Ghazali On Women In Islam

Re: Simi #231

What are you afraid of if people challenge and discuss that 1400-year-old book?

Re: Fuzair #234

You mustn`t be unecessarily harsh with Urstruly...he has not eaten for a few weeks due to Ramzan and it is affecting him.

#231 - Simi

why should well-intentioned discussions lead to a test of faith each time. Cmon sheepish mentality wont get anyone anywhere not in this day and age.

Fuz-zy babe-eh, (#234)

Thanks for saving me the trouble of having to transcribe my thoughts into sentences. Nicely argued!

Simi`s assertion that ``[discussion] promotes confusion and allows people with no knowledge or background to influence Muslims who have little knowledge themselves.`` is weak on two counts:

1) It assumes most of the folks here being influenced have little knowledge (Then again, that`s what Azhar seems to claim too)

2) It is hard to imagine how those with little knowledge but presumably good heads can be influenced by those with ``no knowledge``.

Hiding behind claims of `complexity` or the need for `deeper understanding` is just an attempt to deter questioning of suspect issues. At least some matters, if not all, are pretty straightforward --at least until they are contorted out of shape by scholars trying to sanitize them.

Ninah : You may find this book interesting :

Women and Gender in Islam : Historical Roots of a Modern Debate by Leila Ahmed

Paperback Reissue edition (August 1993) Yale Univ Pr; ISBN: 0300055838 ;

-Arun Gupta

RE: Fuzair

Every idea is ``supported`` (I do mean supported)by two kind of people-opponents and proponents. It is the nature of your question whether it leads you to proponents or to the opponenets. In addition to that it also depends on your ``Niaat`` i.e. intention. If you go to either one of them with all the contempt in your heart then you can learn nothing; you are just venting your contempt.

Just think about your school years when you hated some of your teachers and liked some, you will know that you were miserable in those subjects taught by the teachers whom you used to hate.

Your contempt for the teacher didnt let you learn the subject.

Re: Urstruly #233

So I gain no knowledge from discussion? How can I tell who is an idiot and who is not if I do not discuss things with that person? Trying to expand my knowledge is confusion generating? Listening to more than one opinion is bad? Oy vey, no wonder I am so confused. I`ve been trying too hard to hear all sides of every argument. To minimize confusion, I should only listen to your, err, I mean the correct, side.

So let me sum up here:

If I discuss matters with a person who is critical of Islam, I am only generating confusion. Therefore, I should only consort with like-minded people, lest they weaken my belief in the innate Truth of the Koran. In this way, we can mutually reinforce our faith and form a common wall against all enemies.

Sounds like Islam has more problems than I thought it had.

RE: Fuzair

What Simi meant is that, when you seek knowledge, you dont go to an idiot. You go to a scholar. And if you want to learn Mathematics you dont go to a medical school. It has nothing to do with beleif it is common sense.

Re: Simi #231

A perfect example of, ``I believe because I believe. And because I believe it, it must be true.``

The Prophet (PBUH) did not like this kind of purposeless discussion and warned us against it. I personally find it promotes confusion and allows people with no knowledge or background to influence Muslims who have little knowledge themselves.

Followers of Islam who have sincere questions should study the Quran and Sunah and avoid such discussions.

Zahra#226

I realize that. I apologize.

Urstruly (#224)

Now that you`ve given me the pleasure of attaining Mystery status, you really think I`m going to divulge? I really am surprised you haven`t been able to guess tho. I`ve made little attempt to change my style of expression. But this is cool-- I`m still really being myself but the reaction from many are somewhat (hint, hint) warmer.

* * * * * * * * * * * * *

Hamidm,

I`d like to join Fuzair in commending you on your truthful and hard hitting prose. I do long for the day when religion and belief will be free from the mental and emotional shackles of fear.

* * * * * * * * * * * * *

kutti or dosti now, urstruly? :-)

Urs

Re: Urstruly

``Well, you are too soft to be the wrath of Almighty called Zahra and you are too smart to be Sadna.``

He/she is definitely too smart to be you too so at least we can be assured that this isn`t one of your schizophrenia attacks.

re. Asif Naqshbandi (#218)

``This passage is cited by the modern Catholic writer Maura O’Neill, who writes on women’s issues in dialogue, and who rightly concludes: ‘Muslims do not use a masculine God as either a conscious or unconscious tool in the construction of gender roles.’ ``

I don`t know about where you were brought up, but where I was, God was often enough referred to as Allah MiaN -- is that really genderless?

Muhammed may strictly not be god to Muslims, but to all intents and purposes, he may as well be -- Perfect specimen of GOd`s image and all. (Or is hamidm misinformed about man as god`s image?)

Conceptually, Mohammed is a world removed from Allah, but emotionally, I wonder how great the distance really is??

Your long quote says something to the effect that Religion is a matter of the heart not of the mind. Maybe so. Maybe the best aspects of religon will only `register` in the heart, emotionally and are ABOVE our rational comprehension. But that is not the same as saying that matters of the heart may offend the minds sensibiities. Think of the mind and reason as a `primary filters` of reality. They may not be able to tell us WHAT IS, but can sureas hell tell us WHAT IS NOT.

The Don`t-rationalize;-just-FEEL position can be and is used to accomodate (and, if you think about it -- to RATIONALIZE) any nonsense under the sun.

I don`t think that was what sufism was about.

regards,

regards

Urstruly:

Besides the fact that your humor/sarcasm was well intended, I think using the word ``Almighty`` was ``very`` inappropriate. Please make a conscious note of it!

[TO MYSELF: Why am I surprised on Urs` creative attempts? I thought I read something about ``it`` in Mark Twain`s writings. Well, probably I should repost it for the benefit of many.]

Later,

Re: Hamidm #223

Nicely put. Its sad to see intelligent people trying desperately to reconcile their religion with the real world. However, the human mind is capable of endlessly compartmentalizing and rationalizing the unrationalizable, so we will always have religion with us.

I would still differ with Solitude in that, as I have endlessly argued, so far as ALL religious texts, interpreted as the literal WORD OF GOD, are full of so much kaka that the mind boggles. Why pick on Islam when there is so much juicy material in Christianity or Judaism? Oh yes, not too many of those folk are still insisting on following their religions literally.

Regards.