Sameer January 6, 2001
#60 Posted by SameerJB on January 13, 2001 2:11:11 pm
dost-mitter and Dulla Bhatti: Thanks for sharing another piece of our culture that is no longer in vogue in Pakistan. I know of no other folk singer than Alam Lohar signing Dulla Bhatti. All the folk songs have a characteristic tune and one can identify them without even remembering the words. The Heer, Mirza SahibaN, Dulla Bhatti or Jagga (I believe his name was Jagat Singh) are sung in different ragas though most people and even singers do not know the classical music. Heer is sung almost always in rag BhairoN.
Both Heer and Dulla Bhatti stories are contemporary and took place during Akbar`s rule. Other events would include Anarkali story and Madhu Shah Hussain`s career. Mirza ShibaN took place some years later because SahibaN was also a Sial from Heer`s family-I guess it was in their genes? Mirza was a Kharal who are still found on the both sides of lower Ravi river, in what is called Sandal Bar (Lyallpur, Sahiwal). Further south they are known as Khar. Some ardent Rajputs do not like calling Mirza a Jat. A Pakistani-Punjabi writer Shafqat Tanveer Mirza always writes him as Mirza Rajput. The Jat-Rajput rivalry in Punjab is very interesting read. It is played out even to this day in elections. The opponent of Jat Ch. Shuja`at Hussain in Gujrat would almost always be a Gujjar usullay backed by PPP. Many other contest, though apparently, a PPP-PML contest are actually Jat-Rajput contests. The situation in Lahore is very different with practically no Jat-Rajput strong areas. In Lahore, the dominant groups are AraiN, Kashmiri and Mughals, that is why many Jats-Rajputs dislike Lahore domination of Punjabi politics.
Jagga was much later during British period. He was killed in a police encounter. It is best to listen to Jagga in Pakistani Singer Shaukat Ali`s voice.
Happy Lohri to you-January 13th
Both Heer and Dulla Bhatti stories are contemporary and took place during Akbar`s rule. Other events would include Anarkali story and Madhu Shah Hussain`s career. Mirza ShibaN took place some years later because SahibaN was also a Sial from Heer`s family-I guess it was in their genes? Mirza was a Kharal who are still found on the both sides of lower Ravi river, in what is called Sandal Bar (Lyallpur, Sahiwal). Further south they are known as Khar. Some ardent Rajputs do not like calling Mirza a Jat. A Pakistani-Punjabi writer Shafqat Tanveer Mirza always writes him as Mirza Rajput. The Jat-Rajput rivalry in Punjab is very interesting read. It is played out even to this day in elections. The opponent of Jat Ch. Shuja`at Hussain in Gujrat would almost always be a Gujjar usullay backed by PPP. Many other contest, though apparently, a PPP-PML contest are actually Jat-Rajput contests. The situation in Lahore is very different with practically no Jat-Rajput strong areas. In Lahore, the dominant groups are AraiN, Kashmiri and Mughals, that is why many Jats-Rajputs dislike Lahore domination of Punjabi politics.
Jagga was much later during British period. He was killed in a police encounter. It is best to listen to Jagga in Pakistani Singer Shaukat Ali`s voice.
Happy Lohri to you-January 13th
#59 Posted by SameerJB on January 13, 2001 2:11:11 pm
Yme and prem: The term foreigners in this article is used for rulers and not people or culture. Various aspects of Turkish, Arabic and Afghan culture have become part of our social and cultural fabrics, not only in Pakistan but also in India. Nobody treats Basmati rice as an Afghan variant or shalwar-kameez as Afghani dress. The foreigner scientists and scholars are respected world-wide and their contributions have made the difference in the lives of most. We, the diaspora, work with and for foreigners without disliking them for their roots. Even among the foreign rulers of India, during Islamic Empires period, Sher Shah Suri is well respected fro his contributions in a brief 4 1/2 year period. In my books, he ranks very high, much above Ghaznavi, Ghauri or Aurangzeb. I would have preferred to see naming missiles after him than Ghauri although I know the reason-the Pirithvi factor.
People of sub-continent should not like Timur, Nadir Shah or Ahmad Shah Abdali but these three characters must not lead one to dislike Turkish, Iranian or Afghan people or cultures respectively. Similarly, I dislike Zia-ul-Haq, a Punjabi-and others dislike the Punjabi dominated bureaucracy in Pakistan-but this should not be areason fro anybody to criticize Punjabi people or culture.
Moreover, as you pointed out, the current geographical boundaries are of recent history. The Afghans in particular have been part of sub-continent history much befor Islamic invasions. The Bactrians, Parthians, the common native/Aryan/Scythian/hun roots, the Bamyan Buddha, the Ashoka edicts in Qandhar and Gandhari of Mahabharata are some of the well-known examples of partially common heritage.
One last very important point. There is absolutely no reason to label any person in Pakistan or India as foreigners as long as they act or behave just like any other person even if they are the direct descendants of some historical figure who is not liked. The descendants of Arabs, Turks, Iranians or Afghans are as desi as the rest of people. Even India has no problem with Arab born Maulana Azad or Tabussum Hashmi. Both of them are greatly liked. For those who are wondering who the hell Tabussum Hashmi is: she is commonly known as Tabbu. Look at the best article on the front page. It is by Hassan Gardezi. His name suggest of Persian ancestry but he is what he is. He is good, does good and means good. Similarly Yasser Hamdani.........has tremendous energy and potential to improve.
People of sub-continent should not like Timur, Nadir Shah or Ahmad Shah Abdali but these three characters must not lead one to dislike Turkish, Iranian or Afghan people or cultures respectively. Similarly, I dislike Zia-ul-Haq, a Punjabi-and others dislike the Punjabi dominated bureaucracy in Pakistan-but this should not be areason fro anybody to criticize Punjabi people or culture.
Moreover, as you pointed out, the current geographical boundaries are of recent history. The Afghans in particular have been part of sub-continent history much befor Islamic invasions. The Bactrians, Parthians, the common native/Aryan/Scythian/hun roots, the Bamyan Buddha, the Ashoka edicts in Qandhar and Gandhari of Mahabharata are some of the well-known examples of partially common heritage.
One last very important point. There is absolutely no reason to label any person in Pakistan or India as foreigners as long as they act or behave just like any other person even if they are the direct descendants of some historical figure who is not liked. The descendants of Arabs, Turks, Iranians or Afghans are as desi as the rest of people. Even India has no problem with Arab born Maulana Azad or Tabussum Hashmi. Both of them are greatly liked. For those who are wondering who the hell Tabussum Hashmi is: she is commonly known as Tabbu. Look at the best article on the front page. It is by Hassan Gardezi. His name suggest of Persian ancestry but he is what he is. He is good, does good and means good. Similarly Yasser Hamdani.........has tremendous energy and potential to improve.
#58 Posted by SameerJB on January 13, 2001 2:11:11 pm
Urstruly #47: I have already downgraded Jasrat from buy to hold because I did not have any further information on this chracter. However, we know quite a bit about Khushal Khan Khattack and Dulla Bhatti. They are not paper tigers. Moreover, you have to judge the past rebels of native origin in those circumstances. They are, in my opinion, very helpful in creating a deep rooted Pakistani identity that is not based on borrowing alone.
A sudden shift in identity is not possible and that is why such articles with severely different point of view than popularly held, are difficult to digest. But things have been changing in this direction slowly, which you might not have noticed. There would have been more visible signs of change, had it not been for Iranian revolution, Russian invasion of Afghanistan, Rise of fundamentalism against the unfair foreign policies of the West and the Zia-Ul-Haque era.
The history textbooks in Pakistan have greatly reduced the ``Islamic Empires`` history, substituted with the history of independence movement and Pakistani history. I wonder if you have noticed the changes in the 1, 2, 5, 10, 100, 200, 500 and 1000 rupee bills in Pakistan over the last 20-30 years. The back face had pictures of Thatha mosque from Tughlaq time, Shalimar Garden, Lahore fort, Badshahi mosque and so on. Our current currency bills depict whole diffenet set of monuments. Except for Badshahi mosque at 1000 rupee bill, all others have changed. Now we have Mohenjo-Daro, Mazar-e-Quaid-e-Azam, Mazar-e-Allama Iqbal, National Assembly building, Khyber pass railway with several tunnels. It is very possible that Badshahi mosque will someday be replaced by K-2 or some other Pakistani monument. All coins used to have written ``Hakoomat-e-Pakistan`` in some Arabic calligraphy on the back. Not anymore. The Azizabad, Saudabad, Faisalabad, Shalimar garden have to compete now against Bhatti Shaheed and Minhas Shaeed names. I wish Edhi a long life but once he leaves, he will be remebered like nobody before except for Jinnah or Iqbal. Similarly Noor Jahan and Nusrat Fateh Ali Khan also deserve recognition now that they are no longer with us.
A sudden shift in identity is not possible and that is why such articles with severely different point of view than popularly held, are difficult to digest. But things have been changing in this direction slowly, which you might not have noticed. There would have been more visible signs of change, had it not been for Iranian revolution, Russian invasion of Afghanistan, Rise of fundamentalism against the unfair foreign policies of the West and the Zia-Ul-Haque era.
The history textbooks in Pakistan have greatly reduced the ``Islamic Empires`` history, substituted with the history of independence movement and Pakistani history. I wonder if you have noticed the changes in the 1, 2, 5, 10, 100, 200, 500 and 1000 rupee bills in Pakistan over the last 20-30 years. The back face had pictures of Thatha mosque from Tughlaq time, Shalimar Garden, Lahore fort, Badshahi mosque and so on. Our current currency bills depict whole diffenet set of monuments. Except for Badshahi mosque at 1000 rupee bill, all others have changed. Now we have Mohenjo-Daro, Mazar-e-Quaid-e-Azam, Mazar-e-Allama Iqbal, National Assembly building, Khyber pass railway with several tunnels. It is very possible that Badshahi mosque will someday be replaced by K-2 or some other Pakistani monument. All coins used to have written ``Hakoomat-e-Pakistan`` in some Arabic calligraphy on the back. Not anymore. The Azizabad, Saudabad, Faisalabad, Shalimar garden have to compete now against Bhatti Shaheed and Minhas Shaeed names. I wish Edhi a long life but once he leaves, he will be remebered like nobody before except for Jinnah or Iqbal. Similarly Noor Jahan and Nusrat Fateh Ali Khan also deserve recognition now that they are no longer with us.
#57 Posted by SameerJB on January 13, 2001 2:11:11 pm
Rajanjua: I wish I knew the details about Gakhars. Some of the material, I have read give confusing picture. In one of the papers, I read that Gakhars and Kakars (as former pakistani COAS, Wahid Kakar) on the west side of Indus river have same origins. People used to move around in a pattern that can not be forcasted. It is also believed by some researchers that actually Ghaur and Saur (as in Ghauri and Suri) are also same people moved further west to present day Afghanistan where Ghauris adopted Turkish culture and Suri, the Afghan. I do not know if these revisions are objective or motivated by a desire to make Ghauri and Suri as one of us. Two books I would recommend are: 1) History and Study of Jats by B. S. Dhillon and 2) ???? by Hukam Singh Pawar. Here is something to begin with. I do not have access to some good book, which discusses this issue without bias. I heard that a book by Hukam Singh Pawar. I am pasting an article from:
The following article is from www.geocities.com/pak_history/
I hope you will enjoy reading it, if you have not already read it.
LEADING TRIBES OF PUNJAB AND THEIR ORIGINS
Before the advent of Islam, but after the Aryan migrations, several invasions and mass migrations of the Central Asian tribes named as the Sakas, Parthians, Kushans, Huns and Gujjars took place in the Punjab (and other parts of Pakistan). The last two tribes i.e. the Huns (White Huns/ Epthalites) and Gujjars arrived in the 5th century AD when Hinduism had revived under the Gupta Empire but had not fully succeeded in crushing the influence of Buddhism. As the Gupta Empire collapsed under the impact of Hun invasions, it caused deep consternation among Brahmins in view of their failure to eliminate Buddhism while the Gupta power supporting them in this task had disappeared. Therefore, they began to make overtures to the new arrivals who were valiant, vigorous and warlike. They were offered the rank of Kshatryas in the Hindu fold, a position only next to that of the Brahmins and confers the responsiblity of rulership.
In the course of time the leading groups of Huns were absorbed in the Hindu fold as Kshatryas while Jats, who were the descendants of the remaining groups of Huns, occupied a lower strata of society. But the present day Jats and Rajputs also include the descendants of the previous invaders..... the Sakas and the Kushans and even of earlier races.
Todd assigns Scythian origin to the Rajputs. Scythians came to be known as Sakas in South Asia, and were absorbed in the Hindu fold as Kshatriyas. Sakas, Yavannas (Greco-Bactrians), Pallavas (Parthians) ultimately became Kshatriyas. The Huns are known to have been regarded as one of the 36 clans of Rajputs. However, except for the Huns, all others had mostly adopted Buddhism mixed with their religions (like Saka sun-worship).
Almost 60% of the population of the Punjab comprises of Rajputs and Jats and the various branches of their race such as Awans, Khokhars, Ghakkars, Khattars, Janjuas, Arains, Gujjars, etc. though the Awans, Khokhars and Khattars claim common ancestry from Qutb Shah who is said to have come from Ghazni with Mahmud Ghaznavi, scholars hold the view that they were most probably converted by Qutb Shah during Mahmud Ghaznavi`s reign and were not his descendents. This tendancy of claiming foreign origin by some of the local tribes is not uncommon. Even admittedly Rajput tribes of famous ancestry such as the Khokhar, have begun to follow the example of claiming connection with the Mughal conquerors of India or the Qureshi cousins of the Prophet.
A branch of the Wattu Rajputs of the Sutlej by an affection of peculiar sanctity, have in the course of a few generations become Bodeas and now deny their Rajput and claim Qureshi origin. There is a Kharral family lately settled in Bahawalpur who have begun to affect peculiar holiness and to marry only with each other and their next step will certainly be to claim Arab descent.
However, a significant number of Punjabi tribes are indeed descended from Afghan, Turkic, Arab, Mughal and Iranian Muslim invaders/migrants. Even those who are of local origins but claim foreign Muslim ancestory, might have partial ancestory derived from them. But all in all, the foreign Muslim ancestory element among Punjabis does not exceed more than 20% of their population.
According to Thomson, Awans are a Jat race and were converted to Islam by Mahmud Ghaznavi. In several districts of the Punjab they are registered as Jats. Mr. Thomson in his Jehlum Settlement report adduces many strong reasons in support of his conclusion that the Awans are a Jat race who came from passes west of D.I.Khan. Griffin also agrees to the local Muslim origin of Awans while Cunningham holds that Janjuas and Awans are descended from Anu and calls them Anwan. Another scholar Wilson is of the view that Awans are of indigenous Hindu/Buddhist/Pagan/Animist origin. In the genealogical tree of the Nawabs of Kalabagh, who are regarded heads of the Awans, there are found several native names such as Rai, Harkaran, etc.
As regards Gujjars, the well known scholar Cunningham thinks that they are descended from Scythian (Saka) and Yue-Chi (Kushan) tribes who invaded Pakistan in the first century BC and in the first century AD respectively. Other scholars believe that they are descended from a Central Asian Turkic people called Kazars. Since the tribe migrated from Caspian Sea which is called Bahr-e-Khizar it was named Khizar, Guzar, Gurjar, Gurjara or Gujjar. The name Hazara was given to the district by these Guzara tribes. The name Gujjar, according to another version, is derived from the words `Gau` and `Char` meaning cattle grazers.
Though Arains claim Iranian descent, they too are generally considered of Rajput origin, but Rajputs having Scythian-Kushan-Hun origins are indeed related to Iranians. According to the Punjab Gazetteer, the Arains of sahiwal District themselves pointed out that they are Surajbansi Rajputs originally settled around Delhi. Arains of Ghaggar Valley say that they were Rajputs living on the Panjnad near Multan. Mr. Pursr writes that they are usually supposed to be Muslim Kambohs. the Jullander Arains themselves say that they are descended from Rai Chajju of Ujjain. Kambohs claim descent from Raja Keran who was related to him.
Similarly, Ranghars and Meos are described to be of Rajput/Jat origin who were converted to Islam during the time of Qutbuddin Aibak. Kahutas are a mixed Mughal and Rajput tribe. Khattars are related to Awans and Jats.
Khokhars are sometimes returned as Jats and sometimes as Rajputs. Col. Davis notes that many of the social customs of the Khokhars of Shahpur denote Hindu origin. Eastern Punjab Khokhars themselves claim Jat-Rajput origin. Only some of the West Punjab Khokhars claim Arab origin.
Gen. Cunningham identifies the Ghakkars with Gangaridae of Dionysius and holds them to be descendents of Yueti or Tokhari Scythians (sakas).
In Pakistan, Rajput and Jat tribes are so mixed up that it is difficult to distinguish one from the other at many places and in several cases. Some of the Rajput tribes are probably of Jat origin and vice versa. In southwest Punjab the name Jat includes a most miscellaneous congries of tribes of all sorts. Its significance tends to be occupational: to denote a body of cultivators or agriculturists. Even tribes which bear well-known Rajput names are often classified as Jats in the Punjab. Anyway, the origin of both is the same as stated earlier.
Gen. Cunningham and Maj. Todd agree in considering the Jats of Indo-Scythian stock. Maj. Todd classifies Jats as one of the great Rajput tribes. They belong to one and thesame stock.... they have been, for many centuries, so blended and so intermingled into one people that it is practically impossible to distinguish them as separate wholes. At present distinction is social rather ethnic. The same tribe Rajput in one district and Jat in another according to the position in local tribes... During census many of the Jats entered, as third heading, the name of the Rajput tribe from which they claim to have sprung.
The Jats in ancient times inhabited the whole valley of the Indus down to Sind.... They now form a most numerous as well as the most important section of the agricultural population of Punjab.
Beyond the Punjab, Jats are chiefly found in Sind where they form mass of the population.
The main (Muslim) Rajput tribes of the Punjab are: Bhatti, Punwar, Chauhan, Minhas, Tiwana, Noon, Chib, Gheba, Jodhra, Janjua, Sial and Wattu etc. While the important (Muslim) Jat tribes are: Bajwa, Chatta, Cheema, Randhawa, Ghammon, Buta, Kahlon, Gil, Sehota, Taror, Waraich, Summa, Wahla, Bhutta, Malhi, Sukhera, Alpials, Dahas, Langah, Ranghar, Meo, Awan, Khokhar, Ghakkar, etc. But some of these Rajput tribes are classified are Jats and vice versa.
Punjab has had its periods of prosperity and poverty in a regular cycle. Before the arrival of Muslims, Punjab along with the other regions/provinces of present day Pakistan was leading a separate existance from that of India, and kingdoms based in its territories or in the NWFP often ruled over most of northern India. Kushan, Saka, Bactrian and Hun Kingdoms with their capitals at Peshawar, Taxila and Sialkot respectively, ruled over large parts of northern India for centuries.
The following article is from www.geocities.com/pak_history/
I hope you will enjoy reading it, if you have not already read it.
LEADING TRIBES OF PUNJAB AND THEIR ORIGINS
Before the advent of Islam, but after the Aryan migrations, several invasions and mass migrations of the Central Asian tribes named as the Sakas, Parthians, Kushans, Huns and Gujjars took place in the Punjab (and other parts of Pakistan). The last two tribes i.e. the Huns (White Huns/ Epthalites) and Gujjars arrived in the 5th century AD when Hinduism had revived under the Gupta Empire but had not fully succeeded in crushing the influence of Buddhism. As the Gupta Empire collapsed under the impact of Hun invasions, it caused deep consternation among Brahmins in view of their failure to eliminate Buddhism while the Gupta power supporting them in this task had disappeared. Therefore, they began to make overtures to the new arrivals who were valiant, vigorous and warlike. They were offered the rank of Kshatryas in the Hindu fold, a position only next to that of the Brahmins and confers the responsiblity of rulership.
In the course of time the leading groups of Huns were absorbed in the Hindu fold as Kshatryas while Jats, who were the descendants of the remaining groups of Huns, occupied a lower strata of society. But the present day Jats and Rajputs also include the descendants of the previous invaders..... the Sakas and the Kushans and even of earlier races.
Todd assigns Scythian origin to the Rajputs. Scythians came to be known as Sakas in South Asia, and were absorbed in the Hindu fold as Kshatriyas. Sakas, Yavannas (Greco-Bactrians), Pallavas (Parthians) ultimately became Kshatriyas. The Huns are known to have been regarded as one of the 36 clans of Rajputs. However, except for the Huns, all others had mostly adopted Buddhism mixed with their religions (like Saka sun-worship).
Almost 60% of the population of the Punjab comprises of Rajputs and Jats and the various branches of their race such as Awans, Khokhars, Ghakkars, Khattars, Janjuas, Arains, Gujjars, etc. though the Awans, Khokhars and Khattars claim common ancestry from Qutb Shah who is said to have come from Ghazni with Mahmud Ghaznavi, scholars hold the view that they were most probably converted by Qutb Shah during Mahmud Ghaznavi`s reign and were not his descendents. This tendancy of claiming foreign origin by some of the local tribes is not uncommon. Even admittedly Rajput tribes of famous ancestry such as the Khokhar, have begun to follow the example of claiming connection with the Mughal conquerors of India or the Qureshi cousins of the Prophet.
A branch of the Wattu Rajputs of the Sutlej by an affection of peculiar sanctity, have in the course of a few generations become Bodeas and now deny their Rajput and claim Qureshi origin. There is a Kharral family lately settled in Bahawalpur who have begun to affect peculiar holiness and to marry only with each other and their next step will certainly be to claim Arab descent.
However, a significant number of Punjabi tribes are indeed descended from Afghan, Turkic, Arab, Mughal and Iranian Muslim invaders/migrants. Even those who are of local origins but claim foreign Muslim ancestory, might have partial ancestory derived from them. But all in all, the foreign Muslim ancestory element among Punjabis does not exceed more than 20% of their population.
According to Thomson, Awans are a Jat race and were converted to Islam by Mahmud Ghaznavi. In several districts of the Punjab they are registered as Jats. Mr. Thomson in his Jehlum Settlement report adduces many strong reasons in support of his conclusion that the Awans are a Jat race who came from passes west of D.I.Khan. Griffin also agrees to the local Muslim origin of Awans while Cunningham holds that Janjuas and Awans are descended from Anu and calls them Anwan. Another scholar Wilson is of the view that Awans are of indigenous Hindu/Buddhist/Pagan/Animist origin. In the genealogical tree of the Nawabs of Kalabagh, who are regarded heads of the Awans, there are found several native names such as Rai, Harkaran, etc.
As regards Gujjars, the well known scholar Cunningham thinks that they are descended from Scythian (Saka) and Yue-Chi (Kushan) tribes who invaded Pakistan in the first century BC and in the first century AD respectively. Other scholars believe that they are descended from a Central Asian Turkic people called Kazars. Since the tribe migrated from Caspian Sea which is called Bahr-e-Khizar it was named Khizar, Guzar, Gurjar, Gurjara or Gujjar. The name Hazara was given to the district by these Guzara tribes. The name Gujjar, according to another version, is derived from the words `Gau` and `Char` meaning cattle grazers.
Though Arains claim Iranian descent, they too are generally considered of Rajput origin, but Rajputs having Scythian-Kushan-Hun origins are indeed related to Iranians. According to the Punjab Gazetteer, the Arains of sahiwal District themselves pointed out that they are Surajbansi Rajputs originally settled around Delhi. Arains of Ghaggar Valley say that they were Rajputs living on the Panjnad near Multan. Mr. Pursr writes that they are usually supposed to be Muslim Kambohs. the Jullander Arains themselves say that they are descended from Rai Chajju of Ujjain. Kambohs claim descent from Raja Keran who was related to him.
Similarly, Ranghars and Meos are described to be of Rajput/Jat origin who were converted to Islam during the time of Qutbuddin Aibak. Kahutas are a mixed Mughal and Rajput tribe. Khattars are related to Awans and Jats.
Khokhars are sometimes returned as Jats and sometimes as Rajputs. Col. Davis notes that many of the social customs of the Khokhars of Shahpur denote Hindu origin. Eastern Punjab Khokhars themselves claim Jat-Rajput origin. Only some of the West Punjab Khokhars claim Arab origin.
Gen. Cunningham identifies the Ghakkars with Gangaridae of Dionysius and holds them to be descendents of Yueti or Tokhari Scythians (sakas).
In Pakistan, Rajput and Jat tribes are so mixed up that it is difficult to distinguish one from the other at many places and in several cases. Some of the Rajput tribes are probably of Jat origin and vice versa. In southwest Punjab the name Jat includes a most miscellaneous congries of tribes of all sorts. Its significance tends to be occupational: to denote a body of cultivators or agriculturists. Even tribes which bear well-known Rajput names are often classified as Jats in the Punjab. Anyway, the origin of both is the same as stated earlier.
Gen. Cunningham and Maj. Todd agree in considering the Jats of Indo-Scythian stock. Maj. Todd classifies Jats as one of the great Rajput tribes. They belong to one and thesame stock.... they have been, for many centuries, so blended and so intermingled into one people that it is practically impossible to distinguish them as separate wholes. At present distinction is social rather ethnic. The same tribe Rajput in one district and Jat in another according to the position in local tribes... During census many of the Jats entered, as third heading, the name of the Rajput tribe from which they claim to have sprung.
The Jats in ancient times inhabited the whole valley of the Indus down to Sind.... They now form a most numerous as well as the most important section of the agricultural population of Punjab.
Beyond the Punjab, Jats are chiefly found in Sind where they form mass of the population.
The main (Muslim) Rajput tribes of the Punjab are: Bhatti, Punwar, Chauhan, Minhas, Tiwana, Noon, Chib, Gheba, Jodhra, Janjua, Sial and Wattu etc. While the important (Muslim) Jat tribes are: Bajwa, Chatta, Cheema, Randhawa, Ghammon, Buta, Kahlon, Gil, Sehota, Taror, Waraich, Summa, Wahla, Bhutta, Malhi, Sukhera, Alpials, Dahas, Langah, Ranghar, Meo, Awan, Khokhar, Ghakkar, etc. But some of these Rajput tribes are classified are Jats and vice versa.
Punjab has had its periods of prosperity and poverty in a regular cycle. Before the arrival of Muslims, Punjab along with the other regions/provinces of present day Pakistan was leading a separate existance from that of India, and kingdoms based in its territories or in the NWFP often ruled over most of northern India. Kushan, Saka, Bactrian and Hun Kingdoms with their capitals at Peshawar, Taxila and Sialkot respectively, ruled over large parts of northern India for centuries.
#56 Posted by SameerJB on January 13, 2001 2:11:11 pm
Pankaj #44: The cultural and social reasons for being subjugated for the longest period of time in the history of nations are same what kept up poor, backward and fragmented (Re: Why Europe and Not India). Your suggestions are true but very general. I wanted to lower the respect we (Pakistanis) have for rulers of that period. One of the way to challenge that mindset is by introducing and respecting those who opposed them. You are right about opposition not being saintly either. I believe Roosevelt said about some pro-American dictator in central America as, ``Yes he is a dog but one of ours``. The people I am talking about are not of Jinnah or Gandhi stature but they should be judged against the rulers of that time only. This is in-line with my opinion about PAkistani identity.
Sadhana # 45: Thanks for the comments. It is very easy to response such comments because I completely agree with them. It is better to have deep rooted identity than shallow one. That is one of the area I have taken great interest and this article was something along those lines.
Sadhana # 45: Thanks for the comments. It is very easy to response such comments because I completely agree with them. It is better to have deep rooted identity than shallow one. That is one of the area I have taken great interest and this article was something along those lines.
#55 Posted by dionysus on January 13, 2001 2:11:11 pm
Amir #51
Gakkar pre-Islamic Iranian descent isn`t my theory. The Gakkars themselves claim, and take great pride in, their (supposed) Kiyani Persian origins. Nearly
all Gakkars now use `Kiyani` as a last name and a means of tribal identification. Your surname indicates you yourself are from Rawalapindi and all this is common knowlege over there.
Gakkar pre-Islamic Iranian descent isn`t my theory. The Gakkars themselves claim, and take great pride in, their (supposed) Kiyani Persian origins. Nearly
all Gakkars now use `Kiyani` as a last name and a means of tribal identification. Your surname indicates you yourself are from Rawalapindi and all this is common knowlege over there.
#54 Posted by dullabhatti on January 13, 2001 1:28:39 am
Ok, here is the correct song.
Song of Lohri
Sunder mundriya …ho
Tera kaun vichara..ho
Dulla Bhatti walla…ho
Dulle ne ti viahiyi…ho
Saer Shakar payi…ho
Kudi de boje payee…ho
Shallu kaun samete…ho
Chacha galee dese…ho
Chache choori kutee…ho
Zamindaran lutee…ho
Zamindara sidaye…ho
Gin-gin pole layee…ho
Ik pola reh gaya…ho
Sipahi farh ke lei gaya…ho
Aakho mundao…taana…
Mukai da dana…
Aana lei ke jana…
Song of Lohri
Sunder mundriya …ho
Tera kaun vichara..ho
Dulla Bhatti walla…ho
Dulle ne ti viahiyi…ho
Saer Shakar payi…ho
Kudi de boje payee…ho
Shallu kaun samete…ho
Chacha galee dese…ho
Chache choori kutee…ho
Zamindaran lutee…ho
Zamindara sidaye…ho
Gin-gin pole layee…ho
Ik pola reh gaya…ho
Sipahi farh ke lei gaya…ho
Aakho mundao…taana…
Mukai da dana…
Aana lei ke jana…
#53 Posted by dullabhatti on January 13, 2001 1:28:39 am
Dost-mitar: your post was very timely. In fact today(Jan 12th) is the LohRi day. I miss those days(in 70s) when I was a young boy and we used to go to house to house asking for LohRi and singing those songs...praising the generous givers and phiTay-munhing the kanjoos types. More I think about it how much fun and activity it was for kids more I feel like being civilized is becoming equivalent to living isolated life in the four walls of your home and watching TV. Every tradition that was a sign of civilization is being named as uncivil.
Happy LohRi to all!
sundar mundriye, Ho!
Tera kaun vichara, Ho!
Dulla Bhatti wala, Ho!
Dullay dhee viahi, Ho!
sair shakkar pai, Ho!
kuRi da lal pataka, Ho!
kuRi da shaallo paTa, Ho!
.........
Happy LohRi to all!
sundar mundriye, Ho!
Tera kaun vichara, Ho!
Dulla Bhatti wala, Ho!
Dullay dhee viahi, Ho!
sair shakkar pai, Ho!
kuRi da lal pataka, Ho!
kuRi da shaallo paTa, Ho!
.........
#50 Posted by rajanjua on January 13, 2001 12:17:44 am
Dear Sameer,
Thanks for further interesting posts. I thought that both Khokhars and Gakhars were Rajputs, and that all Rajputs are supposedly descendents of the sun-god ( nauzobillah :-) ). But one of the interactors had an interesting theory about Gakhars (from Iran?). Do you know more on the movement of different clans such as Bhattis, Dogars, etc. within Pakistan, the time frame of their movements, their interactions with each other, etc. If you have the time, I would like to hear about it.
Regards,
Amir
Thanks for further interesting posts. I thought that both Khokhars and Gakhars were Rajputs, and that all Rajputs are supposedly descendents of the sun-god ( nauzobillah :-) ). But one of the interactors had an interesting theory about Gakhars (from Iran?). Do you know more on the movement of different clans such as Bhattis, Dogars, etc. within Pakistan, the time frame of their movements, their interactions with each other, etc. If you have the time, I would like to hear about it.
Regards,
Amir
#49 Posted by Prem on January 13, 2001 12:17:44 am
re: yme #48
Amen!
I have never understood this logic of foreignness. Is the traditional culture of Lucknow and Hyderabad a `foreign` culture? Is Urdu a `foreign` language? Is the Red Fort `foreign?` Most Indians (with a billion people a few oddballs will always exist in every case) would clearly say no!
So by what definition Mughals become `foreign?` They are a part of us, an integral part. Given my Lucknowi background, I, a Hindu, can not imagine my identity without seeing a part of them in me. It is a part I respect, cherish, and am proud of like any other. I do not minimize the faults if there were faults; but that does not reduce my respect for those who traversed the same land before me, and left parts of themselves for me.
I think of my history, my culture as my mother (father, for gender sensitive people). I am not blind to her evil sides. I am all too aware of her faults. And, gosh, I will do everything I can set her right (if possible!), and make sure those faults are not passed on to future generations. But I do not disown her or parts of her. And the last thing I will do is to call someone else`s mother as my own! :)
Amen!
I have never understood this logic of foreignness. Is the traditional culture of Lucknow and Hyderabad a `foreign` culture? Is Urdu a `foreign` language? Is the Red Fort `foreign?` Most Indians (with a billion people a few oddballs will always exist in every case) would clearly say no!
So by what definition Mughals become `foreign?` They are a part of us, an integral part. Given my Lucknowi background, I, a Hindu, can not imagine my identity without seeing a part of them in me. It is a part I respect, cherish, and am proud of like any other. I do not minimize the faults if there were faults; but that does not reduce my respect for those who traversed the same land before me, and left parts of themselves for me.
I think of my history, my culture as my mother (father, for gender sensitive people). I am not blind to her evil sides. I am all too aware of her faults. And, gosh, I will do everything I can set her right (if possible!), and make sure those faults are not passed on to future generations. But I do not disown her or parts of her. And the last thing I will do is to call someone else`s mother as my own! :)
#48 Posted by dionysus on January 13, 2001 12:17:44 am
YLH #35
Within the context of this article and its replies, our idea of `heroes` is those people - like Ranjit Singh, Dullah Bhatti and maybe Jasrat Gakkar - who fought to free us from foriegn slavery, not those like Asma Jahangir who would happily lead us into it.
Within the context of this article and its replies, our idea of `heroes` is those people - like Ranjit Singh, Dullah Bhatti and maybe Jasrat Gakkar - who fought to free us from foriegn slavery, not those like Asma Jahangir who would happily lead us into it.
#47 Posted by Yme on January 12, 2001 10:36:04 am
Congratulations on a very interesting and thought provoking article and all the subsequent interactions as well!!
If you will I`ll do the Jassarat of bringing forth a few concerns.One has to do with applying the term foriegner/invaders to some of the sultans/mughal kings people who had origins in the southeastern part of present day Afghanistan, an area that had been a part of Mauriya empire and has had a continuous link with the sub-continent since pre-historic times, and even though a few like mahmud can be rightly termed marauding pirates or thieves who returned to their mountain hideouts after looting; most of them eventually settled and became thoroughly assimilated.(except for converting to hinduism which is a reflection of the extreme exclusiveness of hindu heirarchical caste system which would have put converts at the low end of the totem pole.)jahangir`s mother was hindu rajput besides many other mughal princes.aurangzeb had more so called native indian /hindu(central indian) blood in him then most punjabis.If he were alive today he would be like any gentleman muslim dehlvi, pan eating,bidi smoking a connosouer of haleem and nihari perhaps.What a scoundrel though.Today they are a part of you and me for better or for worse.
Other then mohd qasim I cant think of any real life arab expeditions to the sub-continent. The only true foriegners to rule sub-continent were the British and they are the gold standard to judge what foriegner is.They came from a distant land,governed from a distance and eventually packed up and went back like aliens from a distant planet and they are not a part of you and me .My intent is not in any way to negate what you have written about jassa and others I think we need to visit them more often and more thoroughly and we all need to feel justifiably proud of them and we certainly need to get away from unnecessarily glorifying the sultans/kings of delhi,but i only take exception to calling them foriegner etc.especially in terms of recent developments in Afghanistan we need to take a closer look at our neighbour.Ive personally had the good fortune to visit Afghanistan many many times as well as Iran and many middle eastern countries as well as India and Bangladesh I can say from personal experience(and I may be biased)that people of Afghanistan especially southeastern Afghanistan are closer to us socially and culturally then any neighbouring islamic country and i found the boundries totally arbitrary.sorry for this digression
Good wishes to all.
If you will I`ll do the Jassarat of bringing forth a few concerns.One has to do with applying the term foriegner/invaders to some of the sultans/mughal kings people who had origins in the southeastern part of present day Afghanistan, an area that had been a part of Mauriya empire and has had a continuous link with the sub-continent since pre-historic times, and even though a few like mahmud can be rightly termed marauding pirates or thieves who returned to their mountain hideouts after looting; most of them eventually settled and became thoroughly assimilated.(except for converting to hinduism which is a reflection of the extreme exclusiveness of hindu heirarchical caste system which would have put converts at the low end of the totem pole.)jahangir`s mother was hindu rajput besides many other mughal princes.aurangzeb had more so called native indian /hindu(central indian) blood in him then most punjabis.If he were alive today he would be like any gentleman muslim dehlvi, pan eating,bidi smoking a connosouer of haleem and nihari perhaps.What a scoundrel though.Today they are a part of you and me for better or for worse.
Other then mohd qasim I cant think of any real life arab expeditions to the sub-continent. The only true foriegners to rule sub-continent were the British and they are the gold standard to judge what foriegner is.They came from a distant land,governed from a distance and eventually packed up and went back like aliens from a distant planet and they are not a part of you and me .My intent is not in any way to negate what you have written about jassa and others I think we need to visit them more often and more thoroughly and we all need to feel justifiably proud of them and we certainly need to get away from unnecessarily glorifying the sultans/kings of delhi,but i only take exception to calling them foriegner etc.especially in terms of recent developments in Afghanistan we need to take a closer look at our neighbour.Ive personally had the good fortune to visit Afghanistan many many times as well as Iran and many middle eastern countries as well as India and Bangladesh I can say from personal experience(and I may be biased)that people of Afghanistan especially southeastern Afghanistan are closer to us socially and culturally then any neighbouring islamic country and i found the boundries totally arbitrary.sorry for this digression
Good wishes to all.
#46 Posted by Urstruly on January 12, 2001 8:04:32 am
SameerJB # 46
Your logic perplexes me. The people you are listing as heroes are as controversial as any other, especially, the ``invaders``. What is the criteria then to authenticate one`s heroship; Or is it a personal preference. In other words those people who represent our point of view are heroes. If this is the logic then why you are not ready to give everyone an equal right to chose. I think your efforts to create paper tigers and maligning those whose heroship is revered even after centuries have gone by, is a useless effort.
Your logic perplexes me. The people you are listing as heroes are as controversial as any other, especially, the ``invaders``. What is the criteria then to authenticate one`s heroship; Or is it a personal preference. In other words those people who represent our point of view are heroes. If this is the logic then why you are not ready to give everyone an equal right to chose. I think your efforts to create paper tigers and maligning those whose heroship is revered even after centuries have gone by, is a useless effort.
#45 Posted by SameerJB on January 11, 2001 1:13:47 pm
Zakkk: Khushal Khan Khattack is a first class hero. His name should be alongwith people like Dulla Bhatti. To me, honestly, Khan A Ghaffar Khan and G. M. Syed are also heroes. It is not that one should agree partially or completely with the views of our great leaders (heroes); the purpose to make their works a national tresure has far greater positive implications for a society which is marred with push-n-pull behavior. Contrary to popular belief, the ideological boundaries would strengthen by including, recognizing and taking pride in such people.
Only rajanjua has, on few ocassions, mentioned Khushak Khan Khattack`s work. More people should know about him and nation must pay tribute to him by properly honoring-by popularizing him and his writings, by naming at least Peshawar University or some big institution after him.
Just think about all the factories Nawaz Sharif family had. Not one of them was named after any native hero-Ittefaq, Brother, Hudaybia etc. Lyallpur is full of industries but none is called Dulla (most famous native son) Textiile Mills. They are Koh-i-Noor, Sitara and many starting with Al-
We still have Abbotabad and Jacobabad waiting for King Fahd and Zaid Bin Sultan Al-Nahyan to go-just guessing.
Only rajanjua has, on few ocassions, mentioned Khushak Khan Khattack`s work. More people should know about him and nation must pay tribute to him by properly honoring-by popularizing him and his writings, by naming at least Peshawar University or some big institution after him.
Just think about all the factories Nawaz Sharif family had. Not one of them was named after any native hero-Ittefaq, Brother, Hudaybia etc. Lyallpur is full of industries but none is called Dulla (most famous native son) Textiile Mills. They are Koh-i-Noor, Sitara and many starting with Al-
We still have Abbotabad and Jacobabad waiting for King Fahd and Zaid Bin Sultan Al-Nahyan to go-just guessing.
#44 Posted by sadna on January 11, 2001 11:12:05 am
Sameer,
Thanks for a praiseworthy effort to bring out the finer details of history in this atmosphere of grand narratives and oversimplicification.
Ideally the histories of Turks/Afghans/Mughals/whatever Hindu caste/subcaste caste/the British and their various actions ought to be all be integrated fully in our historical consciousness without rancor, with full understanding of their actions and without needing being classified as either heros or villians.
History and historical figures should be evaluated keeping in mind that the modern times require living amicably in stable multicultural societes, (though IMO, India and Pakistan cannot yet be called modern societies) while there was no such imperative in the past.
If no famous figure/group from the past can fulfil 100%, a critical evaluation according to modern standards, well so be it. Lets show mature detachment and understanding without fudging facts and hope our descendents will do the same for us.
Sadhana
#8 #13
Aye
#43 Posted by Pankaj on January 11, 2001 1:07:47 am
Dear Sameer
Here I come from a brief vacation and find your article on the board. I liked the freshness of the topic. If I correctly understand, the central theme of your article was an appreciation of the native/local mass resistence against the tyranny of the rulers. Well, from my reading of the history, I gather that despite such uprisings, the frequency and the scale of mass uprisings against the ruler class had been low in the subcontinent than in some other parts of the world, notably the west. Even the grand uprising of 1857 did not enjoy the wide popular support it should have apart from some parts of Northern India. Some reasons that come to my mind are as folows:
1. Culture: People of the subcontinent have a fatalistic attitude. They accept the poverty, death, misery with a certain attitude of resignation. A western traveller was appaled at this attitude of the people here. The driving force to control the happenings of the outside world to their benefit, in other words, the wish to control the environment is invisible. The glorification of sufferings as a way of God for testing us, and a belief that it is fate of a person that ultmately dominates his efforts, is the result of this fatalistic attitude. There is a deeply ingrained belief that the true happiness comes from ``interior``, by satisfaction in whatever little one has. The people of subcontinent have accepted misery as being in their fate. And surprisingly, a large majority of them are satisfied with their miserably present.
You might have heard of a famous adage in rural areas of India, ``Kou nripa hoi, hamen ka haani`` ie ``What have we to lose, whoever is the ruler``
Little wonder the drive to protest against the injustice of the ruling class was absent from our societies.
2.Social: The society of subcontinent was always divided into innumerable small factions whose interests or rather ``perceived interests`` were not in agreement with each other on many issues. These rival factions headed by chieftains were more than willing to side with the strong central rule to gain some favor and achieve an edge over the rivals in their own power struggles. The peasant class and other suffering groups were unable to protest against these local chieftains, partly due to the inertia of a fatalistic attitude and partly due to the absence of resources and a visionary leader to consolidate their efforts. Many of the uprisings that we hear of were in fact a power struggle of these petty chieftains. They lacked the nature of a people`s struggle and were devoid of a vision for improving the people`s plight.
Sincerely
Here I come from a brief vacation and find your article on the board. I liked the freshness of the topic. If I correctly understand, the central theme of your article was an appreciation of the native/local mass resistence against the tyranny of the rulers. Well, from my reading of the history, I gather that despite such uprisings, the frequency and the scale of mass uprisings against the ruler class had been low in the subcontinent than in some other parts of the world, notably the west. Even the grand uprising of 1857 did not enjoy the wide popular support it should have apart from some parts of Northern India. Some reasons that come to my mind are as folows:
1. Culture: People of the subcontinent have a fatalistic attitude. They accept the poverty, death, misery with a certain attitude of resignation. A western traveller was appaled at this attitude of the people here. The driving force to control the happenings of the outside world to their benefit, in other words, the wish to control the environment is invisible. The glorification of sufferings as a way of God for testing us, and a belief that it is fate of a person that ultmately dominates his efforts, is the result of this fatalistic attitude. There is a deeply ingrained belief that the true happiness comes from ``interior``, by satisfaction in whatever little one has. The people of subcontinent have accepted misery as being in their fate. And surprisingly, a large majority of them are satisfied with their miserably present.
You might have heard of a famous adage in rural areas of India, ``Kou nripa hoi, hamen ka haani`` ie ``What have we to lose, whoever is the ruler``
Little wonder the drive to protest against the injustice of the ruling class was absent from our societies.
2.Social: The society of subcontinent was always divided into innumerable small factions whose interests or rather ``perceived interests`` were not in agreement with each other on many issues. These rival factions headed by chieftains were more than willing to side with the strong central rule to gain some favor and achieve an edge over the rivals in their own power struggles. The peasant class and other suffering groups were unable to protest against these local chieftains, partly due to the inertia of a fatalistic attitude and partly due to the absence of resources and a visionary leader to consolidate their efforts. Many of the uprisings that we hear of were in fact a power struggle of these petty chieftains. They lacked the nature of a people`s struggle and were devoid of a vision for improving the people`s plight.
Sincerely
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