Women in India: Are We Better Off?

Jay!

Looks like TNT hurts you a lot.

Does Hinduvta also hurt you or you are typical bigot.

NEWS TO PAKISTANIS,

The following is from dawn

``To silence male chauvinists, I quote from Dr Hameedullah`s Khutbat-ul-Bahawalpur: It is part of history that some one thousand four hundred years ago our Prophet (PBUH) appointed Al Sayyeda Oom-ul-Warqa to be the Imam of a mosque. It is stated that prayer centres had an arrangement as we find in these days only in Malaysia, such that women and men enter mosques and offer prayers in their own section of the mosque.``

This is really news to me that in pakistan women are not allowed in mosques. Way back 25 years ago, all the big mosques in kerala in india had seperate sections for women. Poor pak women, and their ignorance of things in the other nation of TNT.

Re to Tahmad, Macgupta and krashid

Thanks tahmad, MacGupta and Krashid for contributing to the discussion.

Krashid, you are right. I should have made a clear distinction that it was about the people of middle east that I was talking about. An interesting parallel can be drawn between the Golden age of Guptas in India, Arabs in middle east, and Roman Empire in the west. All of them were brought down by the attacks of some barbarian foreigners, Mongols in case of Arabs while Huns in case of Guptas and Romans. But by the time it happened, the empires had seen their climax and were approaching senility and decadence. All three civilisations witnessed a spurt of creative activities in literature, maths and science at their zenith.The question that what led to the rise or fall of a society is very complex and needs to be addressed at various levels. May be some day I attempt to write a monograph on this subject:). I have an intuition that a civilisation seeks to perpetuate the factors that lead to its rise, freezing the social structure and making it static which becomes unable to cope with the changing times. Or it may be the complacence tha creeps in the psyche of rulers and people of a civilisation that makes them unable to perceive the threats that seek to destroy it. Or it may be something else. I know the above statements need some more elucidation but lets leave the task for future.

Cheers

Pankaj #115

You are confusing Arabian Empire, with Central Asian Empire.

Fisrt of all conquest of Arabs were almost complete before their emergence in science and technology. Iran was conquered by the time of Hazarat Umar i.e early seventh century, and so was jerusalem, Baghdad etc. It was the Ummayad dynasty which were very pragmatic people and sort of rulers in Arabia at the time of prophet PBUH and later Abbasids who put the groundwork for learning. Islamic rule has never been quite even in that area at that time. With all the peripheral areas undertaking nominal allegiance and frequent revolts and infighting.

There are many reasons. The Abbasid Caliphate was already decadent when mongols invaded. It was pawn in the hands of Turkish mumlook (slaves). Although, Mongol invasion has contributed, but we have to find other causes, as Mongols had also invaded Europe.

One thing might be that individuality, preservation and propagation of knowledge which lead to renaissance of Europe was lacking and people became more inward looking. As atmosphere of Europe was also very anarchic and not tolerant, so peace is not a factor, nor tolerance.

Until and unless one knows the causes of rise and downfall of a nation or group, one cannot say with certainty what were the causes of downfall of Muslims. One thing is sure, they did not kept abreast of latest development and became inward looking.

Going back to the article by Radhika Chandar:

If you study the history of the west. Any real womens equality/moment came after World War II.

I think this happened because the men were busy fighting the war, the women entered the workforce in large numbers. They started stepping out of the house and gained both social and economic freedom. After the war they were not willing to give up their freedom and the women`s lib movement`s got its mass following.

If south asian women want to change their lot they have to strive for economic freedom first.

Faruk

Pankaj #115: You are right in pointing out that the early muslims not only translated from Greek they also borrowed from India (the venerable zero I believe was taken by Arabs from India, and subsequently handed to Europe). The 500 year muslim rule in Spain was also very enlightened I understand - the term ``blue blood`` that is used to refer to nobility that persists to this day is I understand from those days when the darker skinned Arab Moors ruled in Spain.

You ask: ``What is your opinion about the fall of Arabian civilisation.``

I dont know enough to say for sure. Macgupta #117 points to Mongol invaders, and certainly being over-run by Mongols was no picnic. I think that continuation of absolute kingships (and the constant power struggles) had something to do with it too, as well as the rule of the Turkish Ottomans over Arab lands. On the question of Arab revival, I think most of them are doing very well, thank you, with their oil nowadays :-)

In reply to Pankaj -- one of the factors that played into the loss of earlier dynamism among Muslim societies of the Middle East was the Mongol invasions.

Though eventually most of the Mongol invaders converted to Islam, my understanding of history is that society that emerged from the devastation of the invasions was inward looking, etc.

In the words of one history article on the web :

The Mongol invasions, in fact, were a major cause of the subsequent decline that set in throughout the heartland of the Arab East. In their sweep through the Islamic world the Mongols killed or deported numerous scholars and scientists and destroyed libraries with their irreplaceable works. The result was to wipe out much of the priceless cultural, scientific, and technological legacy that Muslim scholars had been preserving and enlarging for some five hundred years.

-arun gupta

In reply to krashid -- we Hindus personify virtually everything, including the motherland.

However, our distaste for any idea that would split the country is exactly the same as those of the people of the US or Canada, even though these people do not personify their countries.

-arun gupta

Shandana #95

Dear Shandana,

Good answer. Anyway, I may be wrong but maybe we should be speaking of cheerful and happy things and should avoid all this depressing violence stuff :-)?

Just for timepass :-), here is a story about medieval times, Hinduism and women`s lib. which I quite like and which I once heard from my ex-boss, about the origins of the community he belongs to, the Sanketi Brahmins.

It seems a learned woman religious scholar a few hundred years ago had a theological disagreement with the other scholars in her community, which at the time was located somewhere in present-day Kerala. Unwilling to reconcile the differences, she took her band of followers, went up the Cauvery river and established a settlement on its banks somewhere in present-day Karnataka. The descendents of those settlers are present-day Sanketis with their own customs and traditions and language. My exboss told me, the Sanketi language in the present day contains a mix of old Malayalam(the language of Kerala), Kannada, the language of Karnataka and Tamil. Actually while searching on the web for more on this story, which I couldnot find, I see Sanketi listed as under the Tamil `class` of languages.

It would be nice if anyone could provide more authoritative information.
Well, thats womens lib. for you:-).

Sadhana

Re to tahmad

``the early muslims did indeed highly value science and learning, and indeed contributed significantly to the European renaissance ``



You are right on that point. As far as I know anything about the history, Baghdad indeed emerge as the center of learning between 7th to tenth century. Some of the early rulers of Baghdad provided patronage to wise people from all over thw world including a number of sages from India. The early Arabs took gigantic leaps into the field of science,maths and astronomy by assimilating the scientific advances of the other civilisations and contributing their own. Al-

zabr learned ``Beej ganit`` from Indians and translated the works of Aryabhatta, and Brahma gupta. What he passed on to the west is now known as Algebra. Arabs also learnt the number system from Indians, Geometry from Greeks and made their own significant contributions. The list is endless. In short, uncivilised and barbaric societies of Arab and middle east was completely transformed into a progressive civilisation in the course of a couple of centuries.

All this happened because early Arabs were tolerent and liberal and had an unquenchable thirst for knowledge. They welcomed fresh ideas, and interacted with other civilisations with an open mind. Gradually with time, followers of Islam became more rigid and inward looking. Their focus shifted from learning to conquering and forced conversions. Not many significant contributions were made by Arabs between 12th to 18th century. The civilisation became inward looking, closed to fresh ideas and intolerence for the other faiths creeped into it which exists even today. It was repeatedy used to justify the barbaric acts of marauding plunderers and butchers like Taimur, or Ghazanvi. What is your opinion about the fall of Arabian civilisation. Do you think the trend can be reversed in modern society if Muslims become more tolerent of other faiths and focus on learning. Why do you think the spirit of scientific enquiry present in early Arabs vanished gradually.

Cheers

Pankaj #110: You asked

(1) ``What is the relation between Islam, judaism and Christianity.``

Though not claiming to be an expert, and this is clearly a subject that could be extended into a PhD thesis, the essence of the difference as I understand it (based on reading some books on religion) may be explained as follows: All three are part of a family of religions that can be traced back to the teachings of the prophet Abraham (even today, hundreds of millions of muslims all over the world refer the prophet Abraham every day in our standard prayer - or namaz, in Urdu - seeking God`s blessings). All three share the same ``story of man`` - the story of Adam, Eve, and the various prophets. All three share the concept of a kind and just God. The essential differences are in the emphasis, I understand: Judaism came first and introduced the concept of a God who is concerned about mankind, thus replacing the Greco-Roman tradition of gods who were concerned about themselves only (and this had the practical affect of introducing an element of humanity and kindness amidst the cruelties of the Roman empire of those days); Christianity emphasizes the concept of a God who loves mankind, and wishes mankind to show love and charity to one another (and so we have the great Christian tradition of running missionary hospitals and schools); Islam emphasizes the concept of a God who has created a boundless universe and wishes mankind to learn as much about it as possible, and recognizes that it is beyond human capacity to learn everything (and the early muslims did indeed highly value science and learning, and indeed contributed significantly to the European renaissance). One can of course find other differences too (including obvious ones like the fact that muslims consider Jesus a prophet and not the son of God while Muhammed finds no mention in Judaism or Christianity which came earlier), but in terms of providing guidance in our lives, these differences are nothing compared to the powerful similarities between these three as well as all other religions.

Your other question: ``Is there a concept of ``Atma`` ie self or soul or more precisely ``conciousness`` in Islam.(actually ``atma`` is considered to be indestructible and it can only change its body form in Hinduism.)``

Muslims do distinguish between a temporary body and an eternal soul (like virtually all religions). In Islam the soul is tested once in life, while in Hindu tradition of course the soul gets additional chances, via reincarnation. Again, such differences are insignificant, IMHO, and certainly Islam calls for full respect for all religions.

re slink and zahra:

First it was ice on my cranium and now its a typhoon(and out of context too). I might as well go see my shrink at the nearest Starbucks.

Many thanks

-sac

WOMAN`S POWER

Love triangle` case unfolds bizarre story

The Times of India News Service

MANGALORE: The sensational and elusive `love triangle case,` which finally reached a logical conclusion with the arrest of the slippery prime accused in the case, Santhosh alias Santhu, in Pune on September 7, has all the ingredients of a love triangle. In fact, it was a crime committed to get rid of two birds with one stone.

For nearly 90 days, the case was the bane of the Railway Police. Santosh is a small-time rowdy from Gorigudde here.

In the final analysis, the crime was committed by Mahesh (who committed suicide), with the intention of achieving two objectives: one to get rid of his friend Naveen, who was harassing his wife Deepthi, secondly to escape from Deepthi`s harassment.

Railway Police inspector Kalaiah, who had supervised the investigations, told The Times of India that after Mahesh married Deepthi secretly, she was constantly pestering him to take her back to her house. They had their marriage registered using false witnesses in April and their parents were unaware of the marriage.

Firstly, in a most devious way, Mahesh got rid of Naveen and tried to make the world believe that he (Mahesh) had committed suicide. By this he hoped that he could live somewhere under a forged identity and that Deepthi would forget him. But in a curious twist, Deepthi committed suicide, on hearing that her husband Mahesh had died.

On hearing of Deepthi`s death, Mahesh committed suicide in a lodge in Kushalnagar. Unravelling the case, Kalaiah said, according to Santosh, Mahesh had planned the whole crime and he had only lent support.

On how the murder was committed, Kalaiah said, Mahesh paged Naveen (an electrician) to come to Kadri for a small job, and from there he took Naveen to Saripalla. When the three of them, Santosh included, reached the railway tracks at Kulshekar, both Santosh and Mahesh stabbed Naveen. Later, they used thinner to burn his body and discarded it on the tracks. This happened on May 31 this year.

The next day, both the accused went to Mulky on a stolen two-wheeler, dumping the vehicle they used for the crime in a pond. Santosh came back to Mangalore the next day. When he went back to Mulky, Mahesh had fled the place, on realising the police were on his chase. The second vehicle, a scooter, was recovered from a pond at Kottara Chowki and the pager (Naveen`s) from Santosh`s house. The weapon used to murder Naveen was also recovered.

Kalaiah could not explain why Mahesh committed suicide, but guessed he may have feared arrest by the police. In his suicide letter, Mahesh tried to put the blame on Deepthi`s uncle. Kalaiah said, Mahesh was trying to settle an old score and thus divert attention.

Santosh, a carpenter by profession, was working at a furniture factory in Pune, when he was arrested by Sub- inspector Prabhuswamy at Pune.

To Indians!

Can somebody of you answer what is the importace of Bharat Mata as far as religion is concerned.

Because one of the theory presented is we will not tolerate further cutting of Bharat Mata etc. (Although I don`t agree that Bharat Mata is being cut, it is that people of different regions want to have their own way. Geographically it is intact).

Being a Muslim, you know Muslims ruled Spain, and now there is hardly any Muslim there, but it does not affect our psyche strongly, because Muslims want to have their way of life and believe in God whereever they are.

I never understand abhorrence of Indians regarding rights for self determination and splitting of Bharat Mata.

Simply put, what is the role of land ``Akhand Bharat`` which for me is whole of South Asia in your religion.

Tahmad

I also have certain queries about Islam. It will help if you can answer some of them.

1. What is the relation between Islam, judaism and Christianity. How similar and different are they. From whatever I know all these share a similar set of beliefs except who was the final and the greatest messenger of God.



2. Is there a concept of ``Atma`` ie self or soul or more precisely ``conciousness`` in Islam.(actually ``atma`` is considered to be indestructible and it can only change its body form in Hinduism.)

Gotta go. See you.

Cheers

sac,

i was sitting at my computer when this roaring sound filled my ears, the windowpanes rattled, and all the papers blew off my desk. i thought it was a typhoon and nearly rushed off to tie my cat down, then i realised it was just the sound of my first reply whizzing over your head.

shandana