Aap Amrika Main Hotay Hain?? (Do You Live In America)

Hi incognita

Nice to see you. It is good to criticise others, say temporal, but one should first look at oneself before doing so. Moreover nothing constructive can ever be achieved the way you do so ie. personally attacking others rather than discuss the issues. If your purpose was more noble,say to make the other person aware of your observations about him I am sure it could have been done in a much better manner. You might like to bash me too for extending unsolicited advice or declare me another Pak jihadi behind the veil of internet, but for your info, I am not. I expect some more mature writings from you in future.

Sincerely

I agree with you. Truly, a well written article. However, you forgot to mention ``aap Amrika mein khana kaise khate hai?`` and ``aap fees kitni dete hai?`` My relatives are the most annoying of all. I know believe that it just doesn`t happen to me.

People tell my father ``you have made a mistake, your son will never return``-yet they themselves are striving to send their kids to the States. The hypocrisy in Pakistan has reached unbelievable levels.

Kudos to you for bringing this issue out.

Dear Waheeed,

Thanks for a heartfelt posting on ``our`` Lahore.

Regards

Asim

ReTahmed

Hope you enjoyed your dinner.

I did not question your integrity. You made some harsh and extreme statements in my opinion that I had to retort. I never called you names. I just vehemently disagreed with the comments you made that sounded too tinny and high pitched.

Regarding the god part, I have nothing against religion. I did not mean to insult your beliefs and if I did, I am truly sorry. I just believe that it is the private business of people. I only made that point because you gave god credit for things that were effort included. I am not a fan of dragging god in because whose god are we talking about? Yours, mine or somebody elses? Almost all wars today and through history were fought in god`s name, for that matter.

Hey, nothing is more therapeutic than disagreeing.

cheers

incognita #51:

I apologise for the levity.

Have said it so many times that I dislike repeating it with a straight face. This is an inter-active medium where the reader can comment on an article or poem according to his or her abilities. I express my views as honestly as I can.

Why should my ‘comments’ be viewed as criticism or a critique of the writer. They are simply my impressions and comments on the submitted piece.

Once you put this in perspective you would not accuse me of lack of objectivity [I think your critiques lack objectivity.]

As for [The fact that you suggest that one take into account the author`s background, age, qualification to decide what kind of harshness he deserves suggests a lack of objective criticism.] Again, please do not misconstrue my comments as a critique. I cannot help judging who is saying what. So in my attempt to place the writing I keep in mind who is saying it. Is that being harsh? Or realistic?

[Your critiques always make an interesting reading.] If you mean comments, I ‘d thank you.

[I have noticed that your criticisms are hardly ever creative.] Again, they are my comments. Should they be ‘creative?’

[You seemed to have donned the mantle of the resident stylistic and content editor-in-chief for some reason.] Wrong impression. Like any other interactor I have a right to come in and express my comments.

[ It may not be the most elegantly written article but it has a point, a message, that is the experience of an expatriate in a foreign land.That is precisely my point. I may be quibbling here but I do sincerely believe that many overzealous critics miss such things.] Having read other similar expressions, I thought the point (which did exist) was weakly delivered.

I thank you for the trouble you took.

As for the termite like creature who emerges from the woodwork just to attack me I have only this to say: to each his/her own.

regards,

temporal

Rdesikan #49

First, on style: You write, ``There you go again....In the guise of humility, you are digressing into the usual garden variety kneejerk india-bashing that is a great sport for your types.``

Why is it not possible for you to to carry on a discussion without getting personal and sarcastic and questioning my integrity?

Second, on substance: You write - ``I beg to differ in the `thanks to god`` part of it. If one succeeds in the West at least, it has more to do with personal effort/intelligence``. By thanking God I mean recognizing that personal effort is necessary but not sufficient to guarantee success. You recognize that ``the US is what it is because of contributions made by generations of people``. Fine. So at a minimum one thanks those people. But those people themselves were all highly religious and God-fearing and not necessarily stupid. Something for you to chew on (I in the meantime have gotto run and join family for dinner).

Cheers

Dear Layman,

I do apologise if it appeared that I was Bharat-Bashing. I wasn’t. You said that what is distinctive about Pakistani culture that is not derived from India or the Middle East. You make it sound as if Pakistan was some fraction of India which broke off it. The point is, India as we know now never existed before 1947 so how could Pakistan adopt its culture from India. Couldn’t one say the same thing about India that it adopted its culture from Pakistan?

Trying to define Indian territory and history and culture is like trying to define life. You can’t do it. India is there, it’s big, it’s bulky, it has lots of things so we accept it, but India was never an exclusive piece of land with a rigid set of rules. Territories, states, and people of different kind have constantly been coming and going. In the old days, ‘India’ was split into northern and southern kingdoms which were very different from each other, for example.

I sincerely hope that I have answered your question. If not let me know but it would take me about 21 days to reply ;-)

Take care

Omar Phoenix

Re: All

I visited home after many many years. My house is just outside the walled city, just to give all of you a point of reference. Houses in my neighbourhood are a reflection of the people who live in them, devoid of paint and light, as if they are melting brick by brick. The reason most of them are there is that they have no where to go. A lot of people have passed away, which has impacted the financial ability of most households and a great deal of them have rented at least some portion of their homes just to make ends meet and get by, because the part of city they live in renders their youth unemployed. I have met a lot of angry young men who are resentful and depressed, the kind who don`t want to talk about it and if you are able to connect with them they have a hard time stopping. I felt the clear divide between communities living in different sections of the city. If you happen to take Davis road off Mall and cross Simla towards railway head quarters, you`ll know what I mean.

What I saw was shameful, a few people have everything and the rest of the lot has hardly anything. I drove by cavalry ground, defence, gulberg, X-Y-Z-towns, there I saw, light, shops, restaurants, sanitation, roads, schools, proper grid system for streets, BIG CARS and EVEN BIGGER HOUSES, Its ridiculous, people used to joke to me when you visit lahore or islamabad check out the ``kothiz``, I don`t know how and from where people got so much money ! I know a bit of math, but I can`t add it all up.

Everyone kept telling ``keh saRrkain ban ga`ee hain``, ``daekhain jee Nai saRrkain ban ga`ee hain``, ``tum nay saRrkain daekhee hain Lahore key``...?

``Jitnaa paisay in kambakht saRrkon pay lagayaa haye hakoomat nay uttna paisa ya wohee in pay cycle, tanga, rickshaw, aor paydal chalnay waloN paye lagaaya jaataa toa shaid aaj halaat zara mukhtalif hotay`` I think to myself.

Lahore has changed so much, maggar maeray mohallay kay loagon kay halaat behtar honaye key bajaaye aor biGgr gayaye hain.

Han albatta SaRrkain zaroor baun gayee hain, un kee shaid, jin kay baap kay gharr ko woh saRrk jatee ho !

hashmiali #47, # 48

Your article made interesting reading. I hope you

will not get dissuaded by some undue harsh criticism from ``highbrow critics`` :).

Temporal # 39

I have to say that your sarcastic

response is definitely amusing if not

anything else. You shrink from tackling the

issues I raised. I agree with you that sarcasm

may be a way to deflect serious thought, you have

to be commended on that choice.



I think I should return the favour and issue a

warning, what I about to say may not be

very pleasant. I apologize in advance.

I think your critiques lack objectivity. The fact

that you suggest that one

take into account the author`s background, age,

qualification to decide what kind of harshness he

deserves suggests a lack of objective criticism.

I think you have a tendency to equate honest

criticism with harsh criticism. In fact it ends

up having quite the opposite effect. This is a

very strong temptation for a critic and probably

a difficult one to resist :). An honest critique

may be harsh but a harsh one isn`t always honest.

Anyway, I think you understand what I am saying.

Your critiques always make an interesting reading.

best regards,

Incognita

Dr Sahb:

You could have made your pointless point in a less condescending manner... and with less generalizations... ``Ummeed ki kiran`` abhi zinda hai... at least I hope so...

Layman #27 & #40:

Hey, haven`t you been reading Jay`s posts? He`s a specialist at this (maybe he should write soemthing on this for Chowk). According to him, Pakistanis have a very distinct culture. Some (only some - Jay can provide you with more) characteristics:

--we are a brain dead people high on heroin, low on morale, suffering... just waiting for Jay the Messiah to pull that plug and put us out of our misery (Jay yaar kabh tak tarpao gai? what? the plug`s stuck? oh ho..)

--we are a people with no future - all our young are sent off to madrassahs to train for Jihad and will eventually die for ``THE`` cause... so no population means no future

--we`re all jahil jihadis with k for kafir indoctrinated in our intoxicated minds

--most of our women are married off to the Quran or are killed ``honourably`` (but somehow our population keeps growing steadily)

--we are a good for nothing, lazy qaum esp when it comes to reading our papers (hence Jay provides us with the news updates right here at chowk so we don`t have to go anywhere else - thank you Jay! Forever grateful for your services)

--we are deaf, dumb and blind and prone to making mistakes over and over again (first the TNT, then the partition, then the... the list is endless and I can`t read Jay`s writing... ask him for the complete version)

--and of course, not a single other country can boast of having Jay as a missionary (across the border) on a sole mission: to direct the poor miserable stupid Pakistanis onto the right track by posting highly intellectual – or ``high level`` as urstruly would say – interacts here at Chowk (for only Jay seems to see the logic behind them – they’re way beyond our comprehension!)

Man, I`m proud to be a Pakistani! I mean, just how much more distinct a culture can one have?

Jay:

[[become a jihadist, take the express route to heaven through kashmir. So please clinton, help me, may be you can run me over as you like to drive on the wrong side of the road in pakistan.]]

--since all Jihadis are supposed to go directly to heaven, I`m sure you wouldn`t want to be there with them right? Great! I better start working hard on impressing God, heaven is one place I can look forward to now... Oh be careful Clinton - don`t want Jay to die a martyr (since he`ll be dying on enemy soil) and end up in heaven... or do you believe in reincarnation Jay? Oh dear... Jay, what if you`re reincarnated as a Jihadi in Pakistan? Scary thought isn`t it?

Re Tahmed

There you go again....

I beg to differ in the `thanks to god`` part of it. If one succeeds in the West at least, it has more to do with personal effort/intelligence [as you know, things are otherwise in the subcontinent]. So why should god enter the picture. America was built on hard work and effort and god was something that gave people succour. So leave god out of it. Look where too much of this god business has gotten your country into!

In the guise of humility, you are digressing into the usual garden variety kneejerk india-bashing that is a great sport for your types. My response was not about the billions left behind toiling in vain but a response to migration for opportunity. So, what`s your point about the 5 billion doing better than most Indians? Regarding India`s link about its prosperity to the West, that`s right. You want us to link up with those taliban nuts? One reason for the early brain drain was the moth-driven bureaucracy and despite the flight of hundreds of thousands, ask yourself, which country is better off today.

You state that Indian society is backward looking and even under that guise of humility, the sarcasm is so hard to hide. It oozeth over, my dear chap. I`m in fact ashamed of some of the crap done by the BJP nuts and the coopting of religion into politics, but on that issue alone, which of the two countries is more backward?

You know what, the last sentence in your reply applies just as well to you: ``Cheap chest beating and hubris simply betray our hidden insecurities.`` Very well put, dude.

Cheers

Re #21

Hi, Shankar!

Nice to hear from a fellow shrink, though I`m beginning to think I should have used a nom de plume.There have been several none-too-kind references to the theme of `doctor, heal thyself`.I didn`t realize people could be so brutal :-)

Anyway, I happen to think there is a good practice of Psychiatry to be made in Lahore.My father is a Psychologist and still practices psychotherapy part time.I usually get asked to do at least 3 or 4 informal consultations when I go home on vacation.Maybe, I`ll regret it after 6 months of living there but the sense of belonging that I feel in Lahore has never been replicated in America (I`ll probably have several other people dump on me after this one!).

After I get over the shock of this article`s responses, I`ll probably write some more, maybe just to tick some more people off!

Whew! I guess I hadn`t read all the replies on the board! Talk about `hazing`! Anyway, I was just trying to express my opinions, same as everyone else; you know, free speech and all that.

Someone said I should have written this after moving to Pakistan, which seems to make some sense, except that I`m still here so....

Anyway, to those who liked the article, thank you! To those who didn`t , sorry, read something else :-)

Rdesikan #30 In responding to my question concerning the basis for your claims - whether the basis is statistical studies or your imagination - you say ``I was just making a fact-based claim`` but do not quote any survey. There is nothing wrong with having personal impressions, but then one should have the intellectual honesty and emotional maturity to accept that. So, India and Indians are doing well nowadays, and I wish you all further success. But please have the humility to thank God and not your personal brains for this, and recognize that there are 5 billion other people on earth, most of whom are doing better than most Indians are, and that the seeds of India`s prosperity lie in the enterprise of the West, not in the moth-ridden Indian bureaucracy or the backward looking Indian society. These are harsh facts, I know, but reality makes us humble. Cheap chest beating and hubris simply betray our hidden insecurities.

Cheers

Re: Shandana, #38

Like you, Shandana, I also choose hope. If weren`t for hope, this world--and certainly me--would not have survived this long.

However, it is my hope for Pakistan, perhaps unrealistically in your opinion, that is shattered. Let me count the ways, going back about thirty years--that is more than one generation.

First, it was Zulfikar Ali Bhutto, a PhD from UC Berkley who supposedly was an enlightened individual and knew better. He was a great hope for Pakistan. What happened? He ruled like an ignorant dictator and nationalized everything in sight, for which Pakistan to this day is paying a heavy economic and social price. Benazir is probably not even worth talking about. When the first time Nawaz Sharif was running for the Prime Ministership I remember telling a World Bank manager, more hopefully than perhaps reality dictated, that Nawaz is probably the best thing that could happen to Pakistan. How much Pakistan progressed, either economically or socially, in Nawaz`s two tenures we all know. Then came the latest hope, the CEO of Pakistan, Musharraf. I pinned all my hope, just as your brilliant editor Najam Sethi did, on Musharraf, hoping that he will guide Pakistan out of the mess. Now, like Najam Sethi, I too am disillusioned. What is it now that is going to follow Musharraf? Another hope to culminate in naught?

With each hope, the events ensuing the hope have made me exceedingly cynical about Pakistan`s future. Pakistan is in a lot worse shape today than it was twentysix years ago when I left it. What hope should I have for Pakistan? Is fiftytwo--forget about twentysix--too short a period of time to see even a glimmer of hope? Is Pakistan an iota better in the year 2000 than it was in the year 1948? Forget about better, is it even the same?

I would not have cared a bit about Pakistan if my history was not tied to it. Pakistan to me is ``a symbol of almost religious proportions,`` and ``an intense magnetic force.`` I consider it my identity. It is against this backdrop that, when I look back, and then forward, my hope is shattered. One day Pakistan may become a country of prosperity, of peace and security, of tolerance and of individual freedom, of a just society. What saddens me that it will not happen in my life time.

What made you think that I ``speak for everybody`` and not myself alone? Further, you say ``geographical location cannot be taken as an indicator of commitment and belief, or value of contribution.`` What is it that you are hinting at?

By the if anyone would like to e-mail me directly, you can do so at hashmiali@hotmail.com

I love receiving e-mail!