The Garage School

i found the address in one of the replies...

Thanks

Asim

Hi,

This is not exactly interaction, but I just wanted to find out, how to get in touch with Shabina Mustafa, I think I could do some things here to play my two-bits worth of part for garage school venture.

I don`t know how to contact the author directly, so I guess this could work.

Thanks

Asim

Kabuli,

I think the idea behind the praise is more towards the fact that she is helping the poor and uneducated, how people praise her is one, besides the point, and two, as long as she helps make a difference to any unfortunate uneducated individual it makes the required difference.

This article was not about Sikh`s, Hindu`s, Muslim`s and so forth, it was about the fact that somebody is doing something for the great good and not solely thinking for themselves to achieve any selfish thought or idea.

The majority of the articles on Chowk have replies and interactions on ideas completely irrelevant to the article and the intention behind it.

Don`t worry about it.

p.s. I just gulp down NyQuil whether I need it or not to fall asleep!!

Cheers

re: slink

I first read this article in The Friday Times and was like, holyshit, there are Sikhs in Karachi...but one thing has been annoying me ever since the article has come on Chowk...in the interactions, many people have praised Shabina Mustafa for not being prejudiced against non-Muslim kids INSPITE of her losing her husband in one of the wars...I think Mrs. Mustafa is an honourable Pakistani for doing what she is doing...but should she be praised FOR helping non-Muslim kids?...aren`t they Pakistani too?...so what does it matter if she helps out PAKISTANI non-Muslim kids?...her husband was killed by the Indian military and not by non-Muslims of Pakistan...this is not meant to show disrespect to Mrs. Mustafa, nor would I care to comment on anything about Pakistan, but the logic some of the interactors have applied has been bugging me and giving me sleepless nights

regards

Kabuli

Greetings -

Solitude,

Like Shandana said in one of her responses, this article is simply about education. It is an effort to help the unfortunate -

Your concepts of Islam and the sheer belief that it is a cult of sorts, also leads one to beleive that you really have little knowledge of what the religion is all about.

Regardless, you have a right to your thought, beleive what makes you happy.

There is no old and new religion, yes it`s true one should progress with time and alot of ideas were set in, back in the days when people were half lunatics and pulled a knife on the smallest of things. It however should not lead one to beleive that Islam promotes the concept or brain-washes one to abide by any such idea.

``Is it human nature to kill ? No.`` To an extent Yes, it is. survival of the fittest applies to all life forms!!

``It is religion, sectarianism, social pressure, communal anger, collectivism in particular that gives birth to violence and evil.``

We tend to define our black, white and grey areas. That is what leads us to our beleif`s and judgment of each other. Religion does not promote violence, you will find extremism in all religions and societies. You will find violence and evil all around you. It is not Islam, it is not Christianity nor is it hinduism.

Waco - Texas to the Uni-bomber, everbody has the good and bad.

``Is it human nature to force people into converting to Islam ? Is it human nature to rape women and treat them as ``anfal`` (war booty) ? Is it human nature to genitally mutilate girls and children ? Is it human nature to discriminate ?``

Like I said. You have your concepts all severely mutillated and grossly exagerated. Not to say such atrocities donot take place, but please keep Islam out of it. It makes you look a little silly.

Do study the art of war, do read Bruce Lee`s works, you`ll realize the techniques of meditation and prayer and so forth, do exist outside of Islam.

All forms of discipline and guidance and patience not only are promoted by Islam, but many look to it as a way of life.

The concepts behind the ideas you`ve listed below are rather stretched and surely an image you`ve painted for Islam in your own head. ``Speaking in tongues``, is however the most amusing, since Arabic is in front of it. Is`nt any language second to your mother - ``tongue`` - a foreign second language and thus classified as a ``tongue``.

``Mind-numbing techniques (such as meditation (prayers), chanting (tasbeeh), speaking in tongues (arabic), denunciation sessions (anti -west propaganda , anti hypocrite , anti non muslim), debilitating work routines (fasting, 5 time prayers etc.) are used to suppress doubts about the group and its leader(s).``

All are ideas promoted by extremists and to an extent educated fools who`ve become fundamentalists. NOT part of Islam, NOT promoted by Islam, and not accepted by the norm.

You definitely seem to be set in your ideas. Hope you can open your mind at some point and consider the bigger picture.

Life is too short and ``in the long run, we`re all dead anyways!!`` Get over it. You seem too stressed.

Cheers

shankar #65, ``many dentists are struggling because they have been too successful in their efforts in promoting oral hygene. Fewer people have cavities & hence lesser work for the profession.``

Yes, lesser cavities BUT thanks to cosmetic dentistry, orthodontics, the prevalence of gum disease, and preventative dentistry, dentists still make a living. It`s not all about cavities. Thank God.

Sorry Shandana, just had to correct Dr. Shankar`s notions.

Umairr,

It has been suggested that in the US, many dentists are struggling because they have been too successful in their efforts in promoting oral hygene. Fewer people have cavities & hence lesser work for the profession. Fortunately, human nature as it is, we shrinks will never starve, no matter how bad we are:)

Yes you are right in saying that cyberspace should not be controlled. However, no matter how wonderful the concept of freedom is, you will agree that there have to be some modicum of rules. Now we can disagree as to where those lines ought to be drawn.

One can argue that vulgarity & profanity is freedom of expression. However, I agree that the Chowk staff has to set rules in that regard. In the same vein, I think that the author of the article should be given a choice to moderate discussions. If the author feels that the posts should be confined to the topic at hand, then I feel it should be his/her perogative to do so--especially if the direction of postings are annoyingly distracting.

On the other hand, if the author prefers not to participate or doesnt mind where the discussion could lead, then it is his/her perogative as well. I feel we posters should give the author at least that level of respect.

Shandana`s fervent appeal in uppercase letters meant to me that she found those distractions annoying. Then I wish those overzealous posters would show some modicum of respect for her feelings.

If I understand her article correctly, she is relating a story of one wise & brave woman`s contribution to society. Shabina Mustafa suffered a tragedy 30 yrs ago by war (a human tragedy). Yet she turned that tragedy into a triumph by bringing children of all faiths toghether in order to make them better human beings. She`s honored her husband`s sacrifice by these actions. If that is Shandana`s message to us, this useless bickering between PAF/IAF is an affront to the message.

{{The only improvement I can think of is for the Chowk staff to create permanent threads on issues like India/Pakistan etc., for people who are bent on briging these up everywhere.}}

You just finished pointing that out it would be an excercise in futility. Those bigots will bring it up even if the article was titled ``Why tea is better than coffee``:)

shankar #50: I am still undecided on whether it is a good or bad idea to moderate and control replies, on an open medium like the Internet. If for no other reason, because it is impossible to do so.

Discussions on any subject will always take on lives and sub-lives of their own, depending on the people who are interacting. Should this be discouraged, or encouraged? Or perhaps, neither should be done. If someone wants to turn an article on the finer points of Lata`s voice, into a contest between India and Pakistan, then I would have to say, they should be allowed to do so. Similarly, if an article on education turns into a discussion on airplanes, that should also neither be encouraged nor discouraged.

People will comment on what they are interested in. And regardless of how much one yells at them one cannot control them; at least not in cyberspace. Nor should one try to. One word in any article can start off a debate on something that has nothing to do with the article. More than likely, most replies turn into threads of their own, spawning off furthur baby threads.

This is the beauty of the freedom of expression on the Internet. No one controls anyone. And I think, if an attempt to is made to moderate this freedom, the freedom may end up disappearing.

I would have to say the Chowk Staff has adapted the correct policy regarding the above: they reject replies with vulgarity, but let everything else be printed, even if it has nothing to do with the article.

The only improvement I can think of is for the Chowk staff to create permanent threads on issues like India/Pakistan etc., for people who are bent on briging these up everywhere. Apart from that, I think people should be allowed to comment, at will. If someone does not like a discussion another individual is partaking in, all he/she has to do is to not read the reply.

The above, of course, will lead to a lot of replies which have nothing to do with the article. This can be very annoying. However, in my opinion, that is still better than moderating replies, to point to only the basic theme of the article; especially since each article actually contains many themes (some which even the author of the article may not have noticed).

For example, for me, apart from the garage school, another interesting theme in this article, is the background of its founder (mentioned briefly by the author, herself). Should I comment on it, or should I not? Following my own rule of more discussions (even unrelated and/or annoying ones) being generally better than fewer discussions, I have commented. This has lead to a debate on Air Forces, having nothing to do with the article, alongside a debate on the school itself. Should the former debate be halted, and only the later be allowed to proceed? Or should both be allowed to proceed, with the readers, concentrating on the one they are interested in and ignoring the other one?

Annoying as this mode of reasoning maybe, I would have to say, to avoid the first stages of a, ``Farenheit 451`` type situation, both should be allowed to go on.

Besides, if everyone in the world became disciplined enough to follow the straight and narrow, psychiatrists would go out of business :-)

This reply doesn`t have much to do with this article.

Solitude #8: I have read all your comments, on various threads, with great interest, in an effort to figure out whether you genuinely have valid points, or if you are just trying to impose your own dissatisfactions on certain issues related to religion, etc. onto others. Since discussions on historical and religious issues can be somewhat subjective, it becomes difficult to decide one way or the other (and I am not a religious or social scholar).

However, I do have some expertise on the points you have mentioned in reply #8. In my opinion, what you have mentioned there is about as severe a distortion of fact, as possible. Based on that, I would have to assume that you see religion as a problem for everyone, not only yourself. As long as one keeps this to a personal level, it is all right. However, when you use this to spread disinformation, I think it becomes offensive.

``I grew up on PAF bases around Pakistan``

Growing up around bases does not really give one too much insight to the functioning of the military organization. I grew up around military bases as well, however I only figured out how the military (PAF, Army, PNS) functions after I joined the military.

``PAF is the most racist, sexist and prejudiced Air Force.``

Although none of the organizations in Pakistan would be considered model equal rights organizations according to the international standards, the PAF comes about as close as possible. I found it to be far less biased and racist than the normal Pakistani society.

``My father himself left the PAF early on in his career because he was not a Punjabi (even though he spoke Punjabi fluently and grew up in Lower Topa Muree and then Sarghoda and Sialkot).``

Actually, the PAF on the whole is run by Pathans, not Punjabis. A majority of the fighter pilots are Pathans. And fighter pilots in the PAF, get almost all the senior positions. I believe three of the last four Chiefs were Pathans. So being a Punjabi doesn`t put one in the majority group. I was a non-Pathan, and never felt an ounce of ethnic discrimination.

I would be very interested in knowing your fathers` name. There are around 400 or so active fighter pilots in the PAF. The total number of retired and active fighter pilots is probably less one thousand. I know, have read about, or have heard about, around half of them. Could you pass on your father`s name? Maybe I know him, or have heard of him.

``You can forget about the walls thick with Islamic prejudice that are put up to prevent Qadianis (Ahmedis), Shias (``khatmals``), Mohajirs and non Muslims like Christians etc.``

There is only one area where a wall has been put up in the PAF, as far as progress goes. Unfortunately, the Chief will only be a Shia or a Sunni. This I believe has become an unwritten rule. However, this has been imposed by the civilian leadership of Pakistan, and not by the military itself. It is more an indication of the lack of tolerance in the Pakistani society, rather than the Pakistan military.

``Sure it suits the PAF quite well to have Christians dying for them -instead of their own sons.``

By a gigantic ratio, the most Shaheeds in the PAF have been Muslims. For the simple reason, that most of the fighter pilots are Muslim. This is because most of the people in Pakistan are Muslims. The Christian, whose name I mentioned in an earlier reply, was actually a squadron commander, in 1971. So he probably had more Muslims die for him (his subordinates), rather than vice versa.

``MM Alam today is amongst the most severely disillusioned men ?``

I have met MM Alam, and heard him speak, also. We were stationed at the same base once, as well. He was forced to resign from the PAF, because he did not get along with the Chief, and used to openly criticize him (something forbidden in any military). He then became a sort of a born-again Muslim, and actually volunteered and fought in Afghanistan against the Soviets. He is now, I believe, quite religious. One could say he is disillusioned or very well-illusioned, depending on one`s views of religion.

``a long time ago when the RAF trained our men``

The RAF never trained the men of the PAF. The moment Pakistan was created, Jinnah personally inaugurated the PAF Academy (a few months before he died). So the RAF only trained the pilots who originally belonged to the pre-partition Indian Air Force. After the formation of Pakistan, all the officers were trained by the PAF (or the RPAF, as it was known at that time). As a tradition, every year one or two cadets went to England for training. A few odd times, ten or so went to flying clubs there and in the US, during the middle of their training. However, Pakistan has always trained its own pilots and officers, since inception. It is way way too expensive to send complete batches of cadets for flying training to another country.

``There was a time when the Pakistan Air Force was indeed blind to prejudice a long time ago...PAF was run according to the Britain`s Manual.``

The PAF is still running, by and large, on the British Manual (with some additions from the USAF manual, and the Pakistani manual). The official language of aviation (and the PAF) is English. The rank structure, even the uniforms, traditions, parade formations etc., is still almost identically British. Even the PAF Law Manual is based on British military law, with a few modifications.

``Today with our madrasahs teeming with Mujahids the gentleman soldier is becoming extinct.``

I never met a single officer in the PAF who came from a Madrassah (not that I have anything against or for Madrassahs). I would be interested in finding out if you could name some pilots who went to a madrassah. I think it would be very difficult for a person educated in a Madrassah to make it into the PAF, because the selection process is heavily weighted towards the English language and Mathematical skills (required for Aeronautical Engg. and flying). All the selection tests are in English. Even applicant`s English public speaking skills are tested. I am not familiar with too many Madrassah`s that emphasize English.

``The Ahmedis hid their identities from fear of persecution - my father named all ``suspected`` Ahmedis and was instrumental in the ruination of many families.``

This is more an indication of a fault in one person`s personality, rather than a problem in an institution. There are people in the USA who hate South Asians. That doesn`t mean every American hates South Asians. There have also been phases in recent US history, when certain ethnic groups have been targeted in certain areas. There are good and bad individuals, and good and bad phases in every organization. However, one bad apple or one bad day, neither destroy nor defines the whole orchard. By the way, the Chief during the 1971 ware was an Ahmedi. I have met him a couple of times, and he is still very well respected. He regularly writes on defense issues in the Nation newspaper.

``Today in the PAF men like my father thrive (him and all his friends who are very devout Muslims.``

There will always be bad people who thrive in any organization. However, the bad people who thrive in the Pakistan military, don`t do so because of religion. In fact the most secure club, through which low merit officers have managed to thrive, is the drinking club. Exactly the opposite of what you have described. Drinking buddies have a long history of being promoted in most militaries, including Pakistan`s.

``Men who refuse to shave their beards``

You will very rarely find any fighter pilot, in any Air Force, who has a long beard. The reason is that it is very difficult, if not impossible, to wear the chin strap of the flying helmet, and the oxygen mask, around a beard. In fact, very few fighter pilots have even small beards. This is because a pilot`s face can get quite sweaty during flying (specially in some of the older planes, with bad air-conditioning). A sweaty beard is a great irritant while one is flying. Of the few hundred PAF pilots I have met in my life, only one had a long beard (3 to 4 inches). I never figured out how he was able to handle the irritation during flying. One out of a few hundred, however.

``come to my father for help with convincing their wives to put on the veil and for counseling on how best to order their wives to stop driving.``

I don`t personally have anything against very religious or very non-religious people. I don`t judge a person`s character by the lack or excess of facial hair (ZZ Top, the rock band, have beards longer than any religious fanatic I ever met). I also do not judge a female by the lack or excess of clothing. However, the description you have given of the current PAF officers is exactly the opposite of my experience. Having grown up and trained with so many of them, I can only smile at your portrayal of their views. Some of the times we spent together, during our younger days, would make most of my Americans frat brothers (of college days) blush. I am definitely more conservative then most of them. This does not necessarily make them good or bad people, however it does point out the inaccuracies in your description.

There are many many problems with the PAF, Navy, and Army. These should be pointed out and discussed. However, you have not hit on a single one of them (apart from pointing to a brief phase after 1971 when officers assumed to have pro-Bangladeshi views may have been targeted; this point has some accuracy). I am afraid I will have to conclude that you are using your personal views, and the effect religion has had on you, to misinform everyone. Your personal outlook on life is your business, however it is unethical to spread misinformation regarding other people`s views.

harpeet,

don`t worry about it..you had a valid reason :)

scout,

you`re right :)

Suggestion#2:
Chowk Staff SHOULD start thinking of adding an additional feature in the little ``interact`` window, saying ``Edit Feature.`` Just a thought for 2001!

Suggestion#1:

As the Garage School has started focusing towards the education of the kids in the neighborhood, it is very important that these kids have some role models in real life. It will be an added benefit for these kids to have mentors, like Yasser and Akash. Both the knowledgeable interactors can share their info on planes, trains and automobiles with the kids. You never know....one of the students may like to opt for airforce or other related fields. These kids need to talk to young men with hosh and josh. I think Yasser and Akash will be ideal candidates for this job. I would strongly recommend their names for the noble cause. Interestingly, the students will be able to tell the difference between Iss Paar and Uss Paar`s fighter jets. Wonderful! Killing two birds with one stone!

I think that it will be very unfair to let go of these talented young men`s views. They must be well utilized. Probably, slink should forward the email addresses of both the interactors to the school.

Good Luck and Congrats!

Suggestion:

As the Garage School has started focusing towards the education of the kids in the neighborhood, it is very important that these kids have some role models in real life. It will be an added benefit for these kids to have mentors, like Yasser and Akash. Both the knowledgeable interactors can share their info on planes, trains and automobiles with the kids. You never know....one of the students may like to opt for airforce or other related fields. These kids need to talk to young men with hosh and josh. I think Yasser and Akash will be ideal candidates to this job. I would strongly recommend their names for the noble cause. Interestingly, the students will be able to tell the difference between Iss Paar and Uss Paar`s fighter jets. Wonderful! Killing two birds with one stone!

I think that it will be very unfair to let go of these talented young men`s views. They must be well utilized. Probably, slink should forward the email addresses of both the interactors to the school.

Good Luck and Congrats!

Ylh



I checked the official records of Pak military that accepted the loss of 42-45 planes in 1971. A non official version puts the loss of Indian planes to around 60. However we must remember that India was the agressor in 1971. It is well known by the defense experts that a ratio of 3:1 is required to dominate the adversary. Also the side that is attacking invariably faces more loss than the defending side. Thus the loss of a few more planes by IAF in 1971 stands justified. None of the sides have released an oficial version of the ``actual loss`` in 1965. You will definitely agree with me that the figures given by both the sides of the losses are likely to be biased. Asuming that the loss as accepted by PAF lately of 56 planes in 1965 to be correct, I would put the actual loss of Indian planes to be around 70. Note that the figures of Indian loss stand midway between 104 as claimed by PAF and 35 as initially accepted by IAF. These numbers are certified by some Indian military officers unofficially. Similarly it is interesting to observe that the actual loss of 55 admitted by PAF lately is midway between 75 claimed by Indans and 19 as accepted by PAF initially. The additional loss of 10-15 planes by IAF is attributed to the surprise attack by the PAF and the Indian unpreparedness initially. Thus we see that the war was much more evenly pitched than what most of the people (Indians and Pakis)think.

PS Mr ylh, please read carefully and backcheck the details carefully before jumping to conclusions. The actual facts are usually more balanced than the empty rhetoric

Ylh



I read Jane`s defense weekly quite frequently. And the analysis of India`s airforce Vs Pak airforce as of 2000 as posted by me was from alphalink which is very reliable and unbiased. It claims that if the war commences tomorrow, Indian airforce will completely dominate the weak Pak airforce. This is not to say that Pak pilots are any less courageous than their Indian counterparts. However in modern times wars are won by techmology, better organisational skills, and strategic planning. Do you think that Americal pilots were 100 times more courageous than Yugoslavian ones as they won the war without any casualty while inflicting huge damage to yugoslavia. Or American soldiers are 1000 times ``braver`` than Iraqi soldiers. No man, it`s the technology and strength of economy to carry the burden of war that matters in modern times. Had Indian airforce had merely 40 or so planes with ``look down shoot down capability`` against around 300 of the Pak obviously it is the Pak who will

win. But we know it is not the case.

P.S.

Would you post any article from Jane`s defense weekly that proves that PAF in 2000 AD is stronger than IAF. This is my challenge to you.

Please also be advised that the admitted USAF analysis was 19 PAF aircrafts...with only 154 aircrafts in the entire strength ... Pakistan clearly couldnt have half its Airforce viped out.

The PAF air war victory in both war has been admitted by the following sources...

1) USAF analysis

2) Yeager Autobiography available at Barnes and Nobles..

3) Jane`s defense weekly

I suggest you read

``Personal author: Tanham, George K. (George Kilpatrick)

Title: The Indian Air Force : trends and prospects / George K. Tanhma & Marcy Agmon.

Publication info: Santa Monica, CA : Rand, 1995.``

I believe this particular very non biased book is very embarrassing for the IAF.

-Yasser Latif Hamdani

PS Akash do you take up the challenge.. or are you going to tell me again that I am misinformed?

Please dont take Akash seriously. On another board he was claiming that ``I (YLH) was misinformed and that Jinnah was a Parsi`` when clearly Jinnah was a born a Muslim into a Khoja family. Please go and read a clearer analysis and start reading.

Also, Akash the figures that you give, exaggerated no doubt by India still show a PAF superiority. Believe me the World will believe ``Chuck Yeager`s`` estimate in his Biography more than any Bharat Rakshak site.

Now time to read more Akash, time to come out of the cocoon of selective reading, and that too of biased Indians authors.

-YLH

PS Indians want us to believe them, over Yeager, Jane Defense Weekly and the internationally acclaimed airwar experts... yeah right.

slink #41,

well said... but i don`t think it will have an affect on these little kids

To YLH and all the chowkwallas

Now let us examine the truths of Indian claims Vs Pak claims. The fact is both the parties manipulated the truth and stretched the figures. My own guess is that the actual destruction was almost equal or at least comparable. But then who will tell this to ``bakra of rutgers`` who believes that ``PAF achieved an air superiority over IAF`` in 1965.

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/History/1965War/Chapter10.html

``Pakistan revised its initial figures to claim about 54 aircraft destroyed in one of their official histories, which may be right near the mark. A look at Indian admissions reveals a list of 30 names of pilots who ejected or crashed or were taken POW roughly about twenty were lost against air opposition. We know that 16 aircraft were lost on the ground. It is safe to assume that the IAF lost about 55 aircraft throughout the war, including civilian and aircraft belonging to neutral parties as well as operational accidents.

However it must be stated that war is never so clinical that one can apply formula`s to assess the damage done to the enemy. Truth is always the first casualty of the war. To bolster a nations morale, deliberate untruths are fed into the public, intending to keep both the public as well as the military in high spirits. Admissions of severe setbacks or of inaction against an enemy would invite public anger and the downfall of the respective governments.

Both India as well as Pakistan abides by this style. Thus the Indian public never heard of the retreat to Jaurian, or of the retreat to Khem Karan, while the Pakistani public never hears of its retreat from Wagah, or the battering its armour received at Assal Uttar. The Pakistanis overdo the propaganda by adding incredible and exaggerated claims to the achievements of the military. There is a hint of vagueness and exaggeration on the Indian side too.

``

To YLH and all the chowkwallas

Let me take some more air out of ylh`s absurd claim that PAF enjoyed``complete air dominence in 1965. I am not touching 1971 war as all of us know about its reality,Indians know it open and Pakis accept it in close rooms. It is a well known fact that Pak rulers had always misguided their public by making false and unsubstantiated claims. So here is a comparative study of Pak claims viz-a viz Indian claims.

Note: The following site was recommended by ylh

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/History/1965War/Chapter10.html

Excerpts:

The conclusion of 1965 war

PAKISTANI CLAIMS

``

Pakistani claims of losses inflicted on India, had always needed to be taken with a pinch of salt. There was an element of exaggeration in the figures put forward by the Pakistani Govt., which was more for the consumption of the public rather than any serious analysis. Like the claim of inflicting more than 10,000 dead on Indian casualties, or the occupation of 2000 sq. miles of Indian territory. It also needs to be said, that devoid of wartime hype and hysteria, Pakistan had managed to put forward more credible and conservative claims later on.

......

Looking at the Pakistani claims for the air war, at the end of the war, a government spokesman claimed the destruction of 104 Indian aircraft against 19 lost by the Pakistani Air Force. The break up of the 19 losses include about 13 Sabres, 2 Starfighters and 4 B-57 Canberras. Surprisingly, the loss of the Bell helicopter was not included and was explained away as one incurred by the Army Aviation. Of the 104 Indian aircraft claimed destroyed, the breakup being about 30 air-to-air kills, 34 aircraft destroyed on ground at Indian air bases, the rest falling to anti-aircraft fire.

``

Indian Claims

``India admitted a loss of 35 aircraft to all causes and claimed 73 Pakistani aircraft as destroyed. The breakup for the Pakistani aircraft being 4 F-104s (not counting Devayya`s Starfighter), eight B-57, 47 F-86 (12 in air-to-air combat), two C-130s and the rest, miscellaneous trainers and transport aircraft. It is believed any exaggeration is due more to the claims of the ack-ack guns than the IAF attacks.

A rough breakup would be 13 aircraft claimed in air-to-air combat, another 18 on the ground in the Pakistani airfields and the rest to anti-aircraft fire. Looking at Pakistani admissions some 8 of the air combat kills, A lone Sabre on the ground and about five aircraft to anti-aircraft fire can be verified. It is a huge discrepancy in Indian claims and Pakistani admissions

``

YLH

``2) Havent the Pakistanis totally given a whooping to India in the two wars in air admittedly by Indian accounts... check Bharat rakshak and remember they played down the numbers?

3) Is it not a fact that in 1965 Pakistan had complete air superiority when it only had 154 aircrafts in total and India had 586?

``

Your claims are not only ridiculous but also outrageous. I have visited the site you talk of. A careful reading of this site along with the ``actual documents of 1965 and 1971 wars`` (mind you, some time back India Today published the actual typoewritten accounts of the war ! ) clarifies the whole situation. In 1965, Indians did not want to escalate the war to naval and air space. Hence Pakistan did get some advantage of surprise attack by PAF initially. Indian army also blundered in not taking IAF into confidence while planning an offensive on Lahore that turned the tide of the battle. However after the initial surprise was over IAF reorganised and wreaked havoc on PAF. Your claims about ``total air superiority`` are plain rubbish.

Secondly, by what stretch of imagination did you assume that PAF dominated the IAF in 1971! Man your country the unprecendented humiliation when 90,000 of your ``brave`` soldiers surrendered before Indian army afraid of being butchered by Indian army. This was probably one of the biggest surrenders in the modern times. Your country was ripped apart into two in two weeks by mighty INDIA. Remember TWO WEEKS. And one of the most important aspects of this battle was the capability of Indian helicopters to drop the soldiers behind enemy lines, something that enemy didn`t have. This helped in cordoning off the Paki battalions and smashing them easily. If results bear any testimony, it was an example of ``total defeat`` and ``abject humiliation``of a nation. Indira Gandhi after the victory, announced that ``I have slapped on the face of TNT``.

Since 1971, the gap between India and Pakistani military might has been widening at a fast rate. Now India has outpaced Pakis by many times. India and China are the only two superpowers left in Asia with the others including Pakistan far-far behind.

P.S In case you think that nuclear strike is a deterrent against another nuclear power, India, I would say who are you trying to fool. Had it been true Pak would not be crying hoarse over increased military spending by India. If pakistan launches a nuclear strike against India in desperation, the disproportionately large counter retaliatory strike by India would completely annihilate Pakistan from the face of the earth. So every one knows nuclear strike is a non-option.

Post # 15(Adnan)

``But what irks me is the title of the article.And its emphasis in the end.Schools definitely should not discriminate on the basis of religion.But at the same time basic education should inculcate values and these stem from religion.So while we should be tolerant we should not DENY that ISLAM is the only true religion and that all other religions are in our view false and misleading.``

The above just struck a chord! I have only browsed through the article and it`s indeed worth appreciating the efforts being made by the masses to promote education and besides that to have a concrete objective in life.

I think you`ve missed the author`s background intro. When one is from a minority in Pakistan, all the more reason that will come forth in one`s writings. I also dislike her underlying references that are very obvious to the ones who can see, but on the same hand, it can be a very uncomfortable position to be in. It`s hard to be saintly!

Lest you forget, all religions do not produce practitioners. Some are born under that umbrella and some acquire that later in their lives. It`s all an individual`s effort: the extent of their practice. It would have been an ideal state to imagine that all the believers would take whatever is given to them literally and abide by the teachings whole-heartedly. Somehow, the real world is very different from the ideal state.

Lastly, the crux of the matter was to enlighten the readers that a noble gesture does not need to discriminate based on religions. And it is valid point!

Take Care,

slink,

#41

Beautifully said! Every classroom has these disruptive kids who deserve a good smack in the butt with a ruler.

Shandana:#41

That was nice! Model planes supposedly of paper too;_)



There was this 8 or 10 year old child.He was a goat herder and the animals belonged to the villagers.

Everyday,he would stand outside the open-air class of the local primary school and tried to figure out what was being taught.

One day,the teacher,seeing his interest in learning,invited him in and that was the day his life changed for ever.

He passed his 8th grade provincial exam and was awarded a scholarship and after the matriculation his parents were not in a position to send the child to Lahore.

An arrangement was made.He was given room & board in a local mosque near Data Durbar in exhange for housekeeping & running errands.

As destiny would have it,someone needed something translated from farsi to english.He was also in a hurry.The assignment was given to this boy.

But the guys who wanted the job done were in a hurry & were always on the move.Some interesting events were afoot,political,in Afghanistan.The guys were Afghans and their moves were part of a grandplan.

So the young man became a part of their mission.

Eventually,he ended up in Kabul as scretary to the Amir of Kabul and,some say,as the advisor & prime minister to the Amir of Kabul.

Events were churning & bubbling with a frenzy.Some intrigues & impending overthrows dramatically saw this young man become Afghanistan`s ambassador to England while still a student at oxford.Prince Edward(v11)& others being his chums.

Returned to Afghanistan and after a few years was advised to leave and return to Sialkot and establish his private law practice there.

He was none other than Sultan Mohammed Khan.

Father of Faiz Ahmad Faiz.

__________________________________________________

wassalaam.

I am sorry Shandana......

Solitude,

Believe me Solitude I know all about the issues you are talking about. I just didnt want to discuss them because I was`nt in the mood. I wanted to talk about Shandana`s article.The Sikh/Muslim relationship is more complicated, more acute even than Hindu / Muslim relationship.

Please refer to my conversations with ylh on the

``Soft Option by Farzana Versey`` board, starting from reply #212, re: Khalistan/Pakistan.

I know all about communal tensions between Indians/Pakistanis in the UK because I grew up here, and my girlfriend is Pakistani. Believe me, we live it every day of our lives, she has been spat on, threatened with rape, it is not easy. And I have been told not to bring ``sulla`` blood into my family, so with all due respect Solitude dont take that lecturing accusatory tone of voice with me, just because I did not feel in the mood to discuss this particular issue at this particular time.

In fact, I know what is said in the drawing rooms of Muslims in Britain about Sikhs. I have been present when a picture of Guru Nanak was defaced by a young Mirpuri who didnt know my background.

But Solitude, we are not innocent. You should hear some of the things said about ``sullay``, ``pakis`` and ``sister-f * * * * *s`` at Sikh gatherings, Bhangra concerts etc. I stopped going. I have had enough hatred to fill my whole life. So I try and make friends, and I close my ears to it all....... a pointless strategy? who cares, right now all I care about is me and my girl.

I just wanted to talk about this article in question, that was all.

regards,

Harpreet

ps: slink I apologise for saying these things on your board

Solitude!

Your remarks regarding PAF or armed forces being racist, sexist etc may be right. I also know Batman are treated in the great tradition of Islam:) and one person told me that they are sometimes sexually abused also.

As far as greatly disillusioned M.M. Alam. Last time he came to our college in 1984 or so was as a great Muslim scholar and preacher. If you are talking about later I don`t know.

May God guide you. You are treading the path of destruction for yourself. In your last post you said Prayer is a form of indoctrination. If you have ever suffered in your life, you would be knowing that prayer is a great strength in times of severe crises rather than indoctrination. In daily life it is also helps prevent go astray.

As far as your assertion that adopted son`s wife was allowed only for prophet PBUH, you are wrong. Also they are not true sons legally meaning in inheritance etc. One of the reason given is that it was a strong tradition for adopted sons to be treated as real sons in Arabian society and this action shattered it forever for Muslims. But other narration also suggest that wife of Zaid bin Harris (and probably also a relative of Prophet PBUH) was not happy with her marriage with Zaid.

May God help you and guide you from path of destruction to a path of serene soul.

As far as article. There are lot of small projects in Pakistan like these and are providing some solace to the down trodden.

Again I dont wanna be misquoted.

The site says that it is a joint venture of the Pakistan Defence and PIADS right. However it is not a Military site but a civilian site. No doubt it is someone who is associated with PIADS who sanctioned this however it is not in anyway providing any service to potential users of PIADS. PIADS doesnot have an open recruit policy. The invitation is a select few... ofcourse Yeager once attended PIADS as a visiting instructor and believe me he didnt find anything wrong with the English of the Pakistanis... not to mention their flying skills.

PIADS has top pilots from Pakistan (on F 16 and Mirages), Turkey, China, Romania, Saudi Arabia and the Arab World. Back in 1980s we are well aware of the Israeli Pilots who attended PIADS also.

Yasser Latif Hamdani

Friend I hope you are aware that the PIADS site is not an official Pakistan Air Force site... but just a PAF Buff! who made the site.

So please grow up now?

And before you start about little knowledge ...

I can assure you I know more than enough... Do you even know me....

How are the things that I have stated indicative of my supposed little knowledge???

1) Dont the Pakistanis have the fastest conversion rate on the F 16 out of all the Airforces that have used the Airforce?

2) Havent the Pakistanis totally given a whooping to India in the two wars in air admittedly by Indian accounts... check Bharat rakshak and remember they played down the numbers?

3) Is it not a fact that in 1965 Pakistan had complete air superiority when it only had 154 aircrafts in total and India had 586?

I am not arguing that Pakistan is weak today, but bravery courage and valor are not measured by strength or technological might....

When you get a chance, try reading Jane Defense weekly`s analysis of the Pakistan Air Force...

Akash,

No one is denying the fact that India with its vast resources at its disposal will overcome Pakistan. I believe we were talking about the skill level and the professionalism of Pakistan.

Ofcourse with the 3 to 1 Pilot to cockpit ratio we will successfuly defend ourselves in a short term war. By the way the article is not so unbiased after all.

In any event, that is why we have the nuclear bomb. What do you do when a pack of rabid dogs attack you... you shoot them!

Yasser Latif Hamdani

PS Had you noticed I had not made it an India vs Pakistan thing ... I had merely put the biography of Chuck Yeager up who continues to hold the PAF in great regard... remember the kind of analysis that you put is exactly what they said about the vietnamese... but look what happened there....

SOLITUDE, FRIEND, YLH, AKASH....

THIS IS AN ARTICLE ABOUT EDUCATION FOR ALL. STOP ACTING LIKE CHILDREN AND LET INTERACTORS INTERESTED IN THE ISSUE PRESENTED COMMUNICATE WITH EACH OTHER WITHOUT MODEL PLANES WHIZZING OVER THEIR HEADS.

shanana

YLH

Here are some more details about the ``Great PAF``.

And dont forget to read the conclusion. Do you know about the composition of IAF with respect to PAF. Do you know the FACT THAT PAF has only 38 F-16 plus a few more aircrafts with ``look down shoot down`` capability against more than 300 such Indian aircrafts. You have little knowledge about the actual strength(or weakness) of PAF. In its present state PAF will not be able to defend Pak against IAF for, at the most, a couple of days.

http://www.alphalink.com.au/

ylh #: 35

PAF is not able to even pirate a training manual properly. They even copied the spelling mistakes. They can`t even create their own text. I will be proud of that!!

``Pakistanis - Sikh`s - Hindu`s - Muslim`s - Indians - all happen to be human at the end of the day.``

That is why none of us should be Pakistanis, Sikhs, Hindus, Muslims, Indians. That is why all of us should be human beings first and NOT Hindus, NOT Sikhs, NOT Muslims, NOT Indians, NOT Pakistanis. We should all be human beings first. NOT ``pure`` human beings, not ``dirty`` human beings - but JUST human beings - with all our complexities - MINUS all our old religions but PLUS our active minds replacing the old and outdated with the new ideas , morals and values.

``Donot always attribute human nature to culture, society, sect and religion.``

Is it human nature to kill ? No. It is religion, sectarianism, social pressure, communal anger, collectivism in particular that gives birth to violence and evil.

Is it human nature to force people into converting to Islam ? Is it human nature to rape women and treat them as ``anfal`` (war booty) ? Is it human nature to genitally mutilate girls and children ? Is it human nature to discriminate ?

Evil is often engendered - pain is created by inserting and injecting evil it into the minds of people through brainwashing (as is done in Islam). Do read papers by Dick Stuphen on brainwashing and by a Muslim Doctor (Dr. Abdullah) on Cultic practices incorporated into Islamic rituals (titled cults and thought control).

Some of the characteristics are :

Mind-numbing techniques (such as meditation (prayers), chanting (tasbeeh), speaking in tongues (arabic), denunciation sessions (anti -west propaganda , anti hypocrite , anti non muslim), debilitating work routines (fasting, 5 time prayers etc.) are used to suppress doubts about the group and its leader(s).

The leadership or idealogy dictates sometimes in great detail how members should think, act, and feel (for example: members must get permission from leaders on who to date, which jobs to do, who to get married to; leaders may prescribe what types of clothes to wear, where to live, how to discipline children, and so forth. (All these are prescribed in the Quran and Sunnah and the rest are defined by the Faqih and Muftis who come out with their Behshiti Zevars every other week - also known as catechisms).

The group is elitist, claiming a special, exalted status for itself (the chosen people- Muslims will go to heaven) its leader(s), and members (for example: the leader is considered to be of extra importance (the seal of prophethood); the group and/or the leader has a special mission to save humanity.

The group has a polarized us- versus-them mentality, which causes conflict with the wider society. (this one can be referenced from the Quran and the behavior of Muslims).

The group`s leader is not accountable to any authorities (except their God) e.g. Prophet allowed to break the 4 wives rule, Prophet allowed to marry the wife of his adopted son etc.

The group teaches or implies that its supposedly exalted ends justify means that members would have considered unethical before joining the group (for example: terrorism, bombing, killing your own relatives just like the Sahaba killed their own uncles etc.)

The leadership induces guilt feelings in members in order to control them. (oh you are such a bad Muslim you don`t even pray 5 times a day!)

Members are encouraged or required to live and/or socialize only with other group members (again the Quran orders this).

Those who do not follow the injunctions of the cult of Islam are found to be milder, more cheerful, more friendly and more successful human beings. Their innate goodness remains uncorrupted by religion.

Ah.. we had just gotten over the Punjabi-Sindhi issue in ``When Pinky Broke My Heart`` paaaleeease.. get over history.. We cannot change the past, if somebody has made an effort to better one`s future, donot make it a convoluted affair. Donot spoil the spirit by digging up sad instances of history.

We all understand and accept the hard facts of life and the reality of it all. Pakistanis - Sikh`s - Hindu`s - Muslim`s - Indians - all happen to be human at the end of the day. Donot always attribute human nature to culture, society, sect and religion. Good and Evil are present in all forms and will continue to do so.

Stop it!!

Samuel-

Friend

Ok but what are you trying to prove...

Are you trying to deny that Pakistan Air Force

1) Had the fastest conversion rate on the F 16?

2) The figures which show the kill ratio of the PAF to be much higher than that of India... according to Indian statistics?

3) Yeager`s admiration for PAF? His analysis that the skill level puts PAF at no 1 slot in the world

4) The first kill by an F 16 was by PAF?

Please tell me what exactly you are trying to prove....

Just because IAF is a sure shot suicide... with 19 air plane lost 2000 alone ... ?

``Please dont let this board become a Sikh-Muslim beat-em-up. `` - Harpreet

Why don`t you share with us the ``friendly`` relations between sikhs and muslims / pakis in Britain ?

When the ``Pakis`` are not making fun of their ``piyaz`` (onions) and ``tamatar`` (tomato) and all the ``bara bajay`` (12 o clock) jokes they are telling their children about how bad the Sikhs are. After all it was the Sikhs who were at the forefront of any militant opposition to Muslims / Pakistanis.

Anyone who is even slightly honest with themselves will recognize the atrocities committed against the Sikh. They are cordial with sikhs now because they think they can use the Sikhs to weaken India.

As far as treatment of Sikhs is concerned. Sikh guru Tegh Bahadur on refusing to accept Islam, was brought to the prison in a cage. Three of his disciples were murdered in front of him. One of them was Bhai Mati Das. He was sawed (amputated) alive. The other was wrapped up in cotton and burnt alive. Bhai Dyala, the third one, was boiled alive. Guru Tegh Bahadur himself was brutally tortured and killed in a similar fashion. We see further support of these types of torments in the verses below.

Quran 5:33 The only reward of those who make war upon Allah and His messenger and strive after corruption in the land will be that they will be killed or crucified, or have their hands and feet on alternate sides cut off.

XLIV/43-50: LO! the tree of Zaqqum (The tree that grows in the heart of hell bearing fruits like devil`s heads) - the food of the sinner. Like molten brass, it seetheth in their bellies as the seething of boiling water. (And it will be said): Take him and drag him to the midst of hell, then pour upon his head the torment of boiling water. Saying: TASTE! LO! thou wast forsooth the mighty, the noble! Lo! this is that whereof ye used to doubt.

IX/123: O ye who believe! Fight those of the disbelievers who are near to you and let them find harshness in you and know that Allah is with those who keep their duty (unto Him).

IX/29: Fight those who do not profess the true faith (according to them : Islam) till they pay the jiziya (religious tax) with the hand of humility.

IV/144: O Ye who believe! choose not disbelievers for your friends in place of believers. Would you give Allah a clear warrant against you ?

A practising Muslim can never be a friend of a person of another faith. People who believe otherwise are non practising or ignorant of Islamic teachings (90% of Muslims find Islam too impractical to practice).

--

FORCIBLE CONVERSIONS (LYALLPUR)

The Hindus and Sikhs resident of Chak No. 23 W. B. requested Mohd. Hanif Shah, Superintendent, to arrange protection of their lives and property, and the Superintendent gave full assurance that he would do his best. On 27-8-47 in the morning again it was repeated by him, they were given full assurance of their safety. But in the afternoon on that day, it has been alleged that under the instructions of the Superintendent, the Muslims of neighbouring chaks collected and the Muslims of Chak 23 W. B. were ordered to stand around the chak. They gave the Hindus the threat either that they should embrace Islam or they would be killed along with their families.

They said the womenfolk would be ill treated, their breasts, ears and noses would be cut off. On this they approached the Superintendent and reminded him of his promise. His advice was to embrace Islam and thus secure safety. So there was forcible shaving of the head hair and beards of the Sikhs from 7 to 10 p.m. and they all had to embrace Islam.

Note: (In some other cases, circumcision was also insisted on and performed in public).

--

FROM THE CIVIL AND MILITARY GAZETTE (OCTOBER 1947)

A senior Sikh Military officer was virtually ejected from a leading Hotel in Lahore on Wednesday night because Muslims present there insisted that a Sikh should not be allowed entry to a Public place in Pakistan, says a Press Note from the Office of the Deputy High Commissioner for India in Pakistan. This, the note continues, is an interesting sequel to the communal harmony propaganda of Mr. Ghaznafar Ali Khan, Food Minister of the Pakistan Government.

The Sikh Officer, accompanied by another Indian Army Officer, and two ladies went to this Hotel for dinner. He had been there hardly for ten minutes when the manager of the hotel approached him and said, “I admire your courage, but I am very sorry that the Muslims around here object to your presence”.

“The Manager, who was a European, was very apologetic about the attitude of the people, but he said it was advisable for the Officer to leave the hotel in order to avoid any unpleasant incident.

“The Sikh officer, much against his will, agreed to leave. Meanwhile, the other officer with him went around and talked to the people who had objected to the presence of the Sikh officer in the hotel, but their attitude was extremely unreasonable. They threatened to shoot the Sikh officer if he did not remove himself immediately.”

In connection with the above incident the author of “Inside Pakistan” has this to say:

“I personally verified the truth of the above report from the Manager of the Falettis Hotel, where the incident took place. The Press report might well have added that the Sikh officer concerned was a Colonel and had that day arrived in Lahore after guarding a convoy of Muslim Refugees from East Punjab and saving their lives several times on the road.

The incident created a bad impression in Delhi where Muslims were and have always been welcome to the Maidens and Imperial Hotels and the Associated Hotels in Simla and elsewhere. From personal knowledge the author can say that but for the courtesy of the management of the Associated Hotels in Simla during last summer, several Muslim families and particularly ladies whose men-folk were in Pakistan, would have been murdered.

The Sikh staff did everything possible to protect Muslim residents in the Hotels.”

--

CIVIL AND MILITARY GAZETTE REPORT

“A batch of 291 Hindus and Sikhs abducted persons including a number of children arrived at the Ganga Ram Hospital Transit Camp in Lahore on Sunday, February 29, from Campbellpur and Kunjah refugee camps. Seventy-six of these persons came from Campbellpur and the rest from Kunjah.

“These rescued women and children appeared to have been better fed and looked after than the previous group of 694 persons. They were clad in comparatively cleaner clothes and did not present an unrelieved picture of misery and starvation as the previous batch strikingly did.

“One of the women told a pressman that they had been supplied with improved diet in the Camp at Kunjah during last week.

“The Pakistan Government commissioned a regular force of Maulvis to work their magic on the “Younger and more acceptable” type of abducted women. The aged and infirm remained “unblessed.” No arguments and persuasions are spent on the latter to make Pakistan their home.”

--

There are entire libraries of accounts of atrocities committed against Sikhs in Pakistan. Muslims have been ``friendly`` with Sikhs by rioting against them in places ranging from Bradford England to Pakistan and Kashmir.

YLH,

It seems that even US Air Force is copying from PIADS web site.

http://hqin.inhuf.ang.af.mil/f16/tactics/AFT.htm

What surprises me is how US site created 4 years ago could copy from PIADS site released in 2000!

Czech site is 2 years old!!

Shandana #28,

Slink, jinda rao

harpreet

Please dont let this board become a Sikh-Muslim beat-em-up.

For some reason this story has really moved me. In Britain we take so much for granted, even our education. In India/Pakistan there are people who can make a difference and they do. These people are truly blessed. I think in the future I would like to become involved in educational issues of the sub-continent, in a practical way.

Imagine if a pupil at the garage school became leader of Pakistan.

I think that it is a great, empowering message here, that one person can make a difference, that things can be done. You are literally opening these childrens eyes, showing them the whole world. Can there be any greater, any more sacred task than that?

Shandana, maybe they could set up a pen-pal scheme with a similar school in India?

regards,

Harpreet

Friend

Quite clearly your sarcasm is misplaced. The fact that an amatuer site stole a few things from the PIADS site has no consequence what so ever,... I still didnt quite understand what you were getting at?

Pakistan Air Force had the fastest conversion rate on the Falcon or the Viper ... and yes Pakistan was the first Air force to use the F 16 in combat, the first one to score a kill with the F 16 ... soviet 1987 ....

So if you are trying to infer something please get your facts straight.

Yasser Latif Hamdani

PS I thought Yeager`s recommendation would be worthy enough.

One of the seldom reported many uplifting stories of our great awaam.



Ehsaan Daanish,one of the doyen(Asathza) poets of Pakistan was self schooled.He was a brick layer and manual labourer right from his childhood.He could never find time or money to go to school.But,he was determined to impart education to the neighbourhood children.

So in later years he opened Danishkada,a free one-room class/school where he himself was the teacher and there was no money or material involved.A storefront was made available to him and the local mohalla vallas were his moral spine and zakaat & food donors.

His was a tremendous impact on many.

The ``progressives`` sneered at him.

__________________________________________________

dear Kant Patel,

i don`t have a sulekha addy, i do have a chowk addy though, shandana@chowk.com, do forward your earlier mail to me, if possible, and i shall fire off a reply at the speed of light, or rather the speed of someone who has just woken up and burnt her tongue on a hot cup of tea. braack!

anyone interested in contacting the garage school can do so at garageschool@hotmail.com

someone wrote how nice it was that a widow who lost her husband in the 71 war bears no ill will towards those of a different religion. i think this is probably because, having experienced the death of a loved one, she understands how pointless such superficial divisions are. we are all equally vulnerable are we not, regardless of what badge we wear or the cholestrol content of the heart pinned on the sleeve? death can come anytime, to anyone, of any religion, for any reason or no reason at all. no barrier we create will hold it off, no emotional fences we erect will drive it away, so why indulge in pointless hostility that only increases the likelihood of meeting it in a dark alley and emerging in a bodybag? why must people sacrifice themselves for vengance? why cant they work for the living? why can`t they devote their lives to the pursuit of truth in non-violent ways? why cant they aim for truth and beauty rather than power and discord? and why do some of us swallow their rhetoric so easily?

ylh#17

I am also proud of PAF. Look what great training manual they printed at http://www.pakdefencenews.org/piads/bftm1.html

I was very disappinted to read that now Czech are copying material from your PAF site.

http://www.voodoo.cz/falcon/AFT.html

regards

Ref #22 and #25,

It is amusing to note that Pakistani Muslims feel so pally with sikhs these days. Not long ago (and even now) they were crying about badshahi mosque being covered with cow dung. People who suffered most during partition were sikhs. People who organized themselves against Muslim atrocities during mugal rule were Sikhs.

Good that there is someone in India with whom our neighbours can identify with.

regards

PS: BTW, part of my family is sikh.

re solitude #22:

OK this guy has issues to deal with. I just want to warn the unsuspecting reader out there to take everything he says with a grain of salt. Take his latest gem for instance. If he had any interaction with a reasonable number of Sikhs, he`d know that Pakistanis and Sikhs get along fabulously. I`ve yet to come across a single instance where there was bad blood between the two of them. This, on the other hand is not unusual amongst Indians and Pakistanis of other backgrounds.

The `new` economy with its abundance of $200/hour jobs in NYC has produced a bunch of impotent losers who think getting sloshed at Life or Tunnel over the weekend and getting laid with anything that moves in a tight skirt occasionally makes them super-jocks. Sadly their day of reckoning is getting closer and closer.

See ya in a years time buddy!!

later

-sac

re. Adnan_672 (#15)

``So while we should be tolerant we should not DENY that ISLAM is the only true religion and that all other religions are in our view false and misleading``

Adnan, you seem to be as ignorant of Islam as you are of the other religions.

Bravo!

Remember ``It takes a village to raise a child``.

Is garage ya us mulk kay guli koochon mein
insaan kay bacchay rahtay hain. Unhay insaanon
ki tarah paalo gay to wo waqai baray aadmi/aurtain banian gay.
Agar jaanwaron ki tarah bartao karo gay un kay
saath to woh wehshi banain gay.

Ras

``It is sheer ignorance on my part that I did not know there is are Sikhs living in Pakistan. ``- EST Reply #: 21 jagdeep

It is not your fault. The sikhs that were imported and smuggled into Pakistan have been the militant kind who were responsible for terrorism in Indian-held Punjab. Pakistan sponsored them, trained them and the only reason some of them gain any public acceptance is hate. Both the Muslims of Pakistans and some disillusioned, impressionable Sikhs have one thing in common : they know how to hate (for different reasons).

I was living with a Sikh a long time ago and I heard horrifying tales of public lynchings of Sikhs in Lahore and Rawalpindi of Sikhs. During 1947 when India and Pakistan were being divided due to the antics of rabid Pakistani Nationalists (remember they came a long time before hindu nationalists and BJP) there was widespread massacre of Sikhs and any remotely ``hindu`` minority.

Recently the hatred for Sikhs was displayed in the massacre of Sikhs in Kashmir by the Mujahideen. The butt of all jokes in Pakistan are Sikhs. We view them with more hatred than we view hindus (hindus are merely ``cowards`` and weak because they eat ``sabzi`` or vegetables) but entire novels are written on how Sikhs hate Pakistanis and Muslims. I remember reading ``pulp fiction`` or popular Urdu literature about the massacre in Amritsar (which happened after a few Sikhs escaped the massacres in Pakistan and told their relatives about the atrocities - the Sikhs then revenged themselves on Indian Muslims). I and my friends used to vow that we would someday kill all the Sikhs in Amritsar (when we take over India - which is by the way every Pakistani boy`s wet dream - we thrive on fear of India).

My American friends often sit around and talk about girls from different countries - who we would like to make love to and who we think are really bad. One day a friend of mine (he is blonde, has blue eyes and is knock out gorgeous) asked me with a pained expression on his face : Shiraz are most Pakistani women racist ?

I did not know where to look. I knew I was racist when I was amongst Pakistanis (we called christians bhangis and karantas, we called Shias ``khatmals`` and hindus ``matarwas`` and ``bhaiyas`` and on and on ... ) and then I remembered our hatred of everyone else - and our feeling of ``we have a superior way of life`` and I simply nodded in response. I think my friends observed a prolonged moment of silence after that nod.

Re: Author

A very laudable enterprise. Why should anybody get surprised I cannot understand. After all there are good people everywhere. However we must also remember that this type of initiative does not solve the big problems of the society. We should not get carried away.

PS. It is sheer ignorance on my part that I did not know there is are Sikhs living in Pakistan. Can somebody please enlighten me about the size of this population and areas they live in.

jagdeep

What a great lady. Thanks for sharing this with us Shandana.

How can we help? Any address?

Shandana,

When this article appeared in the TFT a few weeks back, I sent you an e-mail via Sulekha`s address. If you received it, I would be glad to get your response.

Kant...

Veeresh

With over 150 kills admitted by India.. PAF too has its fair share of Indian aircrafts ....

We are proud of our air force which is the best in the world ...

http://www.chowk.com/bin/showa.cgi?fkhan_apr1200

and yeager`s biography

http://www.pakdefencenews.org/piads/yeager1.html

do read.

Yasser Hamdani

ALI RAZA RIZVI,

Where are you, my friend?! This wonderful article brought back memories of what you started when we were students together. I know you made it big somewhere in Himachal, but where the heck ARE you?! Quit lording it over the non-administrative types and get in touch.

Good Work

The lady is indeed doing a fine job

But what irks me is the title of the article

And its emphasis in the end

Schools definitely should not discriminate on the basis of religion

But at the same time basic education should inculcate values and these stem from religion

So while we should be tolerant we should not DENY that ISLAM is the only true religion and that all other religions are in our view false and misleading

dear all,

i`m sure shabeena, and her kids, will be overwhelmed by this response. anyone interested in wishing to contact her can write to her for more info at garageschool@hotmail.com

fairdinkum...that wasn`t rude at all :) again, i was very impulsive and forgot to add the addy at the end.

pm..good point..thats why she`s been taking them to places like the behbood centre. erollment at behbood costs about rs 50, or so she told me, and she wanted to know if i could get her in touch with some people who might help. so i sent this to chowk. and i can`t really tell you how tingly i feel at this confirmation of the chowk spirit.

thanks
shandana

re PM #9

Patrick,

And that`s the harash reality of it all... isn` it!?

Thanks for your much needed reminder to keep the bigger pictrue in foucus without taking anything away from shabana`s efforts...

PM, you are too good! How about a PM fan club? :)

It is great to hear that an increasing number of Pakistanis are becoming sensitive to the needs of the poor people of Pakistan. Great job!

Please send me additional details, if conveniently possible at bahmad@home.com

Sincerely,Bilal Ahmad

As a person associated with the Airforce.... I assure you that Solitude has crossed all limits of lying...

Interestingly enough PAF has had atleast two ACMs who were Ahmadis....

Yasser Hamdani

The effort and the results achieved by the lady in question make us in India see another side of Pakistan. Maybe I shall take ylh (and others) on their invitations to visit this aspect of Pakistan.

On a different note, what do you have in the PAF museum? I know that the IAF museum has some Pakistani aircraft and vehicles . . .

Think about this .... Shabina Mustafa`s efforts have caused kids who would otherwise be resigned to their `destiny` as the underclass to at least BELIEVE that they can be `baray adami.` That in itself is an achievement of heroic proportions.

Alas, it is not nearly enough. Unless the mechanism to reward effort equitably (i.e without the prejudices and favouritism that we are infamous for) these kids will be awoken to a rude shock later in life when they learn that an education and industriousness are not all it takes to become a successful person in Pakistan. AND THAT WOULD BE A TEASE CRUELLER THAN LEAVING THEM WITH THEIR EYES SHUT.

No praise is enough for Mrs. Mustafa`s efforts. However, let us not take our sights off the equally important need for the kind of politically engineered reform that will ensure that these kids` destinies are not limited to vocational schools (No disrespect meant for these schools).



Good work, Shandana! Keep it up!

``It is interesting and heartening to see that at least the PAF has not lost its traditions of treating all ethnicities and religions the same within its boundries, even though the rest of Pakistan seems to be losing this ideal. ``

I grew up on PAF bases around Pakistan - my father being a GDP fighter pilot and if there is one thing that I keep hearing from pilots to airmen to engineers it is this : PAF is the most racist, sexist and prejudiced Air Force. My father himself left the PAF early on in his career because he was not a Punjabi (even though he spoke Punjabi fluently and grew up in Lower Topa Muree and then Sarghoda and Sialkot).

You can forget about the walls thick with Islamic prejudice that are put up to prevent Qadianis (Ahmedis), Shias (``khatmals``), Mohajirs and non Muslims like Christians etc. Sure it suits the PAF quite well to have Christians dying for them -instead of their own sons. It suits them quite well that MM Alam and the most celebrated PAF pilot is a Mohajir. However how many people know that MM Alam today is amongst the most severely disillusioned men ?

There was a time when the Pakistan Air Force was indeed blind to prejudice a long time ago when the RAF trained our men and the PAF was run according to the Britain`s Manual. The only thing that mattered ( a long time ago ) was : merit and talent. Today with our madrasahs teeming with Mujahids the gentleman soldier is becoming extinct. He is getting replaced by the barbaric antics of the Arab savages who invaded and raided trade caravans and weakened countries (as in the 6th century). These savages are the same who treat women like ``war booty`` and make concubines out of them (``enjoy of what your right hand possess``).

By the way - my father later became the greatest bounty hunter for the Pakistan Air Force and subsequently Air Forces of the Middle East from Syria, Egypt, Saudi Arabia to the UAE and Oman. What was his bounty ? whom did he target ? why the Qadianis ofcourse. The Ahmedis hid their identities from fear of persecution - my father named all ``suspected`` Ahmedis and was instrumental in the ruination of many families. He was like the grand inquisitor and General Mccarthy rolled into one (and probably still is). Today in the PAF men like my father thrive (him and all his friends who are very devout Muslims. Men who refuse to shave their beards, who abuse their wives generously and then come to my father for help with convincing their wives to put on the veil and for counseling on how best to order their wives to stop driving.

Really Islam is very useful for men who choose to follow it. There are quite a few such Muslim men who will be proud to do what my father is doing to people.

Dear Shandana,

This is just so fantastic, heart warming and makes the Pakistani side of me so proud. Thank you for posting this article! God was probably looking down at Shabina and saying to his jealous angels: that`s why I made her kind superior to you all.

Something that I always place on par with life`s most basic needs, like breathing, is the ability to read, write and speak.

Is there anyway I can help? Is it possible to obtain Shabina Mustapha`s contact details. Of course I`m based in UK and she in Pakistan but hopefully that shouldn`t pose any major problems. My e-mail address is Omarphoenix@aol.com.

Thank you once again and best wishes

Omar Phoenix

Shandana,

A lovely article, I am sure that this school and its philosophy makes every Pakistani proud, it makes me proud......such people represent the greatness of Pakistan.

regards

Harpreet

hi Shandana... i was wondering if you could send me Shabina Mustafa`s contact.... my e - mail address is ashi@vogue.com... thanks..Ayesha

Very interesting article.

It mentions the name of a person I have some familiarity with, Flight Lieutenant Syed Safi Mustafa (shaheed) S.J. There is a squadron named after him in one of the PAF`s cadet training institutions (quite a big honor). Anyone interested in him can go to http://www.pafmuseum.com.pk/contents/sh71smustafa.htm.

If you go to this page, you will see something interesting in the left hand column. There is a list titled, ``71 Shuhuda.`` Prominent in this list are two Christians, Wg. Cdr. Meryn Middlecoat and Sqn. Ldr. Peter Christie. The former is one of only two or three officers in the PAF to get two Sitara-i-Jurats. Apparetly, he is also the Shaheed of the week at the PAF museum (also mentioned in this article). It is interesting and heartening to see that at least the PAF has not lost its traditions of treating all ethnicities and religions the same within its boundries, even though the rest of Pakistan seems to be losing this ideal.

I know quite a few ladies who lost their husbands in Pakistan`s various wars. I have always been a great admirer of their courage and patience. They are treated like VIPs within the circles of their husband`s colleagues. It is great to see someone who has already given her husband to Pakistan, give so much more.

On second thought... i think reply #1 was a bit rude!

I should have asked how we/I can help shabana...

Sorry about that!

``Yeh Khita inquilabi hai, nayee duniya basaye Ga

Jab tak waqt jaye gaa, is ko agay hee paye gaa``

Towards an egalitarian, democratic, and progressive Pakistan!

Pakistan Zindabad

Good on shabana!

Slink,

Put the list of things (shabana needs for her kids) up on this board...
And don`t forget to tell us the address where things should be sent...

Good work slinky!

Slink,

What can i say. Great work in disseminating such esoteric information about the good being done; no matter at such a miniscule scale.

Keep writing. Woh KGS wala comment aap ko aur kuch aur famous hastioun ko apply nahin karta. Hope you can see the humour in it. :)

Asim