A Different Story

Gymnosophist #

You asked me in my context.

Compared to my relatives in India (with Lallo Prasad), our whole clan is doing much better in Pakistan.

Only a Hindu in Pakistan can tell you. They usually suffer the same way as other people of their socio-economic class and usually do as well as their counterparts. Particularly the Hindu dominant area of Umarkot has very little influence of religious parties, for religion to play any significant part. And in all political parties in Sind, Hindus are active also.

May be a Hindu from Pakistan can write better.

I agree that all is not well. But it is mostly influentials and police which takes its toll in the name of religion. These same people suppress Muslims without invoking religion.

Incidently, it is educated people who provide the gunpowder for bigotry. And common man interacting with each other is human first and human last.

Humsab #

I am well aware of multiple trends in Pakistan.

It is not necessary to read each and everything.

There are all forms of ANTI trends.

Like KalaBagh Dam is bad.

Jihadis are bad.

Fundoos should be reigned.

N.G.O`s are bad.

Dominance of Punjab is bad.

Ethnicity and anti country slogans are bad.

Whether it is Najam Sethi, or Pervez HoodBhoy or Maulana Fazlur-Rehman. No body has a positive solution except to impose their own will on everybody.

The solution are also interesting.

Fundoos should be killed.

Jihadis should be reigned.

N.G.O`s should be disbanded.

MQM and other ethnic parties should be crushed.

There are so many conflicting interests.

I will also give my solution.

But the solution should take into account all the ground realities, biases and culture of people, and principles of justice.

And no solution should embark on massive killing or suppression of any group, but rather in a manner of give and take.

Pakistani society is much more complex, than any other, so far I have seen. (USA and Iran).

There are some genuine concerns.

Like Russian invasion and transformation of Afghan culture and now resistance to foreign influence which Afghan throughout history have done. Like massive killing and suppression of Kashmiris.

Is there any solution.

With practical experience, I can say that if economic opportunities are created, lot of our problems are solved.

But apart from that. The press in Pakistan has struggled hard, and is probably one of the freest press in world. That augurs very well for Pakistan as far I am concerned.

RSaxena #

Some people in Pakistan are fundoos.

As far as India is concerned, majority of population is fundoos or fundoos supporter.

By the way the term fundoos should be dropped in favor of ``Bigots``.

There is no dearth of it in the world.

Oops !

http://secular.ws/yunis.htm

Dr. Younus Shaikh is founder-President of ‘Enlightenment’, a Pakistan based organization which is a member of the International Humanist and Ethical Union (www.iheu.org). Dr. Shaikh is a doctor and a teacher at a medical college in Islamabad. He lived and worked in the UK before returning to Pakistan.

On 4 October 2000, Dr. Shaikh was arrested by the Islamabad police and booked under the dreaded Section 295-C (Blasphemy) of the Pakistan Penal Code. The police First Information Report was not readily available, but in it he is alleged to have defiled Mohammad, the Prophet of Islam, by pointing out that the Prophet did not become a Muslim till the age of 40 (ie. until he received the first message of God), and that the Prophet`s parents were non-Muslims because they died before Islam was proposed by the Prophet.

-arun gupta

Rsaxena

Please for God`s sake, for Bhagwan`s sake, for Allah`s sake ... and if you are christian for Christ`s sake I urge you to come to Pakistan and see for yourself how many fundoos there are..... Pakistan was always seen as a Moderate Muslim Country ... and the only reason people like you have this misconception of Pakistan ... is because the Afghan war spilled in these fundamentalist Aghans and also Jamaat e Islami (the one which was against the creation of Pakistan) decided to take advantage of that.

Fundoos are the loudest people in Pakistan however because parties like the Jamaat e Islami and their student body Jamiat are the most well organized.

I assure you (though I think you would rather see a fundamentalist Pakistan)

a)that the majority of Pakistan is not fundoo

b)this loud fundamentalist community will one day be eradicated... there will inshallah be a fundocide (or fundoocide) in Pakistan .....

Pakistan Zindabad

Re: Bahmad

Thanks for the word of support, but I think that the discussion has already soured on the usual Indo-Pak rhetoric!

I have been avoiding this board for a reason!

Ciao

Perhaps people may want to help :

http://secular.ws/yunis.htm

-arun gupta

krashid

# 211

Rashid ji

Your comments on Irfan Hussain`s Column in Dawn 4th Nov. 2000 i.e. today?

Thanks

Denial.

The conclusion that seems to be surfacing is this: What constitutes ``fundoo`` behavior in other countries is mainstream and government sanctioned in Pakistan. Let`s reiterate to ensure that you (particularly the amazing krashid and ylh) understand. There are ``fundoos`` in every country -no one ever denied that - but in Pakistan a) there are more than in any other country with the exception of Afghanistan and, b) they are government supported, institutionalized and fairly powerful. And don`t give me that BS about how few votes they receive -- there is no voting in Pakistan and they have widespread support from the poor who are crawling over each other to send a son or two to become a shaheed.

Rsaxena

the course I was talking about was a 400 level course... the students were almost all FOBS .....

except two ABCDs one of which was a Pakistani....

By saying that I am a persian wannabe is the biggest lie ... why cant you just for once have a civil discussion .... and it is because you are unable to ever come up with anything relevant except twisting of words which makes me say that I won the debate... I won it because I proved the Bande Materam was from a novel which was not anti British but Anti Muslim ... to which you and your friend Viking replied in the most undignified manner!

Yasser Hamdani

some of my relatives are Qadianis ... and they are living a very happy life in Pakistan...

Interestingly enough in Pakistan the most persecuted community has the highest literacy rate and per capita income.

Yasser

PIGS AND PHOTOS,

Tibor 224 talks of a muslim not accepting a piggy bank. Recently one of my old pals, a chief engineer on a norwegian oil tanker made his first trip to Saudi arabia. He was told by the captain to remove all `other` religios symbols and photos from the cabins. He removed the rosary and the jesus pictures. He had a photo of his wife and child. The suadi officials visited his cabin, took the photo and smashed it with boots, apparently a womans photo exposing the face is unislamic. One should realise, this happening on a ship, on a short trip to the saudi.

May be this is one off incident, may be the ones with better understanding of islam and saudi can illuminate. Tibor should thank the friend, a normal reaction of the saudi variety would be to smash it on ..

Jay @213:

[No, kashmir is not the problem, it is only a symptom.]

that`s a flat bit of unadulterated truth jay. forget about the stoic pakis, you should be telling this to people like St.Shankar who believe that india will be turned into a peaceful garden of eden if we let the jehadists have their way and kashmir secedes.

kashmir or no kashmir, the lifeless bloodthirsty jehadi rats from across the border will always be swarming into our home in search of death. you are absolutely right jay, kashmir is just the symptom, the actual problem lies elsewhere.

Ref krashid #: 72

You replied {Gymnosophist#

I would like to be a Muslim in Pakistan, rather than India or Kashmir (I don`t know IO Kashmir is part of India or International dispute)

May be it is part of India when politics comes and International dispute when killing of Kashmiris goes.

AND JINNAH STANDS RIGHT AGAIN.}

The question was NOT if you would want to be a Muslim in Pakistan rather than in India.

The question was, What would you rather be: a Chakma (Buddhist) in Bangladesh, a Tibetan in China, a Nepali in Bhutan, a non-Hindu in Nepal, a Hindu in Pakistan or a Muslim in India?

I see there has been no answer to the question.

Anyway, perhaps YLH can declare himself to be a Qadiani in Pakistan and see what happens to him.

That goes for you, too.

One thing I really have to thank Jinnah for: at least most of the mad mullahs are on your side of the border.

Viking #229- #230.

I am impressed by your soberity today.:-)

In response to viking (Reply # 227)
Dear Viking:

Thanks for the reality check. I concede.

Sincerely, Bilal Ahmad