The Islamist and Hindutva Politics: Identities of Outlook and Objectives

Re: religious tolerance

A lot of historical facts presented by harimanu about the way by which local deities were incorporated by hindus as part of the legend is true. Hindus during ancient times lived by the spirit of ``live and let live``. The religious tolerance of hindus in ancient days is legendary. The story is often told of how the jews (some claim as one of the lost tribes) who fled to India landed in Calicut (coastal Kerala)in a country ruled by Zamorin who was a hindu. They got the land to stay and built a synagogue right by the side of a Kali temple. Many ministers of the time objected. The king did not know what to do. It is said Goddess Kali came in his dream and told him to allow them to stay and said``they worship me in a different form``.

The greatest challenge to hinduism came not from Islam but from Buddhism (hard to believe!).Buddhism spread to every nook and corner of India. Hindu religion was made popular again by people like Adi Shankara who went all over India debating and arguing with Buddhists and other scholars of the time. We have never read of any king ever killing or prosecuting people for religion in ancient India. King Ashoka who was a Hindu became Buddhist and adopted Buddhism as a state religion but even he did not prosecute hindus. Hence, the zeal with which many muslim sultans propogated Islam (many times it included forced conversions,physical subjugation etc) would have been hard for the hindus of that time to understand. The common refrain would have been `why can`t they live and propogate their religion peacefully`. The fact of the matter is Islam was unlike any other religion India had witnessed till then. There was no way this new religion was willing to be accomodated. It was the very antithesis of hinduism. While hinduism revelled in idol worship and celebrated God in its myriad forms, Islam was iconoclastic. The islamic rulers saw temples and statues as the symbol of hinduism and went after them to systematically destroy the religion. That they could not do so is because hinduism is not just a religion. It is also a way of life. To destroy it would have required destroying every being who was a hindu,a task not possible even for a powerful ruler like Akbar. That hinduism has survived intact even after such harsh times is a testimony to its inherent strength in spirituality and faith.

Having said all that, I would like to add that I am not in favor of demolishing even one mosque to prove a point or for revenge. Such actions have no place in a modern society. Besides,2 wrongs do not make a right. Best thing to do in case of Babri masjid issue would be to let the Supreme Court decide the issue. Meanwhile,we should make sure that the issue is freely debated in newspapers and TV so people are not misled by vily politicians.

rsridhar

Hi,

Harimau`s article is thought provoking. Even though so many chowkwallahs have disapproved his article as a vitrolic diatribe from a Hindoo fundamentalist, no one has come up with a reasonable reply to it.

My personal view is Harimaus observations are correct. He has exposed the hypocrisy of Pseudo-secularists ( apologist Hindoos ) and at the same time shown the expansionalist and cruel features of the Sword of Islam.

It is really a astonishing fact that these so-called Hindoos have still not learned from History. And if you don`t learn from history than you are damned to repeat it.

I would personally salute Harimau for his articles. You are a realist. It takes a lot of courage to admit the truth and you have done it.

Harimau 406#

I like your post 406#. If you say that first, and then say what you want, people will listen more. Ideally, it should not matter, but reality is very different from idealism.

I am not visting this site regularly anymore.

Ref shankar #: 419

[Hahaha you crack me up! Let me tell you, I have resolved never to make fun of Islam because they have promised me 72 houris in heaven if I`m a good boy. On the other hand, I`ve convinced my wife to be a pious hindu. I wont be a happy camper if she`s rewarded by 72 horny & handsome jehadis. I`m proud of my male double standard, another thing my muslim soulmates have taught me.]

You are a pathetic excuse for a human being. If you have the slightest idea about your heritage, you would know that Hindu women are raised to believe that to even wish for a different husband in the next life is infidelity to their marital vows and every male is raised to treat his wife so as to be deserving of such devotion and love. You revel in being an ass-kisser of the whites and you peddle the hogwash called psychiatry. Your first customer should be yourself.

I am not surprised you even ask that idiot taikonaut why he is ending his posts with `Gurv Say Kahon Mein Bharti Hai`. If you have a clue about what it means to be an Indian, let alone a Hindu, you wouldn`t bother with that idiot.

harimau,

Hahaha you crack me up! Let me tell you, I have resolved never to make fun of Islam because they have promised me 72 houris in heaven if I`m a good boy. On the other hand, I`ve convinced my wife to be a pious hindu. I wont be a happy camper if she`s rewarded by 72 horny & handsome jehadis. I`m proud of my male double standard, another thing my muslim soulmates have taught me.

Feel better now?!

In her reply #23 on the board ``Make Religion Sexy``, Farzana Versey said

[Well, keep the posts well-lubricated.]

Since these are words written by an eminent columnist and an Islamic one at that, let me ask Dr. Headshrinker:

`Were you keeping the post well-lubricated?`

Chowk editors, I don`t think you will publish this either because you want to create the impression among your reading public that I was using filthy language by putting special characters where I had my riposte to the headshrinker. Or, you will put special characters again and print the rest of the post.

What happened to your Islamic courage?

Re: harimau

You wrote to shankar:

``But, if scientific inquiry was your forte, you wouldn`t be practicing voodoo in a white coat.``

Hah good one.

Re: ylh

Hahah...I knew the NEWS in #414 would piss you off. After all it exposes Pakistan for what it is...a non-secular, failed, bankrupt, and isolated ``ISLAMIC Republic`` with a military dictator. Now, to top it all off, despite having an ISLAM ONLY and country, they are killing each other.

So much for all your theories....

People like Rsaxena have no sense of fairness, indicative perhaps of the general trend in India.

If quoting the authors I quote is rewriting History then kindly show me which Pandit I should listen to, to learn History.

As for Harimau, you have made sweeping generalizations, the interesting mix of fact and fiction that you have put up, doesnot support your conclusions. You have been condemned by your own people.

Kindly try and refute the following facts

1) It was Gandhi not Jinnah who supported the Khilafat Movement ... Jinnah had no interest in such an obscurantist gaddi for the Muslims.

2) Muslim Empires with all their faults allowed all the subject races and communities religious freedom, and autonomy .... REF: John L Esposito,

Bernard Lewis, Harold Lamb, Paul Sprachman, Montgommery Watt, Abbot, Edward Jurji of Princeton, and COUNTLESS, and by countless I mean COUNTLESS OTHERS including people like Napoleon Bonaparte and Warren Hastings!

You have earned my permanent wrath by attributing to my person, certain fallacies (like I support Khilafat etc). As for Rsaxena, he is just an ignorant young un, who when he will be ready to learn History, might change his biased and narrowminded attitude!

-Yasser Hamdani

This will become the history that ylh rewrites in a month (as he does everything else).

``MULTAN, Pakistan, Jan 25 (Reuters) - Masked gunmen killed a Shi``ite Muslim activist and wounded two passers-by in an attack in Pakistan``s Punjab province on Thursday. Police said they suspected the motive was sectarian. The killing drew immediate condemnation from the Tehrik-e-Jafria party, Pakistan``s main Shi``ite political party, which blamed the government for failing to protect members of the country``s minority Shi``ite community. Tehrik-e-Jafria says five of its members have been killed in the last four weeks and about 35 were killed last year, mostly by members of rival Sunni Muslim militant groups. Police said Syed Ameer Hussain Lak, a teacher, was gunned down on his way to school at 9:40 a.m. (0440 GMT) in Sardarpur village in southern Punjab. Two gunmen on a motorcycle opened fire at Lak, killing him instantly and wounding two passers-by, police said. Lak, in his early thirties, was an official for the Tehrik-e-Jafria party in Khanewal district, about 60 km (37 miles) east of Multan city. ``The government is not taking any steps to stop these incidents, which are on the rise,`` Tehrik-e-Jafria leader Sajid Naqvi told Reuters by telephone. ``The situation is getting worse each passing day and there is nothing the government is doing to stop it,`` he said. A 55-year old Iranian Shi``ite preacher, Agha Sultani, who had been living in Pakistan for several years, was shot dead by masked gunmen on Saturday in Karachi. He ran an Islamic religious school in the port city. Hundreds of people have been killed in Sunni-Shi``ite violence in Pakistan in recent years. The two groups disagree over interpretations of Islamic beliefs. ``

Ref shankar #: 405

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

Chowkwallahs: I suppose this offends your sensibilities (that is why you haven`t posted this reply in a couple of days) but not the graphic rubbish that Farzana Versey has posted in her responses on her board on making religions sexy.

But then, hasn`t that been the hallmark of Islamic evenhandedness? One rule for Muslims and another for kafirs?

Ref shankar #: 405

[No, but I`m sure you`ll be thinking about them]

Do you make similar wisecracks to your Muslim sister-in-law (aren`t you the one who gushed about the wonderful biriyani you get at your sister-in-law`s parents?) about the Haj or is your contempt only reserved for Hindus?

I have never seen such self-loathing in any person.

YLH

I forgot to add one small footnote.

Chitor was re-occupied after some years, despite the fact that every man, woman, and child was put to death by Mahmud Ghaznavi.

After Akbar`s sack, Chitor was abandoned.

When Indians see pictures of the ghost city of Chitor, they assume that this was Mahmud Ghaznavi`s doing.

They don`t know it is the most benevolent Mughal emperor Akbar, the one who, according to history, was the kindest to his Hindu subjects, who was responsible for the utter desolation of Chitor.

How about that for re-telling, not re-writing, history?

Pankaj #404

Even if books are not at hand with me, I am ready to discuss Kashmir issue.

One axiom you have to forego first. Kashmir has been part of India in 1947.

One axiom you have to accept. Kashmiris have a right to determine their own future.

Then we can study the tumultuous history of Kashmir.

Ref ylh #: 408

[Despite many efforts by people like Shankar and Harpreet, the problem with India remains. There are just too many Harimaus and Rsaxenas, who pride themselves in the rewriting of History, and associating falsehoods with the objects of their

hatred.]

Bud, I am NOT rewriting history; I am quoting from John Keay who quotes Muslim historians contemporaneous with the sultans of Delhi. That is not re-writing history but finally letting the bright light of truth shine on the dark secrets of those times that are being glossed over in contemporary history books for political reasons. Like cockroaches when the light is turned on, all the supporters of the glorious Mughal rule have scampered away in all directions (where are you, F_K?), only to leave behind the Hindu apologists and doormats who have given up because they have no logic in their arguments.

Why don`t YOU, ylh, show me the historical falsehoods in my statements so far on this board?

Despite many efforts by people like Shankar and Harpreet, the problem with India remains. There are just too many Harimaus and Rsaxenas, who pride themselves in the rewriting of History, and associating falsehoods with the objects of their

hatred.

-Yasser