Women in India: Are We Better Off?

woman killed in karo kari case? the `paramour` is also killed.
woman emotionally abused by husband? man traumatized by neurotic mother, rendered incapable of ever having satisfying relationship.
woman burnt to death by husband and in-laws? hapless man on the street beaten to death by angry mob searching for scapegoat.
girl gang raped by eight men?
boy (and 50 friends) sodomized and dissolved by javed iqbal.
woman beaten by husband? boy whipped by angry alcoholic army man father.
if the degree of emotional intensity at a killing is subject to the victims gender does that not mean we are only paying lip service to the ideal of `justice` by sub-ordinating it to our vested interests? as a woman, should i be more angry when a woman is killed than a man? should a liberal male friends outrage also be propotionate to the gender? he`s a man, but he`s shared the same conditioning i have, so he`s see red when he sees `woman` and just a `watery pink` when he sees man.
which is not to suggest there isn`t a problem. the problem is a human one, the issue adressed should be `human beings: killed the animals? now be the animals.`
the current wave of violence sweeping the world has nothing to do with gender. theres no method to this madness. think of the residue of wars, cold wars, almost wars, brutal wars, silent wars, natural disasters, and britney spears, and then tell me there isn`t a tidal wave of anger and frustration sweeping the world.

gumnaam...
what possible benefits could your friendly neighbours derive from reading this article? you make it sound almost like a treasonous act. were you ever in an intelligence agency?

sac..

`women leaders made it because of the men behind them blah`. smart women. didn`t actually have to do anything themselves, got all the publicity, and went into the history books as victims of a patriarchal system rather than as failures themselves. also, think proportions. aren`t that many female politicians, yet quite a few leaders. imagine what`ll happen when more women get involved. except, politics on a macro level just aren`t as interesting. having a firmer grip on the way life works, we realize that size doesn`t matter.

which is, of course, good for a lot of other people.

Zahra #87 I am not defensive on your basic point that women are too often mistreated by men in countries like Pakistan. In fact, one of the most enjoyable sights I have ever seen are women from the poorest segments of society in Bangladesh (which I have visited a few times) stand up and discuss microcredit in a businesslike manner (while hubby stands in the background minding the children). I do question the assertion (which is what you seem to be making) that BB was made PM in order to portray a progressive image for Pakistan: She was voted in first time because people had a genuine sympathy for what she had been through during the hanging of her father. And I dont think the ``elite`` women of Pakistan are any better than the ``elite`` men when it comes to caring for their poorer sisters. There are world-class exceptions like Asma Jehangir, but not enough and luxury-loving BB is not one of them. As for the Feudal Lord, I saw him once and the image of that skinny little guy being a Feudal Lord is still quite funny.

I am amazed at the outlandish conclusion that Radhikaji has arrived at, about Indian women. 80% of them are suffering daily. You seem to think that Indian womens`only claim to fame is their (Indian elite class) nomination to Ms. World titles. Infact India has produced many women excelling in varoius male dominated bastions. And mind you most of them do nome come from elite backgrounds but have made their place through sheer grit and determination. To name just a few -

1.Phoolan Devi - Dacoit turned Member of parliament 2. Kiran Bedi - Indian Police Service 3. Lata Mangeshkar & sisters - Music 4. Bachendri Pal & Santosh Yadav - Mountaineers 5. PT Usha - Sports 5. Medha Patkar - Social Service, 6.Arundhati Roy - Literature. You may also like to recall the contributions made by Razia Sultan, Rani Laxmi Bai, Aruna Asaf Ali, Indira Gandhi and others.All of those mentioned above have made a global impact. Don`t you think you should appreciate the fact that inspite of facing so many odds in a male dominated society Indian women are becoming bolder and emerging stronger.

As for the National Commission for Women, it has been doing a commendable job. Atleast the Indian women in distress have an organisation to turn for help.In any case it is not the job of NCW to ban the Geeta Press literature or those brought out by the Muslim clergy. The concerned state Government /Central Govt Ministry should take it up on thier end. Why don`t you write to them? Moreover do you think with the invasion of satellite and Cable TV into the remotest corners of the country ,the Indian women would care for such literature? They are not so vulnerable. Besides cases of wife bashing are not India specific nor prevalent only in the rural areas. Even the most posh localities are not devoid of this. Cases of men being bobbitted and married women running away with their paramours are on the rise be it a village or a metro.

Now turning to our friendly neighbour country(I would always like to treat it that way), has its own share of women achievers. Benazir Bhutto ( court cases not withstanding), Asma Jehangir ( I admire her a lot), Noorjehan, Reshma,Nazia Hasan, Marina Khan and ofcourse Tehmina Durrani ( I have read her `My feudal lord` twice.But are women in Pakistan as free as in India? Ask yourself Radhikaji.

Even Bangladesh & Srl Lanka boast of women heads of State. Superpower America has been unfortunate on this count.

I think we should stop shedding crocodile tears about the position of Indian women. rather we should think of some long lasting solutions in helping build a society which respects it women. Changes have taken place for the better, but we can`t expect overnight solutions. Lets be optimistic and work towards it.

Also learn to appreciate the achievements made by Indian women. I hope in future u wont write articles just to please our friendly neighbours.

TAhmed #80

You are right on point.

I am in a profession where I come across this society in intimate details.

Women/ girl friend beating, influence of alcohol, short term relationship etc.

Why a person should adopt a self destructive behaviour.

Mrs. Rashid trust me and knows, I will go with my children. We are trying hard to continue, from where our parents left us.

Not much choice for a poor egotist person.

Tahmed:
[Please care to read the last sentence in its entirety below]

In other words, leave the emotions for (poor)women :-)

Take Care

Mr. Ahmed:

Please go back and read the para on the mentioned article. You are being defensive! I never liked Benazir. I never thought that she happened to use her mind anywhere, be it her marriage, her career, her judgements, prudence and above all vision. Besides all that, I will always & always give her a standing ovation for dealing with the men in our society.I am just pointing out a dilemma that may or may not exist when it comes to a woman ruling a 3rd world developing country. I hope I am clear ?

Lastly, your example[US-PM vs Pak-PM] was the exact point grilled, roasted and then savored with harsh critque in the paper. I am sorry, but I am not at all convinced on your argument, with regards to, the above thought. It was a typical typical escape--counter argument with no weight.

I think sometimes it is better to step back and analyze rationally than emotionally. In others, leave the emotions for (poor)women :-)

Take Care

re Zahra #83:

So Khar Sahib took your classmate as his ``10th or 11th`` wife as you submitted and was mistreated. Pray tell me what was your classmate thinking? Does a feudal change her/his spots the ``10th or 11th`` time around or was it the eternal feminine insistence on `reforming` the incorrigible that led to her sorry end?

And did you bother to stop and think about all these south Asian women leaders and the only reason they ended up where they were because of the men in their families? Easy come easy go!!

later

-sac

zahra #83 I think the reason (poor) women continued to suffer during BBs time was due to BBs lack of concern for them, and it is not fair to blame Pakistani men for not letting BB rule (as the NYT article you mention seems to say). What the NYT article perhaps forgot to mention was that in the US even today it is unthinkable for a woman to be elected President. Does it blame it on the incompetence of US women or on attitudes of the voters here?

Poster # 61:

I wanted to pick on this post as it had quite a few deep thought provoking points in its contents.

The underlying message sounded so touching that Bae`Ikhtiyaa`r one can become emotional hearing about the `Muzalim`, men go through.[Tears]

``There are a lot of males who live a miserable life harassed by their womanfolk in India( I guess in Pakistan too).``

I think it is a little unfair on your behalf to assume -- you should ask the ones on board and get a voting before you declare, `you assume.`

``Waise I am ready to be tortured by ``katil ada`` of ``hasina`` anyday.``

Your above sentence can be construed in many ways, please clarify the applicable one:

a) Are you saying that you want to be among those men who are mistreated by women ?

Or

b) You are saying that you would like to be mistreated and be able to relate your story to the above mentioned male support groups ?

Thanks

(Comments)Part II

NY Times had an excellent article on Women PMs of the 3rd world countries, few years back. It was the time when Benazir was in power. The article ripped apart the third world countries trying to portray a false image of developed and progressive nations by electing women PMs. The false image was discussed, argued and concluded to add ‘ZERO Value’ to the growth and economy of these countries. None of these women cared to pursue the causes of fellow womenfolk. No one cared whether the poor women in the villages died of health problems during childbirth or barely survived. No one cared about those young women who had no way of pursuing higher education in their town/village. It was a grilling article and South eAST Asia deserved the wrath! I guess it is the damn irony, whenever a woman is in power, she is the most powerless person in our society and that is why: Behind every great man, there is a woman and not vice versa. [Reading out the quote from my bookmark – Shall I discard it or keep it? Still deciding……].

Few years back, on a trip to back home--I happened to dine with one of Ammi’s old colleague from college. The lady was a politician, hailing from a feudal breed. It was a reunion after 30 years, therefore the guests were Humaa` Tun Gosh—listening to her accomplishments(Ahem Ahem). Her views on women’s education were amazingly beautiful.[Thumbs Down] She’d rather have ignorant women in her constituency than push them for education. It was preferred to have those women as servants and maids than learning Alif, Bae’ Pae’ [Every time I think of this person, I cannot resist my dislike and disgust]

None of the women who came into power in Pakistan……Benazir, Abida Hussain and the others, cared to focus on women`s education and health. I think, for them, it was such a major achievement to be the PM or in Senate/National Assembly – that they had it! Or probably they had other problems: dealing with uncouth and uncivilized men and could not find time to focus on above-mentioned petty matters.
May be!
Or
May be not! Different Priorities!

On another note, the author has talked about a certain class of women who are maltreated and I am guessing her story revolves around women from lower or middle class. I feel like stating some interesting cases from Iss Paa’r[Enough of Uss Paa’r]

a) What about the maltreatment of the `elite – an insult to the word--elite` class?

b) Secondly, do you think women who have the education and the power to stand on their own, never come across maltreatment?

How many times Benazir Bhutto was mistreated by her `chivalrous` husband? This gallant & chivalrous man was famous for hitting his wife, an acting PM, in public. This incidence caught the attention of foreign media and was written in black and white. What was that ?

Has anyone cared to read the story—My Feudal Lord? What is Tehmina Durrani saying? I am sure she never quoted any excerpts from my beloved Punjabi Poet, Waris Shah’s – Heer. If she did, I must have missed them as I threw the book aside after reading few excerpts. The Feudal Lord’s 10th or 11th wife [?] was my batch-mate in Kinnaird, Lahore. The girl was younger than the Feudal Lord’s daughters. Last I heard, she was also mistreated and was just an addition to the Harem.

In short, one cannot even deduce that maltreatment happens in a certain class or group. I think the inflicters can be from any class – they are just mentally sick and insecure `men.`

Probably we need more `female-doctors` to inject the medicine (thishhhhhh) slowly and steadily?! [Like a Pink Panther….Teenoa’n Teenao’n Teenao’n Teeneao’n]Swoosh Swoosh!!!!!!in the heads of the Bae`maa`r Hazraa`t ?

Any Takers ? I meanT female-doctors! ?

Some of the people are trying to disown Manu as hindu religious scripture. Well they are wrong. Check out what Swami Harshananda (well known Hindu Scholar) is saying about Manu. He accepts Manu as Hindu religious scripture. Please check out his website at

http://hindubooks.org/hinduqa/ch1.htm

Check out answer to question number 5.

Asfand Siddiqui

Sacramento CA

krashid #62 you write ``Why I would marry a woman and stick to her, when 100`s are available and ready.``

I assume that this was written behind closed doors to ensure that Mrs. krashid does not by chance learn about your private fantasies.

You wrote,

``Some of these books are titled as `Musalman Biwi` and `Mian Biwi Ke Haqooq`. One of these books even has a chapter, `Right to Batter Wife` which reads, ``husband may use the stick to beat the wife but he should avoid hitting her on the face or cause deep scar.`` ``

True but only half. There are preconditions to this rule. Please check Surah Nisa (Quran) about the complete truth.

You also wrote

``The authors of such literature quote scriptures after scriptures to convey the message that a woman must treat her husband as master and herself as slave.``

Not True. Previlages and responsibilities go hand in hand. Please check husband`s responsibilities before making any allegations to Islam.

Asfand Siddiqui

Sacramento California

Your article makes some very interesting points. Our desi community always seems to be in denial of real issues and real problems, even real people! Like your example of the Miss World/Universe beauty pageants illustrates, our people always seem to focus on the appearance of perfection and status in India. Very few people think of the destitute and the suffering. Our community is unfortunately getting to the point where it`s all just a rat race to see who can achieve status and the esteem of the rest of the community, when no one gives a damn anymore about the rest of the community.

Radhika,while I cannot fully understand the repression that women suffer (being of the opp. sex) I do want you to consider an upside to this situation.

Perhaps a little background before I get into it.

I was educated in a liberal environment where I learnt that women and men should be treated equal.

With this prespective I went to the US for my undergrad and looked at their society closely.

To make a long story short, I realised that in socities where both sexes are equal, the institute of marriage weakens considerably. When two individuals start living together as husband and wife then over time they are bound to have differences of opinion. Now they compromise of many of these (as a team) until they reach a situation where none are willing to bugde. In such matters (since society here has removed the ``pecking order`` (if you will) ) the only recourse let if divorce.

Another reason why women in India have always had to compromise is due to living in joint families. In such cases if the women wants her way she has to change not only her husband but all the other family members also... which causes discorts.

The way I view the situation, i think women in India have always scraficied their own rights for the benefit of the family/society. For this I am ever grateful.

However, in doing so they end up killing their own desires/wants/needs and end up being unhappy.

But the grass in not much greener on the other side. Women here, value their own independence over anything and everything. hence the reason why the us has over 50% divorce rate. And what happens in the end... ? Broken families, step dads, mom`s boyfrinds and ultimately a miserable exsistance for all involved.

My belief is that women in the Eastern cultures choose to keep thier families above their own individuality and the result of that is that family life and structure in the east is much more stable and secure for the children.

My contention does not imply that men should be allowed to become wife beaters or burners. Just that there should be a some structure in place, where irreconcilable issues do not end up in divorce and the instution of marriage is somehow saved.

Urstrly, Rsaxena, fairdinkum and others, I look fwd to your rebuttals.

AD

I have a question for the author. One gets a sense from recent articles in the Indian press by prominent figures in the Indian `womens` movement, that there is a slight :-) turf tussle going on, ideologically.

On one side are those who are
a. the `traditional`(in terms of how long they have been active) activists, whose aims are allied to `post-industrialized dismantling of all traditional social structures since they are all unambiguously repressive in tendency`. The activities of these activists has been (in my view, thankfully)tempered with the reality that Indian society is anything but post-industrial and that dismantling tradition is not so simple or effective in practical terms.

There are others
b.those that feel we should be selective in what we aim to dismantle, we should be aware of the illeffects of the `other` approach, too and a bit more introspective and more informed about the utility or otherwise of social traditions.

c. maybe very minor players, but of nuisance value : the saffron-tinged obscurantists who say that every single social tradition must be preserved in all its glory nevertheless.

I get a feeling b and c get confused in the fight of labels(which I avoided by not using any :-)), a and b have basically interpersonal or political problems between them(which is sad since their end objective is essentially the same, the empowerment of Indian women)

The question is, is this reading of the `situation` correct? Sorry for the layman`s terminology, if I wasn`t ignorant I wouldn`t be asking, right? I hope to get an informed, unemotional and ideologically unbiased answer.

Sadhana