Democracy in Pakistan: The Missing Link?

Reply #: 108

scout

-----

``I agree with most of your post. The little line that I sent, was in anger, after reading a certain gymnosophist`s post, go back and read it if you`re interested.``

-----

I`m extremely sorry if you felt that my post was directed towards you. It started as a reply to you but the bulk of it was directed to desi youth.

-----

coming back to your points:

Most of what you say is true, and I`m glad you said it, not for me, but for Pakistani MEN reading.

-----

I knew you`d agree with it for obvious (and rightful) reasons :)

-----

We know the state of mullahs these days, and the state of ``repressed`` PAkistani men.

That doesn`t make female nudity acceptable. What kind of message are Indian women (the ones who engage in such objectification) sending to younger girls? Instead of lashing out at me, think about it.

-----

Alright, when you say `what kind of a message are Indian women sending to younger girls?` you are preassuming, as is your wont, that objectification is bad, which as I said, is very arguable and not many would agree with you on the same topic. You`re looking at things from your viewpoint but viewpoints towards the same issue outside Pakistan might be totally different. When they indulge in objectification (if they do), and send some x message to the younger generation, it is not saying anything at all because to prove that your claims have any substance, you have to prove that the x message is bad, which is a whole different issue. There are various different levels of tolerance to this whole issue and I believe India is somewhere between Pakistan and the US, though overwhelmingly leaning towards Pakistan`s side. How do you determine which level is right? It has not been observed (at least from my relative viewpoint), that Pakistan`s tolerance level has done any good, or that US`s tolerance level has done any bad. Where exactly would be the right line? No one can tell. Conclusion is that you cannot claim that the message that Indian women are sending out by these acts is necessarily morally bad for the society and is detrimental to the interests of Indian women in general in the long run.

On a different note, in a defensive posture, let me claim that I`ve had the fortune of meeting more than a few Pakistan women and more than enough Indian women, and I found that Pakistanis are not a whole lot more conservative than Indian women and any difference between the two is marginal, and not just Indian women, but both try to emulate Bollywood stars, though Indian women to a greater degree.

-----

I have a problem with such Indian women because I know Pakistanis will follow suit, if they haven`t done so already.

-----

Can I claim now that I have a problem with American women because Indian women are gonna follow suit??? If Indian women will be `morally correct` (as they have defined morality), they should have no fear. Similarly, if your religion is as solid and powerful as is claimed and if Pakistani women are as `morally sound` as they seem to be, they should not fear getting corrupted by a mere influx of Bollywood movies displaying scantily clad Indian actresses. Are they actually that weak?? I`m surprised you made this statement. It is like holding porn movie makers responsible for making desis jack off. LOLLLL

I`m sure you get the point though.

-----

What`s wrong with your culture that you have to resort to such low levels?

-----

Again, YOU define it as a `low level` but neither does India, nor does America or most other countries. How do you know your definition is `more correct`?

-----

BTW, your choice of Pakistani friends is interesting, two frustrated idiots, is that all you could find, or is that all you can handle?

-----

I know, bad choice, eh?? But since I`m not a female and very selfish, their behavior towards the weaker sex (hypocrisy incarnate) doesn`t elicit any opposition or boycott from me :) I only made them friends because of the many other good qualities that they have.

I`m sure though, that there are many good Pakis I haven`t met and in defense of my previous arguments, I`ll just go on to say that I dunno if it was chance or not, but I`ve met quite a few Pakis till today and most Pakis who haven`t been born in the US fit the label I defined. Of course, there have been exceptions to the rule - the nice Pakis that you talked about :)

Sorry again if you thought I was lashing out at you in my previous post. I did suspect it gave off a feeling to that effect and even added a `sorry` line as a disclaimer to counter it.

- Anand Thaker

Farangi-Kush #453

Some of the Muslims are intent upon preserving the Islami culture (If there is such a thing in existence) and to resist Ba Ba black sheep and to keep themselves in perpetual misery. Afghanistan is doing precisely the same. Begging to the West and UN for money after each arm twisting and if UN and West does not gine Aid then threatening to export heroine to preserve Islamic culture. (What a marvellous way to preserve Islamic culture)

Please if you want to continue begging to preserve the so called Islamic culture (more appropriately backwardness) the majority of Islamic Ummah has more self respect for themselves than your solution.

{{I am off to the airport for a seven day siesta in the lands where the sun shines the year round!}}

Allah be praised!!!

At least a one week reprieve from his crap!

Bilal Ahmad,

In an earlier post you criticized Sarwari for not reading Ayesha Jalal because jalal is critical of Jinnah... I hope you havent made that assumption through the internet article about A Jalal because

Ayesha Jalal`s book is a credible defense of Jinnah and in many ways a personal tribute. However I dont particularly agree with certain deductions that Jalal has made. I for one think that after 1946, Jinnah decided once and for all that Pakistan was a necessity!

Next time refrain from making opinions based on reviews from the net.

-YLH

PS I put up Ayesha Jalal`s email addressed to me. She is as patriotic as they come. She loves Pakistan, and she doesnot think it was a mistake. If you want I can repost the email, and you can contact Ayesha Jalal for verification. Dont think that everyone else is defeatist too.

KING FAHD’S EID MESSAGE

In his speech to mark the Eid, King Fahd of Saudi Arabia called for the Islamic world to work together on the economic front to expand its power in the world. I wonder the phrase “Islamic world” was used by the King. Nonetheless, solidarity for economic development and power is not a bad idea. Of course, the European Community is formed on a similar principle (basically territorial continuity; unity of European nation-states; mutuality).

The Nation then quotes Fahd saying: “For Muslim peoples security not to be at the mercy of international interests, we are called upon to work to build influential economic blocs able to play a more active role in the New World Order.” I wonder about the accuracy of this quote. The phrase the “Muslim peoples” not the “Muslim people” is a recognition that there is no de facto Ummah (Ummah is, therefore, an imagined community – an Utopia). The statement also draws our attention toward the Saudis realization that they were (in a sense) exploited by the United States during the Gulf War. Yet, there is an explicit recognition of an actual or expected “New World Order.” Such a rhetoric is necessary, in my view, to safeguard the Saudi interests in the Western World. It is also a means to tame the so-called Muslim World for: (1) reinforcing the US hegemony; (2) to sustain the Saudi control; and (3) to keep the simple, ordinary Muslim people emotionally satisfied/hopeful.

Fahd is also quoted saying: “The economy is one of the . . . major factors affecting life and if Muslims focus their efforts (on the economy) they will be able to be powerful and live with dignity.” Let me rebuff first. When the Muslims were dying from an acute famine (created artificially or otherwise) in a neighboring country, the Saudis took no apparent initiative to help them (maybe they asked the Americans to come and help). Remember, how much Islam stresses upon the rights and welfare of the neighbors.

Fahd is right that economic development will help the Muslim. But, which Muslims? Is there any real effort made so far to apply the principle of Islamic egalitarianism for the better of the Muslims around the world (yes, the Saudis provide considerable help to the religious organizations and the mosques around the world; they had provided a lot of help to Sadam against the Iranians). Finally, I am amazed that the speech writer has used the word “dignity” not “honor.” I think, the word “honor” should be replaced by “dignity” wherever possible.

Finally comment: The speech intendedly or unintentedly failed to mention the need for democratization in the so-called Islamic World. Yet, we need to see King Fahd’s message positively. I am sure economic solidarity between the Muslim nations would help improve economic and non-economic relations with other nations around the world.

Sincerely, Bilal Ahmad

Source: The Nation, December 28, 2000

UK universities, mosques hunting ground for militants

http://www.hindustantimes.com/nonfram/291200/dtLFOR45.asp

...He said every year, between 1,800 and 2,000 such recruits `go abroad for military training`, adding `they either go for national service in Pakistan or to private camps in South Africa, Nigeria or Afghanistan where they learn of weapons and explosives`...

In response to sac (Reply # 444)
Dear Sac:

Thanks for an interesting set of readings. Now, I understand your position better. In order to engage in a discourse, please do me a favor. I would like you to explain very briefly your understanding of the central idea of each publication. Also explain briefly how each message supports, negates or undermines, or supplants what I have done in my article (and in other messages). I am sure our discussion would be rewarding for all of us. Thanks again! I hope you are had a nice break.

Sincerely, Bilal Ahmad

In response to F_K (Reply # 453)
Dear F_K, Assalam-o-Alaikum:

If what Shammi and Sameer have brought to our attention (Replies # 454 and 455), then I am really out of touch of the Pakistani reality. May Allah help Pakistan (and you too; I hope you understand the meaning of Assalam-o-Alaikum; I meant it)!

My friend, if you really want to break the idols of the Farang and the Frangies, bring the ``power`` of Islam in your mind, body and soul. In addition, try to understand both Iqbal and Faiz that you cut and paste lavishly.

Wassalam,

Sincerely, Bilal Ahmad

tahmad:#452

It was not written as a recipe but as an indication of exploitive & oppressive philosophies esp. of those you have fallen head over heels in love with.

And something to watch out for!

Now that the British thugs have recessed from the world,what progress are they showing despite producing breaking-news scientists & philosophers?

Could it be that they are no laonger sitting on the capital accumulated from slave labour over the centuries?

Could it be that a seemingly endless supply of virgin & alluvial soil was not available to them,snatched from the rightful owners who invited the thugs in?

Could it be that they were not naturally insulated from alient assault by the two greatest oceans.

Could it be that the greatest money made & still being made is from the addiction industries:Like tobacco,coffee,liquor,opium,and a lot of those which are only whispered in upper circles.

Could it be that promoting & exporting porno stuff is not simply to tittilate the economic indicators?

Or is it a coincidence that invariably ALL great scientists happen to be those with black hair or foreign accents---after flushing them out of their homelands.

__________________________________________________

I do not have time----

I am off to the airport for a seven day siesta in the lands where the sun shines the year round!

__________________________________________________

wassalaam

Re: Talibanization of Pakistan and Opposition to New Year Celebrations

It has been said many repestedly that Pakistan is in no danger of being overrun by Islamic Fundamentalists because in every election to are routed and make up less than 10 percent of the elected representatives. This amounts to closing your eyes to a possibility whose consequences would be disastrous. Less likely it may be, the consequences of immense proportion require us to take it seriously. It becomes more important considering the following two realities.

1) The general apathy and indifference of the masses that is so obvious considering the 53 years of our history. This is what FerozK mentioned recently in his post. They are not willing to unite and challenge any force even if they deem it counter-productive. They will accept a Taliban style government that comes to power by hook or by crook.

2) The low probabities are to be taken seriously if their efects are very disturbing. Japan and California spend a great deal of resources on preparedness for earthquakes, yet the probablity of an earthquake happening is less than one day per year. It is because of its massive disastrous consequences. Switzerland has been always alert again any possible invasion. They keep their military well equipped and high state of readiness although they have not had an invasion for a very long time. They do all this because they see clearly the results of any perceived invasion. Pakistanis have to only look across the border into Afghanistan to find out what to expect from a Taliban style government. There is no influx of Pakistanis rushing to live under the Taliban`s sharia codes. In fact more Afghans are opting to move to Pakistan to avoid sharia codes of Taliban.

By allowing the groups of armed madrassah students to roam around in all major cities, threatening citizen with violence if they disobey to Taliban values. The absence of a challenge from law enforcing authority provides them an edge over others. A combination of zeal and edge over others is all it takes to start a march towards power. The non-evolutionary edge grows by building upon itself and then it does not matter if 10 percent or less population actually supports them. Nobody knows how popular Stalin ever was but he and his party workers had a definite edge over the rest and the rest is history.

The law should be applied equally to all irrespective of gangs with beards, green/ black turbans or Quran tied to their chests. The best challenge against Talibanization is democracy, electoral politics, regular elections and rule of law. True, elections do not always result in providing apt leadership but considering the disastrous consequences of Talibanization in the area of liberty, freedom, human rights, minorities and women, peace and prosperity-elections are the only solution.

Bottom line: Do not be fooled by the low popularity of Islamic Fundamentalist. It is more than sufficiently compensated by providing them an edge over the rest, just because they are determined and actively participate in our Kashmir endeavor.

Fuzair, any comments on the article excerpts below? An ominous portent for the future of Pakistan? I hope not. I hope that Pakistan does not slip further into an abyss, but rather emerges as a strong, self-confident, stable and a mature country. For its sake, for India`s sake and for the world`s sake. I hope that Pakistanis realize the real danger facing Pakistan, and I hope that Indians realize that it is in their interest to help Pakistan in this moment of weakness. I pray that both find the wisdom to head this off. Read on...

The Los Angeles Times, Dec. 28, 2000:

The Chilling Goal of Islam`s New Warriors

In Pakistan, today`s militant faithful see the entire world as the battlefield for their holy war.

Excerpts:

``From the moment I discovered the idea of jihad [holy war], I knew what I`d do with my life,`` Abu Samara (14) explained, sitting cross-legged and barefoot on the ground, an AK-47 slung over his shoulder.

Abu Samara is the archetype new ``Jihadi,`` a breed of Islamic warrior whose mission is no longer simply fighting infidels and oppressors in Muslim lands--the kind of campaign that put earlier generations of holy warriors on the map in war zones such as Afghanistan, Bosnia-Herzegovina, Lebanon and Chechnya.

The new Jihadis are the most dangerous face of Islam today. In Pakistan, they are the most aggressive among a growing array of activists and organizations replacing or challenging crumbling state institutions. They`ve already played a major role in transforming South Asia into the world`s most volatile region--and Pakistan into what the United States views as the world`s most explosive country

Virtually all of the private armies in Pakistan, the only Muslim country created solely to preserve a religious identity, are offshoots of groups launched with the help of Pakistani intelligence during the Soviet occupation of neighboring Afghanistan in the 1980s. But they weren`t disbanded after Moscow`s 1989 withdrawal. Inspired by Islam`s role in defeating a superpower, their mission and numbers expanded rapidly.

The impoverished South Asian nation is now home to at least 128 camps for militants dedicated to retrieving Kashmir and widening the Islamic world. Once the militants were proxies of the government. Now, even the new military regime is unable or unwilling to rein them in.

``If the government tried to stop us, we`d just carry on our jihad. We do what we want,`` said Abu Samara.

Islam is a religion of peace with solutions to all of today`s political and economic problems. It`s important for us to spread that message because we want one system in the whole world, which, of course, is Islam. And to make Islam dominant, we must do jihad,`` Sayeed, founder of The Center for Islamic Teaching and Guidance explained. ``Today, Western systems are dominant, but they`ve failed to deliver, so people are returning to divine systems.``

The movement`s conspiratorial, even paranoid, mind-set is reflected in its admonition not to drink Coca-Cola, because, it says, the name reflected in a mirror forms the Arabic words ``No Muhammad, No Mecca.``

Most recruits are a byproduct of a crumbling state. More than a million youths are now enrolled in madrasas because of Pakistan`s deteriorating education system and the growing appeal of Islam. A typical madrasa is the Place of Islamic Knowledge and Help, one of dozens in and around Peshawar, the lawless frontier city and gateway to Afghanistan that has long been a refuge for militants. It attracts boys as young as 7.

``Anyone who memorizes the Koran will go to heaven--as will his parents and 10 others,`` said Hamim Ullah, a small 12-year-old dressed in a long blue shirt and white prayer cap. The fourth of 11 children from a tribal family, he memorized all 30 chapters of the Koran in three years.

``A day will come when the Taliban system of ruling is here too. The situation is heading that way,`` Ghulam Murtaza, a Taliban veteran, explained after breaking up a crowd of boys. ``Then the jihad will spread wider. That`s what globalization is really about. Definitely the world will become a village and the whole world will be Islamic. Globalization is making Islam universal.``

``With the failure of all the secular parties and the military, Pakistan is now in a liberation period. It may take five or 10 years to fully liberate the masses. But there`s no alternative for Pakistan now but Islam``, explained Qazi Hussain Ahmed, leader of the Jamaat-i-Islami (one of the mildest of the Islamic parties in Pakistan).

Jamaat has never garnered more than 10 seats in parliament. Yet the party increasingly reflects the views of the silent majority in Pakistan, according to the results of a State Department survey.

The key reason is widespread discontent with the conventional parties that have dominated politics for more than half a century but left Pakistan on the brink of failure as a state--with political instability, debilitating economic woes and a breakdown in law and order. Four military coups haven`t helped.

Says Hamid Gul (retired ISI head), ``Pakistan will go through its own version of an Islamic revolution,`` Gul predicted. ``The army is the last hope. And if the army fails--and it probably will--then people will realize they have to do it themselves, revolt against the system. Everyone sees this on the wall. Because everything else in this country has failed, Islam will have to lead the way.`` The army, he predicted, will probably offer little resistance, mainly because so many of the troops already are sympathetic to the Islamist cause. Throughout the Afghan war, Pakistan`s military had close ties with its Western counterparts. Today, the only senior officer in the government with experience in the West is Gen. Pervez Musharraf.The rank and file have had no firsthand exposure to the West.

Mahmoud Ahmad Ghazi reflects the growing Islamist identity of Pakistan`s military. Ghazi graduated from a madrasa that also produced several Taliban leaders, some of whom were his classmates. Last fall, he was appointed to the ruling National Security Council by the coup leaders. Ghazi said he`s not worried about the ``Talibanization`` of Pakistan. ``Only Islam offers an integrated approach to the totality of human existence. Only Islam is the route to victory``, he explained.



Full story at:

http://www.latimes.com/news/asection/20001228/t000123583.html

ahmadb:#451

Professor cut & Paste,

Are you still espousing your liberal/socialist/secularist agenda by selectively bringing to our attention such gems.

DO you still deny that the muslims are determined to eradicate such kind of farangi philosophies & cultural backwardness from among their midst.The Shariat laws WILL be enforced.It is time to start packing for those who still take pride in being ba ba blacksheep.

Don`t they feel the warm breadth of the lions on their behinds?

__________________________________________________

wassalaam(is it ok to wish you that?)

F-K #428 you write ``We always prosper at someone elses misery.(I just coined it).``

This is not only an obviously wrong statement, it also reflects the same attitude that has caused so much misery in Pakistan: landlords, politicians, as well as bureaucrats and military officials once they come to power start ``making hay while the sun shines``. People in more progressive nations know that in real life, you make hay through hard work not by stealing it. And honest and hard work benefits everyone. They call it a win-win situation which is something that you, and the other baa-baa black sheep you keep referring to, do not understand.

BB’S INTERVIEW

In a recent interview to the News, Benazir Bhutto was asked several questions. I am reproducing only one question and BB’s reply. Comments welcome.

Sincerely, Bilal Ahmad

QUESTION: “If the Military Government approaches you, what quid pro quo will you be willing to offer? Will you accept a National Security Council while providing indemnity in exchange for fair and free elections and transfer of power? Will you accept thekind of conditions you accepted before coming to power in 1988 and 1993? Will you allow amendments in the Constitution? Will you accept elections in 2002? Will you insist on withdrawal ofcases against yourself and Asif Ali Zardari?

BB: When the military approaches the PPP, I will consult alliesand liberal elements before the party takes its final decision.The PPP is on record as having called for the withdrawal of allpolitically motivated cases, the repeal of the NAB [NationalAccountability Bureau] ordinance, a date for elections and theestablishment of an interim government of national consensus.

There are certain other conditions too. Basically the questionarises: is our support being solicited to move towards a changeor is it being solicited to bring a PPP civilian face to anorder which has run the country since 1996 under different facesand run it aground.”

Source: http://www.InformationTimes.com

OUR RHETORIC, OUR SOLUTIONS

In the following letter to the Editor, a Pakistani citizen deplores the violation of his right to exist without fear due to, what he calls, religious slavery. In accepting the need for a revolution (of freedom) from such forces, he asks General Musharraf to curtail the liberties of the religious zealots. Did he propose the best solution of the problem? What solution do you have in your mind?

Sincerly, Bilal Ahmad

Nation under fear
Atiqur Rahman
The Nation, Letter, December 28, 2000

This is with reference to a news item where the correspondent has published a warning from IJT (Islami Jamiat-e-Talaba) against any new year celebrations in the country. Can someone explain why the state has bowed to these religious zealots who are against any type of freedom in the country?

A common citizen thinks that only a revolution will someday save the country. I agree to that. But this revolution will be from a freedom-based organisation against these orthodox, self-centered religious groups who already hold this poor nation under fear and religious slavery.
I suggest the Musharraf government to arrest liberties to these religious groups and protect the lives and properties of the common man. Otherwise, a revolution is inevitable.
What is more un-Islamic; to get together with friends and family, make a resolution and enjoy or to disrupt all that is not yours to intervene and physically harm and harass innocent people minding there own business?

Jhelum

In response to macgupta (Reply # 448)
Dear Arun:

Your statement: ``Of course, a poorly worded questionnaire could easily obtain these results.

My reply: The survey results may depend upon a host of other factors. For example: Who was interviewed, when and where? How representative were the respondants of the total population? What the respondants thought about the actual purpose of the survey? Did the respondants convey their true feelings?

Sincerely, Bilal Ahmad