The Garage School
Shandana Minhas December 18, 2000
#56 Posted by scout on December 22, 2000 11:20:20 pm
slink #41,
well said... but i don`t think it will have an affect on these little kids
well said... but i don`t think it will have an affect on these little kids
reply to this interact
write a new interact
add to favorites
flag objectionable content
#55 Posted by Akash on December 22, 2000 8:01:29 pm
To YLH and all the chowkwallas
Now let us examine the truths of Indian claims Vs Pak claims. The fact is both the parties manipulated the truth and stretched the figures. My own guess is that the actual destruction was almost equal or at least comparable. But then who will tell this to ``bakra of rutgers`` who believes that ``PAF achieved an air superiority over IAF`` in 1965.
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/History/1965War/Chapter10.html
``Pakistan revised its initial figures to claim about 54 aircraft destroyed in one of their official histories, which may be right near the mark. A look at Indian admissions reveals a list of 30 names of pilots who ejected or crashed or were taken POW roughly about twenty were lost against air opposition. We know that 16 aircraft were lost on the ground. It is safe to assume that the IAF lost about 55 aircraft throughout the war, including civilian and aircraft belonging to neutral parties as well as operational accidents.
However it must be stated that war is never so clinical that one can apply formula`s to assess the damage done to the enemy. Truth is always the first casualty of the war. To bolster a nations morale, deliberate untruths are fed into the public, intending to keep both the public as well as the military in high spirits. Admissions of severe setbacks or of inaction against an enemy would invite public anger and the downfall of the respective governments.
Both India as well as Pakistan abides by this style. Thus the Indian public never heard of the retreat to Jaurian, or of the retreat to Khem Karan, while the Pakistani public never hears of its retreat from Wagah, or the battering its armour received at Assal Uttar. The Pakistanis overdo the propaganda by adding incredible and exaggerated claims to the achievements of the military. There is a hint of vagueness and exaggeration on the Indian side too.
``
Now let us examine the truths of Indian claims Vs Pak claims. The fact is both the parties manipulated the truth and stretched the figures. My own guess is that the actual destruction was almost equal or at least comparable. But then who will tell this to ``bakra of rutgers`` who believes that ``PAF achieved an air superiority over IAF`` in 1965.
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/History/1965War/Chapter10.html
``Pakistan revised its initial figures to claim about 54 aircraft destroyed in one of their official histories, which may be right near the mark. A look at Indian admissions reveals a list of 30 names of pilots who ejected or crashed or were taken POW roughly about twenty were lost against air opposition. We know that 16 aircraft were lost on the ground. It is safe to assume that the IAF lost about 55 aircraft throughout the war, including civilian and aircraft belonging to neutral parties as well as operational accidents.
However it must be stated that war is never so clinical that one can apply formula`s to assess the damage done to the enemy. Truth is always the first casualty of the war. To bolster a nations morale, deliberate untruths are fed into the public, intending to keep both the public as well as the military in high spirits. Admissions of severe setbacks or of inaction against an enemy would invite public anger and the downfall of the respective governments.
Both India as well as Pakistan abides by this style. Thus the Indian public never heard of the retreat to Jaurian, or of the retreat to Khem Karan, while the Pakistani public never hears of its retreat from Wagah, or the battering its armour received at Assal Uttar. The Pakistanis overdo the propaganda by adding incredible and exaggerated claims to the achievements of the military. There is a hint of vagueness and exaggeration on the Indian side too.
``
#54 Posted by Akash on December 22, 2000 8:01:29 pm
To YLH and all the chowkwallas
Let me take some more air out of ylh`s absurd claim that PAF enjoyed``complete air dominence in 1965. I am not touching 1971 war as all of us know about its reality,Indians know it open and Pakis accept it in close rooms. It is a well known fact that Pak rulers had always misguided their public by making false and unsubstantiated claims. So here is a comparative study of Pak claims viz-a viz Indian claims.
Note: The following site was recommended by ylh
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/History/1965War/Chapter10.html
Excerpts:
The conclusion of 1965 war
PAKISTANI CLAIMS
``
Pakistani claims of losses inflicted on India, had always needed to be taken with a pinch of salt. There was an element of exaggeration in the figures put forward by the Pakistani Govt., which was more for the consumption of the public rather than any serious analysis. Like the claim of inflicting more than 10,000 dead on Indian casualties, or the occupation of 2000 sq. miles of Indian territory. It also needs to be said, that devoid of wartime hype and hysteria, Pakistan had managed to put forward more credible and conservative claims later on.
......
Looking at the Pakistani claims for the air war, at the end of the war, a government spokesman claimed the destruction of 104 Indian aircraft against 19 lost by the Pakistani Air Force. The break up of the 19 losses include about 13 Sabres, 2 Starfighters and 4 B-57 Canberras. Surprisingly, the loss of the Bell helicopter was not included and was explained away as one incurred by the Army Aviation. Of the 104 Indian aircraft claimed destroyed, the breakup being about 30 air-to-air kills, 34 aircraft destroyed on ground at Indian air bases, the rest falling to anti-aircraft fire.
``
Indian Claims
``India admitted a loss of 35 aircraft to all causes and claimed 73 Pakistani aircraft as destroyed. The breakup for the Pakistani aircraft being 4 F-104s (not counting Devayya`s Starfighter), eight B-57, 47 F-86 (12 in air-to-air combat), two C-130s and the rest, miscellaneous trainers and transport aircraft. It is believed any exaggeration is due more to the claims of the ack-ack guns than the IAF attacks.
A rough breakup would be 13 aircraft claimed in air-to-air combat, another 18 on the ground in the Pakistani airfields and the rest to anti-aircraft fire. Looking at Pakistani admissions some 8 of the air combat kills, A lone Sabre on the ground and about five aircraft to anti-aircraft fire can be verified. It is a huge discrepancy in Indian claims and Pakistani admissions
``
Let me take some more air out of ylh`s absurd claim that PAF enjoyed``complete air dominence in 1965. I am not touching 1971 war as all of us know about its reality,Indians know it open and Pakis accept it in close rooms. It is a well known fact that Pak rulers had always misguided their public by making false and unsubstantiated claims. So here is a comparative study of Pak claims viz-a viz Indian claims.
Note: The following site was recommended by ylh
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/History/1965War/Chapter10.html
Excerpts:
The conclusion of 1965 war
PAKISTANI CLAIMS
``
Pakistani claims of losses inflicted on India, had always needed to be taken with a pinch of salt. There was an element of exaggeration in the figures put forward by the Pakistani Govt., which was more for the consumption of the public rather than any serious analysis. Like the claim of inflicting more than 10,000 dead on Indian casualties, or the occupation of 2000 sq. miles of Indian territory. It also needs to be said, that devoid of wartime hype and hysteria, Pakistan had managed to put forward more credible and conservative claims later on.
......
Looking at the Pakistani claims for the air war, at the end of the war, a government spokesman claimed the destruction of 104 Indian aircraft against 19 lost by the Pakistani Air Force. The break up of the 19 losses include about 13 Sabres, 2 Starfighters and 4 B-57 Canberras. Surprisingly, the loss of the Bell helicopter was not included and was explained away as one incurred by the Army Aviation. Of the 104 Indian aircraft claimed destroyed, the breakup being about 30 air-to-air kills, 34 aircraft destroyed on ground at Indian air bases, the rest falling to anti-aircraft fire.
``
Indian Claims
``India admitted a loss of 35 aircraft to all causes and claimed 73 Pakistani aircraft as destroyed. The breakup for the Pakistani aircraft being 4 F-104s (not counting Devayya`s Starfighter), eight B-57, 47 F-86 (12 in air-to-air combat), two C-130s and the rest, miscellaneous trainers and transport aircraft. It is believed any exaggeration is due more to the claims of the ack-ack guns than the IAF attacks.
A rough breakup would be 13 aircraft claimed in air-to-air combat, another 18 on the ground in the Pakistani airfields and the rest to anti-aircraft fire. Looking at Pakistani admissions some 8 of the air combat kills, A lone Sabre on the ground and about five aircraft to anti-aircraft fire can be verified. It is a huge discrepancy in Indian claims and Pakistani admissions
``
#53 Posted by Akash on December 22, 2000 8:01:29 pm
YLH
``2) Havent the Pakistanis totally given a whooping to India in the two wars in air admittedly by Indian accounts... check Bharat rakshak and remember they played down the numbers?
3) Is it not a fact that in 1965 Pakistan had complete air superiority when it only had 154 aircrafts in total and India had 586?
``
Your claims are not only ridiculous but also outrageous. I have visited the site you talk of. A careful reading of this site along with the ``actual documents of 1965 and 1971 wars`` (mind you, some time back India Today published the actual typoewritten accounts of the war ! ) clarifies the whole situation. In 1965, Indians did not want to escalate the war to naval and air space. Hence Pakistan did get some advantage of surprise attack by PAF initially. Indian army also blundered in not taking IAF into confidence while planning an offensive on Lahore that turned the tide of the battle. However after the initial surprise was over IAF reorganised and wreaked havoc on PAF. Your claims about ``total air superiority`` are plain rubbish.
Secondly, by what stretch of imagination did you assume that PAF dominated the IAF in 1971! Man your country the unprecendented humiliation when 90,000 of your ``brave`` soldiers surrendered before Indian army afraid of being butchered by Indian army. This was probably one of the biggest surrenders in the modern times. Your country was ripped apart into two in two weeks by mighty INDIA. Remember TWO WEEKS. And one of the most important aspects of this battle was the capability of Indian helicopters to drop the soldiers behind enemy lines, something that enemy didn`t have. This helped in cordoning off the Paki battalions and smashing them easily. If results bear any testimony, it was an example of ``total defeat`` and ``abject humiliation``of a nation. Indira Gandhi after the victory, announced that ``I have slapped on the face of TNT``.
Since 1971, the gap between India and Pakistani military might has been widening at a fast rate. Now India has outpaced Pakis by many times. India and China are the only two superpowers left in Asia with the others including Pakistan far-far behind.
P.S In case you think that nuclear strike is a deterrent against another nuclear power, India, I would say who are you trying to fool. Had it been true Pak would not be crying hoarse over increased military spending by India. If pakistan launches a nuclear strike against India in desperation, the disproportionately large counter retaliatory strike by India would completely annihilate Pakistan from the face of the earth. So every one knows nuclear strike is a non-option.
``2) Havent the Pakistanis totally given a whooping to India in the two wars in air admittedly by Indian accounts... check Bharat rakshak and remember they played down the numbers?
3) Is it not a fact that in 1965 Pakistan had complete air superiority when it only had 154 aircrafts in total and India had 586?
``
Your claims are not only ridiculous but also outrageous. I have visited the site you talk of. A careful reading of this site along with the ``actual documents of 1965 and 1971 wars`` (mind you, some time back India Today published the actual typoewritten accounts of the war ! ) clarifies the whole situation. In 1965, Indians did not want to escalate the war to naval and air space. Hence Pakistan did get some advantage of surprise attack by PAF initially. Indian army also blundered in not taking IAF into confidence while planning an offensive on Lahore that turned the tide of the battle. However after the initial surprise was over IAF reorganised and wreaked havoc on PAF. Your claims about ``total air superiority`` are plain rubbish.
Secondly, by what stretch of imagination did you assume that PAF dominated the IAF in 1971! Man your country the unprecendented humiliation when 90,000 of your ``brave`` soldiers surrendered before Indian army afraid of being butchered by Indian army. This was probably one of the biggest surrenders in the modern times. Your country was ripped apart into two in two weeks by mighty INDIA. Remember TWO WEEKS. And one of the most important aspects of this battle was the capability of Indian helicopters to drop the soldiers behind enemy lines, something that enemy didn`t have. This helped in cordoning off the Paki battalions and smashing them easily. If results bear any testimony, it was an example of ``total defeat`` and ``abject humiliation``of a nation. Indira Gandhi after the victory, announced that ``I have slapped on the face of TNT``.
Since 1971, the gap between India and Pakistani military might has been widening at a fast rate. Now India has outpaced Pakis by many times. India and China are the only two superpowers left in Asia with the others including Pakistan far-far behind.
P.S In case you think that nuclear strike is a deterrent against another nuclear power, India, I would say who are you trying to fool. Had it been true Pak would not be crying hoarse over increased military spending by India. If pakistan launches a nuclear strike against India in desperation, the disproportionately large counter retaliatory strike by India would completely annihilate Pakistan from the face of the earth. So every one knows nuclear strike is a non-option.
#52 Posted by Zahra on December 22, 2000 5:21:48 pm
Post # 15(Adnan)
``But what irks me is the title of the article.And its emphasis in the end.Schools definitely should not discriminate on the basis of religion.But at the same time basic education should inculcate values and these stem from religion.So while we should be tolerant we should not DENY that ISLAM is the only true religion and that all other religions are in our view false and misleading.``
The above just struck a chord! I have only browsed through the article and it`s indeed worth appreciating the efforts being made by the masses to promote education and besides that to have a concrete objective in life.
I think you`ve missed the author`s background intro. When one is from a minority in Pakistan, all the more reason that will come forth in one`s writings. I also dislike her underlying references that are very obvious to the ones who can see, but on the same hand, it can be a very uncomfortable position to be in. It`s hard to be saintly!
Lest you forget, all religions do not produce practitioners. Some are born under that umbrella and some acquire that later in their lives. It`s all an individual`s effort: the extent of their practice. It would have been an ideal state to imagine that all the believers would take whatever is given to them literally and abide by the teachings whole-heartedly. Somehow, the real world is very different from the ideal state.
Lastly, the crux of the matter was to enlighten the readers that a noble gesture does not need to discriminate based on religions. And it is valid point!
Take Care,
``But what irks me is the title of the article.And its emphasis in the end.Schools definitely should not discriminate on the basis of religion.But at the same time basic education should inculcate values and these stem from religion.So while we should be tolerant we should not DENY that ISLAM is the only true religion and that all other religions are in our view false and misleading.``
The above just struck a chord! I have only browsed through the article and it`s indeed worth appreciating the efforts being made by the masses to promote education and besides that to have a concrete objective in life.
I think you`ve missed the author`s background intro. When one is from a minority in Pakistan, all the more reason that will come forth in one`s writings. I also dislike her underlying references that are very obvious to the ones who can see, but on the same hand, it can be a very uncomfortable position to be in. It`s hard to be saintly!
Lest you forget, all religions do not produce practitioners. Some are born under that umbrella and some acquire that later in their lives. It`s all an individual`s effort: the extent of their practice. It would have been an ideal state to imagine that all the believers would take whatever is given to them literally and abide by the teachings whole-heartedly. Somehow, the real world is very different from the ideal state.
Lastly, the crux of the matter was to enlighten the readers that a noble gesture does not need to discriminate based on religions. And it is valid point!
Take Care,
#51 Posted by shankar on December 22, 2000 10:34:38 am
slink,
#41
Beautifully said! Every classroom has these disruptive kids who deserve a good smack in the butt with a ruler.
#41
Beautifully said! Every classroom has these disruptive kids who deserve a good smack in the butt with a ruler.
#50 Posted by farangi_kush on December 22, 2000 10:34:38 am
Shandana:#41
That was nice! Model planes supposedly of paper too;_)
There was this 8 or 10 year old child.He was a goat herder and the animals belonged to the villagers.
Everyday,he would stand outside the open-air class of the local primary school and tried to figure out what was being taught.
One day,the teacher,seeing his interest in learning,invited him in and that was the day his life changed for ever.
He passed his 8th grade provincial exam and was awarded a scholarship and after the matriculation his parents were not in a position to send the child to Lahore.
An arrangement was made.He was given room & board in a local mosque near Data Durbar in exhange for housekeeping & running errands.
As destiny would have it,someone needed something translated from farsi to english.He was also in a hurry.The assignment was given to this boy.
But the guys who wanted the job done were in a hurry & were always on the move.Some interesting events were afoot,political,in Afghanistan.The guys were Afghans and their moves were part of a grandplan.
So the young man became a part of their mission.
Eventually,he ended up in Kabul as scretary to the Amir of Kabul and,some say,as the advisor & prime minister to the Amir of Kabul.
Events were churning & bubbling with a frenzy.Some intrigues & impending overthrows dramatically saw this young man become Afghanistan`s ambassador to England while still a student at oxford.Prince Edward(v11)& others being his chums.
Returned to Afghanistan and after a few years was advised to leave and return to Sialkot and establish his private law practice there.
He was none other than Sultan Mohammed Khan.
Father of Faiz Ahmad Faiz.
__________________________________________________
wassalaam.
That was nice! Model planes supposedly of paper too;_)
There was this 8 or 10 year old child.He was a goat herder and the animals belonged to the villagers.
Everyday,he would stand outside the open-air class of the local primary school and tried to figure out what was being taught.
One day,the teacher,seeing his interest in learning,invited him in and that was the day his life changed for ever.
He passed his 8th grade provincial exam and was awarded a scholarship and after the matriculation his parents were not in a position to send the child to Lahore.
An arrangement was made.He was given room & board in a local mosque near Data Durbar in exhange for housekeeping & running errands.
As destiny would have it,someone needed something translated from farsi to english.He was also in a hurry.The assignment was given to this boy.
But the guys who wanted the job done were in a hurry & were always on the move.Some interesting events were afoot,political,in Afghanistan.The guys were Afghans and their moves were part of a grandplan.
So the young man became a part of their mission.
Eventually,he ended up in Kabul as scretary to the Amir of Kabul and,some say,as the advisor & prime minister to the Amir of Kabul.
Events were churning & bubbling with a frenzy.Some intrigues & impending overthrows dramatically saw this young man become Afghanistan`s ambassador to England while still a student at oxford.Prince Edward(v11)& others being his chums.
Returned to Afghanistan and after a few years was advised to leave and return to Sialkot and establish his private law practice there.
He was none other than Sultan Mohammed Khan.
Father of Faiz Ahmad Faiz.
__________________________________________________
wassalaam.
#48 Posted by Harpreet on December 22, 2000 10:34:38 am
Solitude,
Believe me Solitude I know all about the issues you are talking about. I just didnt want to discuss them because I was`nt in the mood. I wanted to talk about Shandana`s article.The Sikh/Muslim relationship is more complicated, more acute even than Hindu / Muslim relationship.
Please refer to my conversations with ylh on the
``Soft Option by Farzana Versey`` board, starting from reply #212, re: Khalistan/Pakistan.
I know all about communal tensions between Indians/Pakistanis in the UK because I grew up here, and my girlfriend is Pakistani. Believe me, we live it every day of our lives, she has been spat on, threatened with rape, it is not easy. And I have been told not to bring ``sulla`` blood into my family, so with all due respect Solitude dont take that lecturing accusatory tone of voice with me, just because I did not feel in the mood to discuss this particular issue at this particular time.
In fact, I know what is said in the drawing rooms of Muslims in Britain about Sikhs. I have been present when a picture of Guru Nanak was defaced by a young Mirpuri who didnt know my background.
But Solitude, we are not innocent. You should hear some of the things said about ``sullay``, ``pakis`` and ``sister-f * * * * *s`` at Sikh gatherings, Bhangra concerts etc. I stopped going. I have had enough hatred to fill my whole life. So I try and make friends, and I close my ears to it all....... a pointless strategy? who cares, right now all I care about is me and my girl.
I just wanted to talk about this article in question, that was all.
regards,
Harpreet
ps: slink I apologise for saying these things on your board
Believe me Solitude I know all about the issues you are talking about. I just didnt want to discuss them because I was`nt in the mood. I wanted to talk about Shandana`s article.The Sikh/Muslim relationship is more complicated, more acute even than Hindu / Muslim relationship.
Please refer to my conversations with ylh on the
``Soft Option by Farzana Versey`` board, starting from reply #212, re: Khalistan/Pakistan.
I know all about communal tensions between Indians/Pakistanis in the UK because I grew up here, and my girlfriend is Pakistani. Believe me, we live it every day of our lives, she has been spat on, threatened with rape, it is not easy. And I have been told not to bring ``sulla`` blood into my family, so with all due respect Solitude dont take that lecturing accusatory tone of voice with me, just because I did not feel in the mood to discuss this particular issue at this particular time.
In fact, I know what is said in the drawing rooms of Muslims in Britain about Sikhs. I have been present when a picture of Guru Nanak was defaced by a young Mirpuri who didnt know my background.
But Solitude, we are not innocent. You should hear some of the things said about ``sullay``, ``pakis`` and ``sister-f * * * * *s`` at Sikh gatherings, Bhangra concerts etc. I stopped going. I have had enough hatred to fill my whole life. So I try and make friends, and I close my ears to it all....... a pointless strategy? who cares, right now all I care about is me and my girl.
I just wanted to talk about this article in question, that was all.
regards,
Harpreet
ps: slink I apologise for saying these things on your board
#47 Posted by krashid on December 22, 2000 10:34:38 am
Solitude!
Your remarks regarding PAF or armed forces being racist, sexist etc may be right. I also know Batman are treated in the great tradition of Islam:) and one person told me that they are sometimes sexually abused also.
As far as greatly disillusioned M.M. Alam. Last time he came to our college in 1984 or so was as a great Muslim scholar and preacher. If you are talking about later I don`t know.
May God guide you. You are treading the path of destruction for yourself. In your last post you said Prayer is a form of indoctrination. If you have ever suffered in your life, you would be knowing that prayer is a great strength in times of severe crises rather than indoctrination. In daily life it is also helps prevent go astray.
As far as your assertion that adopted son`s wife was allowed only for prophet PBUH, you are wrong. Also they are not true sons legally meaning in inheritance etc. One of the reason given is that it was a strong tradition for adopted sons to be treated as real sons in Arabian society and this action shattered it forever for Muslims. But other narration also suggest that wife of Zaid bin Harris (and probably also a relative of Prophet PBUH) was not happy with her marriage with Zaid.
May God help you and guide you from path of destruction to a path of serene soul.
As far as article. There are lot of small projects in Pakistan like these and are providing some solace to the down trodden.
Your remarks regarding PAF or armed forces being racist, sexist etc may be right. I also know Batman are treated in the great tradition of Islam:) and one person told me that they are sometimes sexually abused also.
As far as greatly disillusioned M.M. Alam. Last time he came to our college in 1984 or so was as a great Muslim scholar and preacher. If you are talking about later I don`t know.
May God guide you. You are treading the path of destruction for yourself. In your last post you said Prayer is a form of indoctrination. If you have ever suffered in your life, you would be knowing that prayer is a great strength in times of severe crises rather than indoctrination. In daily life it is also helps prevent go astray.
As far as your assertion that adopted son`s wife was allowed only for prophet PBUH, you are wrong. Also they are not true sons legally meaning in inheritance etc. One of the reason given is that it was a strong tradition for adopted sons to be treated as real sons in Arabian society and this action shattered it forever for Muslims. But other narration also suggest that wife of Zaid bin Harris (and probably also a relative of Prophet PBUH) was not happy with her marriage with Zaid.
May God help you and guide you from path of destruction to a path of serene soul.
As far as article. There are lot of small projects in Pakistan like these and are providing some solace to the down trodden.
#46 Posted by ylh on December 22, 2000 10:34:38 am
Again I dont wanna be misquoted.
The site says that it is a joint venture of the Pakistan Defence and PIADS right. However it is not a Military site but a civilian site. No doubt it is someone who is associated with PIADS who sanctioned this however it is not in anyway providing any service to potential users of PIADS. PIADS doesnot have an open recruit policy. The invitation is a select few... ofcourse Yeager once attended PIADS as a visiting instructor and believe me he didnt find anything wrong with the English of the Pakistanis... not to mention their flying skills.
PIADS has top pilots from Pakistan (on F 16 and Mirages), Turkey, China, Romania, Saudi Arabia and the Arab World. Back in 1980s we are well aware of the Israeli Pilots who attended PIADS also.
Yasser Latif Hamdani
The site says that it is a joint venture of the Pakistan Defence and PIADS right. However it is not a Military site but a civilian site. No doubt it is someone who is associated with PIADS who sanctioned this however it is not in anyway providing any service to potential users of PIADS. PIADS doesnot have an open recruit policy. The invitation is a select few... ofcourse Yeager once attended PIADS as a visiting instructor and believe me he didnt find anything wrong with the English of the Pakistanis... not to mention their flying skills.
PIADS has top pilots from Pakistan (on F 16 and Mirages), Turkey, China, Romania, Saudi Arabia and the Arab World. Back in 1980s we are well aware of the Israeli Pilots who attended PIADS also.
Yasser Latif Hamdani
#45 Posted by ylh on December 22, 2000 10:34:38 am
Friend I hope you are aware that the PIADS site is not an official Pakistan Air Force site... but just a PAF Buff! who made the site.
So please grow up now?
So please grow up now?
#44 Posted by ylh on December 22, 2000 12:32:38 am
And before you start about little knowledge ...
I can assure you I know more than enough... Do you even know me....
How are the things that I have stated indicative of my supposed little knowledge???
1) Dont the Pakistanis have the fastest conversion rate on the F 16 out of all the Airforces that have used the Airforce?
2) Havent the Pakistanis totally given a whooping to India in the two wars in air admittedly by Indian accounts... check Bharat rakshak and remember they played down the numbers?
3) Is it not a fact that in 1965 Pakistan had complete air superiority when it only had 154 aircrafts in total and India had 586?
I am not arguing that Pakistan is weak today, but bravery courage and valor are not measured by strength or technological might....
When you get a chance, try reading Jane Defense weekly`s analysis of the Pakistan Air Force...
I can assure you I know more than enough... Do you even know me....
How are the things that I have stated indicative of my supposed little knowledge???
1) Dont the Pakistanis have the fastest conversion rate on the F 16 out of all the Airforces that have used the Airforce?
2) Havent the Pakistanis totally given a whooping to India in the two wars in air admittedly by Indian accounts... check Bharat rakshak and remember they played down the numbers?
3) Is it not a fact that in 1965 Pakistan had complete air superiority when it only had 154 aircrafts in total and India had 586?
I am not arguing that Pakistan is weak today, but bravery courage and valor are not measured by strength or technological might....
When you get a chance, try reading Jane Defense weekly`s analysis of the Pakistan Air Force...
#43 Posted by ylh on December 22, 2000 12:32:38 am
Akash,
No one is denying the fact that India with its vast resources at its disposal will overcome Pakistan. I believe we were talking about the skill level and the professionalism of Pakistan.
Ofcourse with the 3 to 1 Pilot to cockpit ratio we will successfuly defend ourselves in a short term war. By the way the article is not so unbiased after all.
In any event, that is why we have the nuclear bomb. What do you do when a pack of rabid dogs attack you... you shoot them!
Yasser Latif Hamdani
PS Had you noticed I had not made it an India vs Pakistan thing ... I had merely put the biography of Chuck Yeager up who continues to hold the PAF in great regard... remember the kind of analysis that you put is exactly what they said about the vietnamese... but look what happened there....
No one is denying the fact that India with its vast resources at its disposal will overcome Pakistan. I believe we were talking about the skill level and the professionalism of Pakistan.
Ofcourse with the 3 to 1 Pilot to cockpit ratio we will successfuly defend ourselves in a short term war. By the way the article is not so unbiased after all.
In any event, that is why we have the nuclear bomb. What do you do when a pack of rabid dogs attack you... you shoot them!
Yasser Latif Hamdani
PS Had you noticed I had not made it an India vs Pakistan thing ... I had merely put the biography of Chuck Yeager up who continues to hold the PAF in great regard... remember the kind of analysis that you put is exactly what they said about the vietnamese... but look what happened there....
#42 Posted by slink on December 21, 2000 11:54:05 pm
SOLITUDE, FRIEND, YLH, AKASH....
THIS IS AN ARTICLE ABOUT EDUCATION FOR ALL. STOP ACTING LIKE CHILDREN AND LET INTERACTORS INTERESTED IN THE ISSUE PRESENTED COMMUNICATE WITH EACH OTHER WITHOUT MODEL PLANES WHIZZING OVER THEIR HEADS.
shanana
THIS IS AN ARTICLE ABOUT EDUCATION FOR ALL. STOP ACTING LIKE CHILDREN AND LET INTERACTORS INTERESTED IN THE ISSUE PRESENTED COMMUNICATE WITH EACH OTHER WITHOUT MODEL PLANES WHIZZING OVER THEIR HEADS.
shanana
#41 Posted by Akash on December 21, 2000 10:05:58 pm
YLH
Here are some more details about the ``Great PAF``.
And dont forget to read the conclusion. Do you know about the composition of IAF with respect to PAF. Do you know the FACT THAT PAF has only 38 F-16 plus a few more aircrafts with ``look down shoot down`` capability against more than 300 such Indian aircrafts. You have little knowledge about the actual strength(or weakness) of PAF. In its present state PAF will not be able to defend Pak against IAF for, at the most, a couple of days.
http://www.alphalink.com.au/
Here are some more details about the ``Great PAF``.
And dont forget to read the conclusion. Do you know about the composition of IAF with respect to PAF. Do you know the FACT THAT PAF has only 38 F-16 plus a few more aircrafts with ``look down shoot down`` capability against more than 300 such Indian aircrafts. You have little knowledge about the actual strength(or weakness) of PAF. In its present state PAF will not be able to defend Pak against IAF for, at the most, a couple of days.
http://www.alphalink.com.au/
Interact Index
Latest Interacts
- KHYBER: Instead of arguing,lets put... NRO Is Just a
- HisExcellency: AZ mole diesel.. just... NRO Is Just a
- Ravi_Kopra: What choice? Can any Abdullah,... Crowning of a Crony
- Diesel: punjabi mole hi ex... NRO Is Just a
- HisExcellency: re: Agha Amin wrote: "NRO... NRO Is Just a
- Mr.India: Breaking News: Vajpayee,... The Jehadi Frankenstein
- Mr.India: Vajpayee, Advani pseudo-moderates, Liberhan... The Jehadi Frankenstein
- Diesel: so mulla omar was... Crowning of a Crony
