The Young Philosopher

Some updates 5 years later:

1- The young philosopher doesn`t work with Raza Kazim anymore. I believe he contributed a pathetic article or two on chowk... and was quite unimpressive.

2- Rehan Hassan Ansari has turned out to be a collossal failure from the looks of it as he has contributed nothing of repute either here or in any international forum.

3- Cuckoo`s Cafe continues to thrive.

4- Raza Kazim`s book ``Evolutionary Mentology`` is still not complete.

I posted a message in response to Ali`s narration of Punjabi swear words. I narrated a conversation between two university students in Urdu which was colored with urdu words for chhollay,khoosa etc that Ali used. I want to know why Chowk staff blocked my post? why the word for chollay in urdu(although I replaced it with *s except the first intial) was obscene, not worth being read by our respected chowk readers but Ali`s Punjabi greetings post was perfectly ok for our readers to read? or do our chowk staff deny that such words or conversations don`t exist in other languages?

My point of posting that message was to illustrate that every language has bad words and frequent use of them in conversations between friends, be they Majha/gamma or Irfan/Mr. Ali or Tom/David.

Soorya:there is no Punjabi dialy newspaper in Pakistan. there are 2-3 Punjabi monthly and quarterly magazines only. Although there is a yearly compilation of most prominent Punjabi writings around the word under the title of `Sahit`...it is being published since 1996...Sahit97. Sahit98 Sahit99 etc... from Lahore and includes work by Punjabi writers from india, pakistan, usa etc.

Ustruly: The topic under discussion was introduction of native languages in schools to make it easy for a large segment of illiterate population to become literate in addition to accepting native languages as national languages. However, your previous post dealt with improving literacy which nobody would argue against it. The improvement of literacy is the primary purpose to which native languages would contribute positively. This is what I suggested.

The reasons for low literacy level are many. We can talk about poor planning, not making it the top priority, lower spending and runaway population growth. A large number of people want government to take concrete steps in order to improve literacy, yet most people also want to have large family sizes which is counter productive to their first demand. Looking at the population distribution according to age group, Pakistan is one of the few Asian countries where almost 60-70 percent of the population is below 15 years and thus consumes only. It is very unfair for people to keep demanding the government to pay for this consumption through free education and lower or no taxes. The over-population has overwhelmed the system more so than all the corruption we talk about. There is no way to keep up with 2.9 percent population growth rate, 5+ percent inflation and 3-5 percent economic growth. The standard of living and literacy level can not improve with this sort of a combination. It is a macro level problem. A micro level surgery by some of us leaving the good life here and going back to contribute in literacy improvement is not going to help.

Similarly, at micro level, you have a point in suggesting the role madrassahs are playing in improving the literacy level. On the other hand, some of what is taught there is counter productive. I do not want to go into details about how madrassah teaching supports classical and out-dated approaches to current problems. Suffice it to say, without having any real data, that Afghanistan and NWFP with a strong madrassah traditions dating back to several centuries have not helped those people in any way enviable to the rest of people around Afghanistan and NWFP. There is not even a spec of evidence to suggest that mullahs and madrassahs are contributing positively towards literacy, harmony, prosperity, economy or a sober identity. Moreover, their stress on Arabic, Persian and Urdu languages are counter to native languages.

RE: Cheema# 111

Wouldn`t it be more practical if instead of furthering my argument and your counter-argument, we draw the moral. The moral which is always lost in bickering. There is always ``First Time`` of everything, lets do it the very first time.

Urstuly,

You are missing the point when you said how many commies/ leftist go to the rural areas to teach kids. There are many communist/ socialist organizations which have struggled to eradicate feudalism in the country which is the root cause for illetracy in the country, but they were crushed by the establishment and the military. There are some cases when Kissan Mazdoor Movement actively fought to grab the land from feudals, but then they were crushed by the establishment and especially the military, remember Rawalpindi Conspiracy Case and Zia`s curbing of MRD movement.

The real improvement is possible only when social and economic justice is established, in East Punjab feudalism was abolished after partition with upper limit for owning land set to 25 acres, now they have higher literacy rate ( Punjabi is the state language) and higher agricultural yield than Western Pubjab despite being smaller in area.

The real problem lies with the pseudo intellectuals who go for preserving the status quo.

URSTRULY,#107

I totally agree with your post.I never suggested anything otherwise.Please re-visit my post # 96 or so(?) and you will understand.

Every effort must be made to teach ALL subjects in the mother-tongue and ALL OTHER languages be made OPTIONAL but availabe.The job oriented languages,if not learned,would only result in not providing a job to the one who is NOT interested in a routine job.A lot of mavericks,adventurers,and leading-edge learned people invariably belong to this category.The miserable pathetic kind,our kind,are relegated to regurgitated ``knowledge``(read info) and are condemned to tow the line of the Kalloo,Bhoora & Jazami western trash.

These info-pukers are the real bane of our nations;the ignoramuses like Moeen Qureshi & Shaukat Aziz.

Ali 1# 103

Are you serious.

FIGHT FOR GRADES, LITERACY AND OXEN

SameerJB & Afaqui

According to UN standards, any person who can read and write a simple sentence is considered literate. Whereas, according to my information the GOP standard of minimum literacy is a person who can read and write his own name. By either standards the literacy rate in Pakistan is 37.8% (Source: CIA World Fact Book, Literacy Definition: age 15 and over can read and write). According to conservative estimates (estimates based on employment data and word of mouth) hardly 15% of the population has a level of education that enables them to earn their bread and butter, run the country and economy for all of us. Lets make this percentage 25% instead of 15%. What we are left with is 75% oxen and cows whose only purpose in life is to plough fields (in this country of 65% agri-based economy) and feed rest of lethargic good for nothing souls whose only purpose in life is to suppress these 75% sub-humans.

Irony- The Irony here is that this 75% of the population has the deciding voting power. Any one can complete this paragraph from here ………..

Vacuum- Nature hates vacuum. With the recent development in media-electricity and telephone reaching far and wide corners of the country- and TV rapidly replacing radio-people are getting more and more aware of the need for education. Guess who is being pro-active here. Yes, our Mullah whom we love to hate so much. Is he forcing people with his Klashnikov to come to his Madrassah? Is he kidnapping your kids and putting them in his Madrassahs? I don’t think so. People are sending their kids voluntarily because they do not have any other choice. WE DID NOT LEAVE THEM WITH ANY OTHER CHOICE. The pressure to get educated is now getting un-bearable. How many of our ``enlightened`` liberals are out there, sitting with these sweaty bipeds and teaching them. Zero. My question is, when these self-proclaimed commie-turned-liberals are gonna stop whinning like little girls and get their boney butts out there in villages and start teaching their brother and sisters. I think it is never gonna happen. However, if they are offered a lucrative job with an NGO they might. But for what-when they are getting paid to promote a uniform culture throughout the world-the Western Culture? I don’t understand how it is any different from British who created Kalay Babu to look after their interests-be their eyes and ears-who proved to be more loyal than the king. What is so difficult to understand here?

Mr. Afaaqui and Ali1
It aint 50`s, 60`s, and 70`s no more. The contest for grades and to occupy government jobs is over. Government is being forced to cut its flabb. Please have mercy on Punjab now. Let them educate themselves. Please let a Punjabi child learn what he hears from the time he shrieks his first cry.

ali1 #102 & #103:

Oh boy! Your posts imply a great deal about the type of social circle YOU move around in. I know many ``decent, educated`` Punjabis who have NOT abandoned their language. Being half Punjabi myself, let me assure you not every Punjabi greets another in the manner you`ve described (not even all the majha/gammas), and not every Punjabi uses the ``P`` term as you claim they do. I admit there are some variations of Punjabi that do sound quite coarse, but at the same time there are other variations that I personally find quite pleasant to the ears. But you wouldn`t know about them - judging by your posts, it doesn`t seem as if you`ve interacted with many Punjabis outside the majha/gamma circle.

abbay khoob bola to bhi bhaanji kay...

Re:101

Tahmed321,

Shafqat Tanveer Mirza quotes the following line by Faiz Ahmed Faiz after Faiz started to write in Punjabi near the end of his life:

Hovey fajr te akhiay bismillah, aj doltaN saaday ghar ayanaiN.

``Let there be dawn and we say in the name of God our wealth has come back to us.

As per Abbas Zaidi`s article `` LINGUISTIC CLEANSING`` http://www.gowanusbooks.com/punjabi.htm, there is no newspaper or magazine in Punjabi, who constitute 50% of the population !!

Is this a verifiable fact ??

Punjabi Greetings:

I sware I am not kidding, anyone who has spent time in Lahore can confirm this.



Majha and Gama are close friends and have not seen each other for some time.......

Majha (slaps Gama on his back): ``Oye Gamay! Phain day cholay! tu kithay gaib ho gaya see``

(``hey gama, you the clit---s of your sister, where did you disappear``)

Gama (slaps Majha in return): ``Oye Majhay! Phain day khoosay! gaib tuN hoya haiN ke meiN``

(``hey Majha, you the ass of your sister, it was you who disappeared not me``)

Both of them would then burst into laughter, appreciating their own sense of humor and walk hand in hand to the mithai shop for a glass of lassi.



No wonder decent, educated Punjabis have abandoned their language en masse. The majha/gama and the NCA/heera mandi types are the only patrons left now.

sincerely

The jihadist Punjabis, the Islamist Punjabis, the leftist Punjabis and of course the Khalistani Punjabis on this board....all agree on the ``mazloom`yat`` of their beloved mother tongue. tsk tsk.

Smell the lassi dudes (dhaggas?). The most frequently spoken Punjabi words are ``Phain Choud``....no wonder your language is in the dust bin and belongs there too.

sincerely

Aaker Patel #60 you write ``i`ve always found punjabis (including my brother-in-law) boorish and their language crude and earthy.``

Maybe so. Some of us Panjabis like to flatter ourselves and think differently.

Urstruly: Afaqui is right. Soofi Ghulam Mustafa Tabassum translated the work I posted previously and not Maulan Ghulam Rasool Mehr. I got mixed up with two ``Ghulams``. It is nice to be quickly corrected on Internet.

I also agree with rest of what you said in the previous post. It is a simple matter. Parents try best to prepare their children for the working life. Nobody can blame parents for prefering English over Urdu Schooling these days. You are also right about the window of opportunity limited to maximum of ten years. If it does not happen soon, we will be left far beind. The case for Punjabi language in schooling is for improving literacy level, identification/ pride with the mother culture and not for prosperity. Same is true for other Pakistani languages. Once there were attempts to introduce Urdu terms replacing English in Scinces. Current VC of Karachi University, Professor Zaidi and current Science Minister Ata-Ur-Rehman Khan were its most vocal proponents. There used to be yearly Urdu science Conferences, similar to more recent Islamic Science Conferences. In the end, the recognition for both of the above mentioned persons came through their writings in English and not in Urdu. In Journalism, you also see most of the well-known Journalists chose to write their articles in English with most Urdu Journalists left to write mostly about US bashing and religous matters. One indicator of the trend is the absence of new generation of Urdu literary figures. All of the famous literary figures are either dead or very old. Urdu poetry is suffering more than prose in this environment. The untimely death of Parveen Shakir, wiped out the only true representative of younger generation poets. Who cares about Farhat Abbas Shah? This guy is publishing books after books but nobody is buying.