For a few words of love

A few words of love can heal
who is to speak them?
who among us has the courage to love?

Saima,

I don`t know much about the aesthetics of modern poetry and symbolism... but this is beautiful - as far as the thought is concerned.

You are right… we must “fight” for peace! We must… the alternative is horrendous. time for us to stand up and be counted…

Thanks for a lovely poem.

``who among us has the courage to love?``

It is indeed very difficult to love here in the subcontinent.

If I love indians,i will be considered a traitor

If I praise the beauty of Kerala,i will be asked haven`t u seen kaghan,its more beautiful,

If I acknowledge indian advancement in software industry,i will be disliked,

If I mention Aryabhata as great mathematician i will be reminded that we have Khwarzmi,he is greater.

If I want to learn Sanskrit,I will be told to learn Arabic first

I love pakistan,but to prove my love to pakistan i should hate india.and if i cant hate india than i must be a lesser pakistani.

the price of love is too high.

who is willing to pay this price?

Wow Saima Shah, that was fantastic. `Chew suk swallow,` something about the words...they sound delicious. Unfortunately the poem has a sad topic as its base at the end of day. Once again brilliant!!!

Saima:

(Just an impromptu, un-revised reaction)


who among us has the courage to love?


Hey kiddo, you kidding?
love? ain’t that rare as sincerity?
love? ain’t that rare as ....well, courage?
courage? as in telling it like it is?
courage? as in courage of conviction?

oh, do we love!
love to babble, gibble-gabble
till the chickens come home...
me, mine, I and a period
with an all-encompassing finality.

(and of course
love, we love
distant shores
far away idols
bustees we left behind
memories of memories
ensconced
or rotting - li’l do we know)

courage?
surely we’re no cowards
so what if we sit here
and criticize freely
this person or that leader
governments
in power or in exile
any-thing-or-one
disagreein’ with our notions
of entrenched truths

don’t we have the courage
to go on killing sprees
against the foolhardy
who may have the courage
to disagree with our truths?
it’s all in courage
it’s all in courage
I keep hearin’ voices tell me
it’s all in courage

and despite
love and courage
a little bit of us
dies every day
every moment.

___________________________


[...On another note --- as if it is not enough --- shall we discuss among or amongst? Nah, it is nice to see you here after such a long absence:) And with such a sensitive effort. Easy flow: haunting imagery. Wonder how long will it take for those of the me-better persuasion to hijack this board?]

love,

temporal

Saima, that was really really haunting. And I guess it`s captured what I feel about the whole situation between our countries. I wish I could do something about the hate between our countries but I guess what I can do is limited.

so shamelessly cogging from Masd,

and i guess i could say

``who among us has the courage to love?``

it is indeed so difficult to love here in the subcontinent.

When I love (a) pakistani(s) I will be considered a traitor. ``yahan pachaas crore ladkiyan mein se koi nahin milee kya?``

If I praise the beauty of Kaghan, smug smiles will say it`s *``LITTLE`` * Kashmir, and we have the larger one (though barely)

When I say damn I admire the way the pakistanis have advanced so much after a huge amount of bad luck / hardship then blank stares will confront me.

If I say ``algorithm`` came from al-Khwarizmi, some stupid idiot will say it was in some Hindu scripture.

When I want to learn Urdu, people ask me whether I shouldn`t learn Malayalam first.

Knowing and loving Pakistan makes me appreciate my country more - in some strange ``balanced`` way. Why view Pakistan as an impediment to membership of some mythical pantheon of super-states?

Why indeed.

Aniruddha Karim Shankar - kream77@yahoo.com

Touching...sad...the image of the child makes one want to weep.

Assalmlaikum:

Saima,

good words! :)

The poem is for the little minds who have posted to imply that Pakistan is the black omen that stands a barrier to peace.



Temporal:

Is this what you were waiting for?

And to the guy who is sad Pakistanis don`t let him love India:

Please do :) Our concern was for you to figure out right and wrong, but if you want to dwell therein, you should not. HIhiwehkfrjirje! (It`s a blessing in Sanskrit)

Courage to Love:



You call the effort sensitive

You call it an effort?

You wonder why we are hate-mongers

You forsake all hurt?

You measure God in stars

Oh well, he/she doesn`t mind

You crush the flowers of the ground

Oh what deserving love from your kind

Try to unite the moon and morn:

Try to die

You didn`t understand self-determination then

Now, ``just`` is a far cry

Yes, peace is what a street-dweller wants

Ulcers and all

Sure, facts have sieved out the hour glass

Does Honor fall?

Courage to love: a beautiful essence of life:

frequently used in the monsoon rain

To be loved, to make loveable ones` self:

Untouched terrain

If only I could make this sensitive

I`d be less uncouth

But, I`m chained by generations

Truth is me, and I do ouch!

Wassalam,

Aisha Fayyazi Sarwari

Who among us has the courage to love?

Good question... I have a few more....

Who among us has the grace

to accept that other`s books or crutches may be as vital as the ones that they lean on?

Who among us has the strength

to discover that one may not need a book in order to be good?

Who among us has the sense

to understand that all that matters is earth, wind, water & love?

Who among us has the maturity

to understand that other`s desires matter as much to them as our do to us?

Who among us that spew hatred for Saffron realize

that had they been born Saffron they`d be spewing hatred for Green?

That the problem is not Saffron or Green. The problem is hate!

That was for the smart ones.

Now the following is for the morons (you know who you are)

Lets look at the following variables:

C = Chowkwallah

L = Love

H = Hatred

S = Saffron

G = Green

Assumption: Saffron & Green are both capable of some good, which is X:

S + G = X (Not a Zero Sum Game, get it?)

Scenario 1: Chowkwallahs are Hateful

C = H

--- C (S+G) = H

--- CS + CG = H (Saffron Chowkwallah + Green Chowkwallah = Hate)

Scenario 2: Chowkwallahs are Loving

C = L

--- C (S+G) = L

--- CS + CG = L (Saffron Chowkwallah + Green Chowkwallah = Love)

This only works based on the assumption that S + G is a non-zero positive integer. If you assume that S & G are polar opposites:

i.e. S = -(G)

--- S + G = 0

Then all of the above equations fall apart.

So in summary therefore:

1. Should anybody here want any results whatsoever, this CANNOT be a zero sum game. S + G must be a positive!

2. Should anybody here want a favorable outcome to this experiment called Chowk, Chowkwallahs cannot be Hateful!

QED GENIUSES!!!

Regards,

Latif Chappu.

P.S: er... should that be genii?

What BS is this?

latif chappu - this does not ness come from reading your post but the one thing all chowk-wallahs/ies/sters seem to have in common is way too much free time on their hands (ME included) - dont you think : )

aicha

Dear Saima:

I have a fairly poor aesthetic sense when it comes to modern poetry (temporal knows it very well; sorry temporal). Nontheless, I appreciate your concern for the child(ren), hate and love, death and survival, ulcers and healing, cry and care, and above all in our inability to understand the language of humanity.

Thanks!

Sincerely, Bilal Ahmad

To: Yaawah Latifay Hamdani

What is BS?

My post or Saima`s Article?

If it`s my post you are referring to then let me say this: If there is anything I can be accused of is a little deliberately weak humor and/or `too much time on my hands` (aicha included). There is no need to get snippy about it (to quote your favorite candidate). A classic giveaway of an insecure hatemonger is that he gets agitated when you ask him not to get agitated. So I will not make the mistake of asking you to simmer down. Blaze away by all means. Not that anybody here cares anymore!

And if it`s Saima`s article you are referring to then allow me to enlighten you. Saima IS CHOWK STAFF. She is almost single handedly credited of holding her nose as she reluctantly puts up your drivel on this web site every 3 minutes. In the interest of free speech and at the risk of sullying her precious fora she allows YOU a platform to impose your nonsense. I`d be very careful pissing her off.

Kindest Regards,

Latif Chappu.

Looks like you`re a very sensitive soul Saima.

It was a touching poem. But we all fall victim to hate at one point or another, no matter how hard we try not to (just look at the way YLH interacts with others and how people interact with him.)

Hate begets hate, and I`ve fallen victim to that as well (sharminda).

But people like you could pound some sense into our minds with this message.

Latif chappu #8,

Don`t mess with our minds please. It`s hard enough to understand some posts here. :))

well said Aisha Sarwari!

Oh and I forgot Omar Pheonix in my list of patriots....

Excellent work here Saima Shah!


Khushwant Singh in the Hindustan Times today:

``For the Prime Minister’s attention``

Khushwant Singh

There are days when I think we have no government in the country. Lawlessness reigns everywhere. There is chaos in the city with mobs on the rampage, stoning and burning buses. People miss flights and trains because they can’t make it on time. If sick, they die before they get to a hospital. Those who manage to reach one, get no relief because doctors are on strike.

For days on end, we got no letters. Postmen go on strike. No money orders for those who urgently need to pay school or college fees, buy food or clothes. In some parts of the Capital, there is no electricity. What is worse is that all the netas have no time to discuss our real problems. They are busy wrangling with each other on whether or not a temple should be built on the ruins of a destroyed mosque.

To cap it all, it’s the Prime Minister who set the ball of confusion rolling by saying that the ‘nation’s desire’ to build the Ram mandir is yet to be fulfilled.

Mr Prime Minister, years of leadership have put you in the habit of talking to people but rarely ever do you listen to what they have to say. I am a part of the nation; you did not bother to ask about the mandir-masjid business. I have no desire to see Shri Ram’s temple erected on the debris of a place of worship destroyed by people blinded by hate. I have no doubt that Shri Ram Chandra Ji would not approve of vandalism practised in his name.

The trouble is that whenever you lend your ear to narrow-minded bigots, you tend to make statements which you, as a intelligent person, must know as not being in the nation’s interest. Millions of us look up to you to keep the rising tide of intolerance under control. Your statement on the Ram mandir disappointed us. Don’t shake our faith in your leadership. I wish you a happy, healthy and prosperous New Year.``


Looks like things are pretty bad in India too...

Ras

Saima
Good stuff, but if you don`t mind, there are a few people here whom I would rather not love :-).

Seriously, though, a rampaging elephant cannot be stopped by throwing flowers. Love has to be more than gentle emotions or beautifully-crafted peotry. Love has to be a religion, a philosophy and a political movement or a `morcha`. I`ll be waiting for the bugles to call :-).

Sadhana

ylh #14

There u go again ...

---SN

HATE?

THe political message in the poem is un-acceptable. The word ``hate`` has no meaning at international level-the proper term would be ``adverse relationships``. This ``hate`` at individual level plays a vital part in the our collective growth and no matter what we do the process of ``natural selection`` will continue. The name of the game is ``survival of the fittest``-it doesnt matter whether this war is fought at Siachin or at Wall Street-the intended result is same. The honorable and non-hypocritical option would be to accept the ground realities. When people of sub-continent will realize that the survival depends on ``peace`` they will work for peace-presently we should enforce our defense mechanism.

Urstruly #19

I am no art critic, but I understand that a poet/poetess is allowed certain liberties? … Samia quite easily be using “hate” for “adverse relationships”… what would replacing “hate” with the word(s) “adverse relationships” do to the aesthetics of this poem? I don’t know… what I do know is that a poem such as Saima’s should not be subjected to intense technical scrutiny or criticism for the symbols used to convey the message (other than from aesthetic/artistic/poetic point of view) …

Your perspective vis-a-vis peace in the subcontinent is interesting though.

“The name of the game is ``survival of the fittest``-it doesnt matter whether this war is fought at Siachin or at Wall Street-the intended result is same. The honorable and non-hypocritical option would be to accept the ground realities.”

Is it always hypocritical or dishonorable not to accept the ground realities or go along with the status quo?

In your rather blunt and ``haqeeqat pasandana`` response, do I notice a hint of frustration with continuing senseless violence in our region?

Take care and stay cool!

How is choota urstruly? :)

Latif Chappu:

I loved your equation.

Quod erat indeed.

Aniruddha Karim Shankar (kream77@yahoo.com)

nice poem... ``who among us has the courage to love?``

umm...St? Theresa?

if I had written the poem, I would have substituted `India` for ``subcontinent``...that makes you a better person than me and me, more realistic than you

regards

Kabuli

sarwari (reply#7), thanks for your blessings in sanskrit.i hope no sanskrit knowing person read your post otherwise he would have fainted.can anyone knowing sanskrit inform sarwari what is the actual word for blessings in sanskrit.

Re: Saima Shah

An excellent poem, which serves as an apt metaphor for our times!

You asked the right question - who has the courage to speak of love...

Sadly, it is not the courage to speak of love, but it is the other equation of the same sentiment, which seems to be more problematic - who has the courage to hear the words of love spoken with love instead of intolerance and rancour?

Ciao!

Dear Saima,

A few wise words from Guns N` Roses ( I hope Axl, Slash, duff, Izzy and Matt get together soon) are in for an order (slightly tweaked by me):

What we`ve got here is failure to communicate

some man you just can`t reach

so you get what we had here last week

which is the way he want it

well...he get it!

Look at your young men fighting

Look at your women crying

Look at your young men dying

The way we`ve done it thrice before

Look at the hate we`re breeding

Look at the fear we`re feeding

Look at the lives we`re leading

The way you`ve done it thrice before

My hands are tied

and millions shift from side to side

and the wars go on with brainwashed pride

for the love of God and our Human rights

and all those things are swept aside

by bloody hands time can`t deny

and are washed away by your genocide

and history hides the lies of our wars

You can`t trust your freedon

when it`s not in yuor hands

when everyones fighting

for their promised lands

And i don`t need you war

It feeds the rich while it buries the poor

your power hungry sellin` soldiers

in a human grocery store

aint that fresh

I don`t need your war

Look at the shoes you`re filling

look at the blood we`re spilling

look at the worlds you`re killing

The way we`ve done thrice before

Look in the doubt we`ve wallowed

look at the leaders we`ve followed

Look at the lies we`ve swallowed

And I don`t wann hear no more

But my hands are tied

For all I`ve seen has changed my mind

But still the war goes on as the years go by

With no love of God or of human rights

Cos all these dreams are swept aside

by bloody hands of the hypnotised

Who carry the flag of homicide

And history bears the scars of our wars

I don`t need one more war...

Take care and best wishes

Omar Phoenix.

Wow,

This scout woman never ceases to amaze me. On one board she proclaims all Indian women as whores which was extremely judgemental, and on the other board she endorses pathetic attempts of defeatists.

Is there no balance, no consistency in any chowky?

Saima: nice poem. Here is one unpublished ``work`` (I seriously kid myself) I wrote as a college student (based on something I saw in real life):

I watch a little girl,

Step across the road,

A heavy load on her head.

A car appears behind her

And blows a sharp horn.

She jumps aside,

Terrified,

Causing amusement to the driver.

Now she moves on as before,

With an expressionless face,

Or do I see a tear,

No she is used to this.

Postscript (and here the poet drops all pretense of rhyme and rythm):

You should be in a home girl,

Enjoying your childhood,

But as the man said,

the biggest crime of poverty is,

That it steals childhood from children.

Masd: You write: ``I love pakistan,but to prove my love to pakistan i should hate india.and if i cant hate india than i must be a lesser pakistani.``

I think it makes you a better Pakistani if you love India as well. And a better muslim if you respect Hinduism as much as you respect Islam.

Re: the iranian king

Does that ``Ivy League`` (my friends got a good laugh out of that one) university you attend offer classes on logic? Surely your education can consist of more than reading the same revisionist attempt at history over and over again and parroting it on Chowk...reminds me of that idiot on 60 Minutes who claimed that the Holocaust never happened and wrote a book about it...some buffoon like you will probably pick it up and talk himself silly quoting from it incessantly.

btw, Have you and that female version of you (sarwari) given any thought to my suggestion of an unholy union? You two can be the Laloo and Rabri of Pakistan.

ylh #27,

Please don`t try your word twisting tactics on me.

It`s not going to work.

I already clarified my position on that board. I have my opinions, you have yours. And I did not call all Indian women ``whores`` like you stated I did.

Try to clear your mind and see everything, not just what you want to see.

I used to think your patriotic passion was ideal, if a bit overzealous , but I`m beginning to believe otherwise. We all need to ``grow up`` but you give that phrase a new meaning.

I admit my mistakes, sometimes I say things I don`t mean in anger. That`s not as bad as blindly walking along the path of hatred that you choose to follow.

Re: Omarphoenix

At last verifiable sighting, Axl was cleaning pools in Beverly Hills. Well, such is rock n` roll!

Do accept my sincere commendations for quoting the most philosophically influential quartet of 80s. Do allow me however, to point out a slight misquote. The first para in `Civil War` is an audio snippet from Paul Newman`s classic `Cool Hand Luke` wherein the `Boss` is using his circular logic to explain why he was punishing Luke. It goes quite like this:

``What we`ve got here is failure to communicate...

Some men you just cant reach, so we get what we had here last weak;

which is the way he wants it. Well, he gets it!

Now... I don`t like it any more than you men.

Hope you take the above minor correction in the right spirit and are morally, spiritually & intellectually better for it.

Kind Regards

Latif Chappu.

P.S:

Some more profound gems from Axl for your kind perusal:

``You got your bitches with the silicone injections Crystal meth and yeast infections Bleached blond hair, Collagen lip projections Who are you to criticize my intentions Got your subtle manipulative devices Just like you I got my vices I got a thought that would be nice I`d like to crush your head tight in my vice- PAIN``

-The tamest & only printable segment from epilogue to `Get In The Ring`

``Aaaaa Eeeeee Yaaaaa Eeeeeee Yaayyyy Yaaayyyyy.......``

-Epilogue from `Don`t Cry`

ylh: #27

i agree with u 100%

miss scout:

`` Hate begets hate, and I`ve fallen victim to that as well (sharminda).``

i guess somewhat of that sharmindagi can be taken of care of if you atleast take back if not apologise on the board you posted that derogatory stuff

According to shameless Saxena

HV Hodson`s History, Bernard Lewis`s History, and

all the History taught in the West is revisionist.

On the other hand History by swami pundit hari Karishna is the true History.

As far as Ivy League is concerned, you have done your nation proud by twisiting my words and lying. Isnt that your ``parampara``? The hallmark of your nation.

For all others and not the shameless Saxena

I had said that Rutgers College, being the 8th Oldest school in the US (formerly Queens College NJ) was an Ivy League school upto 1954 after which

the state of NJ took it over as a state school which disqualified it from the Ivy League. For the record for the last 4 years Rutgers has been offered the status every year but Whitman has turned it down, because the status also calls for a 50% increase in tuition and a more selective admissions policy.I personally also got into NYU and University of Rochester but chose Rutgers because Rutgers is a better buy.

I welcome everyone to research these facts.

No shameless Saxena I dont want you come out of your self imposed ignorance. That too is the hall mark of your nation.

-Yasser Hamdani

I know it is childish but whatever happened to the famous Indian threat that they will destroy Pakistan`s back bone in internet warfare ?

http://www.wired.com/news/politics/0,1283,40789,00.html

Among the prominent Indian sites that have been defaced this year are those belonging to the Indian

Parliament, the Indian army in Kashmir, prominent television network Zee, Bhabha Atomic Research

Centre, newspaper Asian Age and the Indian Institute of Science.

Corporate sites like Glaxo Wellcome`s have been attacked as well.

It`s been something of a two-way street, although the assault on Pakistani sites by Indian hackers has not

been as substantial.

The Pakistani government`s site, www.pak.gov.pk, for example, has been defaced by those who claim to

be ``patriot Indians.`` There have also been reports that Indian hackers have repeatedly tried unsuccessfully

to hack into the Internet edition of a popular moderate Pakistani newspaper called The Dawn. During the

recent Kargil war, the Indian government had blocked access to The Dawn.

The Indian hackers have left a message to their Pakistani counterparts saying that they should ``keep their

hands off Indian sites.``

Among threats of ``breaking the Internet backbone`` of Pakistan, the hackers have also warned that ``India

is the superpower of Information Technology.``

The Pakistani hacking has made many Indian sites take a fresh look at how to protect themselves. Satish

Chatterjee, a network administrator in site-hosting company Powernet, said the best solution is just to

monitor the sites 24 hours a day.

``Most of the hackers do nothing more than take the user to a different URL where they have posted

pro-Pakistan messages,`` Chatterjee said. ``Frankly, most Indian corporate sites are easy targets for

Pakistani hackers because they contain static HTML pages.

``It`s difficult to hack a database-driven site. These are some of the things that those owning the sites

should understand.``

hough the Indian government`s Information Technology bill that was passed this year has

not addressed the problem of hacking to everybody`s satisfaction, a body called Cyber Crime

Unit has been created. This unit is a branch of the Central Bureau of Investigation.

Though the main task of the CCU is to grapple with more serious crimes, like the theft of

credit card information, it has also kept a close watch on Indian hackers who are

enthusiastic about defacing Pakistani sites.

``We have managed to disable some Indian hackers` sites that have distributed hacking tools

or pasted slogans against Pakistan,`` said Sundari Nanda, the superintendent of police

attached to the CCU. ``We are working on ways to deal with hackers from Pakistan like G

Force and Doctor Nuker. Now there has been an increased activity from a group called

Attrition, which used to target Israeli sites and has now shifted its focus to India.

``We ourselves got a mail just the other day. The fact that it was a very heavy mail made us

cautious. It was a virus that we traced back to an ISP in Pakistan.``

A spokesman for Attrition vehemently denied the group was involved in deleterious activities.

``Attrition is a non-profit hobby website that tracks hacker activity, specifically web page

defacements, and reports on it,`` said a spokesman for Attrition. ``No member of attrition is

involved in hacking, web defacing, or any type of comptuter crime.``

Nanda said that the Intelligence Bureau has been notified about the virus it received. But an

official there admitted, ``There is no high-level coordination between the governments of India

and Pakistan to curb this cross-border cyberwar. The general perception among decision

makers is that the hacking has so far been harmless, nothing more than immature

expression of patriotism from both sides.``

Since Kashmir cannot be won over the Internet, it appears, both the governments are taking

it a bit easy.

Re: iranian king

Now, now, now...don`t get snippy with me else I`ll chop ...err, we won`t get into that now. BR>

``...all the History taught in the West is revisionist.``

Nope, didn`t say that. But how predictable of you to dig yourself into yet another rat-hole and make a fool of yourself. If the ``West`s`` history is what you believe, I have 101 historians whom you would get a ``bee up your ass`` over should I quote them and should you choose to read them. Who do you think coined the term ``Islamic Fundamentalism`` and ``Islamic Terrorism?`` Some Indian? Wake up mullah...this isn`t about Western vs. Eastern versions of history...it`s about your blind obsession with revisionist theories which you incessantly parrot on Chowk. And when the more learned Bilals of the world offer opposing sources, you break into fits like a crackhead starved for crack.

As for the Ivy League issue, don`t get defensive. I am sure Ivy League presidents are losing sleep over when Rutgers will join them.

Errata to post 28

1. 80s should read late 80s & early 90s.

2. `last weak` should read `last week`.

Thousand apologies.

Latif Chappu

Saxena,

Just because you are born ... ahem... without equipment doesnt mean you look at others enviously. I know it isnt Eastern vs Western but I have never quoted any author other than the western authors... and you called them revisionists.

All the authors I quoted in my opinion are not revisionists. HV Hodson etc... are very well educated on the contrary.

Yasser Hamdani

I want you to give me specific examples where I revised History?

Please do so. The only thing I did mention was the India was never under one sovereign rule except under the British and Asoka. Now if that is a lie then I dont know what the truth is. I believe it is Swami pandit Hari Karishna who are the revisionists....

As for Islam, let us not forget that most scholars of Islam like Watt, Esposito and Lewis consider Islam the most tolerant civilization. So your whole analysis is based on BS taught by certain ethnocentric writers like collins etc and by your Pandits...

Yes please quote one credible author who says that Islam was an intolerant civilization. Please do!

Yasser Hamdani

Lassie collie dear and Timmy (YLH),

Please give it a rest and leave me alone. You guys are following me with fangs everywhere. Don`t you have better things to do?

And Lassie, before you congratulate YLH on his derogatory comments about me, you should pay more attention to the hatred spewed by him constantly.

By the way Lassie, if you have a problem with me, use your own mind to interact with me, instead of agreeing with every desi male idiot who has somethng to say about me.

Don`t be a typical desi woman and nod your head in front of men.

ylh ``I personally also got into NYU and University of Rochester but chose Rutgers because Rutgers is a better buy.``

What is this paranoia about Rutgers? I`ve heard it`s a desi haven for ABCD`s looking to score.

:)

And by the way, NYU and University of Rochester aren`t very difficult schools to get into, in case you didn`t know that.

Re: scout

``What is this paranoia about Rutgers? I`ve heard it`s a desi haven for ABCD`s looking to score.``

Exactly!! Although I am sure there are exceptions, by and large it is a haven for ABCD kids to score and waste daddy`s money. Esp at undergrad level.

``And by the way, NYU and University of Rochester aren`t very difficult schools to get into, in case you didn`t know that.``

Right again...I can`t believe someone would go about bragging about NYU or Rochester (again, there must be exceptions there too).

scout #: 39

trust u to resort to idiosyncrasies

``you should pay more attention to the hatred spewed by him constantly.``

acha, so i should pay more attention to him to divert myself from the hatred spewed by YOU???

``

By the way Lassie, if you have a problem with me, use your own mind to interact with me, instead of agreeing with every desi male idiot who has somethng to say about me. Don`t be a typical desi woman and nod your head in front of men

``

atleast backup from statements with logic! but going by ur twisted dumb point, i guess u`ll take me seriously if i agree with sadna and zahra??? and the point stressed here is this miss scout, that no matter who i agree with, male or female, the end result is still the same!!! and it just aint` us, i am sure u probably don`t make sense to ur own self either!

A gentle reminder that there are certain guidelines for InterActing on Chowk. Over the last few months we have allowed discussions to diverge and digress quite a lot. The hope was that over time we will regress to a ``steady state`` level and in the process discover and celebrate an indigenous Chowk culture/identity.

In the process we have succeeded in establishing the fact that Chowk can rise above most forms of prejudice and pettiness - but we still have a long way to go before we can proudly proclaim that Chowk has intrinsically become so strong and vibrant that troublemakers are instantly identified and made to feel unwelcome.

Gentle reader, writer, lurker, settler, squatter -please share your good self with Chowk and lets not insult each other.

sincerely
Chowk Staff

dear saima,

loved it. please write more.

dear chowk staff,

i love everybody.

shandana

slink,

what the hell has happened to you? why do you love everybody including urstruly? :)

i sense a profound change in your outlook/world view in the past few weeks... what`s going on?

have you become bhuddist or something? (something should not be taken as ``french fries`` here :))

LOL fairdinkum!

no i haven`t suffered any major trauma to my brain (recently), or become a buddhist (though i do have a sudden inexplicable interest in taoism). why the hell do i suddenly love everybody including urstruly? i`m lulling them into a false sense of security....

:) shandana

Taoism:

Tao (pronounced ``Dow``) can be roughly translated into English as path, or the way. It is basically indefinable. It has to be experienced. It ``refers to a power which envelopes, surrounds and flows through all things, living and non-living. The Tao regulates natural processes and nourishes balance in the Universe. It embodies the harmony of opposites (i.e. there would be no love without hate, no light without dark, no male without female.)``

slink, i am worried about you :)

Chowk Staff

Finally a statement indicative of pragmatism, and the will to look closely into the matter. Yes Chowk has a long way to go to immediately single out troublemakers and make them unwelcome. Right now, not the instigators, but the instigated are being victimized.

Thanks for making that subtle distinction. Hope the troublemakers learn.

Your Biggest Fan :)

YLH

Scout,

If I choose to defend what I believe in, you automatically assume that its hatred? Have you not the decency to see for yourself who started what?

In any event, I have an ideological problem with the Indian Political elite, you on the other branded all Indian women as whores. Despite all my

``hatred`` I shall not judge people because that is God`s work. My interest in the debate is political, and my attempt is to put an end to a systematic attempt by the Indians and certain people from our side to undo the very basis of Pakistan.

Pakistan is under continuous onslaught from inside and out. Outside it is continuous malicious Indian propaganda, and inside it is the insidious influence of the fundamentalist section of our society.

People are being misled, sometimes in the name of

ideological wishy washiness and other times in the name of religion. You talk about hate, I think it is a crime against humanity that we mislead people by appealing to their emotions. Why do I emphasize so much on Jinnah and why do I talk about Ataturk?

Because in Jinnah and Ataturk we have two leaders nay the only two leaders who were not trapped and lured into false pretences. Jinnah could have stuck with his title, Ambassador of Hindu Muslim Unity, but he did what he saw was necessary, and after the creation of Pakistan he was not lured in by mirage of an ``Islamic`` state and made that proclamation of secularism.

At Chowk my attempt has been to present an extreme swing of the pendulum for it seems that for the most part chowkies, Indians and those who are have images of intellectual greatness have some how come to the conclusion that the only way they will be accepted here is constant criticism of Pakistan.

I hope Chowk Staff reads this because they too are at occasions deluded.

-Yasser Latif Hamdani

Yasser:

Good Posts!

PS: A very happy new year to you.

Take Care,

Thankyou Zahra,

Yasser Hamdani

Re: ylh

I think the Chowk Staff`s post was directed at you as much as at anyone else. What are you chattering about for?

ylh #49,

Please don`t misquote me. However reasonable your arguments and thoughts may be, I find it hard to digest when my words are twisted.

I have nothing more to say to you for the time being. You may interact with me, when you present the truth, not something I didn`t say.

Otherwise, Good bye and good riddance.

I apologize to Saima and Chowk staff for these digressions.

Well as long as you are reprimanded I am happy.

:)

Scout

I apologize if you think I twisted your words. Maybe you are right.

Yasser

Slink

I hope you dont love me...

Yasser

Fairdinkhum

Sorry for the digression, but please write more about Buddhism Taoism and Confucianism. I am taking a winter session class on Eastern Religions.... Others please jump in.

Sorry if this discussion digresses in the future.

Yasser Hamdani

ylh #55,

apology accepted. i apologize too for saying mean things.

and i apologize to lassie and indian women for one or two sentences on another board.

group hug?

(vomit)

Zahid Sahib: While I agree with your reasoning (and indeed went through something similar myself many years ago when I decided to migrate), you seem to be justifying to yourself more than anyone else the reason you are leaving your homeland. No need to justify, you are under no obligation to spend your entire life in the land in which you were born.

You will never forget Pakistan I know (you can take a man out of his country, but you cannot take the country out of the man). Your children (if still infants, or unborn) will probably surprise you (as mine did) by considering ``their flag`` to mean a flag other than the crescent and star you no doubt grew up to love.

And you will no doubt return to visit Pakistan. I hope you will never one obligation that you have, as all of us refugees (or escapees) from the third world have: That obligation is to do what you can to alleviate the conditions that caused you to migrate to begin with. This may mean contributing funds (e.g. a to a charity), it may mean contributing your time.

The brain drain will then, in the long run, become a brain gain for Pakistan. And one day, you may decide to come back (hasnt happened yet, but it will one day).

Excuse me;

but is this Chowk or Melrose Place where every character sleeps with others husband, wife, girlfriend, and boy friend, with all possible permutations and in the end everybody apologizes to each other and the episode ends with everybody saying ``let`s just be friends``.

Chowksters! Please keep the hate alive, it is necessary to keep decipline and sanity in discussion.

Chowk Staff:

Any control on posts Murda Baad.

I think the intended objectives (as per your post) can still be achieved by giving more time. I already filter the posts that I read. I use scroll bar while reading YLH, sadhana, Mohajir and Rsaxena. It saves time.

Fairdinkum:

Please stop talking to people about me like I am a lost puppy :)

Slink:

I almost wetted my pants.

Urstruly #60, ``but is this Chowk or Melrose Place where every character sleeps with others husband, wife, girlfriend, and boy friend, with all possible permutations......``

Khuda na karay! I`m offended. Take it back I say!

Reg: Reply#32

``I personally also got into NYU and University of Rochester but chose Rutgers because Rutgers is a better buy.``

wow! what presitgious institutions we are talking about here(NYU and..ahem..Univ. of Rochester!!)

;-)

YLH is unintentionally funny, almost like a badly scripted flick.

finally an explanation for all the twisted and concocted logic, in his arguments.

Scout # 61

OK I take it back; I let you have your 15 minutes of greatness (I had mine).
:)

ALL Interactors, readers

Thanks very much for your comments. They are extremely precious to me.

Latif Chappu: Your humour kept this board lively--but to clear any misconceptions--Chowk is a joint effort of all the editors, interactors and readers.

Temporal: Delighted to view your thoughts. The absence was due to time constraints and some self control--thanks for the comments as always.

Masd and Karim Shankar: your comments compensated for the entire exercise--delighted to hear the resonance..

ahmadb, neurogen, Ras, Sadna, Zahra, Slink, Kabuliwala, Ferozk, tahmed, fairdinkum and all--thanks thanks and thanks for the time taken.

an aside: The conversation was simply awesome till ahem, some of us forgot the topic..... Positively speaking that appears to be Chowk`s signal for ``NEXT, Please!`` So, lets move on, indeed.

egalitarian_brahmin? Is n`t that an oxymoron? Would not egalitarian_human be better? Why brahmin ?

Just some questions!

Urstruly #60

Are you sure, chowk has started to do chowkidari. I doubt it.

While you read by scrolling some of the posters named, I close my eyes and press the button on right lower end.

Mein Janta Hun Kia Woh Likhen Gai.

ylh #49

After reading your post I remembered a statement by MQM leader many years back.

Think and join MQM :-)

Scout #40

With apology, I had not seen the zanana behaviour of you.

Sarzanish. Latarna.

Baccha Ro De ga.

Ras Siddiqui# 16

``Looks like things are pretty bad in India too.``

Sh--Sh. It is a crime to say something like this. Don`t forget the song of democracy and secularism with one voice.

Aik Hein Hum.

Latif Chappu #8

Your nomination for Nobel Prize this year is certain. The scientist will wonder at the marvel of twenty first century. And mathematicians will reorganize their books.

Exactly 100 years before you Einstein was doing similar things in his patent office and you see the result. Atomic Bomb.

Latif Chappu #8

Sorry!

We miss you in Pakistan.

Check out India and Pakistan!

Global Trends 2015:

A Dialogue About the Future With Nongovernment Experts

NIC 2000-02, December 2000

This paper was approved for publication by the National Foreign Intelligence

Board under the authority of the Director of Central Intelligence.

Prepared under the direction of the National Intelligence Council.

http://www.odci.gov/cia/publications/globaltrends2015/index.html

Dear hobyty:

You wrote one of the most eloquent and moveing passage:

``He gives voice to what so many others are thinking and what others who do not have the level of Mr. Afridi’s education, are doing. Mr. Afridi wants an economy that values him, rewards him for his dedication and expertise. He wants a civil society which is inclusive, tolerant of all stakeholders and is respectful of the dignity of individual persons; a legal system that protects and upholds that tolerance and dignity. He wants Laws that do not function to deny equality of rights, protection or exclude or differentiate the quality of justice among citizens. A State primarily concerned with the welfare of citizens and the creation of opportunity for citizens.``

Indeed -- ``Who objects to such a Pakistan?``

But then again you end it on a wrong ``sum`` by bringing again the same hackneyed untrue phrase -- ``all those who reject values such as freedom of choice, conscience, personal liberty and equality of opportunity, inherent in tolerant, dynamic Islam.``

The modern day Islam is anything but ``dynamic``.

Why not opt for a simple -- progressive, democratic, SECULAR Pakistan?

#73 Egalitarian_brahmin:

Thanks. I understand.

u live in a utopia

war was, is and always shall be a reality

only the strong survive

can u enlighten me with any era of human history when wishful thinking like that of the author was prevalent

adnan-672

I couldnt resist replying:

War ensures that the most brutal survive--`strong` is too nice a word.

Just because something hasnt happened is not a reason to say that it can never happen in future.

If u look at the course of history--rather than war, peace processes, negotiations, and human rights activism ensure that the world we live in is livable.

Lastly, cynicism is the resort of the weak...:)

``Lastly, cynicism is the resort of the weak...:)

War ensures that the most brutal survive--`strong` is too nice a word.``


Dear Ms. Shah,

What have you been reading ? care to share your booklist with us ? Did you come up with all those insights all by yourself ?

I am often feel perplexed and frustrated by the ``macho`` people who beat their chest over some tough ideaology (an attitude they conveniently term ``realistic``). It is horrid people like them who created this ``reality``.

Shiraz

IT IS AGOOD EFFORT BUT,NOT FOR THE CRITICAL SAKE,

THE WRITING CARRIES A BIT IMMATURE STY;L ANYWAY THE DISCOURAGEENT WAS NOT THE AIM...

ALLAH HAFIZ

KOI

HASSAN

I belong to the generation which was young when the British left India, my grand-motherland, when we were singing the poem by Allama Iqbal `` Hindi hein hum wattan he Hindostan hamara, hum bulbulen hein iski yih gulsitan hamara``. We were inspired by Mahatma Gandhi and Pundit Nehru but also dreamed for a small homeland of our own called Pakistan as envisioned by Qaid-e-Azam Mohd Ali Jinnah, whom we heard speaking and with whom we walked for miles in `Jaloos` as young boys. What an inspiring personality he was for the youth of those days. But we could never foresee that our dream would become a nightmare. Pakistan which was envisioned mainly as a political solution of religious hatred in India failed miserabely to achieve that objective. Rather it added fuel to the fire. As it is, our generation is now ending up as a failed generation with a sense of deep disappoinent for what we are bequeething to our children - a truncatd portion of a great motherland with horror of sectarian carnage and religious terrorism coupled with ever looming fear of atomic holocaust. May God forgive us!.