The Burden of Virginity
A Bismil October 15, 2000
#132 Posted by Lawyer2B on December 12, 2003 4:30:31 pm
Iv been in a situation like that. I found out that the girl I loved, and wanted to marry had lost her virginity at 13 (to a unspecified person), I also found out that once she lost it, she never looked back and she`d been `livin it up` so to speak. She`d lost it to an unknown (to me) guy, and then dumped him and slept with her khalas son (at 14). She then dumped her khalas son when she met me (I didnt know about this, as he lived in another city), poor guy had quite fallen for her too (she told him her brother had raped her,[ shocking, but totally untrue], and thats why she wasnt a virgin). I only found out a couple of years after we`d been going out, and she wasnt the one who told me. I had a hell of a time peicing it all together, but when I was done, it painted a very nasty picture. I dumped her the morning after the night I found out, she denyed it all to the end, as one would expect, even when I gave her concrete evidence. That kind of pisses a guy off. No one likes to be taken for a ride, but looking back now I dont have any real regrets. She was what she was, and I was what I was. If she had `issues` it was her loss, not mine. Im currently in the process of getting involved with another girl who I know is not a virgin, it makes me wary, but the fact that she told me well in advance, before I`d developed any feelings, goes in her favour.
When a woman tells her husband on her wedding night, you cant expect a guy to react well, you`v put him in a tough position and he will lash out, and odds are it will end in divorce. But when you give a guy a choice, you lay out what you are before him, and you allow him to decide if he wants anythin to do with you, you stand a better chance in the long run. True guys B|tch, guys will kill your rep, etc etc, but thats the chance you take when you chose to pop your cherry. In our society you cant have it all. Virginity attracts a premium, and if you give it up, you give up that premium. That might not be how it should be, but it is how it is. I can respect somone who`s lost their virginity, but I refuse to respect somone who lies about it to me, or who only tells me when I have no real choices.
When a woman tells her husband on her wedding night, you cant expect a guy to react well, you`v put him in a tough position and he will lash out, and odds are it will end in divorce. But when you give a guy a choice, you lay out what you are before him, and you allow him to decide if he wants anythin to do with you, you stand a better chance in the long run. True guys B|tch, guys will kill your rep, etc etc, but thats the chance you take when you chose to pop your cherry. In our society you cant have it all. Virginity attracts a premium, and if you give it up, you give up that premium. That might not be how it should be, but it is how it is. I can respect somone who`s lost their virginity, but I refuse to respect somone who lies about it to me, or who only tells me when I have no real choices.
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#131 Posted by Lawyer2B on December 12, 2003 4:30:31 pm
Iv been in a situation like that. I found out that the girl I loved, and wanted to marry had lost her virginity at 13 (to a unspecified person), I also found out that once she lost it, she never looked back and she`d been `livin it up` so to speak. She`d lost it to an unknown (to me) guy, and then dumped him and slept with her khalas son (at 14). She then dumped her khalas son when she met me (I didnt know about this, as he lived in another city), poor guy had quite fallen for her too (she told him her brother had raped her,[ shocking, but totally untrue], and thats why she wasnt a virgin). I only found out a couple of years after we`d been going out, and she wasnt the one who told me. I had a hell of a time peicing it all together, but when I was done, it painted a very nasty picture. I dumped her the morning after the night I found out, she denyed it all to the end, as one would expect, even when I gave her concrete evidence. That kind of pisses a guy off. No one likes to be taken for a ride, but looking back now I dont have any real regrets. She was what she was, and I was what I was. If she had `issues` it was her loss, not mine. Im currently in the process of getting involved with another girl who I know is not a virgin, it makes me wary, but the fact that she told me well in advance, before I`d developed any feelings, goes in her favour.
When a woman tells her husband on her wedding night, you cant expect a guy to react well, you`v put him in a tough position and he will lash out, and odds are it will end in divorce. But when you give a guy a choice, you lay out what you are before him, and you allow him to decide if he wants anythin to do with you, you stand a better chance in the long run. True guys B|tch, guys will kill your rep, etc etc, but thats the chance you take when you chose to pop your cherry. In our society you cant have it all. Virginity attracts a premium, and if you give it up, you give up that premium. That might not be how it should be, but it is how it is. I can respect somone who`s lost their virginity, but I refuse to respect somone who lies about it to me, or who only tells me when I have no real choices.
When a woman tells her husband on her wedding night, you cant expect a guy to react well, you`v put him in a tough position and he will lash out, and odds are it will end in divorce. But when you give a guy a choice, you lay out what you are before him, and you allow him to decide if he wants anythin to do with you, you stand a better chance in the long run. True guys B|tch, guys will kill your rep, etc etc, but thats the chance you take when you chose to pop your cherry. In our society you cant have it all. Virginity attracts a premium, and if you give it up, you give up that premium. That might not be how it should be, but it is how it is. I can respect somone who`s lost their virginity, but I refuse to respect somone who lies about it to me, or who only tells me when I have no real choices.
#130 Posted by cutandpaste on March 28, 2002 11:51:56 am
New Translation Puts `Kamasutra` in new Light
Wed Mar 27,12:32 PM ET
By JILL LAWLESS, Associated Press Writer
LONDON - More than 1,700 years after it was completed by an enigmatic Indian scribe, the ``Kamasutra`` is among the most famous Hindu books ever written — and, many believe, the most misunderstood.
Most who have encountered the book recall it as a do-it-yourself sex manual, an eye-opening encyclopedia of acrobatic positions.
Academics hope a frank new translation will help the ``Kamasutra`` — which means ``a treatise on desire`` — shake its saucy reputation and regain its status as a literary classic.
``It`s by far the most complete and interesting work about sexual psychology that has been written — a cross between `The Joy of Sex` and `Lady Chatterly`s Lover,``` said Wendy Doniger, who translated the book from the original Sanskrit with psychoanalyst Sudhir Kakar.
``The great misconception is that it is about the positions, which is the silliest part of the book, and a very short part of the book,`` she added.
``Kamasutra`` was released today in Britain and Oxford University Press will hit bookstores in the United States in June.
Written probably in 3rd-century Northern India by Vatsyayana Mallanaga, ``Kamasutra`` catalogs sexual positions, enumerates the varieties of kissing and expounds on the amorous role of scratching and biting.
But it also tells readers how to flirt, conduct a lovers` quarrel, seduce someone else`s spouse and blend potions to stimulate a sagging libido.
It even advises a woman on ways to dump an unwanted lover: ``She talks about things he does not know about. She shows no amazement, but only contempt, for the things he does know about. She punctures his pride.``
With its aphoristic advice on attracting, satisfying, keeping and shedding a partner, the book is often more ``Sex in the City`` than sex manual.
``It is always said to be a book about man`s manipulation of women, but a great deal of it is about women`s manipulation of men,`` Doniger says. ``It`s really about power, politics and sex.``
Doniger, who teaches the history of religion at the University of Chicago, says the ``Kamasutra`` has been ill-served by its best-known English translation, completed in 1883 by British writer-explorer Sir Richard Burton.
Doniger says Burton`s language is ``Victorian and flowery,`` while the original Sanskrit is direct and robust.
``The Kamasutra is punchy, Hemingwayesque — `he touches her here, she bites him there,``` Doniger said.
``Burton uses the Hindu words `lingam` and `yoni` to refer to the sexual organs. These words are not in the original text. ... Burton takes all the ambiguity out, and makes it sound like some weird `Orientalist` thing, whereas the book is about us.``
The new Oxford Classics edition is noticeably more direct than its Victorian predecessor. What Burton calls ``supported congress,`` the new book terms ``sex standing up.``
The two editions agree, however, on the ``lotus`` position and the gymnastic embrace called ``splitting the bamboo.``
That kind of exotic eroticism has made ``Kamasutra`` the bane of generations of parents and teachers, and the book remains controversial. Indian-born director Mira Nair`s 1996 film, ``Kamasutra — a Tale of Love,`` loosely based on the book, was stalled for more than a year by Indian censors before finally being screened.
Doniger says the book`s reputation has obscured its value as a work of literature. She says it can be read as a play in seven acts, following its male and female protagonists from seduction through separation, and as an idealized portrait of a sophisticated, monied society.
``No one in this book ever goes to the shop, no one ever goes to see his mother. All you do all day is plan for the night and get ready for it,`` she said. ``Its like a Playboy Mansion life.
``Training parrots and mynah birds to talk and going to cockfights, what sort of food and liquor to serve at a party — the life of pleasure is beautifully evoked. But a lot of it is about men and women in ways that have not changed.
``It`s an enormously complicated book on the psychology of sex, the psychology of erotic arousal.``
And those illustrations — they were added much later.
``They`re an afterthought,`` Doniger said. ``A very famous afterthought.``
___
On the Net:
Oxford University Press: http://www.oup.co.uk/isbn/0-19-280270-4
Wed Mar 27,12:32 PM ET
By JILL LAWLESS, Associated Press Writer
LONDON - More than 1,700 years after it was completed by an enigmatic Indian scribe, the ``Kamasutra`` is among the most famous Hindu books ever written — and, many believe, the most misunderstood.
Most who have encountered the book recall it as a do-it-yourself sex manual, an eye-opening encyclopedia of acrobatic positions.
Academics hope a frank new translation will help the ``Kamasutra`` — which means ``a treatise on desire`` — shake its saucy reputation and regain its status as a literary classic.
``It`s by far the most complete and interesting work about sexual psychology that has been written — a cross between `The Joy of Sex` and `Lady Chatterly`s Lover,``` said Wendy Doniger, who translated the book from the original Sanskrit with psychoanalyst Sudhir Kakar.
``The great misconception is that it is about the positions, which is the silliest part of the book, and a very short part of the book,`` she added.
``Kamasutra`` was released today in Britain and Oxford University Press will hit bookstores in the United States in June.
Written probably in 3rd-century Northern India by Vatsyayana Mallanaga, ``Kamasutra`` catalogs sexual positions, enumerates the varieties of kissing and expounds on the amorous role of scratching and biting.
But it also tells readers how to flirt, conduct a lovers` quarrel, seduce someone else`s spouse and blend potions to stimulate a sagging libido.
It even advises a woman on ways to dump an unwanted lover: ``She talks about things he does not know about. She shows no amazement, but only contempt, for the things he does know about. She punctures his pride.``
With its aphoristic advice on attracting, satisfying, keeping and shedding a partner, the book is often more ``Sex in the City`` than sex manual.
``It is always said to be a book about man`s manipulation of women, but a great deal of it is about women`s manipulation of men,`` Doniger says. ``It`s really about power, politics and sex.``
Doniger, who teaches the history of religion at the University of Chicago, says the ``Kamasutra`` has been ill-served by its best-known English translation, completed in 1883 by British writer-explorer Sir Richard Burton.
Doniger says Burton`s language is ``Victorian and flowery,`` while the original Sanskrit is direct and robust.
``The Kamasutra is punchy, Hemingwayesque — `he touches her here, she bites him there,``` Doniger said.
``Burton uses the Hindu words `lingam` and `yoni` to refer to the sexual organs. These words are not in the original text. ... Burton takes all the ambiguity out, and makes it sound like some weird `Orientalist` thing, whereas the book is about us.``
The new Oxford Classics edition is noticeably more direct than its Victorian predecessor. What Burton calls ``supported congress,`` the new book terms ``sex standing up.``
The two editions agree, however, on the ``lotus`` position and the gymnastic embrace called ``splitting the bamboo.``
That kind of exotic eroticism has made ``Kamasutra`` the bane of generations of parents and teachers, and the book remains controversial. Indian-born director Mira Nair`s 1996 film, ``Kamasutra — a Tale of Love,`` loosely based on the book, was stalled for more than a year by Indian censors before finally being screened.
Doniger says the book`s reputation has obscured its value as a work of literature. She says it can be read as a play in seven acts, following its male and female protagonists from seduction through separation, and as an idealized portrait of a sophisticated, monied society.
``No one in this book ever goes to the shop, no one ever goes to see his mother. All you do all day is plan for the night and get ready for it,`` she said. ``Its like a Playboy Mansion life.
``Training parrots and mynah birds to talk and going to cockfights, what sort of food and liquor to serve at a party — the life of pleasure is beautifully evoked. But a lot of it is about men and women in ways that have not changed.
``It`s an enormously complicated book on the psychology of sex, the psychology of erotic arousal.``
And those illustrations — they were added much later.
``They`re an afterthought,`` Doniger said. ``A very famous afterthought.``
___
On the Net:
Oxford University Press: http://www.oup.co.uk/isbn/0-19-280270-4
#129 Posted by arshadaltaf on August 14, 2001 4:54:31 pm
It would make me upset and may be wary for sometime but I will live and may even respect the girl for her honesty.
#128 Posted by angelamine1 on January 8, 2001 7:39:55 pm
actually virginity is not such a big thing. i would love my bride to be experienced
#127 Posted by samuel on December 29, 2000 1:56:34 pm
Bismal,
just saw your article. That`s an interesting question, what would ``we men`` do if we were found out our respective wives were no virgins.
Hmm.. well, I do`nt know, I have`nt been in that situation yet, only for the fact that I`m yet to wed, however, upon reflex and perhaps some rage she probably won`t get lucky that night.. :( -
On second thoughts, one could perhaps pull out the semi-automatic, and splatter one`s brain. The underlying thought and meaning to this particular phrase definitely carries a pun unto it. Read it how you may!! :)
But, from what I understand of my sense of humour, I`d give it a second thought perhaps, worry about it a little, but then again, I decided to marry this person for who she is, and what she means to me then and there. Not for what her past was/is, what she may or may not have done.
It would be unfair to hold anything of the past against her. Now and the tomrrow has always counted more in my books, then yesterday and the past.
Cheers
just saw your article. That`s an interesting question, what would ``we men`` do if we were found out our respective wives were no virgins.
Hmm.. well, I do`nt know, I have`nt been in that situation yet, only for the fact that I`m yet to wed, however, upon reflex and perhaps some rage she probably won`t get lucky that night.. :( -
On second thoughts, one could perhaps pull out the semi-automatic, and splatter one`s brain. The underlying thought and meaning to this particular phrase definitely carries a pun unto it. Read it how you may!! :)
But, from what I understand of my sense of humour, I`d give it a second thought perhaps, worry about it a little, but then again, I decided to marry this person for who she is, and what she means to me then and there. Not for what her past was/is, what she may or may not have done.
It would be unfair to hold anything of the past against her. Now and the tomrrow has always counted more in my books, then yesterday and the past.
Cheers
#126 Posted by arsniper on November 19, 2000 9:17:18 pm
A nicely written piece - I should say as the author had me waiting for the bad news till the end. Thank God there was none.
Every parent tells their child similar stories to keep them on track. Treats and consciences are the biggest motivator to stay away from bad.
However there was an added pincher in my case.
I was taught there are four kind of people in the world. When offered bad they react differently:
The first kind says no I won`t do this - I will get caught.
The second, says my parents told me not do this
The third says, my parents will be hurt if they find out.
The fourth says, I will not do this because this is wrong.
As for the authors question asking men how would they feel? While I am not an authority to speak on all men of the world`s behalf, but I know I will be hurt, that while I guarded and protected myself the one I love didn`t.
Certain things in life we should guard, protect and cherish them to share with our solemates. That is what integrity, morality, and most of all Islam demands from us.
Yours Truly
Ahmed
Every parent tells their child similar stories to keep them on track. Treats and consciences are the biggest motivator to stay away from bad.
However there was an added pincher in my case.
I was taught there are four kind of people in the world. When offered bad they react differently:
The first kind says no I won`t do this - I will get caught.
The second, says my parents told me not do this
The third says, my parents will be hurt if they find out.
The fourth says, I will not do this because this is wrong.
As for the authors question asking men how would they feel? While I am not an authority to speak on all men of the world`s behalf, but I know I will be hurt, that while I guarded and protected myself the one I love didn`t.
Certain things in life we should guard, protect and cherish them to share with our solemates. That is what integrity, morality, and most of all Islam demands from us.
Yours Truly
Ahmed
#125 Posted by savagely savvy on November 17, 2000 12:43:58 am
I`d be, ``cool, neither am I...lets just get it on baby``
#124 Posted by Alison judge on November 16, 2000 10:25:35 am
Dear A Bismil,
What a courageous and candid article, one that I`m sure strikes a chord with many readers. As someone who grew up in another culture but with similar pressures ( I am a pracicing Roman Catholic basd in the UK) I could relate deeply to much of what you were saying.
Ultimately this issue is, I believe, for you and you alone to have an opinion about. Any man who would think ``differently`` having discovered that the woman in his life has a sexual history is not a man to build a lie together with. Love, however it happens needs to be unconditional. A lifetime partnership needs to be strong, and double standards just don`t have space in such a bond.
Still trying to live out to the letter of my own faith the precepts that have been set out for me, in the face of such challenges as corrupt (and human!) priests and being viewed as essentially inferior or less pure for my gender by a sad minority of such clerics. That`s a challenge! But I wish you evrey happiness on your journey through life and am heartened by your thoughts on the topic. Ultimately, be true to yourself, discover yourself and treasure yourself. God willing the man in your life will delight in treasuring you, too.
With warmest wishes and salaams,
Alison Judge
What a courageous and candid article, one that I`m sure strikes a chord with many readers. As someone who grew up in another culture but with similar pressures ( I am a pracicing Roman Catholic basd in the UK) I could relate deeply to much of what you were saying.
Ultimately this issue is, I believe, for you and you alone to have an opinion about. Any man who would think ``differently`` having discovered that the woman in his life has a sexual history is not a man to build a lie together with. Love, however it happens needs to be unconditional. A lifetime partnership needs to be strong, and double standards just don`t have space in such a bond.
Still trying to live out to the letter of my own faith the precepts that have been set out for me, in the face of such challenges as corrupt (and human!) priests and being viewed as essentially inferior or less pure for my gender by a sad minority of such clerics. That`s a challenge! But I wish you evrey happiness on your journey through life and am heartened by your thoughts on the topic. Ultimately, be true to yourself, discover yourself and treasure yourself. God willing the man in your life will delight in treasuring you, too.
With warmest wishes and salaams,
Alison Judge
#123 Posted by krashid on November 12, 2000 10:53:12 am
Ziddi #
Too Ziddi.
The first point i.e matter of trust is most important.
Too Ziddi.
The first point i.e matter of trust is most important.
#122 Posted by ziddi on November 11, 2000 4:45:19 pm
In reply to your question I have a lot to say.
The thing is my reaction would depend on the situation.
Marriage first of all is a journey in which you need someone whom you can trust. The first question ,therefore , I would ask my wife would be why she did not confide in me earlier?
why did she not come straight out and tell me honestly before we were married.
Secondly , I have been raised in Pakistan as a Muslim and I have been fed the same principles that you seem to have gotten but without the hindee movie dialogues!....
more or less implying the same. It was not till i was about 18 that i realized i could get away with it. HOWEVER I CHOSE NOT TO! I have tried to be a decent guy and keep myself for my wife (since thats the term you have used!).
I have been in the states for about 4 years all alone and have been doing well. I have no financial problems I just finished my BBA/MIS and am working , my point being getting laid is not that difficult. I have chosen not to follow that path which many of my other friends have. My roomate who is from Karachi thinks its time for moj mastee and who cares bout a wife that is still a milestone yet to come. You will not believe how many times i am mocked by other friends for not being into it. I dont go clubbing
or dating. Like you said i use the same formula
look but do not talk/touch and that helps me stay focussed.
Well, my answer I guess is If i could retain my virginity why could she not. In the event of the following answers i would be willing to look it over i.e in the event that she was raped or had been in a marriage earlier. However, even in that case i had a right to know.
You tell me how you would feel if the guy you ended up marrying told you he had been married or been with a woman before?
I dont know what destiny has in store for me but i just hope my wife is someone who has the guts to confide in me and come out in the open with me.
It should be my choice to do what i believe is right not hers. If i have stayed a virgin inspite of having every opportunity in the world i would expect the same from the girl who is to be my wife. I have a right to know what she has been upto. If she chose to do it with someone she made a choice and did what you believed was right. Dont i deserve the right to choose ??
So you tell me do i deserve to be lied to??
should i live with someone who has lied to me from the first day we met. There is always enough time to mention ones past and give the other person a choice.
I have been in love and have every intention of telling my wife to be before we actually get hitched that i was in love with someone, and mind u it was not physical at all. NOTHING PHYSICAL, it was over before it started!.....
So if i can retain my virginity and respect my wife and the institution of marriage and be a Muslim why cant a girl from the same culture have done the same.
Yes , however, if i marry a non muslim who has been with other before me. I would be ok with that because when she becomes a Muslim as per my religion she is as clean as a new born and her life has just begun. As for those of you who think it is biggoted of me to expect someone to convert their religion , well I am not leaving mine and kids get screwed up in families where parents practice and preach diff. believes.
Anyways, I hope this answers your question.I would definately like to hear more from you.
ZIDDI
#121 Posted by husseinzahid on November 1, 2000 5:20:17 am
I won`t care much. I think that her past is History. And now she is with me and that all it matters.
#120 Posted by Cheema on November 1, 2000 2:00:07 am
It was a good article. Besides religion, I think there is a big reason in abstaining from premarital and extramarital sex, and that is once confidence of a spouse is destroyed stability of family life is also destroyed. In a sexually promiscuous society divorce rate is high, and the whole environment of parental love and respect for elders is missing.
There have been numerous examples of feminists protesting against exploitation of marriage and living unmarried (yet having boy friends) all their life, in the end most complain of a sense of unfulfilment in life. Sex isn`t everything. Children and joys of family life are the reasons for living in the first place. And a stable family life ensures these.
Sexual restraint teaches a lot of things, and is not necessarily advocated by religion, Stoics practiced it although they were non believers, socialist philosophers also criticize free sex society and commercialization of woman.
There have been numerous examples of feminists protesting against exploitation of marriage and living unmarried (yet having boy friends) all their life, in the end most complain of a sense of unfulfilment in life. Sex isn`t everything. Children and joys of family life are the reasons for living in the first place. And a stable family life ensures these.
Sexual restraint teaches a lot of things, and is not necessarily advocated by religion, Stoics practiced it although they were non believers, socialist philosophers also criticize free sex society and commercialization of woman.
#119 Posted by Asim on November 1, 2000 2:00:07 am
``i am not worried how good others are, because i am so confeident in my abilities, that i am sure i can make it happen for whomever i`m with.``Yaar,
Dear Fellow,
You are not the only one living in a fool`s paradise. Apparently all men think and solemnly believe in this ``falsehood``, regardless of colour, creed, class. You have to agree some of them might be playing with the trutj.
Who am I? I am just your average, horny, devil`s advocate.
Asim :)
Dear Fellow,
You are not the only one living in a fool`s paradise. Apparently all men think and solemnly believe in this ``falsehood``, regardless of colour, creed, class. You have to agree some of them might be playing with the trutj.
Who am I? I am just your average, horny, devil`s advocate.
Asim :)
#117 Posted by ramyssysix on October 31, 2000 11:35:05 am
My name is Muhammad Waqar Saleem and I am an Electrical Engineer from Pakistan.
Well, the answer to the question that you have asked depends upon the approach that one has towards his life,the rules or the code that one follows.
If you talk about me or other guys of my sort, then the answer is that ``if it is the case with the bride then it really is a serious problem``. Infact, I would call it dishonesty and a moral weakness on the bride`s part.
The rules that I follow for living, tell me a strict way to deal with the problem and I certainly will deal with it that way. I am talking about my religion, Islam, that always has a natural and a most sensible way of approaching a problem.
Well, the answer to the question that you have asked depends upon the approach that one has towards his life,the rules or the code that one follows.
If you talk about me or other guys of my sort, then the answer is that ``if it is the case with the bride then it really is a serious problem``. Infact, I would call it dishonesty and a moral weakness on the bride`s part.
The rules that I follow for living, tell me a strict way to deal with the problem and I certainly will deal with it that way. I am talking about my religion, Islam, that always has a natural and a most sensible way of approaching a problem.
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