A Forgotten Hero Named Jassa

Hi.... My name is Irfan Gakkar .... I want to know the history of Gakkars.... Presently we are in Gujarat and according to sorces we have sifted here somewere before 200 years ..

I want to know the entire history of Gakkars , if anyone have it please help me ...

Re: # 76
Hi,
I think you maybe talking about Bhattia Sikhs, not bhatti sikhs. There are Bhatti Jat Sikhs, which marry other jats. I am also related to them. Bhattias however marry amongst themselves. Oh yes and there are also Bhatti, Minhas etc Rajputs. As for religous identity they primarily adopted hindu identity during the Singh Sabha era in the late 19th and early 20th century.

Khizr Hayat Tiwana, is he any relation of Sardar Fateh Khan Tiwana?

sameer its a great work done by you.

outstanding is all i can say

An excellent 3-piece story on the status of primary education in modern India

Here is an excellent 3-part series on the status of education in India:

http://www.csmonitor.com/durable/2001/02/14/fp13s1-csm.shtml

Thanx Sameer, see what haste can cause. You clearly mentioned ``current prime minister`` and I stupidly mentioned a ``previous prime-minister``. That ``Gujranwala`` thing was a big bait and I fell for it :-).

Cheers

Mohathir Mohammad of Malaysia!!!

well..I cheated. I just read your answer on the other forum:)

That is very iteresting. Were his elders just living in Gujranwala because of business or jobs Or they were really native Punjabis?

DullaBhatti, Hamsab, Pankaj:

The answer I was looking for is Mahathir Mohammed, current prime minister of malaysia, for almost 20 years. His grandfather( and possibly his grandmother too) migrated to Malaysia from Gujranwala. His mother was a native Malay. he only brings this up when campaigning among the 7 percent population of Malaysia of sub-continent origin, though mostly from South India. The immigration to Malaysia was mostly in rubber plantation.

Most of the immigrants to Fiji, Surinam, Guyana, Trinidad and Tobago came from Bihar and UP-in the area of sugar plantation.

SameerJB # 130

Dosanjh, Prime Minister of British Columbia

Mohinder Chaudhary? but he was not PM back then. or was he?

Sorry Pankaj, your answer is wrong. I. K. Gujral is not a current prime minister. He was born in Jhelum, probably of Khatri or Brahmin origin.

Let me give you a further hint. Few years back, there were three prime ministers with ``Punjabi`` background, two by birth and third through his grandfather. They were I. K. Gujral, Nawaz Sharif and...............

Sameer #128

``Name a current prime minister of a country whose grandparents (or grandfather?) were Jats from Gujranwala``

Who else! Mr I.K. Gujral, former PM of India.

Cheers

Dulla Bhatti, the Jat: Thanks for posting about Khizr Hayat Tiwana. He was more lucky than smart, to be the chief minister of Punjab. It was due to either retirement of Sardar Shaukat Hayat Khan (no relation with Tiwana, Shaukat was from Wah, district Campellpur whereas Khizr was from Shahpur or Sargodha) or untimely death of Shaukat Hayat Khan (I need to look into some book to find out which was the case). I have even heard from some old folks suggesting that had Shaukat survived, there would not have been partition.

Anyway, on a lighter note about Jat, here is a quiz for you. Name a current prime minister of a country whose grandparents (or grandfather?) were Jats from Gujranwala. They migrated during British Raj.

Dulla Bhatti:

It`s a sad story! Late Khizr Hayat`s son(Samar) from his last wife(i guess)went to school with my brother. It was a very sad episode. Sometimes, one wonders what`s the value of human life; regardless of the ancestry, lineage and monetary status. These damn feuds are inhuman and barbaric in this day and age. I say, ``this day and age`` because you`ll like to think that with more awareness there will be less hostility and pagal pun. I guess that is an idealistic view!

Take Care

For Sameer and others: While surfing the web I found this very informative article about Hizr Tiwana written by some journalist some time last year. I don`t have the original reference of the writer, date or the publisher but it sounds intersting.



LOCATED in the Shahpur tehsil of Sargodha district, Kalra is the birthplace of the man whose family sustained British rule in India for over a century. The Kalra

Estate is equidistant from Khushab in the north and Sargodha to the east-west, or 25 kilometres on either side. To be more precise, it is situated some six kilometres

from Jhawarian. Khizr Hayat was the last of the Tiwana scions who served the Raj with unflinching loyalty. Had Khizr Hayat Khan supported the Quaid, the map of

the subcontinent - and more so of the Punjab - would have been quite different. The remnants of the Raj can be seen - even engraved on the chieftains` graves -

scattered everywhere. The names and insignias of the regiments which Khizr`s father served are inscribed on the high gate to the family graveyard. The tombstone on

Umar Hayat grave has the traditional turban in stone, now half-broken and heralds with pride the Raj. The tombstone speaks particularly of his operations in Tibet,

the Kangra Valley, etc. His son`s grave bears neither his name nor his achievements.

Kalra Estate, spread over 600 squares (15,000 acres) of land comprised 11 villages and was owned by the Tiwanas. According to an inscription on Sahib Khan`s

grave, he acquired Mehrga village in 1845 and founded the Kalra Estate in 1860. Initially, it was a meadow occupied by the Lak tribesmen, another feudal

community of the area. After 1857, it was leased out to the Tiwanas and, later, sold to them under the abadkari scheme.

The ghost of Khizr Hayat haunts the place and the atmosphere and there seems to be some sort of panic in the air. The tenants and non-Tiwana residents of Kalra

appear some how scared of the unknown. Their panic-stricken eyes follow strangers everywhere. Even half a century after the end of the Tiwana autocracy, the air

at Kalra is heavy with oppression.

Like the estate and the establishment, the Tiwana graveyard looks haunted. According to the estate manager, Mr Lal Khan, a tombstone had been put up twice on

Khizr Hayat`s grave but it disappeared on both occasions. And now he lies in a grave without an epitaph. As regards the condition of the grave, it had better be left

unsaid. Two of his wives lie buried next. With broken marble tombstones scattered over them, Khizr`s mother also lies buried in the family graveyard but the tomb

has been sealed off. There is a mosque along the graveyard but it seems to have been unattended for months, if not years. The ruined well in the mosque is another

sad comment on the past grandeur of the estate.

According to estate sources, Khizr used to patronise a deeni madressah which produced a hundred huffaz every year. Estate sources credited Khizr with the running

of an orphanage and a hospital but there is no sign of any such place at present. According to Sir Malcolm Darling, Khizr was hated in his home district because he

was ``miserly``.

In 1935, Khizr had a row with his father over the mismanagement of family finances. Umar Hayat`s personal assistant, Malik Ghulam Muhammad, misappropriated

estate revenues. Khizr wanted to file a civil suit against him but Umar did not approve. It obliged Khizr, his mother and elder son Nazar Hayat to leave Kalra. Before

the row could be patched up, they stayed with one of Khizr`s friends, Mohan Singh, for one month in Rawalpindi. Mohan Singh gave them Rs50,000 in cash to help

them tide over their financial difficulties. The father and son differed diametrically in character as observed by Khizr`s biographer, Ian Talbot. ``Where Umar was

generous and self-indulgent, Khizr was parsimonious and modest.``

According to Talbot, ``Khizr`s outward display masked an insecurity bred of paternal dominance. The latter may have prompted his numerous marriages,`` according

to close family sources, two of Khizr`s wives were more prominent and held greater sway at Kalra.

According to Kalra sources, Nazar also developed differences with his father and settled permanently in the US. But Nazar loved him intensely and frequently visited

Britain and the US to see him.

According to Talbot, Khizr had married Rehana in 1963. It was his fourth and her fifth marriage. She came from a middle class family. In 1970, she gave birth to

twin sons, Mehr Hayat and Samar Hayat. The former was killed as a teenager in a car crash, while the second, Samar, was murdered. Rehana was also reportedly

murdered by family retainers in 1976, although no case was lodged. These facts were revealed to Ian Talbot by Nazar Hayat in an interview.

The manager told me that Queen Elizabeth, the viceroy and Sir Chhotu Ram visited Kalra once and were feted in the room where we were seated. This building was

once Khizr`s courtroom where he decided minor cases. He used to receive VIPs in an adjacent room which is now being used as a granary with bins lying all along

the walls. Since fear still haunts Kalra, most of Khizr`s life is shrouded in mystery.

Little is known about Khizr`s social and personal life. He had palatial residences in almost all big cities but he loved to stay at Kalra - the place where Khizr, his

father Umar and his grandfather, Sahib Khan, lived and which is known as Tiwana Palace. Sprawling over a vast area and built by Khizr`s father Umar Hayat in

1887, it is a cluster of several big and small buildings. The entrance has a giant wooden gate. On the first floor adjoining the gate, there is a post where Sikh guards

were based.

The guards used to blow a bugle whenever Khizr moved out of the palace for hunting. The boundary has gunholes to beat back any possible attack. Inside the main

gate, there is a lock-up and a courtroom. One has to pass through three huge gates to enter the residential quarters of the palace. Khizr was brought up and

groomed here by a loving mother. The palace had been equipped with all facilities to meet any emergency. It had a stable for horses, brown cows, greyhounds,

godowns, etc. Khizr`s bedroom having a huge wooden door and two windows lies in the north-eastern corner of the residential quarters. The door has been

profusely decorated with wood carvings and its original design has survived the fury of wind and rain. The portion along the innermost gate of the palace contains a

big room where Khizr used to dine with his intimate managers, family members or some special guests. Adjoining the gate is the room of an ``ayah`` who reportedly

nursed one of Khizr`s sons. This part of the palace is undergoing repairs to restore its original design and ceiling embellishments. A dismantled wall mirror used for

dressing purposes is a nostalgic reminder of the past. The room once occupied by the ``ayah`` is also being renovated. The wooden pillars at its entrance have been

restored. The residence of Khizr`s mother was located outside the residential quarters.

There is an akhara to the north of the residential block.

Sources close to the palace disclosed that Khizr used to visit his mother when out of sorts because she was his mentor on sensitive family affairs. According to the

manager, he saw Khizr very sad only twice - first when he resigned as the prime minister of united Punjab in March, 1947 and earlier, when his wife, Sultan Bibi, fell

seriously ill and his estranged son, Nazar, came to Lahore to see her. Both the father and the son cried their hearts out at the Lahore railway station. These are but

only a few stray memories. The real events of Khizr`s life are still shrouded in mystery.

The Kalra Estate and more so the palace, which is now commonly called bhoot mahal (ghost palace) is a desolate place. After passing through the main gate, one

comes across heaps of rubble. Life seems stale and a deadly silence reigns everywhere. Most of the residences are now infested by wasps.

Kalra, where once even the eagles dared not fly, is now a ghost town. Scare defines life. The Sharif family, reportedly intended to buy the estate. Mian Sharif and

Shahbaz were reported to have visited the place for the purpose. But fate decided otherwise.

The estate presented a horrifying spectacle after the partition. The dream of communal harmony nursed by Khizr and Allah Bakhsh were shattered in the aftermath of

partition.

The Tiwanas had to receive the shock of century as strange event took place at Kalra at the end of September, 1947. It involved Jiwan Khan, head of its `langar`.

According to Talbot, ``In the absence of any male members of the family, he staged what amounted to a mini coup d`etat. He took over the running of the estate and

forbade the retainers to allow the Tiwana women folk to leave. On the second day a message for assistance was smuggled out through one of the palace maids who

feigned pregnancy and required her husband to accompany her on a call of nature to the fields. The man walked four miles to Jhawarian from where he went by

tonga to Chak Muzaffarabad. Once Ahmad Yar Tiwana was told of what had happened, he hurried off to Jhawarian police station where constables were sent to

release the ladies. No case was registered against Jiwan Khan as it would involve a loss of face. When Khizr later heard of the episode he generously forgave the

retainer who escaped lightly with a fine.`` Talbot gathered this information during an interview with Nazar Hayat.

Khizr`s public career ended in abject failure. He could not even protect his loyal Hindu and Sikh workers at Kalra. Instead, he went into a self-imposed exile when

Pakistan achieved freedom. He died not in his native home but in distant California and was laid to rest at Kalra.



Sameer: Last weekend I was reading the discussion by Jaspal, you and others about Jatts on the other website. and man It was lot of info from the real world experience about different jat and rajput clans of Punjab.

Now that I look back how politics and religion and society worked in villages around the neighbourhood of my village, I feel these issue do work at the base of all political moves and social behaviour of people. Again it is not a matter of being tribals but it is necessary to uderstand these jatt, non-jatt,arain,kashmiri,khatri, rajput dynamics in order to fully comprehend the society and how it works and to decide how to improve it.

It is easy to say and politically correct to say,not to mention thought as enlightened view by some intellectuals, that we are all the same and any mention of these tribes and discussion is racial motivated. but truth is these things exist and determine the destiny of people atleast in political arena.

DullaBhatti - A Jat proud of a Rajput,Dullah Bhatti.

Sameer

The story of Ibrahim Gardi forms a lesson in the 8th or 9th standard textbook on the great personalities. He set an example before the others. There was also a serial called Marathas on Doordarshan some time back in which the character of Ibrahim Gardi was shown in full detail. His refusal to betray his countrymen against extreme torture and his supreme sacrifice have become an example to emulate. May he live long in our memories!

Sincerely

Dost-Mittur Jee:

A Correction: I wrote in Josh than in Hosh, therefore ended up substituting Z with S. It is Faz`oon and not Fasoo`n!

In the 1st line, the poet is being a little haughty and is showing some Phoon Phaan[fake ego :-)]. He claims with a lot of confidence and pride that he can excercise his writing skills anytime to portray the picture he saw.
[full of himself -- PhuR Marnaa`]

But in the IInd one, he is humbled by the beauty and realizes his incomeptency [Pride hath a fall!]. In other words, he admits the nazzaa`ra is [far better - Fazoon Tur] than his imagination. Keep in mind that he would have used his imagination to bring his claim to fruition.

PS: I said what I said, because I could not even express a tiny bit of what I read in Tusveer`ae` Kashmir. There is far more depth and each time one reads the verses there is an urge to say more and more and more! The best way of understanding and reading poetry is to read it with a conscious imagination, memorize it[you must], go back to it and then apply it where you can :-)

Take Care,

Dulla Bhatti:

Nice Story! I have heard the same view that you`ve narrated, as well as the opposite. I think it depends on how strong your affiliations are! For example, obviously people from one city will have a stronger bonding than the ones who have the same religion but are dwelling all over the world. It`s the phrase: birds of same feather ``love to`` flock together. I have not made it specific to Jats, but I know a lot of people who are very particular about what you`ve mentioned, including some Jats :-) I ain`t one, though I have some relatives who are Jaa`ts.

Sameer:
I have asked an Indian friend [Punjabi] to enlighten the readers of his views on the topic under discussion. His paternal and maternal ancestry is originally from Gujranwala & Lahore. The guy is extremely knowledgeable on all these sub-casts/tribes and their ins and outs. I hope he participates, whenever he gets a chance to look into Chowk.

Later,

Pankaj, dionysus & dost-mittar: Even after saying god-bye, I just could not resist posting another page from history which I copied from another site where I was interacting with a very knowledgeable Jat name Jaspal. Here is his post.

HI SAMEER AND ALL OTHERS,

THANK YOU FOR YOUR KIND COMMENTS.

The jat history is finally a study of peasantry and its struggle against oppression and rise to political conciousness strong enough to move towards taking power itself. History was made by these Republican indepedent Jats of free land holdings however small. Only then could they keep their pride and independence intact. And History is not made by those, Jats or others, who joined the oppressors for jagirs big or small and became the so called big land lords.

Maharaja Suraj Mal/Jaswant Singh in a letter to Abdali reffered to himself as a small Zamindar in Hind and yet challenged Abdali and the Afghan Might to contest.Maharaja Ranjit Singh always used to dress very simply in white. Jats who made history always stayed connected to their roots and identity of their people the egalitarian peasant brotherhood.

And even today all peasent masses of the Indian Sub-continent share a common future.You might be surprised that when Bharatpur`s army fought against the Mughals and Marathas Combine in 1790s,the Gujars who the Jats had earlier subdued to creat a unified force became one of the strongest loyalist element of the Jat Army which also had Muslim Meos in it. These Gujars made a very big scarifice by volunteering for a suicide mission that the Jats had to take to silence the mughal artillery at one of the critical battles. A feat absolutely similiar to the famous charge of Light Brigade in the Crimean War.

These Muslim Meos had at the time of Battle of Kanwha in 1526 AD had taken the side of Rana Sanga of Chittor or Mewar against Babur,as the Meos said that Bubur was a foreigner while Rana Sanga was a neighbouring brother.

The saga of Maratha Artilery General Ibrahim Gardi who did not renounce his loyalty to the Marathas in front of Ahmad Shah Abdali after the Third Battle of Panipat in 1526 AD to get his life spared and be taken in to the Afghan Army to create and command the Afghan artillery. Ibrahim Gardi had said in reply to Abdali`s question that if his life was spared he would go back to Pune to once again create an army to meet Abdali at Panipat and never join Abdali against his brother country men who were Marathas. In an answer to Abdali who Questioned why Gardi being a Muslim had taken the side of Marathas against muslims(Abdali) ,Ibrahim Gardi had replied that to be a muslim did not mean being a traitor to his country or Watan which was Hind. Ibrahim Gardi died rather than renounce his country. And Gardi was considered the greatest Artillery Tactician or general of that time in whole of Asia.For me he is an Immortal Hero.

Jaspal

Sameer

``Next time it is going to be ``A Practical Approach to Revive Pakistan`s Economy``, in a month ``

Thanx! We will wait for your article.

Cheers

There comes a time when you have to say good-bye to things, created for you by others or your own creations. I thoroughly enjoyed interactions on this thread-about the main topic and the subsequent related-topics. It was a great opportunity to discuss topics, otherwise deemed taboo or unimportant, in a very civilized fashion. I salute all those who interacted and stayed away from discussing kil rate of F-16`s, Kashmir, Babri masjid-Ram mandir and other irrelevent issues which would have easily thwarted or truncated the discussion about the issues raised in the article.

Best of luck to all and hope to keep interacting with you at chowk. Next time it is going to be ``A Practical Approach to Revive Pakistan`s Economy``, in a month or so.

Dionysus#111,

``All this re-enforces my conviction that the true divisions in North India and Pakistan are along tribe and caste, not religion. Crude religious hatred has been used quite effectively during the last 50 years to suppress tribe/caste tensions within India and Pakistan.``

I agree. The ferocity of religious hatred can sometimes be mirrored by the ferocity of caste/tribal rivalry and rhetoric. My somewhat limited knowledge of Sikander Hayat Khan is that his opposition to partition was partially based upon his own tribal and caste loyalty: there were Sikh and Hindu branches of his family. Even though they were distant relatives, they took precedence to him over religious differences.

regards

Harpreet

Clan/tribe versus religious division. There is a short story by Illiyas Ghumman called ``ill-koko`` about 1947 whose central thesis is the same that tribal grouping is stronger than religious ones. I am not sure how true it is in real life but this is an intersting story.

Finally the time came for the only land lord Sikh family of the village to leave pakistan and go to India. Many village muslims and new comer panaahgirs attacked sardar`s house. The couple with their only son about 13 yr old hid deep in the back room. The crowd after calling them out lit the house on fire using kerosene oil. As the flames captured the room, the boy came out running, coughing, crying and beging for his life. Father held the son tight so that he can die with them(and not have to convert) but at the last moment mother lets her go as her motherly side overtook her religious faith. The crowd as beating the boy and about to cut his head apart when Chaudhary of the village saved him by saying that kid is asking for forgiveness and he will become muslim so why kill him.

Next morning in front of whole village, his hair were being trimmed. Emotions were running high and many villagers were kind of angry at Chaudhary for saving the Sikh boy. Chaudhary`s friend asked Chaudhary ``why did you save the boy? You had the land dispute with Sardarji in court. If the boy died you would have won the case unopposed`` Chaudhary took a long sigh and said ``Sardar was our jatt bhra. Fighitng with him over land was fun and honorable for me to do. if the boy died the land and house would have been taken by the panaahgirs. What honor would be in fighting over land with people whose zaat I don`t even know?``.

Of course it is paraphrased to the best of my memory as I read it few years ago.

Dost-Mittur Jee:

A clarification on the use of apostrophes and other stuff.

I write using apostrophes and other stuff because I write Arabic with Aa`raab than Aaraab :-), therefore I have the habit of writing Urdu in that style as well. It is also an excellent way of making the pronunciation as well as the right emphasis visible. Probably I would not do that if I am writing Urdu in Urdu, but as it is reading from English alphabets, therefore people who are particular about pronunciation[Talaf`uz]they will write that way.

I have few close Punjabi Indian friends, epitome of knowledge and zeal, who will make a lot of fun of my style. My response - Sanoo`n Kee!

:-)

Dost-Mittur Jee:

Thank you for your sweet wishes. This masterpiece, rich in similes and metaphors, is very close to my heart. [So I needed to take out some time to explain this to you. Sorry for the delayed response].

Each stanza is inter-linked and not a stand-alone entity. You cannot extract words and have them translated literally and expect to understand the context. This heavenly poem was written in September 1936 for a Mushaira in Sri-Nagar. I have just posted three parts out of 49.

Hafeez` words are to be read a number times before one can claim to have a thorough understanding. This poem, in particular, relies heavily on lots of similes and metaphors so you cannot conduct a literal translation -- I repeat! And you should not! [I simply detest whoever does that]

Please keep in mind the poet has taken on the responsibility of describing the natural beauty of Kashmir [Tusveer`ae`Kashmir -- Picture of Kashmir]. He is overwhelmed and not sure, if only his words will suffice and give the true picture what his eyes see. He begins with an inner dialogue. And also wants the reader to be aware of the challenge at hand. The poem starts with the following:

I

[Mau`rkaa Dur`Paesh] Hae`Juzbaa`t Kee Tuf`seer Kaa
Ho Ruha Hae` Tuz`kara Kashmir Main Kashmir Kaa

(Maurkaa is not by itself; it`s Maurkaa Durpaesh Hae`)

Here, the poet is narrating the ``inner turmoil - not the actual war``[Maurkaa Durpaesh Hae`] he is going through to express his feelings about Kashmir while being in Kashmir.


II
Khe`nchana Tusveer Kaa` Lana Hae`[Joo`ae`Sheer Ka]
Rung Bhur Dae Aae`Qalum!Ulfaa`z Main Taa`seer Kaa

[Jooa`ae`Sheer: As described my Sameer.]

It`s ``very difficult`` for the poet to draw the real picture of its beauty, therefore he prays ``Rung Bhurdae` Aae Qalum....``
In other words, O pen! Enrich my words with the color of beauty[of Kashmir] than something only written in black and white.


III

Vujd - This expression is mostly used in reference to Sufi gatherings -- mystic or ecstatic state. When the zikr is in place the audience gets into the mode of Vujd. Again, you cannot imply ``mystic or ecstatic state`` here, as they are only achievable by living beings and not by rocks and stones. So it will mean immense joy and pleasure.

A Gnostic #80

Sorry I didn`t see your post earlier. Greetings to you too, but do we know each other?

dost-mittar #99

My interpretation of your remarks was correct. Reread your post. If some Khatris have started to use the name of one of the elite Jatt clans, what are we supposed to think? (BTW, Kakkar is a Pathan tribe.)

Are you aware of the fact that in West Punjab `Khatri` is universally used as a term of abuse without people even knowing the original meaning of the word? I was into my twenties before I found out that `Khatri` was a Punjabi tribe/caste and not just a swear word.

Even a beggar is a king in his own mind and in his own house. The ego is an important part of human nature. But you flatter yourself greatly if you think that Khatris have ever had the power, influence and prestige of Jatts in Punjab. When even Rajput clans like the Minhas (and many Bhatti sub-clans) call themselves Jatt to raise their social status and political influence, I can only laugh at your comments about what lowly Khatri shopkeepers think about Jatts.

All this re-enforces my conviction that the true divisions in North India and Pakistan are along tribe and caste, not religion. Crude religious hatred has been used quite effectively during the last 50 years to suppress tribe/caste tensions within India and Pakistan. But I don`t think this can continue for much longer. I believe tribe/caste pride is so strong that, unsuppressed, it could even blast the Indian and Pakistani states out of existence.

dost-mittar: maarka means battle or struggle; joo-e-sheer literally means canal of milk (from Farhad digging a canal in Shirin-Farhad) but it generally means a very difficult task and wajd means trance although some people take epileptic seizures as wajd also but wajd is supposed to leave a pleasant feeling.

Hafeez Jullundhari made extensive use of Persian in his poetry of early years. Hafeez might have expressed the feeling of a famous song:

bari mushkil se dil ki beqarari ko qarar aaya

as

qarar-e-beqarari-e-dil, maarka tha joo-e-sheer ka

I hope you get the pont. The -e- (meaning ``of``) and -o- (meaning ``and``) are extensively used in Urdu poetry. More recently, -e- (Persian) is being replaced by -ul- (Arabic) with the same meaning. In near future, with the imposition of sharia in Pakistan or Diwan-Ghalib published by some lashkar, harkat or tehreek press might change the famous line from Ghalib:

sar zer-e-bar-e-minnat-e-darban kiye hoowey

to

sar zer-ul-bar-ul-minnat-ul-darban kiye hoowey

(translation: I am indebted to door-man for constant begging/ requesting to let me in)

RE ZAHRA # 105

God Bless. Made my day/weekend.

Pankaj: I think it was worth exploring a different area which is not commonly discussed among urbanites. That is why you do not see many articles or material available on such topics. Another advantage of discussing such topics is the absence of bickering, name calling and polarized atmosphere in which other India-Pakistan issues are discussed. Any time you keep the religion and politics away, such friendliness and understading is often observed between Indians and Pakistanis-particularly in desi diaspora. How can this common heritage be used to increase the understanding and even relationship between two adverseries and turn it into a decent relationship between two neighbors?

Zahra: I hope dost-mittar has a strong Persianized-Urdu vocabulary to understand Hafeez Jullndhari`s poetry.

Dost-Mittar Jee:

Here are few jewels from the invaluable treasure of Hafeez` Tusveer-ae-Kashmir:

I

Dear Dost

It seems you are also fond of Hindi literature(from your statement about Vaishali...). Although I was educated in a Convent school, I developed deep interest in Hindi literature, thanks to the efforts of my class teacher, and one of my friends. The short stories of Premchand, according to me, rate among the best in the world along with Chekhov, Maupassant, Saki and O`Henry. I can never forget his stories like ``Doodh ka dam``, ``Kafan``, ``Mantra``, ``Panch Parameshwar`` etc. The other authors that really impressed me were Jayashankar Prasad, Mahadevi Verma, Ramdhari Singh Dinkar, Harivansh Rai, and Makhanlal Chaturvedi. I remember a story by Jayashankar Parasad in which he brings out the psychological trauma of a young girl torn between her love and her duty towards her motherland. The end is a bit idealistic in which she sacrifices herself to fulfil her promises made both with her lover and motherland . I believe that story was inspired by the character of Amrapali. Just curious,have you heard of the immortal lines by Jayashankar Prasad:

``Himadi Tung Shring se, Prabudh Budh Bharati,

Swayam-prabha, Samujjwala, Swatantrata Pukarati...

``

Dear Samir

Despite the unfair objections by some people that our talk about the Jats/Rajputs has cast/ethnicity nuances, I find it interesting for some other reasons. From an academic point of view, I think some research into how group identities evolve can ultimately furnish a fresh insight into the evolution of cultural values itself. In my opinion, a serious study in this field entails a multidisciplinary approach combining anthropology, psychology and sociology.

I believe that not much research has been carried out to highlight the fundamental factors responsible for such a rich diversity of cultures prevalent in the subcontinent. The diversity in perception and way of thinking, as you move from north to south, east to west, in India always amazed me. May be future scholarships produce some insightful analysis, instead of simply stating some dubious historical events, or writing a biased/subjective version of history.

Sincerely

SameerJB post #96

What do u know about Sindhi/mohajir relationship?

Dear Dost

Atcually I dont have a detailed knowledge of who actually were nagar-vadhus and how were they selected. The literal meaning of the word nagar-vadhu menas `` the bride of the city``. From whatever little knowledge I have, a nagar-vadhu was selected after by king on the basis of certain qualities like expertise in music and dancing, and may be beauty. It also appears that these nagar-vadhus were educated and especially Amrapali had some taste in literature. It was her love for Ajatshatru in conflict with her patriotic feelings for motherland ie Lichchavi republic that made her immortal in the annals of history. After the fall of Vaishali, she realised the transitory nature of the worldly existence and sought peace in Buddhism. She adopted Buddhism and became a Buddhist nun in the later stages of her llife. I remember a Hindi movie and several plays that attempted to portray the wonderful conflict of emotions of this ``Vaishali ki nagar-vadhu`` ie Amrapali.

Sincerely

dost-mittar, Dulla Bhatti, Pankaj and dionysus:

Knowing is better than not knowing. After that, it is very important how knowledge is utilized. Knowing past and present helps to plan a future course. I do feel guilty particularly interaction with Pankaj because all my stories, history and information at this thread is about Punjab. Taking pride in Punjab related issues inadvertantly seem prejudice against Ganges plains (I mistakenly used the term Ganges valley previously). There is great history of rivalry between Punjab and Ganges plains but it is mostly philosophical and relegated to teases and taunts. Rivalry is not animosity. Ganges plains accepted Punjabi Rig-Veda and Punjab wholeheartedly accepted Buddha of Ganges plains. The most well-known wars are actually minor incidents of last 200 years. British used Ganges plain soldiers in the Anglo-Sikh wars and it was Ganges plain soldiers came marching under British officers in 1841? to Lahore and Dilip Singh and his mother JindaN? surrendered. Punjabi soldiers returned the favor in 1857 mutiny when they generally remained loyal to British and helped them crush a mostly Ganges plains mutiny. Otherwise it has been mostly taunting.

Now then what it means knowing? Take the example of Pakistani politics. Right now there is a split between PML, one group loyal to Nawaz Sharif and the other is called like-minded group. The loyalists are Javed Hashmi, Syed Zafar Ali Shah and Nawaz Sharif and like-minded are Mian Azhar, Ijaz-ul-Haque, Abida Hussain and Fakhr Imam. Well, most people know it but if I extend this discussion to a particular direction, most folks will say, ``I never thought that way`` or ``Sameer, you are just knit-picking``.

The leaders of the loyalists are one Kashmiri and two Syeds. The leadership of the other group is two Syeds and two AraiN. No matter which side comes on top, it will not be Jats or Rajputs (the majority Punjabis). The other party PPP is also top heavy with Syeds and Shah was the most common last name in the defunct National Assembly. It may or may not mean anything. But knowing some statistics and data analysis, I can not consider it mere coincidence. So I need to look for reasons. Most Syed leadership are descendants of Sufis. Unlike popular belief based on mostly chishtiya and qadriya branches of Sufism and beautiful poetry (Bulley Shah, Shah Hussain, Khawaja Farid etc. who converted nobody), most Sufis were always eyes and ears of the ruling elites whether Delhi Sultanate, Mughal or British. They kept benefitting from it and with time acquired dominant position in the Muslim society. They have not stopped this habit of cozying up with the power elite and often have the backing from them or ISI and so on.

You tell me, if the understanding is better now about PML split or just knowing the names of the leadership was better. The knowledge of tribes and their history should be seen along the same lines. How much pride I can take talking about Jats when I am not a Jat. The whole point was of People`s struggle against tyranny and Jat history provided ample proof for it.

Dionysus: Thanks for couple of good posts. The discussion about caste-tribe is mostly for information since most chowkwallas are urbanites. I made it very clear previously that it is not a matter of pride in the tribes/ castes but people as a whole and with respect to history. This thread would have been dead after 20 replies, had I not kept interacting about anything people would like to talk about in connection with history. I know more about lohri and Pahari-Pothowari difference than before, thanks to interaction.

Re: Urdu

I think whether Musharraf/ Zubaida Jalal make it official or not, English is replacing Urdu among the middle class whereas upper class was always English-oriented. Famous People like Benazir Bhutto had very poor grasp of urdu. I remember one of her speeches during Ramazan saying, ``dekho azan baj raha hey aur merey jo namaz ko jana``. This was her Urdu. Urdu has previously accepted ``school and hospital`` as iskool and huspatal and now it will accept one-two-three instead of eik-do-teenI think people are not against Urdu, they do not want it to be imposed. Moreover, Pakistan Punjabi lacks script, unless you write in Arabic script. That is one of the reason for preferential use of Urdu writing instead of Punjabi. British Raj replaced Persian with Urdu in Punjab because of majority Muslim population and Urdu prospered in Punjab and even now most people like it but do not consider it superior to their mother tongue. A great deal of damage to Urdu was done by official backing otherwise it would have had the same level of understanding. Any attempt to replace Punjabi script to a non-Arabic will be strongly resisted by religious right and currently not practical. Unfortunately, it keeps most of Pakistani Punjabis from enjoying great deal of literature and books written in gurmukhi or devnagri script. Right now the hottest thing in Punjabi is Punjabi music which has exploded in the last 20 years. This is attracting youngsters in most Pakistni cities and away from Urdu music. The retirement and demise of Noor Jahan, Mehdi Hassan, Rafi, Mukesh, Kishore, Lata and Asha has really left a vacuum which is not proplerly filled by the current generation of singers whereas the modern Punjabi singers are much better than the old ones.

In politics also, it is no advantage in Punjab to strongly support a national language. Even MQM is more interested in Mohajir issues than supporting Urdu.

The Urdu as the language of Indian Muslims worked during Independence Movement but it is difficult to call it a Muslim language now when all the ``hindi`` movies, made in India are actually in Urdu. Now many non-Urdu speaking think of Urdu as Hindustani with Arabic script. Urdu will survive as a great language but not as the sole national language of Pakistan. It will have to share the title of national languages with other local languages.

Somehow it is in our psyche for a long time to appreciate everything that is not home grown without giving any reason for rejecting the home grown. Over time, the home grown stuff does not grow or improve because of the lack of support from the people. Not only the language, just think of tremendous efforts by many tribes/ castes and people in general to shed off their sub-continental identities.

Why don`t you write an article about it. I have already written in this post, all the material I had on this topic.

Dhagga is also a Punjabi word for Ox and used in Haryana, Delhi, and neighbouring areas as well. I am not surprised that it exists in Sindhi also.

Name calling by one caste/tribe to the other is not anything new or limited to Jatts only. Jatts have been called worse things than this and at the same time they have called worse things to others(to Bhapas, Brahimins, Bania etc). I don`t think that was the subject of this forum but unfortunately some people`s blood boils at the sound of the word Jatt and nothing can be done about it. Bhapay, Jatts, Rajputs,Brahmins, bania, Sheikhs, Syeds are there to stay. Any tribe being good in something in the history(in some cases very ancient history) does not mean it is true about it even this day and age.

There are Jatts who are Dhaggay even today and there are Jatts who are CEOs, Premiers and Chief Election Commisioners, Surgeons and scienctists. On the other hand there are Bhappay and Brahmins who are all of above plus jealous:-)

Sameer: I have the fortune to share a mutual friend with Jaspal and as a result have gotten chance to meet him in person on few occasions during his visits to States. He is even more humorous in real life than on stage or screen. ``Mahaul Theek hai`` was a good creation of his, only if he could afford to make some more films like it.

Dionysus earlier corrected my mistake about Tiwanas being Rajputs. Thanks a lot.

Masd # 95: My point about dhagga was used along with other stereotypical terms used for Jats/ and or Punjabis. I know too well that Punjabi dhagga term is much more recent than others. Another reason for this deragatory term is that it is a metaphor for people who do not control their own destiny or accept masters without critically analyzing the qualities. For example, support for Z. A. Bhutto and more recently for Nawaz Sharif. Would you please write something about Punjabi-Sindhi relationships in Sindh because most of what we know is about Sindhi-Mohajir relationship.

SameerJB post #92

``punjabi dhagga``,from where have u heard these words?as far as i know in rural sindh punjabis are ridiculed this way by calling the ``punjabi dhagas``,as rural sindhis show their hatred towards punjabi imperialism(right or wrong)

in pakistan.these words have nothing to do with the people of ganges.the word dhagga or dhaggo is a sindhi word for ox.

Sameer,

I think we should leave this crap about caste and tribe. Here`s a link to an article about the government`s decision to replace Urdu with English in Pakistan`s educational system. This a bold step by General Musharaf and Zubaida Jalal and I salute them. It will only make Pakistan stronger.

Tackling the medium issue:

http://jang.com.pk/thenews/jan2001-daily/18-01-2001/oped/o3.htm

I don`t think it`s long before Pakistan`s own languages get due status and Urdu is consigned to the rubbish bin of history. I think the government`s decision is a sign that perhaps we`re beginning to mature as a nation.

I would love to read an article by you about the Urdu imposition and the harm it has done to Pakistan. Any chance of that?

Sameer,

Interesting post. But you forgot to mention that in Punjab Jatts ARE the power elite and always have been. What percentage of Punjab`s landed aristocray is Jatt? At least 75%.

I`m afraid I`ve been too busy on other threads to follow this one, but just browsing through the old posts it`s clear that even educated Indians and Pakistanis still haven`t broken free from caste and tribe pride. And looking at the earlier posts its funny to see Khatris and Rajputs trying to claim famous Jatt clans as their own.

Yes, Jatt power and strength in Punjab is overwhelming. It will be a very sad day for Punjab if Jatts are one day forced to show that power.

hamzad afaqui: As I mentioned in reply to Pankaj, the Jat traditions in many way were in conflict with strong Brahmanical traditions of Ganges Valley. They started getting bad name from Brahmins and the winning side in the epic Mahabharata. Later on acceptance of Rajput to a higher caste by Ganges valley traditions also lowered the Jat status even though on many occasions, they fought the invaders well but generally not in association with rest of the tribes. This tradition of ridiculing Jats continued among the Muslims of Ganges valley and terms like ujad, ganwaar, jat, punjabi dhagga are the continuation of long historical disagreement of elite classed with these people.

No tribe or people in the history are absolutely blameless (except for Jews?). Jats being outside the mainstream caste based system and out of power corridoors, did develop certain habits which the elite groups (Ashrafiya) could not accept or tolerate. It was mostly rural lifestyle, love for land and distaste for urban etiquettes (sp?) that sterotyped them as......

They are no longer rural and powerless. They are the majority on both side of the border in Punjab, particularly among Sikhs. They are equally successful in education and business now.

Pankaj: There was some kind of consensus building mechanism among Jat tribes whereas Rajput was strictly based on heirarchy of elites. The term, Jat Sarv(all) Khap(Clan Brotherhood) Mahapanchayat(Great Assembly) suggest this Jat tradition clearly. It was their form of democracy, which compressed the caste system among them and intermarrying was possible among different castes. It did not go well with strong Brahmanical traditions of the Ganges valley. That is probably one of the main reason for most Jat clans supporting the Kaurava, the loser, in the battle of Kurkshetra (Mahabharata).

Why did Jats put up such a resistance to Timur?

The terrible carnage inflicted by Mahmud Ghaznavi on the Jat populace (women and children) after his defeat of the Jats in the Battle of the Indus River where he had equipped his boats with long spears under the waterline to puncture the attacking Jat boats. This must have left an indelible mark on the Jat memory and many of these Jat clans must have been those who had survived the Ghazni onslaught and migrated deeper into the sub-continent. The Ghaznavi raids deeper inside sub-continent were impossible due to Rajput strength and nearness to other Hindu fortified capital cities like Bhatnair along with nearness to the Imperial capital of Dehli which had emerged as the Center of power by 10th Century AD (by the way, the treatment meted out to the people of Bhatnair by Timur after their brave stand is one of the cruelest and gruesome in the history of sub-continent).

The Jat power continued declining since the time of Mahabharata and Rajputs became stronger and stronger. It was after Ghaznavi attacks that Jats started to reemerge because of their concentration in the important areas along the path of foreign invaders. The Rajput Power in North India had been completely eclipsed in the process due to two new entrants in the region-Delhi sultanate and the migrating Jat Clans from lower Sindh settling along the Northern plains and Rivers.

The reemergence of Rajput Power by 1526 AD under Rana Sanga of Mewar or Chittor was from Rajasthan. It again declined under Mughal rule and Jats reemerged as the most powerful in the late 17th and early 18th centuries under Ranjit Singh in Punjab.

Sameer

The thing I found most interesting in your description of Jat-Timur struggle was that the Jats had some kind of crude republican-democratic set up to make decisions for their clans. I was reminded of the Lichchavis who in 6th century AD, attempted to evolve a democratic set up similar to the ones Romans adopted later. Lichchavis resided in what is now Northern Bihar in sixth century BC. The Lichchavi ruled area was called a Mahajanpada or ``the great republic``. Its chief representative who was elected by its constituent units was called the `Ganaraja`. It had also a king but he was only a constitutional head. The king depended on the advice and the consent of the ganarajas in ruling the country. There was unanimity among the Lichchavis of Vaishali.They took decisions on all big questions after consultations. It was different from a Maha Panchayat of Jats in the sense that it was also a politically and mitarily well knit unit. The Lichchavi was rated among the best nobilities of India at that time.

Ajatshatru, the great king of Magadha made several attempts to defeat this coalition but he remained unsuccessful. Finally it is said that he did succeed in subduing Lichchavis by creating dissensions between its various ganarajas after a bloody 16 years of war. This marked an end of the first experiment of a ``democratic set up`` in ancient India. Lichchavis though temporaily subdued still remained influential in Northern India. Around 250 BC, a large number of them migrated to what is now Nepal and found a glorious empire over there. It should be noted that Mahavira Jain, the founder of Jainism was related to this tribe.

Sincerely

Sameer:

Are the jats you are writing about the same ones which have entered into the Panjabi lexicon as Juts,Juttas,Ujjads & Gunvaars?

I have met sikhs & hindus from Indian Punjab & Pakistanis who have nothing but scorn & vilification for this bunch.The `Papay` sikhs especially `enlightened` me a lot about them.

Most cultured people in India avoid them because of their profuse use of filthy language,vulgar behaviour,excessive drunkardness & hegemonious boisterousness.Almost invariably,one tries to deny them rental accomodation in urban/posh areas because of their loutishness.(Some early Indian movies had this as `jokes` too---watch `Parosan` for e.g)

Wasn`t Ranjeet Singh,a jat,a dacoit & marauder before becoming a Raja?Didn`t he kill his mothers` paramour when he caught them `in the act`?

A comment from the other side would perhaps be more credible & `authentic`.

Sameer #86

Man! You appear to be a walking Encyclopedia. Although I know this ``google`` thing is very effective but even then it demands considerable time and patience going through a number of articles and select the proper one. You are doing a terrific job of educating a lot of people including me. I never knew all these details about Jats and Rajputs although I am myself one:-). Keep posting interesting stuff.

Sincerely

Here is another example of people resistance against tyranny in India. I copied it from another site which I frequently visit. The interacts at this site display a great deal of Jat pride and therefore you will see that people referred in the following attachment are specifically Jats but Chowk readers can take it as an example of the people of sub-continent.

Another Page From History of People’s Struggle Against Tyranny

Do you know about Timur`s campaign in India and why he singled out Jats as one of the targets of his offensive? It had to do with the intense organized opposition that he faced from Jats closer to Delhi. As he entered sub-continent from the Bolan Pass he came via Multan bypassing North Punjab towards Delhi. Lahore at this time was such a poor city that he did not even bother to loot it. He was looking at the prize of Delhi.

But towards Delhi, across from Multan and North of Hissar, 50km north west of Hansi near Tohana in present day Haryana across from River Ghaggar, the Jats were waiting. A Sarv Khap Maha-panchayat of Jats was held, which decreed on all Jat Khaps to provide warriors -20,000 select troops thus waited in ambush for Timur`s army as it crossed Ghaggar. On one side was the dense Jungle and on other the River.

The 100,000 men of Timur’s army outnumbered the 20,000 Jats. But why did the Khap Mahapanchayat decide on this suicidal battle. The records are scanty but the Maha panchayat went on among clan elders and representatives for a whole day deliberating on a plan of action. Maybe it was to provide a cover for all the Jat villages lying between Hansi and Delhi to escape towards the deserts of Rajasthan or up north into the Jungle Desh of Malwa presently Patiala region. Many Jat migrations towards North Punjab took place at such cataclysmic times .

The battle was so bloody that Timur lost more man than ever before in his campaigns and the Jats too fought to the last. In fact according to historical sources Timur lost more men than the Jat army and it was a proper battle. Its here that Timur refers to Jats as devils incarnate. So angry was Timur that he razed the fort and town of Hissar to the ground and destroyed each and every Jat village that he found on his way to Delhi.

Fearing another Jat ambush Timur did not go back the Same way that is through Rohtuk and Hansi but crossed the Yammuna into Muzzfarnagar - the ancestral land of so many Punjab Jat Clans like Dhillons and else.

Here again a Jat Sarv Khap Maha Panchayat was held. I do not recollect the name of the Place mentioned by Historian Irfan Habib, may be it was Shamlee. But again the Jats organized an army of select troops of 20 000 strong. Timur had a running battle with them. He crossed Yammuna again in the North and then traveled along the foot hills to Lahore and then to Kyber Pass. Timur was no Nadir Shah, he was a world conqueror who had crushed the Ottoman Turks at Ankara and the Mongol Golden Horde in Russia. To challenge his might and bloody his nose in a face to face battle was surely a great deed of Jats.

The Delhi Sultnate had little control over this dense network of Jat Khaps from the fear of revolts. The Sultans did not try any conversions here. But also the weakness of the Jats was that they were not organized in a state but under Republican institutions like the Sarv Khap Panchayats, which responded only under times of great crisis. Hence the Jats were bereft of any long-term leadership. This also explains why Delhi Sultans seldom took on the Jats and why Jats seldom took on the Dehli Sultans as both sides were strong enough only to deter each other not threaten each other`s existence.

Organized leadership came first under Bharatpur Jats like Raja Ram Jat, Badan Singh or Suraj Mal-Jaswant Singh or Jawahar Singh (died 1776) and then in Punjab under Ranjit Singh who finished the anarchy of the Misls to forge a state. The state power made the fragmented republican Jat Power into concentrated organized power that took Jats from being simply peasant warriors to a ruling class. But Jats remained egalitarian or a believer in equality due to that Republican spirit and brotherhood of the past.

Dear A. Gnostic: Tusi kithey ho badshaho. MaiN kal he soch reha saN ke yar baqi sari sociology dey professor aithey naiN per apna banda ghaib ho gaya hey. kadi kadi deedar kara ditta karo, ya thuadey godey gittey dabaney paun gay. Na tusi na zeemax, ``aik saal maiN kya ho gaya zamaney ko``. Nawaz Sharif Al-Nawaz Sharif Ibn Abbaji ban gaya te Musharraf sahb wee A`la-Hazrat ban gaye naiN. Thanks to interactions with you and Zeemax, I am addicted to interaction here. Please say something from your il`m, tajarba te andooni gallaN.

Khush raho te wasdey ho par kadi kadi jhalak dikha ditta karo........Sameer

dost-mitter: There is only one Malika Pukhraj, the same who sung Hafeez Jullundhari`s Abhi to maiN jawan hooN and many many ghazalas. More about the khatri-Jat-Rajput material this evening....hopefully.

Post # 81 & Post #78 :

Cease Fire? Wise move!!!


Sameer:
A Correction: S.M.Zafar is Tahira Sayyed`s brother.in.law and not her uncle. Roshanae` Zafar is Tahira Sayyed`s niece and S.M.Zafar`s daughter -- a family of lawyers: S.M Zafar, Tahira Sayyed and Naeem Bokahri(her charming, intelligent,sweet & witty ex-hubby). Unlike the aunt and grandmother, Roshaneh`s vocal chords are terrible. Ukhh.!!! We used to have a regular shamae` ghazal in our college. It was a pleasure to listen to Tahira Sayyed live gungunao-fying:

Urstruly #78: You are right. Pothowari is much to the northwest of Pahari. I got confused here with Pahari geets sung by Malika Pukhraj and Tahira Syed. Tahira Syed is niece of a former law minister, S. M. Zafar who is from Kahuta or Sehala in district Rawalpindi. Anyway, huzoor ghalti ke liye ma`zrat khwah.

dost-mitter: Also listen to late Pathaey Khan singing Bulleh Shah`s or Khawaja Ghulam Farid`s poetry. You will definitely enjoy listening to a different dialect of Punjabi.

Dulla Bhatti: Thanks for your last post. Jaspal Bhatti is really funny. Have you seen movie ``Mahaul Theek Hey``?

Sameer: Da`a`wt-e-fik`r, as usual.

YLH #3, Zahra #6, Hamidm #8, Dionysis #10: It was emotional to come to the Chowk-- on way onwards; to see your names/posts, much more so.

Khush r`ho aur zinda r`ho!

[Zahra: There was a very good movie titled ``Puran Bhagat`` in the early to middle `40s. Somewhere, in one of the multiverses, a print of it must be available. History you already know. See it for its {social} contextual significance].

A Gnostic

Dullah Bhatti #77

I haven`t followed this discussion for the last few days, but a few comments....

``I wonder why Bhatti sikhs are not considered equal to jatts sikhs in the caste ladder unlike Minhas and Tiwanas.``

I don`t know what the reasons for that are in East Punjab, but in West Punjab Bhatti is a big, important and prestigious tribe. Bhattis are at the top of the Rajput hierarchy in West Punjab in the same way that tribes such as Tiwana and Sial are at the top of the Jatt hierarchy. In the past, Bhattis often shared control of the Sandal/Neeli Bar with the Sials and other Jatt tribes of the area and so to maintain harmony Bhatti sardars and Jatt sardars used to intermarry.

``Among the tribes believed to be Rajput only 3 of them are prominent among Sikhs: Minhas, Tiwana and Bhatti. Rest of the Sikhs are either Jatts or Khatris. Jatt Sikhs usually marry within jatts but Minhas and Tiwanas are considered Jatts for all

practical purposes including marriages. Lot of Sikhs don`t even know that Minhas and Tiwana Sikhs were once Rajputs.``

Tiwanas are Jatts both in origin and in modern-day identity. We bought some land in Sargodha which is Tiwana territory and I`ve lived among the Tiwanas of Shahpur - a really impressive group of men. Most Minhas in Central Punjab call themselves Jatt for political and social reasons but they do retain memories of their Rajput origins. Minhas in Pindi-Potohar don`t claim to be Jatt at all.

SameerJB # 76

Pahari is not a Potohari language. It is spoken in South East Kashmir; the areas on top of Gordaspur-which are far away from potohar. Potohar starts from the west bank of Jehlum.

Among the tribes believed to be Rajput only 3 of them are prominent among Sikhs: Minhas, Tiwana and Bhatti. Rest of the Sikhs are either Jatts or Khatris. Jatt Sikhs usually marry within jatts but Minhas and Tiwanas are considered Jatts for all practical purposes including marriages. Lot of Sikhs don`t even know that Minhas and Tiwana Sikhs were once Rajputs. Interestingly it is not the same about Bhattis. They are called Bhatti jatts in East Punjab and they don`t marry in jatts and vice versa except in rare cases. I wonder why Bhatti sikhs are not considered equal to jatts sikhs the caste ladder unlike Minhas and Tiwanas.

Former Speaker of Punjab assembly SS Minhas, prominent Punjabi story writer Dr. Dalip Kaur Tiwana and Jaspal Bhatti(commedian) are very prominent personalities in East Punjab.

dost-mitter #75: It does not take much these days to search a topic or personality on the web with so many search engines. It is my pleasure to be able to interact and entertain simultaneously as a host.

Solstice is certainly on 22nd December. I think lohri might have to with first full moon after winter solstice. Basant is similarly about arrival of spring or regeneration. Believe me, I am learning most from all the interaction from well-informed people like yourself. Growing up in cities like Rawalpindi-Islamabad, I missed all the folk festivities and remained ignorant of all aspects of Punjab-no Punjabi language, music, festivals, history except for few Punjabi movies.

Having lived in Pothowar-Gandhara, Pahari is not an alien language for me. You said it right, that most pahari songs are about men folks going to work in plains or in the military. Two of the well-known Pakistani singers (mother-daughter) have pahari roots in Rawalpindi district and you must listen to Mulika Pukhraj-Tahira Syed singing Pahari geets. One of their cassette titled Pahari geets is widely available and couple of years ago, I visited ``lok virsa`` in Islamabad. They had the best collection of folk music from around the country though their recording quality is not upto standard.

Regards,

Sameer

Dulla Bhatti and dost-mitter: It is really much less important if all the mythical and folkore characters are real. Just like religious figures, they achieve virtual reality, irrespective of exaggeration to otherwise a simple love story. In the case of Heer-Ranjha, there is enough literature to back up the love story. In time different authors add and subtract according to the needs of time and have their own literary contribution added to it. The Heer`s grave is well-known place outside Jhang Saddar and many people visit there. I do not know if that is also later addendum to the story or not.

There was a time during fifties when sials would not allow the showing of movie ``heer sial`` in theatres in Jhang. There was an accident of firing at the screen also but later on Pakistani movie ``heer ranjha`` was shown there without any incident. Similarly Ranjhas are real people still living across the river Chenab in district Sargodha, though not as powerful as sial.

There are lot less additions made in heer ranjha poetry than others, and it is pretty much fixed now. You can listen to Mirza Jat from Daler Mehndi or Surjit Bhindrakhia with their own versions of verses added. Same is the case with most other folklore such as ``jind mahi je chalyoN.....`` (this is one of my favorite)

Lohri is not as popular in Pakistan as India, though most villagers know about it and some celebrate. I have copied some material about it just now from couple of websites.

Lohri marks the culmination of winter, and is celebrated on the 13th day of January in the month of Paush or Magh, a day before Makar Sankranti. For Punjabis, this is more than just a festival, it is also an example of a way of life. Lohri celebrates fertility and the spark of life. People gather round the bonfires, throw sweets, puffed rice and popcorn into the flames, sing popular songs and exchange greetings.

An extremely auspicious day, Lohri marks the sun`s entry in to the `Makar Rashi` (Northern Hemisphere). The period, beginning from 14 January lasting till 14 July, is known as Uttarayan. It is also the last day of the month of Maargazhi, the ninth month of the lunar calendar. The Bhagawad Gita deems it an extremely sacred and auspicious time, when Lord Krishna manifests himself most tangibly. And so, across India, people celebrate the month and the prodigious harvest it brings - Pongal in Tamil Nadu, Bihu in Assam, Bhogi in Andhra Pradesh and the Sankranti in Karnataka, Bihar and Uttar Pradesh.

The focus of Lohri is on the bonfire. The traditional dinner with makki ki roti and sarson ka saag is quintessential. The prasad comprises of five main things: til, gazak, gur, moongphali, phuliya and popcorn. There is puja, involving parikrama around the fire and distribution of prasad. This symbolizes a prayer to Agni, the spark of life, for abundant crops and prosperity.

It is also the one day when the womenfolk and children get attention. The first Lohri of a bride is extremely important. The first Lohri of a newborn baby, whether a girl or a boy, is also equally important. Children go from door to door singing and asking for the Lohri prasad.

Ringing out the cold

By Peeyush Agnihotri

Sunder mundriye..., bonfires, peanuts and gachak. Lohri, which usually falls on January 13 (Pausa) every year, is more than just a festival. It is about fun, celebration and the coming together of all, big and small.

The day begins with children collecting money from houses in the neighborhood. In the evening, winter savouries are served around a bonfire. Celebrated enthusiastically in Haryana, Punjab and parts of Himachal Pradesh, it also signifies the beginning of the end of winter.

Children go from door to door singing songs in praise of Dulha Bhatti, a Punjabi version of Robin Hood who robbed the rich and helped the poor. These ``visitors`` are given either money or gachak, bhuga, til, moongphali, gur and rewri.

A bonfire is lit and everyone gathers around it. Munchies, collected from each house, go around the party and are also thrown into the fire.

Song

of

Lohri

Sunder mundriya …ho

Tera kaun vichara..ho

Dulla Bhatti walla…ho

Dulle ne ti viahiyi…ho

Saer Shakar payi…ho

Kudi de boje payee…ho

Shallu kaun samete…ho

Chacha galee dese…ho

Chache choori kutee…ho

Zamindaran lutee…ho

Zamindara sidaye…ho

Gin-gin pole layee…ho

Ik pola reh gaya…ho

Sipahi farh ke lei gaya…ho

Aakho mundao…taana…

Mukai da dana…

Aana lei ke jana…

The festival assumes greater significance if there has been a happy event in the family during the elapsed year, like the birth of a male child or marriage.

The family then plays host to relations and friends wherein the eats take a back seat and merry-making takes over. Move on folks! It is then time for bhangra, dhol, gidda and light-hearted flirtation. Liquor flows freely and guests are served dinner. But then liquor is a modern introduction and is not customary and celebrations depend on how much does the pocket allow.

A popular belief in this region is that if someone seeks a radish roasted in the bonfire lit by a family that has reason to celebrate, then blessings are bestowed on the family of the seeker as well.

Geographically speaking, the earth leans towards the sun along the Tropic of Capricorn (Makara rekha) from the day following Lohri, also known as Winter Solstice. The earth, farthest from the sun at this point of time, starts its journey towards the sun along its elliptical orbit, thus heralding in the onset of spring. It is this transition which is celebrated as Lohri in northern India, Makara sankranti in the central part of the country and as Pongal-Sankranti in South India.

The festival is spread over three days in South India and also signifies the beginning of harvesting. A rath yatra is taken out from the Kandaswamy temple in Chennai on Pongal.

The day is celebrated as Ganga-Sagara in West Bengal and according a belief, Hindus purify their sins by taking bath in the Ganges. A big fair is also held on the Sagara Island, 64 km from the Diamond harbour where the Ganga meets the Bay of Bengal.

Call it Lohri, Pongal or Sankranti, the festival conveys the same message -- the bond of brotherhood and the spirit of oneness should prevail despite all odds.

Amit: Khokhar is pretty big tribe. There are Sunnis, Shias, Qadyanis, Christians and possible Sikhs and Hindus also. I thought Riaz Khokhar did pretty good job for Pakistan after the nuclear tests by India and Pakistan. He was quite articulate in making Pakistani case. Here are couple of more tidbits how people at influential places deal privately with their cultural kins.

Nawaz Sharif and I. K. Gujral had many private and friendly telephone conversations and talked in Punjabi. Gujral had a history of association with leftist Urdu intellectuals from his days in Lahore and would often liked to bring up the topic of Faiz or Sibt-e-Hassan who were his friends. Nawaz knew and cared little about them but he knew lot more about the affairs, songs and gossips about Indian movie industry to which Gujral had little knowledge.

According to an eyewitness, Brig (retd) Baqir Siddiqui, both gen. Niazi and gen. Jagjit Singh Arora were trading dirty Punjabi jokes with each other and laughing like crazy in the officer`s mess, just after signing the surrender document. I am sure they must have also been sharing Sikh jokes.

I am not sure if Khizar Hayat Tiwana is considered a Jat or a Rajput by Punjabis. Here is another fella whose place in history is not yet fully decided. Right now it is all bad for him, more like Ghaffar Khan, G. M. Syed and Abdul Samad Achakzai (from NWFP, Sindh and Baluchistan). Some day history and people might treat them as neutral or even good. Khizar Tiwana and Unionists were mostly Jat and Rajput feudals from Punjab, although Chotu Ram was not a big landlord. They cared less for India or Pakistan and more for Britain and undivided Punjab.

He was no match with the political pundits of Congress and ML and Unionists faied miserably in the 1946 election on the basis of separate electorates on religion basis. Even after failing he was able to put together a coalition government but resigned unexpectedly at the wake of ML agitation in Punjab. Some believe that had he not resigned, the independence would have delayed and the outcome might have been different.

On top of that, being a feudal and feudalism getting all the bad wrap for all the ills in Pakistani society, his status is not going to improve anytime soon. The military, bureaucracy, mullahs, leftists and intellectuals have all washed their hands from sharing any blame by conveniently blaming it on feudalism and feudals. The problem with the feudal is that they know very well how to rule but do not know how to represent. This leads to a status quo in democracy and development. The politicians, on the other hand neither know how to rule or how to represent-only interested in loot and plunder as a mean for gratification. The military and mullahs demand total submission a necessity for rule and care little about representation. The leftists, labor leaders and populists are good at representing but do not know how to rule. In this kind of no win situation a frog trying to get out of the well is sure to fall in the gutter next to a well. This is how I see it.

Under such circumstances, I favor rule, rule of law and electoral democracy as the most appropriate starting point, hoping to see some feudal learning how to represent. We have seen enough of failures of national level party governments (PPP, PML, martial law) backed by powerful troika. That is why, a coalition of Jat-Rajput feudal in Punjab, a similar group in Sindh and tribal leaders from Baluchistan and NWFP with the addition of regionalists as a formidable and stabilizing force, to rule Pakistan. A coalition of such forces will not depend upon the dictates of ISI, MI, IB or bureaucracy who can make and break at will.

The ideal situation would be a democractic set-up with rulers knowing both ruling and representing. We should strive for that. However, until that happens, a group (feudal) who have perfected the art of ruling over centuries in the local conditions is better than a group who knows nothing and only interested in self-fulfilling.

Pankaj: thanks for another great post. We have previously discussed the effects of internal and external gratitude and the resulting status quo on progress scale in the history of sub-continenet. It is very important to have a balance between these two areas. Too much importance of internal (spiritual) gratitude makes external (material) gratitude less important-that is bad. I do not know about Hindus but among Muslims it is believed that current mortal life is temporary and one should work towards eternal life which will come after Qayamat. This has led to keep people humble despite poor conditions.

In Europe, the importance of hard work towards achieving a better life was realized by protestant revolution-the Lutherans, Calvinists, non-Conformists, Quakers, Methodists, Presbyterians. They saw a good external life better for good internal life. I think we should adopt similar philosophy toward life. If you do not try to change conditions in this life, you are not gonna get any better in afterlife(?) also.

Religion and spirituality to me is something you deeply love for a variety of reasons but it is also a kind of love that does not require keep investing in it. A person can be in love with antiques, kept safely in mind and in safe place at home. But then you go on living your normal life dictated by reason and logic. Hey, I deeply love my stamps collection from early childhood and all the collection is kept safely at my family home in Islamabad. I will probably never like to discard it, yet it is not determining rest of my life in any way.

Basically internal must be comletely detached from external. The external is what matters in the collective health of a nation. Hopefully, we will get more chances to interact about why sub-continent left behind and sitting on a ticking time bomb-the disproportionate large number of children and youth who will be entering the market in droves in the coming years. How are we going to cope with it?

Re:dost-mittar#67

The irony about the Prithvi-Ghauri deal is that the actual descendent of Prithvi Raj Chauhan is a muslim chauhan living in Pakistan. I remember reading a letter from this guy in some of the Pakistani newspapers protesting that India was unfair in selecting his ancestor`s name !! Since he was a pucca Pakistani and proud to be a descendent of Prithvi Raj Chauhan, India had no right to use that name for their missile !!

Speaking of Khatris, I have heard of Pakistanis with Khatri titles like Sehgal (Saigol) and Bhandari. In fact, I first encountered a Pakistani Sehgal when I read an article by Ikram Sehgal, a leading Pakistani industrialist and journalist. At first, I thought I had read Vikram Sehgal, before realizing that it was Ikram not Vikram.

Are there any differences between Rajputs and Khatris ? Take Tiwanas for example. The Tiwanas are descendents of Kshatriyas of Madhya Pradesh who migrated north to Punjab around a 1000 years back. In Punjab they are known as Rajputs. In fact, in the biography of Khizr Hayat Tiwana, it is mentioned that an ancestor of his named Mohan Tiwana converted to Islam in the eleventh century. Also the Tiwanas maintained close relationships after conversion between the hindu, muslim and sikh branches. Khizr Hayat Tiwana used to be in close correspondence with his sikh relative Sadhu Singh Tiwana who lives in Ludhiana.

Dost-mittar: What can I say? your memory is much much better than mine. Not to mention that from our interaction I got the impression that I am much younger than you probably atleast couple of decades. Shame on my memory:-).

Although I spent all of my bachpan and most of my early youth in rural area, we moved out of the village into our farm when I was only 4-5 years old and as a result have missed lot of the fun stuff that my friends enjoyed in the village including many year of LohRi songs. I only remember 2 or 3 years when I actually went with them singing Dulla`s song and other songs.

Thanks for sharng your LohRi memories.

I have some more related songs( from Punjabi Lok Geet: Mohinder Singh Randhawa and Davinder Satyarathi) but won`t digress from the topic at hand.

I am so keenly interested in what Sameer and others have to say. I am getting more and more interested in social history of Punjab. Thanks to you all.

SameerJB:

Profound research and time well-spent.

The sight of a frog happily croaking and hop-step-and-jumping its way back to the well is indeed a sign of progress.

But muslims love arabic,persian and Urdu.You poor soul must already be burning in--well,with jealousy.No one can help you out of your misery!

Sameer, Amit, Dulla Bhatti & dost-mittar

Thanks for your posts!!

Sameer

Please note: The word ``environment`` below means all that is ``external`` to ahumanbeing and not merely nature. Thus environment is a broad term encompassing the socio-economic order, the establishment, etc.

You say,``The cultural and social reasons for being subjugated for the longest period of time in the history of nations are same what kept up poor, backward and fragmented ``

First of all, Europe was under the spell of ``dark ages`` only between 6th to 14th century. Europe, indeed was at the forefront till the Greek/Roman empire lasted. If you study the Greek philosophy, you will find that it emphasizes on the external environment, and reason. The Indian philosophy emphasizes more on the personal satisfaction by meditation instead of altering environment to bring satisfaction by gratification of needs. The Hindu/Buddhist stream advocates elimination of the desires itself to seek nirvana. Now though this kind of outlook may be good for mental well being, it certainly does not encourage enterpreneurial activities, or anti-establishment drives. Also the deep-seated belief that ``what has to happen, happens`` and human beings can do little about it prevents a person to actively seek alteration of ``environment`` for betterment of his life. On the other hand, western philosophy lays greater emphasis on understanding external world for gratification of desires to obtain satisfaction and definitely not the elimination of desire itself.

In my opinion, the most important cause of ``dark ages`` in Europe was the influence of church and feudalism. Now since rise of feudalism was a common phenomena in different cultures, I will concentrate on influence of church. To put things in perspective, let us take an example. Though Aristotle believed that earth was the center of the universe( he takes it as an assumption or rather axiom) he was open to reason and had a Copernicus reasoned with him otherwise,he might have accepted it. But it lost its status as a provable/disprovable scientific hypothesis and became a ``dogma``, a necessary tenet of the religion and hence must not be questioned by followers. The church brutally crushed any independent secular thinking and chained ideas. The Renaissance was initiated by a rise of rebellious forces/ideas thta refused to accept these tenets of religion and revived the spirit of questioning the statements.

Note: One of the assumption of the para 1 was that the philosophy is a valid measure of the general attitude of the society. Now since I have seen the above mentioned attitudes in the Indian society, I think this assumption might be reasonable.

Sincerely

Kharral Sahib # 63: Thanks for clarification. I do not recall interacting with you before and I am glad that you posted a reply here. Welcome.

What I liked about your reply was that you are the only other Pakistani who has chosen to call Lyallpur instead of Faisalabad.

The discussion about the tribes of Pakistan was not my intention but it is still lot better than discussing Hindu-Muslim, Islam-Hinduism or India-Pakistan. I hope that discussion will stay away from those topics besides there are always three other threads premanently assigned to those topics.

Lets not forget Rai Ahmad Khan Kharral as another great native hero. Hanif Ramey mentioned his name as one of the five famous Punjabis in one of his books. During 1857 Mutiny when most of the Punjabi tribes stayed on the sideline, Rai Sahib decided to support mutineers (or freedom fighters). He trapped a British company under the command of colonel Berkeley in the marshes of river Ravi and finshed them. Later on British fired a canon at the mosque he was offering his prayers and this old man of about 80 years was killed along with many of his supporters.

Personally, I would like to see nothing more than a Jat-Rajput alliance for the better future of Punjab and Pakistan. On one hand it will represent the majority of the people, unlikely to succumb to the pressure of power troika in Pakistan and on the other hand it is a good insurance for stopping Islamic fundamentalists and also good for native culture. Why keep playing second fiddle to the likes of Nawaz Sharif and Bhutto.

I grew up in cities and really do not have any affiliation with Rajputs though one side of my family considers themselves Bhatti and other Chauhan. My name does not include either. Additionally a you move southward in Punjab, the rivalries are not as deep rooted. I have even read somewhere that in the past some Rajputs started calling themselves Jats after conversion and living in an area that was mostly Muslim. The word Rajput was somehow associated with Hinduism. On the other hand, both before and after conversions, many Jat started considering themselves Rajputs because Rajput represented higher soc