying to do exactly what you seem to suggest? That there was no race such as `Aryan` and the population of the subcontinent is not a mixture of two clashing races, but of a millions of individual family trees? Of a human population made of countless immigrations and emigrations?

Sameer re:2

Rather, I should ask for your forgiveness. It`s an excellent piece of scholarly work, which I should have said in the first place.. I hope I didn`t imply any criticism of the piece itself. Given the delay in submissions and publication, I should have looked at your description of your hopes in that perspective.. plus, of course, you`ve given us fascinating pieces on more contemporary issues.

Cheers, AK

Well written. I will just stay on the sides and look forward to postings from the more knowledgeable on Chowk. Should be very interesting.

Satyavadi

PS: Does seem like Pakistanis are not too interested in AIT, with their absence from this forum too. Also, some of them think refuting the AIT is akin to pleasing the Indians, as Dinosys put it.

Re: Sameer

A fine and detailed article!

Just one question, shouldn`t we move beyond this Aryan-centric debate and just agree that we are the same: human beings!

Who care about the Aryans and where they came from? The six million who died in places with names like Bergen Belsen or Nordhausen or the Germans who just killed an Angolan man, because he was black and they were Neo-Nazis! Instead of debating the Aryan invasion of the sub-continent, it would be better to concentrate on the fact that Indians and Pakistanis are victims of wanna be Aryans in Deutschland and what are we going to do about it!

Germans are issuing a Deutsche Grunen karten (German Green Card) for IT professional to come and work in the Germany! Who wants to go there and get his/her head kicked in? Will you still be debating this topic while you are lying bleeding and dying?

Enough of this Aryan non-sense!

Ciao!

Ciao!

I have a problem with the term AIT. I think it is better if we call it Aryan Invasion Hypothesis; since there is no evidence of any such invasion except some speculations.

The author`s ideas may also be categorized as hypothetical-although the ideas presented are not speculative yet they are only argumentative at best.