Ghazali On Women In Islam

rsaxena #251,

Grow up!

Hamidm writes: ``no knowledge of what ? isn`t it silly that most of us who are willing to circumcise our sons, give up fine wines ....``

Give up fine wines !!!! Perish the thought. For all wine lovers out if you ever have the opportunity, check out Darioush Wineries on the silverado trail in Napa valley. Setup by an Iranian expatriate, this winery boasts its Zorastrian and Iranian wine-making heritage. Extremely soft and velvety merlots. I lack words to describe the joy experienced in good company, with good food and good wine.

Peace.

Slink:#249

Scout #251 echoes my sentiments about your post.

Thank you scout.

________________________________.

If we,ALL HUMANITY,had the capability and desire to learn from the mistakes of others none of us(AS HUMANS) would be acting the way we do.The journey & the quest is more important than the destination(simply because it is unknown).No matter what diet-regimen & fitness programmes we follow we know that death cannot be cheated.But we are told to follow simply to feel good & great while we are living.Even after knowing all this some of us just do not do it.And we may be ``highly educated`` ``pious`` or whatever,but all that has nothing whatsoever to do what our inner man/woman is prompting us to do/not do.

``Jaantha hoon savaab-e taa-u-th o zuhd

Pur tabiyyath ithher naheen aathee``.

Ghalib

tr:Oh,I do know the rewards of obedience & piety

But!I somehow just don`t feel like it.

It just brings home the point that we neither have the desire nor the capability to learn from the mistakes of others and that all of us want to do our own thing,and THIS INCLUDES those who try to straighten every wrinkle and flatten every curve they come across.Beauty to some is in variety and chaos whereas some efficient types want eveything in squares and chess-board patterns.

By the above blabberings,I`m simply attempting to convey that we simply do not know even what we should know.But one thing is certain,the moment someone tries to stop us from looking behind the curtain our desire & appetite gets all the more whetted.

Adam & Eve were eager to go near the forbidden tree,despite the clear-cut orders from the ONE & ONLY Himself.

(It would be worthwhile to study this further on one`s own time & pleasure---I do not want to prompt anyfurther)

Similarly,the presence of Iblees,The Satan,with Allah`s express Will is another aspect to ponder upon.One should keep in mind that alongwith Adam he too is the arch-believer.He is NOT kaafir or mushrik by definition.Ironically,he is condemned simply because he tried to be `more royal than the Monarch`!He got punished for his unflinching belief to bow before the ONE & ONLY and not Adam,even though the ONE & ONLY himself orders him to do so.

(A lot of great books are available in Urdu and English and one can find them if one has the desire)

``Sunnee hikayat-e husthee tho durmiann sey sunnee

Naa ibtidaa kee khuburr hai,naa intihaa maaloom``.



Pandit Brij Narain Chakbust?

tr:The story of life,we heard,only from somehere in the middle.

Beginning we know not,and we know not the end either.

__________________________________________________

wassalaam.

Let us divert our discussion here from Ghazali to
Sir Syed.
Religion and reality can and do exist together.
Unfortunately by putting too much emphasis on religious dogma, we often end up ignoring the reality of the world around us.
Sir Syed is the only real success story for us in the past 200 years. Ghazali is outdated.
Sir Syed`s ideas are a much more realistic path
for Muslims to follow while not giving up on their
identity.
There may be more important work that Ghazali has
accomplished and can be credited for within Islamic thinking. But what has been exposed here in this article is not realistic enough for serious comment.

Ras

Re: Slink #249

Sounds like you`ve been reading Foucault: We are all prisoners of our own discourse. Some of us know we are prisoners and that there is probably more out there than we realize. Others of us, the true believers of any faith, religious or secular, prefer ignorant incarceration.

What do you do about the wilfully ignorant? Let them revel in their ignorance? OK by me but what about when they insist that I join them in revelling in ignorance?

What the teachings of Islam have produced in its youth:

``I say this because, now I am convinced, the only good Indian is a dead one!``

- Courtesy a 20-year-old Pakistani mullah on the Farzana Veresy board.

slink #249,

Hallelujah. ;)

We needed this awakening. I was getting sick of the criticisms, tunnel-visioned views expressed by the interactors here.

As I always say, it`s better for all to make God their religion and not religion their God.

Once again, bravo and thank you. You made my morning brighter (even though it`s snowing).

dear urstruly,

glad to see you passionately involved in something :) you write only God and man can know a mans Neeyat. true, but most men do not know their own neeyat. most people are not in touch with themselves and are therefore unable to realize the difference between the natural and the acquired. i think that for a man or woman to truly know themselves, they must first strip. take off everything `given` to them and then make a passionless study of what remains. the `givens` include religion, especially one which has been handed down to them rather than chosen for themselves. the message that people across the globe are responding to might be all the things you say it is. you can teach a man to repeat that parrotlike after you, but that achieves nothing other than emphasizing the supremacy of man over the supremacy of God, because when people put pressure on you to be `on the right path` they`re doing it because they are concerned with your place in THEIR world. they do not seek to bring you closer to God, or Brahma or Yahweh, they seek to bring you closer to themselves. why does Simi write that this is a purposeless discussion? who taught Simi that? under what guise? why the fervent need to eradicate all the ways in which man can get to know himself? if what they say is true we will all arrive at the same conclusion. and does it matter if you call it heaven and i call it nirvana? does it matter if you achieve epiphany through prayer and i achieve it through introspection? if God can speak all languages and understand my desires surely He knows what i`m thinking? if He knows what i`m thinking he must also know it is about him, because isn`t everything about Him? if prayer is submission, reflection and remembrance then isn`t thought worship refined? should you repress this form of worship because it is different from yours? is this the best use of the gifts He has showered on you, to make things the same rather than understand their differences? Simi writes anyone intent on understanding should study the Quran and Sunnah. i agree. study the Quran. study all religions. understand the natural and acquired traits captured in it`s evolution. don`t apply it in a vacum. if you study the Quran and then create an environment where you would never have practial experience of all the scenarios within then what`s the point? peace on earth people, peace on earth.
i`m hoping it`s not permanent, but i`ve recently been blessed with a renewed affection for life and a heightened sense of just how lucky i am to have the things i have. an unfortunate side effect is this wave of general good will to all and sundry. so, urstruly, i thought i`d start with you..peace...apologies for all previous rudeness..and g`night.

``All great truths arise as blasphemies`` - Bernard Shaw.

Muslim society as a whole is in a state of intellectual wasteland nowadays. Our salvation lies only in emancipation from superstition and myths and believing in reasnonig and rationalism. Lets not make facts sacred and start to question reality. Thats the only way we are going to reach the truth ( if there is any :)).

Good job solitude!

Urstruly (#244)

I must admit you make very good sense on the Neeyat bit there. Thought-provoking. On thinking through it a little, though I find that the question is not always simply a matter of good or bad neeyat (tho there`s no question the latter exists). Could it be that some folks are put off by inconsistencies more than others when it comes to divinely revealed scripture? In other words, could the author of #204 have been more `balanced` were he not asked to force some sort of reconciliation between `good` and `bad` edicts.

I know this demand ticks ME off.

But thanks for prompting me to check my own neeyat here. It was found wanting.

urstruly (#242)

``Should contradictory conclusions then breed contempt or mutual respect?``

Depends, obviously. Nothing wrong with feeling contempt for beliefs that one feels are degrading. Contempt for the those who hold those beliefs is another matter, though sometimes unavoidable.

``Mutual Respect!!!? C`mon, I thought you were my bigot-in-arms. How disappointing that you should start mouthing these late-twentieth century PC virtues! Next thing I know you`ll be saying all relgions lead to God! Or that men and women are equal. :-)

Sheesh!!

a follower of naqshbandian islam claims :

``[discussion] promotes confusion and allows people with no knowledge or background to influence Muslims who have little knowledge themselves.``

........ no knowledge of what ? isn`t it silly that most of us who are willing to circumcise our sons, give up fine wines and pork chops, take up jihadic arms against kafirs like rsaxena, risk shahadat, starve ourselves from dawn to dusk, throw our daughters behind the veil and generally make fools out of ourselves do so without understanding the ``true`` meaning of religion ...... for god`s sake, give me a break ! what are we - cows ? sheep? idiots? .... you don`t have to be a rhodes scholar or david boise to figure out gabriel`s garbled message ...... what`s so difficult about deducing that any code of law that allows promiscuous polygamy presents a rather dim view of women ?....... any penal code that proscribes death for stupid things like blasphemy or defaming long dead caliphs who happened to be related to a prophet, has to be a little crazy ........ what is this nonsense about man being incapable of understanding divine wisdom ? what utter nonsense ! ........even my seven year old demands an answer to why she should eat her vegetables ..... and the answer ``because`` is not enough ....... let`s show ourselves some respect and not be dragged down and degraded by `` blind faith`` which is a scurrilous euphemism for superstition and stupidity.......

.... so quit spewing out silly arguments like democrats in florida, accept the fact that gabriel may have got his wires crossed, and move on with your lives - stop looking for dimples where none exist !

SORE LOSERS?

RE: AH 2000 # 241

Sometimes my ADD (Attention Deficit Disorder) kicks-in and I miss important things. So I am writing to clarify some other points in your post. A word on Niyat first; only God and the man himself knows his Niyat. We judge others by their actions and words since we can not read each other’s minds. Since you’ve asked, I would like to present post # 204, as an example, where poster has condemned the whole Quran and Muslims on the basis of verse 4:34. Such a reference of verse along with its proper translation suggests that the poster is a knowledgeable person. Now, one cannot say that he is dishonest and contemptuous because we can not read his mind but we may ask him how could he have missed the next verse i.e. 4:35. Answer to his questions was right there. Why he chose to “ignore” it? Niyat?

[an-Nisa` 4:35] And if ye fear a breach between them twain (the man and wife), appoint an arbiter from his folk and an arbiter from her folk. If they desire amendment Allah will make them of one mind. Lo! Allah is ever Knower, Aware.]

So what do we do here? Should we start condemning all Muslims because their faith tells them of spousal abuse (based on 4:34) or should we ask someone first, who has knowledge, why there are two apparently contradictory verses right next to each other. If one wants to base his reasons of not believing by choosing some from here and some from there then so be it. If one thinks that he is the absolute intelligence then so be it. We can not restrain someone who convinces himself by making his own interpretations based on only one part of something. The problem thus is not with the message it is with the person who only wants to understand that part of it, which he (dis)likes.

Doesn’t it explain the reason for the contemptuous, arrogant, self-righteous, self-important, egotistical, conceited, self-satisfying, and self-aggrandizing nature of their language and attitude? The reason is that they are sore losers. They just can not come to the terms with their indolence. They have imprisoned themselves in the confines of their own prejudices. These dungeons torture them. But they don’t understand that they are responsible for their own misery. Despite their sometime insidious, sometime corrupting, sometime arrogant, and sometime aggressive efforts the message has touched and captivated so many hearts around the globe and the universe for centuries.

AH 2000 241

Should contradictory conclusions then breed contempt or mutual respect?

Re. Urstruly (#235)

(If I may butt in here..) Is it conceivable that someone else may deduce diferently from the same ``lesson`` as did you EVEN WITH A `SAAF NEEYAT`?

Or must we simply assume that the `neeyat` was bad when what is learnt (by others) does not fit in with our view of the world?

Moreover, what is to be said of two people, both with saaf neeyats reaching contradictory conclusions from different lessons taught? (As an opponent of value-relativism, I`m sure you`ll have no problem coming up with examples)?

Finally, to what extent is neeyat conditioned?

Lookng forward to your thoughts...