Sameer January 6, 2001
#17 Posted by SameerJB on January 7, 2001 5:45:52 pm
Dionysus: Having read your previous interacts, I would be damned if I do not take your post seriously. This is exactly the kind I hoped for feedback for better understanding.
I will still be interested in knowing more before making a permanent image (good or bad) of Jasrat on my mind. I think without loot and plunder, he would not have survived. The governments can collect revenue from taxation but a rebel, a gorilla leader hiding in mountains for years? How would a person can provide food, shelter and arms for more than 10,000 people on the run?
The founder of Syed Sultanate was Syed Khizar Khan son of a wealthy person Syed Malik Sulaiman. Syed Khizar Khan was third generation of Turkish (or Afghan?) immigrants. He was born and raised in Multan, became subedar of Multan, sided with Timur in his invasion and rewarded the governorship of Lahore and Multan. He ruled in the name of Timur and later his son Shah Rukh until he captured Delhi from another Afghan Daulat khan who briefly occupied Delhi at the end of Tughlaq dynasty. You are right about him being a Punjabi? by birth and the only Sultanate started by a person born in sub-continent. However, most history book clearly state Sultanates to be essentially Turkish with two interludes of Afghans, Lodhis being the one and Syed or Daulat Khan being the other.
Khokhar/ Gakhar: I am not sure which arabic book of history you are referring to-might be Al-Beruni`s accounts of earlier history. Most of the books are actually in Persian and should have no problem with ``Kh or G``. Farishta, S. M. Habib and M. Habib call them Gakhars while others, particularly Indians call them Khokhars. The Hindu/ Sikh historian rely on the presence of large number of Khokhars on both side of river Jhelum from Mianwali to Jhang. They are further sub-divided into eight clans. Another source, they rely is very old, accounts of Panini who refers to people on the west and east sides of river Sindh as Parashkara and Karaskara respectively. Indian historians think Karaskara are Khokhars. There might be added dimention of Jat-Rajput here. Rajputs are generally more appreciated by Indian historian which may have something to do with connotation of Rajput with Hindus. I think Gakhar are Jats and Khokhar Rajputs, though I am not sure. It is also possible that the term Khokhar refers to the people of Karaskara (on both sides of river Jhelum), irrespective of their tribes because neither Gakhar nor Khokhar, at present, are numerous enough to cause so much trouble for Ghaznavi to Babar.
Thanks again for your reply.
I will still be interested in knowing more before making a permanent image (good or bad) of Jasrat on my mind. I think without loot and plunder, he would not have survived. The governments can collect revenue from taxation but a rebel, a gorilla leader hiding in mountains for years? How would a person can provide food, shelter and arms for more than 10,000 people on the run?
The founder of Syed Sultanate was Syed Khizar Khan son of a wealthy person Syed Malik Sulaiman. Syed Khizar Khan was third generation of Turkish (or Afghan?) immigrants. He was born and raised in Multan, became subedar of Multan, sided with Timur in his invasion and rewarded the governorship of Lahore and Multan. He ruled in the name of Timur and later his son Shah Rukh until he captured Delhi from another Afghan Daulat khan who briefly occupied Delhi at the end of Tughlaq dynasty. You are right about him being a Punjabi? by birth and the only Sultanate started by a person born in sub-continent. However, most history book clearly state Sultanates to be essentially Turkish with two interludes of Afghans, Lodhis being the one and Syed or Daulat Khan being the other.
Khokhar/ Gakhar: I am not sure which arabic book of history you are referring to-might be Al-Beruni`s accounts of earlier history. Most of the books are actually in Persian and should have no problem with ``Kh or G``. Farishta, S. M. Habib and M. Habib call them Gakhars while others, particularly Indians call them Khokhars. The Hindu/ Sikh historian rely on the presence of large number of Khokhars on both side of river Jhelum from Mianwali to Jhang. They are further sub-divided into eight clans. Another source, they rely is very old, accounts of Panini who refers to people on the west and east sides of river Sindh as Parashkara and Karaskara respectively. Indian historians think Karaskara are Khokhars. There might be added dimention of Jat-Rajput here. Rajputs are generally more appreciated by Indian historian which may have something to do with connotation of Rajput with Hindus. I think Gakhar are Jats and Khokhar Rajputs, though I am not sure. It is also possible that the term Khokhar refers to the people of Karaskara (on both sides of river Jhelum), irrespective of their tribes because neither Gakhar nor Khokhar, at present, are numerous enough to cause so much trouble for Ghaznavi to Babar.
Thanks again for your reply.
#18 Posted by Urstruly on January 7, 2001 9:53:23 pm
Sameer
My last post was based on memory. I do not have any family book in my possession here. However, the family books elaborate all the events related to Sultans of Delhi and Mughal Emperors and history before that. Most of the literature is in Persian and some in Arabic; very little has been done to translate it. One of my cousin is knee deep into history and he tries to translate whatever he can. Therefore,personally, I wont be able to contribute much (with proper references).
According to history (our) the Khokhars are Sooraj Bansi Rajputs who are said to be the descendents of Brahma Sooraj Bansi-the Sun god. Whereas Gakhars, who are also a ``cousin-clan`` are said to be the descendents of a lesser god. As one interactor said that Khokhars looked down upon Gakhars; that is one of the reasons. (This is also one main reason that the pre-Islamic history is nothing but utter shame for us; and I am always reluctant to associate myself with all so-called heroes and rajas of pre-Islamic dark ages).
Traditionaly, Khokhars inhabited the plains East of River Jehlum whereas Gakhars inhabited West of river-the Potohar Platue. Khokhars refer to Gakhars as `Pahariayay` which is equivalent to a slur.
My last post was based on memory. I do not have any family book in my possession here. However, the family books elaborate all the events related to Sultans of Delhi and Mughal Emperors and history before that. Most of the literature is in Persian and some in Arabic; very little has been done to translate it. One of my cousin is knee deep into history and he tries to translate whatever he can. Therefore,personally, I wont be able to contribute much (with proper references).
According to history (our) the Khokhars are Sooraj Bansi Rajputs who are said to be the descendents of Brahma Sooraj Bansi-the Sun god. Whereas Gakhars, who are also a ``cousin-clan`` are said to be the descendents of a lesser god. As one interactor said that Khokhars looked down upon Gakhars; that is one of the reasons. (This is also one main reason that the pre-Islamic history is nothing but utter shame for us; and I am always reluctant to associate myself with all so-called heroes and rajas of pre-Islamic dark ages).
Traditionaly, Khokhars inhabited the plains East of River Jehlum whereas Gakhars inhabited West of river-the Potohar Platue. Khokhars refer to Gakhars as `Pahariayay` which is equivalent to a slur.
#19 Posted by SameerJB on January 8, 2001 12:44:20 am
Dionysus: I was wrong when I said that no place is named after Jasrat. There are several villages in district Sargodha with names like Jasrat, Jassowal, Jassopura etc. I also checked the names starting with Khokhar and Gakhar. They are all over the place. Gakhar- in Rawalpindi, Sialkot, Bahawalnagar etc. while Khokhar- also in Rawalpindi, Sialkot but many of them in district Sargodha also.
Great link for those wishing to locate their town/ village down to longitude, latitude, current weather conditions, weather forcast etc.
http://www.calle.com/world/pakistan/
just pick the first two letters from the list, e.g., Ga, Kh or Ja
Great link for those wishing to locate their town/ village down to longitude, latitude, current weather conditions, weather forcast etc.
http://www.calle.com/world/pakistan/
just pick the first two letters from the list, e.g., Ga, Kh or Ja
#21 Posted by scout on January 8, 2001 12:44:20 am
`` He is considered one of the leading gorilla leader of the fifteenth century.....``
Damn, you turned the poor guy into a hairy ape. :) Do you mean guerrilla by any chance?
I`m not a fan of old world history or folklore, so I could not fully appreciate your article. The paragraphs that I read were the first two, and the last. Pretty good.
Damn, you turned the poor guy into a hairy ape. :) Do you mean guerrilla by any chance?
I`m not a fan of old world history or folklore, so I could not fully appreciate your article. The paragraphs that I read were the first two, and the last. Pretty good.
#22 Posted by sac on January 8, 2001 12:44:20 am
Sameer:
Thanks for an interesting read.
hamidm:
If the chowk folks don`t give you a more permanent role, maybe you can entertain us in the interactions a little more actively. BTW how many days do you think the hapless CE has left?
later
-sac
Thanks for an interesting read.
hamidm:
If the chowk folks don`t give you a more permanent role, maybe you can entertain us in the interactions a little more actively. BTW how many days do you think the hapless CE has left?
later
-sac
#23 Posted by Humsab on January 8, 2001 2:56:39 am
Reply # 12 and 13
A separate Column by One and Only One hamidm!
AYE
A separate Column by One and Only One hamidm!
AYE
#24 Posted by dullabhatti on January 8, 2001 2:56:39 am
Very intersting read. I had bumped into Jasrat`s name in pre-sikh history of Punjab but not with much detail. This will certainly make me more curious about that era of our history in future.
Another Jassa who chased Afghan warlord Ahmad Shah Abdali in the plains of Punajb in 1762 and afterwards was from village Ahlluwaal of Lahore district. His fore fathers were kalals(wine makers and sellers, so much for wine being gora influence on us:-)), hence he is also refered as Jassa Singh Kalal but after he freed about 2200 Hindu women from Abdali`s captivity when Abdali was returning home after paying his yearly visit to Delhi, Jassa was named Sardar Jassa Singh Ahlluwalia(Ahluwalia). He was also declared King of lahore for few days by his comrades. but his glory was standing up to Afghans. this was long before when Ranjit singh was not even born.
Sameer, finding our roots and role models in local history is what makes people proud and have the courage to stand up to tyranny of the rulers, their own and foreigners. I will share a story with you how much dulla bhatti is revered by Punjabis particularly and ironically by Indian Punjabis. East Punjab witnessed a very strong Marxist/Nexalite movement in the 60s and 70s. Communist workers used to go to every village and city and motivate people for revolution, laal inqlab, they used to call it. I was born in late 60s so don`t rememeber any of it only heard and read about it. Gursharan Singh is a leading play writer and performer who has his own group of people which to this day perform some of his inqlabi plays on stages. I attened one of these called (nagaara something..) in mid 80`s. It was based upon Dulla Bhatti`s story. The characters of Jaimal, maaN Ladhi and dulla etc were so native that in audience entirely made of Sikhs and Hindus only, I don`t think anyone even thought for a moment that Dulla was a rajput muslim. Gursharan Singh mentioned that he considers Dulla Bhatti the first real revolutinery of Pujnab from working peasant class.
I was also told that this play was very popular during Nexalite movement days and lot of those Punjabi comrades took inspiration from it.
and thus Abdulla lives on in Punjab. It is not uncommon to hear ``Dullay di waar`` from Punjabi farmers ploughing their fields in the early mornings along with Puran Bhagat and MaaN IshraN`s marsiyas.
Another Jassa who chased Afghan warlord Ahmad Shah Abdali in the plains of Punajb in 1762 and afterwards was from village Ahlluwaal of Lahore district. His fore fathers were kalals(wine makers and sellers, so much for wine being gora influence on us:-)), hence he is also refered as Jassa Singh Kalal but after he freed about 2200 Hindu women from Abdali`s captivity when Abdali was returning home after paying his yearly visit to Delhi, Jassa was named Sardar Jassa Singh Ahlluwalia(Ahluwalia). He was also declared King of lahore for few days by his comrades. but his glory was standing up to Afghans. this was long before when Ranjit singh was not even born.
Sameer, finding our roots and role models in local history is what makes people proud and have the courage to stand up to tyranny of the rulers, their own and foreigners. I will share a story with you how much dulla bhatti is revered by Punjabis particularly and ironically by Indian Punjabis. East Punjab witnessed a very strong Marxist/Nexalite movement in the 60s and 70s. Communist workers used to go to every village and city and motivate people for revolution, laal inqlab, they used to call it. I was born in late 60s so don`t rememeber any of it only heard and read about it. Gursharan Singh is a leading play writer and performer who has his own group of people which to this day perform some of his inqlabi plays on stages. I attened one of these called (nagaara something..) in mid 80`s. It was based upon Dulla Bhatti`s story. The characters of Jaimal, maaN Ladhi and dulla etc were so native that in audience entirely made of Sikhs and Hindus only, I don`t think anyone even thought for a moment that Dulla was a rajput muslim. Gursharan Singh mentioned that he considers Dulla Bhatti the first real revolutinery of Pujnab from working peasant class.
I was also told that this play was very popular during Nexalite movement days and lot of those Punjabi comrades took inspiration from it.
and thus Abdulla lives on in Punjab. It is not uncommon to hear ``Dullay di waar`` from Punjabi farmers ploughing their fields in the early mornings along with Puran Bhagat and MaaN IshraN`s marsiyas.
#25 Posted by amit on January 8, 2001 4:06:29 am
Sameer, thanks for a very interesting article. The reality is that the muslim rulers at Delhi always looked down upon South Asian muslims. During the Sultanate times, Central Asians, Turks etc. were the elite that ruled the subcontinent, while desi hindus and muslims barely got the crumbs. The Mughals initially had a very low opinion about all desis, irrespective of religion. In Babarnama, Babar repeatedly refers to everyone east of Kabul as Hindustanis !! This is in spite of the fact that the area of Afghanistan and Pakistan had long converted to Islam. Moreover, Babar considered desis to be really ugly people and writes very derogatory stuff about the physical characterisitics of desis. Of course, in the later years, Mughal rulers were almost secular in nature, when they included everyone including hindus in the administration.
Your point about the survival of the fittest leading to conversions is well taken. However, I think that there were three factors that played a key role. First was definitely the socio-economic opportunities in coverting to the ruler`s religion. Second was the strength of hinduism in a particular region. Hinduism was very strong in the Indo-gangetic plains, while it was relatively weak in Pakistan and Bangladesh areas, which had seen the rise of Buddhism earlier. Hence the Sufis were able to make a lot of inroads in these places with their message. Third was the extent of coercion on the people. The muslim rulers at Delhi were not very coercive about forcing their religion. However, the Afghans in Afghanistan were particularly brutal towards Pakistan. They would raid every other year and commit enormous loot, plunder and violence. This added tremendous pressure on the local people to convert.
Why did the muslim rulers in Delhi stay away from spreading Islam ? I believe the answer lies in one word - racism. They looked down on desis. If everyone converted to Islam, they would ask for equality based on the faith. This was something that the muslim rulers were not willing to grant. Also it was easy to rule socially fragmented hindus as compared to an all muslim India. I hope that there is more study and research in this area, as we learn to undo some of the myths prevalant in both India and Pakistan.
Your point about the survival of the fittest leading to conversions is well taken. However, I think that there were three factors that played a key role. First was definitely the socio-economic opportunities in coverting to the ruler`s religion. Second was the strength of hinduism in a particular region. Hinduism was very strong in the Indo-gangetic plains, while it was relatively weak in Pakistan and Bangladesh areas, which had seen the rise of Buddhism earlier. Hence the Sufis were able to make a lot of inroads in these places with their message. Third was the extent of coercion on the people. The muslim rulers at Delhi were not very coercive about forcing their religion. However, the Afghans in Afghanistan were particularly brutal towards Pakistan. They would raid every other year and commit enormous loot, plunder and violence. This added tremendous pressure on the local people to convert.
Why did the muslim rulers in Delhi stay away from spreading Islam ? I believe the answer lies in one word - racism. They looked down on desis. If everyone converted to Islam, they would ask for equality based on the faith. This was something that the muslim rulers were not willing to grant. Also it was easy to rule socially fragmented hindus as compared to an all muslim India. I hope that there is more study and research in this area, as we learn to undo some of the myths prevalant in both India and Pakistan.
#26 Posted by Harpreet on January 8, 2001 4:26:05 am
Sameer-ji,
You have written one of the best articles I have ever read on Chowk.
I will post fully at a later time because at present I am busy, but thank you for illuminating the path again with your wisdom.....
regards
Harpreet
You have written one of the best articles I have ever read on Chowk.
I will post fully at a later time because at present I am busy, but thank you for illuminating the path again with your wisdom.....
regards
Harpreet
#27 Posted by ylh on January 8, 2001 11:09:25 am
This is the demise of real true intellectual discourse, not the article because it an ok article but because certain interactors have chosen to classify an emotional article based on folklore more than Historical fact to be the best article of Chowk.
Kindly review my post no 3 and then Dinoysus`s post.
Thankyou
Kindly review my post no 3 and then Dinoysus`s post.
Thankyou
#28 Posted by dionysus on January 8, 2001 12:43:24 pm
Re:#18
Sameer,
You provide some interesting information about the Syed dynasty`s putative origins. I`m not in a position to argue with you about that, but what I can say is that the Turko-Afghans regarded them as Punjabis. The family retained considerable influence well into Mughal rule and had a strong following among the native Sheikh/Syed faction in the Mughal court. And even after they`d been living in Hindustan for more than a century the Sheikh/Syed faction still refered to them as Punjabis.
Indian historians expend an enormous amount of energy revising South Asia`s history to suit their country`s purposes. It goes without saying that we don`t need them to teach us about our own country, it`s people and their histories. We really don`t need to take any notice of their c0ck and bull stories except to refute them, of course.
Sameer and URstruly (Re#19)
Regarding the Gakkars, they are neither Jatts nor Rajputs, though they have claimed to be both at various times in the past. These days they are once again claiming Persian descent and there may be some truth to this claim. It is most likely, however, that they are of pre-Islamic Iranian descent because they were certainly in control of the Potohar plateau when the first Muslims arrived in Punjab and they certainly followed some non-Brahminical version of Hinduism or Buddhism.
Regarding the fact that Khokhars look down on Gakkars. I think this is mostly a Central Punjab and Potohar thing and nothing to do with lesser gods. Certainly, no Punjabi tribe, except the Bhattis, fits into this Suraj bansi and Chaand bansi business. Khokhar connections to all this are very tenuous indeed. And let`s not forget that Khokhars for the most part live in areas that are controlled by Jatts, while the Gakkars rule the roost in Rawalpindi.
Sameer,
You provide some interesting information about the Syed dynasty`s putative origins. I`m not in a position to argue with you about that, but what I can say is that the Turko-Afghans regarded them as Punjabis. The family retained considerable influence well into Mughal rule and had a strong following among the native Sheikh/Syed faction in the Mughal court. And even after they`d been living in Hindustan for more than a century the Sheikh/Syed faction still refered to them as Punjabis.
Indian historians expend an enormous amount of energy revising South Asia`s history to suit their country`s purposes. It goes without saying that we don`t need them to teach us about our own country, it`s people and their histories. We really don`t need to take any notice of their c0ck and bull stories except to refute them, of course.
Sameer and URstruly (Re#19)
Regarding the Gakkars, they are neither Jatts nor Rajputs, though they have claimed to be both at various times in the past. These days they are once again claiming Persian descent and there may be some truth to this claim. It is most likely, however, that they are of pre-Islamic Iranian descent because they were certainly in control of the Potohar plateau when the first Muslims arrived in Punjab and they certainly followed some non-Brahminical version of Hinduism or Buddhism.
Regarding the fact that Khokhars look down on Gakkars. I think this is mostly a Central Punjab and Potohar thing and nothing to do with lesser gods. Certainly, no Punjabi tribe, except the Bhattis, fits into this Suraj bansi and Chaand bansi business. Khokhar connections to all this are very tenuous indeed. And let`s not forget that Khokhars for the most part live in areas that are controlled by Jatts, while the Gakkars rule the roost in Rawalpindi.
#29 Posted by Harpreet on January 8, 2001 2:50:30 pm
ylh #28,
ha ha ha
I bow down to your superior ``intellectual debate``.
For you truly are the greatest sage there is.
The font of all knowledge.
The arbiter of all that is true and righteous.
In the future, nothing should be published on Chowk that does not first of all pass your rigourous scrutiny and approval.
For who else better to judge these things than you?
regards
Harpreet
#30 Posted by Pardesi on January 8, 2001 8:28:05 pm
Sameer,
Very informative article. Please keep writing about our common roots and history.
Also thanks for the link to the map. I could locate all the towns my relatives always talked about.
Dulla Bhatti #25 ``The characters of Jaimal, maaN Ladhi and dulla etc were so native .. ``
One of my closest relative is named Jaimal Singh. Never knew it was after some famous Muslim Punjabi hero. Does any one know more about him? I would appreciate knowing it.
Regards.
Very informative article. Please keep writing about our common roots and history.
Also thanks for the link to the map. I could locate all the towns my relatives always talked about.
Dulla Bhatti #25 ``The characters of Jaimal, maaN Ladhi and dulla etc were so native .. ``
One of my closest relative is named Jaimal Singh. Never knew it was after some famous Muslim Punjabi hero. Does any one know more about him? I would appreciate knowing it.
Regards.
#31 Posted by Zahra on January 9, 2001 1:45:53 am
dost-mittar:
If I were you, I won`t ever like to reclaim anything from that well. Somehow, I have a feeling that you dropped the ball intentionally after reading or hearing the story. That wasn`t fair!
Take Care,
If I were you, I won`t ever like to reclaim anything from that well. Somehow, I have a feeling that you dropped the ball intentionally after reading or hearing the story. That wasn`t fair!
Take Care,
#32 Posted by socializer on January 9, 2001 10:08:20 am
I have only one objection, expressing Assma Jihangir as HERO!!!!!!!!!!!!
There is a need for u should redefine ur standards.
There is a need for u should redefine ur standards.
#33 Posted by socializer on January 9, 2001 10:08:20 am
I have only one objection, expressing Assma Jihangir as HERO!!!!!!!!!!!!
There is a need for u should redefine ur standards.
There is a need for u should redefine ur standards.
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